Post/Author/DateTime	Post
koiulpoi 05-26-07, 08:33 PM	Hello all! This is Koiu Lpoi, a bit of a newbie to these boards, but not to the game! I'm coming at you here with a new base class, the Iaidoka, literally "Practitioner of Iaido". It is based off the real-life sword style of Iai, but with a focus much more on the fantastical side of it that anime and Japanese popular culture have created. Rather than focus on mental wholeness, this class focuses on the power seen by certain characters that are capable of drawing their sword, striking, and returning it to the sheath in a blink of an eye. This style can be seen in many videogames, such as Hibiki from The Last Blade, Johnny from Guilty Gear X, Vergil from Devil May Cry, and even Link's Mortal Draw from Twilight Princess. So, without further ado, may I present my first base class, IAIDOKA Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Nukitsuke Strike 1d6, Iai 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Delay the Slash, Fast Movement 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Nukitsuke Strike 2d6, Charge the Slash (fullround) 4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Distance Slash, Gazing at the Mountain 5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Nukitsuke Strike 3d6, Hold the Slash 1/day 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Noto 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Nukitsuke Strike 4d6 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Hold the Slash 2/day, Fast Movement 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Nukitsuke Strike 5d6, Blinding Slash 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Charge the Slash (standard) 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Nukitsuke Strike 6d6, Hold the Slash 3/day 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 The Deepest Cut 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Nukitsuke Strike 7d6, Transfer the Slash 1/day 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Hold the Slash 4/day, Fast Movement 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Nukitsuke Strike 8d6, Spirit of Victory 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Impossible Cleave 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Nukitsuke Strike 9d6, Hold the Slash 5/day 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Charge the Slash (move), No Fear Feint 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Nukitsuke Strike 10d6, Transfer the Slash 2/day 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 A Thousand Cuts, Hold the Slash 6/day, Impossible Cleave Game Rule Information Abilities: Strength is important to the Iaidoka, as it improves their melee attack and damage rolls. A high Wisdom is recommended, as it powers many of his class skills. A high Constitution is recommended to offset the low hit die. Dexterity may be useful, as he cannot wear heavy armor. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8 Class Skills The Iaidoka's class skills (and linked attributes are): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Con), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Iaidoka is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the Katana and Wakizashi. He is proficient with light and medium armor, but not shields. Nukitsuke Strike (Ex) - When an Iaidoka makes a melee attack immediately after drawing a weapon , he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. This damage improves every odd level. This damage is considered precision damage, and is thus not multiplied on critical hits, nor is not effective on creatures immune to critical hits. Iai (Ex) - At first level the Iaidoka begins his path of specific forms of sheathing and drawing his weapon. He is treated as having the quick draw feat. In addition, this allows him to use the Weapon Finesse feat with the katana, if he possesses it. Delay the Slash (Su) - A third level Iaidoka can, when using a Nukitsuke Strike, choose to not deal damage immediately. When using this ability, the damage does not immediately come into effect. Instead, it is delayed until the Iaidoka sheathes his sword, at which point the full damage of the attack comes into effect. Delay the Slash can delay the damage of one attack per round, delaying all damage, including damage from other sources, such as a flaming weapon. This cannot be combined with Distance Slash. Delay the Slash is usable once per round. Fast Movement (Ex) - At 2nd, 8th, and 14th level, the Iaidoka's base land speed increases by 10 feet, but only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. This is an untyped bonus, and works the same as the Barbarian class feature of the same name. Charge the Slash (Ex) - The Iaidoka can spend time to center himself, recollecting the world around him. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but his sword must be sheathed during this time. Upon his next attack within one round, he deals double the normal amount of Nukitsuke Strike dice. This is usable as a full round action at level 3, and changes to a standard action at level 10, and a move action at 18. Distance Slash (Su) - As a standard action, an Iaidoka can strike using the power of his concentrated Ki. The Iaidoka makes a concentration check, DC 10. If successful, he may make a single melee attack with an additional five feet of reach, dealing only Nukitsuke Strike dice. An additional five feet is added for every 10 points for which the check exceeds the DC. This ability is usable once per day at 4th level, and is usable an additional time per day every four levels after that. He must designate the target of this ability before the check is rolled, and the use is wasted if the result would not let him hit his target. Gazing at the Mountain (Ex) - The Iaidoka may now sheathe his blade without provoking attacks of opportunity. In addition, he may now choose to sheathe his sword at any time by using an immediate action. Hold the Slash (Su) - When an Iaidoka uses Delay the Slash, he can choose to have his target held in wracking pain and anticipation of his coming doom. The target is held as the spell Hold Monster, DC 10 + 1/2 your Iaidoka level (round down) + your Wisdom modifier. This effect ends when the target makes his will save, or when the delayed damage is dealt. The target making his will save does not dismiss the delayed damage. Hold the Slash is usable once per day at 5th level, and an additional time every three levels after that. Noto (Ex) - At sixth level, the Iaidoka has mastered the art of Noto. He is considered to be threatening squares around him even when his weapon is sheathed. He can draw and strike during Attacks of Opportunity. Blinding Slash (Ex) - You may choose to aim directly for an opponent's eyes. When making an attack with Nukitsuke strike, you may choose to make it a blinding slash instead. This melee attack does full damage (including Nukitsuke Strike dice), but it suffers a -2 penalty to hit. If the attack hits, the target makes a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Iaidoka level (round down) + your Wisdom modifier) or it is blinded as the spell Blindness/Deafness. The Deepest Cut (Ex) - If an Iaidoka hits with the Nukitsuke strike on the full attack action, he may choose to forgo any other attacks he would make that round and instead attack again with the same attack bonus and damage roll. If this second attack hits, the new damage is simply added to the first - it is not considered a seperate source for purposes such as damage reduction. This damage may be held with Delay the Slash. Transfer the Slash (Su) - Upon sheathing his sword to complete Delay the Slash, the Iaidoka can choose to have the damage affect another creature. The new target must be within 15 feet of the old, and the Iaidoka must have line of effect to it. The new target is entitled to a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Iaidoka level (round down) + your Wisdom modifier) for half damage, in which case the original target also takes half damage. This is usable once per day at 13th level, and an additional time per day at 19th. Spirit of Victory (Ex) - When attacking as a standard action (using the attack action), the Iaidoka may make a second strike at -5 Base Attack from the first. If both attacks hit, the damage is added together as if only one strike was made. This attack may be combined with Spring Attack, but not Distance Slash. Impossible Cleave (Su) - If the damage dealt after releasing a "Delay the Slash" kills a creature, you may make a melee attack at any creature within 5 feet of the dead creature, at the same attack bonus and damage used to kill the last creature. This attack may be made even if you are not within melee range of the new target. This ability may be used three times per day. At 20th level, the range increases to 10 feet. No Fear Feint (Su) - As a full round action, the Iaidoka can make a massive strike to the opponent. He draws his sword and makes a single attack at his full base attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Iaidoka level(round down) + your Wisdom modifier) or be instantly slain. The target's body splits and then fades away, leaving no remains. The target can only be brought back to life by the most powerful of spells, such as True Resurrection. This can be combined with Delay the Slash and Hold the Slash for cinematic effect. Even if the target succeeds at the save, he still takes damage as from a single sword strike, including Nukitsuke dice. On the roll of a critical hit, add four to the save DC, and double the weapon damage for a successful save. No Fear Feint is usable once per day. A Thousand Cuts (Ex) - Wheen using The Deepest Cut, an Iaidoka may continue to make strikes at a successive -2 modifier until he misses. For example, if the Iaidoka hits with his first and second attacks at a base attack of 20, he may try again at 18. If that hits, he may try again at 16. This continues until the Iaidoka misses a strike. Ex-Iaidoka Iaidoka may multiclass freely. New Feats Strike Without Mind You rely more on intuition and training to guide your strikes, not brute strength. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1, Wis 13. Benefit: You may use your wisdom modifier in place of your strength when making melee attack rolls with any light or one-handed melee weapon, including the Katana. Normal: You use your strength modifier for all melee attack rolls.
koiulpoi 05-27-07, 02:17 PM	FAQ Q: OMG BBQ WTF THIS CLASS IS OVERPOWERED A: Yeah, it probably is, compared to an unoptimized melee fighter. Compared to a full caster, hell no. I believe melee classes should be kicking a lot more butts, and this class aims to do that in many ways. Q: You know, OA already did Iaijutsu for the Samurai, and they have a prestiege class based on it. A: Yup, I know. I don't like how they did it at all. In OA, to get extra Iaijutsu dice, you have to catch an opponent flat-footed. It's Sudden Strike for a class that can't hide. This is backwards of the whole idea of Iaido/Iaijutsu, where the sword itself catches the opponent off guard, as opposed to needing to catch the opponent off guard. Thus, this class. Q: This looks a lot like anime/movies. That is so totally unrealistic. A: Uh huh. I already said this was based off of anime and video games. If you want realism in your melee classes, go play a fighter and cry in the corner. Q: Clarify impossible cleave's uses/day for me. A: The class ability itself can be used three times per day. However, during a single usage of impossible cleave, as long as the next target is within 5 feet (10 at level 20) of the last target, and as long as you can see them, a virtually unlimited number of targets can be hit. Q: These FAQ questions aren't all that frequently asked... A: Well, most of them aren't questions, they're statements. And I feel I need to get this out of the way. And this post was just sitting here.
katarl 05-27-07, 02:22 PM	Once you get noto, doesn't that mean you're getting a Nukitsuke Strike every round? You have no limit to free actions. If you want to balance this against the rogue, fighter etc. it may be better to leave it as average bab. However, with tome of battle, it may be ameniable to balance to allow full bab. It does seem a bit wierd to have a swordmaster with average bab. Its a very impressive, if very specialized, class. My recommendation is to tone down the offensive abilities a bit, add full bab, and add a few evasive or defensive abilities, maybe with light armour instead of medium. Maybe add wis to initiative? Just throwing a couple of ideas around, i'd really like to playtest when this is done.
Captain_Kobold 05-27-07, 03:22 PM	You may want to have a look at the Iaijutsu master from the Oriental adventures sourcebook, as well as their samurai base class for ideas. Some very interesting ideas here though.
koiulpoi 05-27-07, 04:02 PM	I'm rather familiar with the Iaijustu Focus skill and Iaijutsu Master prestiege classes from OA. And, to be entirely honest, I don't like how they're done. The sword catches the opponent off guard, it doesn't require you to catch them off guard. Thus, the class. Katarl - thanks so much for the kind words! Yes, that does mean you're getting the strike every round. I haven't yet run the numbers on this class, so I don't know how it fares. However, I would not balance it to the fighter - I'd rather it be more on par with something like the Barbarian or Warblade for damage potential. One of my thoughts for changing the class is to actually give it better progression for the Nukitsuke Strike, and have the class focus on Spring Attack type actions - not force it to be so, but encourage it with light armor, movement enhancements, etc. Wisdom to initiative... interesting.
Kalis Atrud 05-27-07, 05:07 PM	Johnny from Guilty Gear as Lawful? I'd make Noto a feat with the stipulation that if you use Noto to sheathe your weapon in combat you can't get iaijutsu focus on your next attack that encounter and just eliminate the class entirely if I really wanted a character to fight like that though. Mechanically it seemed fine from the skim I did of it, I'm just not keen on a 20 level class based around just drawing your sword.
koiulpoi 05-27-07, 05:42 PM	Mechanically it seemed fine from the skim I did of it, I'm just not keen on a 20 level class based around just drawing your sword. You must not be keen on martial artists in Japan spending their entire lives devoted to the very same art, either. To each his own, I suppose.
Kalis Atrud 05-27-07, 07:05 PM	You must not be keen on martial artists in Japan spending their entire lives devoted to the very same art, either. To each his own, I suppose. Those same people probably aren't any higher level than 3 or 4. http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
koiulpoi 05-27-07, 07:07 PM	Those same people probably aren't any higher level than 3 or 4. Fascinating argument. While it may hold true in real life (and probably not, considering they're "master swordsmen" or something like that), it holds no bearing over a class in D&D, a fantasy game - especially a class based more on the fantastical and anime than the real people and real ideas. If you don't like it on that basis alone, I must respectfully ask you to not comment in this thread anymore. EDIT: Read your article. Interesting read, to be sure, but has absolutely no bearing on a pseudo-blademagic class. It's not supposed to be realistic. I mention anime and videogames in the class description, for god's sake.
Squangos 05-27-07, 09:16 PM	Interesting. I'm working on a class that shares some of the same abilities (save-or-die melee attack, ranged energy slash, give up full attack for increased damage), but more power-based than speed-based (chopping arms off, inflicting fountaining neck-wounds… "Boss monster" sort of mindset, I guess). Since a Rogue gets equivalent Sneak Attack die on every attack that qualifies, as well as more skills, Evasion and so on, I'd give the current Iaidoka at least full BAB. Maybe have Delay the Slash deal the damage when a chosen condition is met (sheathing the blade; next time damage is dealt, to help overcome DR; target tries casting a spell, to force a Concentration check), so it's less of a cosmetic feature. Distance Trip could be a (feat) option, along with "Distance Bull-rush" and "Distance Sunder". Not sure why Distance Trip can't be used on every Distance Slash if you want to do that. Spring Attacking would probably go well with the Iaidoka, since they have one major melee attack per round and aren't slowed by heavy armour. Technically can't Distance Slash on a Spring Attack, though, so that might need changing. Good start; add more fun Iaidoka-like abilities, emphasize the Iaidokaness of the class (i.e. Wizards stay at the back casting long-range spells because they have d4 hit die; Barbarians have d12 hit die because they charge into melee head-first, etc. So maybe Iaidoka take penalties when trying to use ranged weaponry.) and generally aim for the most Iaidoka character ever (something no mix of base and prestige classes that isn't heavily optimized can do better). Then balance it. I suggest worrying about balance last because it frees your mind, letting you focus on designing an enjoyable class; I hate balancing things in general; plus I hate balancing something, only to have to balance it again later after making changes.
Grave_Accomplice 05-28-07, 12:39 AM	Seems a bit much. Almost like its based more on the movies than the art form itself.
katarl 05-28-07, 06:41 AM	I don't know if hold the slash is necessary, hold person for dramatic effect? I always thought they paused because of the crippling internal injuries they're only just noticing. I'd also put a limit on the time that can pass with delay the slash, maybe 5 rounds? Interested in the possibilities of this class, i went off and made a different one, based on the same concept, unfortunately it ended up as more of a non-psionic soulknife variant than what you use, in fact, i think i only used delay the slash. For your class however, i concur with Squangos.
koiulpoi 05-29-07, 01:34 AM	Thanks so much for the comments, especially to Squangos, who had so many great and inspirational ideas. Here's the changes in "Version 2": Removed per day limitation on Distance Slash Made the class Full BAB Added "Blinding Slash" Added "Impossible Cleave" Added "Fast Movement" Added "Gazing at the Mountain" Added "The Deepest Cut" Added "A Thousand Cuts" Added "Spirit of Victory" Removed "Distance Trip", may put it back in as a feat. Overall, it's probably too much. You get some great abilities now, especially at the higher levels. Gives you some reason to stick with the class other than just extra /days and d6s. However, I was really going for "Fun" and "Awesome" here, not so much on the "Balance" issue. Then again, compared to full casters, he's just killing people, not, as Tempest Stormwind puts it, "bending reality into a yoga pretzel". Things to do/think about Wisdom mod as a bonus to initiative? Tweak saves and requirements. In particular, I'm thinking of changing blinding slash to -4. Perhaps make saves equal to a concentration check? Remove/tweak/change the "Per day" limitation, possibly change to "Per Encounter" Tweak the level that you get certain abilities Playtest this baby!
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 02:24 PM	I'll take that with one big glass of :bump: please.
strange_person 05-30-07, 02:59 PM	For optimal craziness, I would love playing one of these guys gestalted with Scout, especially with, say, the Insectile template to allow multiple weapons in hand. Spring Attack (and the PHB II multi-target version, Bounding Assault) and super-tumbling, and maybe the Crescent Moon style, lets you walk up to your foe, take a moment to focus, and then dance around in a flurry of steel. Every round for 6 consecutive rounds, you draw a short sword or dagger, make a nukisuke strike against someone you started your turn adjacent to, and then make a spring attack (with skirmish) against someone else. When you're done, all your weapons deployed and the final attack routine completed, you stand back. The assembled mob of enemies, wounded but alive, regroups and collects their weapons, which you've managed to scatter. The boss says "That's some fancy swordplay! I'd be impressed if it wasn't just a flurry of misssuuurgh [deathrattle]" as you resheathe your various blades and all that delayed damage finally kicks in. It's nothing a sorcerer of equal level couldn't do with a Delayed Blast Fireball, and you took several rounds to set it up, but the style points are totally worth it.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 04:38 PM	I think you hit the nail on the head, strange_person! You bring up an interesting point - even though you can only get Nukitsuke Strike dice once per round, you can have multiple damages "held" if you have multiple weapons. I doubt I'll change it, I actually like that idea :D. It's nothing a sorcerer of equal level couldn't do with a Delayed Blast Fireball, and you took several rounds to set it up, but the style points are totally worth it. That's part of the reason I was contemplating giving this class an extra d6 every level instead of every other. Among other things. But yeah, style points ;).
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 07:57 PM	As pointed above, there is no limit to free actions, so theoretically you should be able to deal a full round of nukitsuke strikes once you get Noutou. (And yes, I'm pícky about how I write stuff.) Of course, that'd happen EVERY round, because there's no reason to NOT sheathe your sword when the damage basis of your entire class is based off unsheathing it. Unless you're not an iaidouka at all. But then again, I couldn't care less about balance. Our current DM has taught us that anything and everything in D&D can be broken, and you don't even have to bend the rules. (Just as an example, he had a way of destroying the multiverse as a lv. 18 air shugenja, and I'm NOT kidding.) Since blindness is such a weak effect, I'd do it at a -4 penalty or no penalty at all. If you think it's strong, with a penalty, if not, without it. Impossible cleave looks great. I think I'm playtesting this... EDIT: Drop the lawfulness. I don't know what in God's name says that you have to be lawful to be a martial artist... Myself and Johnny from Guilty Gear are fine examples of that.
Archmage_of_Blood 05-30-07, 08:18 PM	I like this class alot! Very good execution... I also hated OA's approach to this idea.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 08:40 PM	As pointed above, there is no limit to free actions, so theoretically you should be able to deal a full round of nukitsuke strikes once you get Noutou. (And yes, I'm pícky about how I write stuff.) Of course, that'd happen EVERY round, because there's no reason to NOT sheathe your sword when the damage basis of your entire class is based off unsheathing it. Unless you're not an iaidouka at all. But then again, I couldn't care less about balance. Our current DM has taught us that anything and everything in D&D can be broken, and you don't even have to bend the rules. (Just as an example, he had a way of destroying the multiverse as a lv. 18 air shugenja, and I'm NOT kidding.) Since blindness is such a weak effect, I'd do it at a -4 penalty or no penalty at all. If you think it's strong, with a penalty, if not, without it. Impossible cleave looks great. I think I'm playtesting this... EDIT: Drop the lawfulness. I don't know what in God's name says that you have to be lawful to be a martial artist... Myself and Johnny from Guilty Gear are fine examples of that. Allright, thanks for looking it over! If you note, the Nukitsuke strike can only be done once per round,so you don't get it on iterative attacks, period. You can get it every round. I might drop the lawful requirement. My initial thought was that the self-concentration and improvement required to be a class like this would require you to be lawful - but I've recently remembered I hate alignment restrictions. EDIT: Yup, convinced. Lawfulness removed.
strange_person 05-30-07, 08:54 PM	One point that should be clarified… does No Fear Feint leave residue? Instead of saying "only true rez works" it might be better to say "destroys the physical remains, preventing most forms of revivification." That way, for example, True Reincarnate would work, just in case someone's using this in a low-magic horror game where Clerics aren't available as PCs, but Druids are (which I plan to do).
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 09:00 PM	I don't see why it'd have to be once per round. A rogue can deal that many sneak attacks or more in a full round, why would the Iaidouka be limited? EDIT: You might want to include weapon finesse with the katana, too. Strength is not what goes behind a iai strike -- speed is. Besides, it would help a class that can otherwise only rely on light or medium armor.
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 09:08 PM	Oh, and I'd drop fort saves for reflex saves -- Iaidouka seem to me more like speedy types than guys who can handle poison and diseases better.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 09:53 PM	strange_person - Well, I didn't even know there was a True Reincarnate, so I'll have to go back and change that. Kuroimaken - I think I'm going to leave it with strength, however, I may end up changing it to high reflex/low fort. Why? Because I think finesse is ridiculous. As a fellow martial artist you should know that speed is just another form of strength. I see dexterity much more so as dodging blows and picking locks, and as such I just don't think it fits properly. Then again, Balance is linked to dexterity, so in some ways dexterity is precision. I must think on this. And, as you said about the Rogue, that's why I also thought of giving this class a d6 every level instead of the odd levels. I truly see this class as a "massive single attack" rather than a "super sneak attack that doesn't need flanking" class. Again, I must think on this. (That, of course means this guy sucks against people with Epic Dodge, but come on, it's epic).
strange_person 05-30-07, 09:56 PM	By the time Epic Dodge becomes an issue, the iaidoka will probably have some epic feat specifically to counter it.
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 10:02 PM	It's just that it feels wrong to me somehow to see a iaidouka as a muscled hunk, that's why I suggested finesse.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 10:10 PM	Hmm... I can't help but agree, especially when this (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/shingotink/Gallery/CvsS2/Capcom/Hibiki.jpg) is the picture I was going to use once I wrote up the "fluff". I must think more on this, of course. I've never liked finesse fighters all that much, but that's more how D&D mechanics work than anything else. By the way, thanks for all the suggestions! I appreciate that you're nit-picking my class, because I already know that the "overall" view is good :D. strange_person - yup. Changed No Fear Feint, btw.
koiulpoi 06-02-07, 12:02 AM	Also, if I make the katana finessable, or even worse, give it as a free feat, this class becomes a great two level dip (weapon finesse, quick draw, and +10 feet movement? SURE!) Of course, it kind of is anyways, but that makes it worse. Of course, two of those can be gotten with the two-level dip into fighter... I completely agree that it should be more "precision" rather than "bashing through defenses", but I'm not going to do it that way.
heretic888 06-02-07, 08:37 AM	Why? Because I think finesse is ridiculous. As a fellow martial artist you should know that speed is just another form of strength. Oh, really??? So, how many martial arts masters do you know that can benchpress 250 pounds or regularly run triathlons?? And, why is it the elderly martial artists tend to be the ones that hit harder and move faster?? The "strength" and "speed" we're talking about here have next to nothing to do with conventional wisdom on the subject. Its about the efficient application of biomechanics and movement principles. "Muscling" through a technique is the exact opposite of what is desired. I would actually argue that it has more to do with Wisdom than either Strength or Dexterity, but that's just me.
PrinceCurtis 06-02-07, 02:10 PM	well either way this i an awesome class. I wanna have one of these but i don't know what to gestalt it with....
strange_person 06-03-07, 12:01 AM	Try gestalting it with Soulknife. As long as you're going psionic, why not somehow work in Graft Weapon and the Blood Wind spell from Savage Species? The complete "final fantasy" skillset: Battle commences! You spend an action regaining your psionic focus, or charging psychic strike, or Charge the Slash. In fact, you probably spend several rounds doing some combination of those things. Once you finally stop "charging" and actually attack, you just pull out your sword, which is apparently stuck to your hand, and wave it in the general direction of your opponent, from across the room. This, of course, causes an entire group of enemies to explode into clouds of blood, which then mysteriously evaporates, leaving only treasure.
koiulpoi 06-03-07, 01:00 AM	Oh, really??? So, how many martial arts masters do you know that can benchpress 250 pounds or regularly run triathlons?? And, why is it the elderly martial artists tend to be the ones that hit harder and move faster?? The "strength" and "speed" we're talking about here have next to nothing to do with conventional wisdom on the subject. Its about the efficient application of biomechanics and movement principles. "Muscling" through a technique is the exact opposite of what is desired. I would actually argue that it has more to do with Wisdom than either Strength or Dexterity, but that's just me. I think you missed the "another form of" section of that sentence. I suppose the argument could be made that "that's exactly what dexterity represents", and I would agree. I just don't like dexterity linking to, oh, opening locks. I don't think the same "biomechanics" are used for lockpicking, dodging, and landing blows. D&D lumps all of these together, and this is what I disagree with. But, if this offends people so highly, I suppose it would be fitting for this character to be able to finesse the katana, but he won't get the feat for free. After all, we're talking about reality vs D&D, which is a logic fallacy before we even say a word. And, despite you coming in here to tell me that I'm wrong about something, you said decidedly nothing about the class itself. Thanks.
Nexis 06-03-07, 01:27 AM	I have no balance notes to add, please accept my praise instead. :D
ceiling90 06-03-07, 01:49 AM	At first glance, it looks ridiculous... seriously, it's a powerhouse of a class, but on a better inspections, it's still ridiculous, ridiculously wonderful... Side note: Is there a way to make Transfer the Slash, no damage to it's first intended target...? As in basically strike through someone, to strike someone else? I would suggest allowing it at a much later level than when Transfer the Slash...but the class is already so feature heavy....or they could do it with a very heavy penalty?
koiulpoi 06-03-07, 01:07 PM	I have no balance notes to add, please accept my praise instead. :D Thank you very much :D At first glance, it looks ridiculous... seriously, it's a powerhouse of a class, but on a better inspections, it's still ridiculous, ridiculously wonderful... Side note: Is there a way to make Transfer the Slash, no damage to it's first intended target...? As in basically strike through someone, to strike someone else? I would suggest allowing it at a much later level than when Transfer the Slash...but the class is already so feature heavy....or they could do it with a very heavy penalty? And thank you very much :D. I think you misread Transfer the Slash. It transfers damage to the new target unless the new target makes a will save. If the new target fails the will save, it takes 100% damage and the original takes 0%. If the new target makes the will save, it takes 50% and the old one takes 50%. Also, I think this ability is balanced at 13th level. Full casters just got 7th level spells, after all.
JLaurHughes 06-03-07, 01:36 PM	I just got to this thread, skimmed over the class and have to say, impressive. If I am understanding the Transfer the Slash ability correctly you basically choose two targets(Say a fighter and a wizard) make the attack against the designated primary target(the fighter who is between you and your overall target for instance) the secondary target(that wizard who is in the middle of casting a spell that is taking longer than one round - causing him to make two rolls...one for save vs damage and one to keep the spell he is working on) If the will save(have a question on that in a moment) is successful the wizard takes half damage(thus lowering the concentration DC but still causing it) and the fighter who is in the way takes the other half. Now to the question...why a will save?
koiulpoi 06-03-07, 02:07 PM	I just got to this thread, skimmed over the class and have to say, impressive. If I am understanding the Transfer the Slash ability correctly you basically choose two targets(Say a fighter and a wizard) make the attack against the designated primary target(the fighter who is between you and your overall target for instance) the secondary target(that wizard who is in the middle of casting a spell that is taking longer than one round - causing him to make two rolls...one for save vs damage and one to keep the spell he is working on) If the will save(have a question on that in a moment) is successful the wizard takes half damage(thus lowering the concentration DC but still causing it) and the fighter who is in the way takes the other half. Now to the question...why a will save? Thanks for the praise! See the post right above yours. You seem correct, however. And, why a will save? It felt right at the time to write will as opposed to fortitude. The Inflict Wounds tree of spells are Will Half, and it seems to go nicer with the flavor (I mean, it's a magical transferral of damage) than fortitude.
JLaurHughes 06-03-07, 02:26 PM	I see, just had to clarify that much. Thanks. What sort of progression are you planning above 20th level when it starts becoming epic? If the character lasts that long that is.
Kuroimaken 06-03-07, 02:42 PM	If you're going to allow Weapon Finesse for the katana but not give them the feat, you should at least write it into the class. After all, for some bizarre twist of destiny, katanas are not considered finessable normally. Or, then again, you could make it so your Wisdom mod applies to attack rolls, which would make this a great class to gestalt with cleric or druid. ...And now I have the mental image of an iaidouka dire bear.
koiulpoi 06-03-07, 07:28 PM	I see, just had to clarify that much. Thanks. What sort of progression are you planning above 20th level when it starts becoming epic? If the character lasts that long that is. Urgh, woah. I hadn't even thought about that yet. I'll need to think of some even more ridiculous things for the class to get. Presumably Charge the Slash will become a free or swift action over time. If you're going to allow Weapon Finesse for the katana but not give them the feat, you should at least write it into the class. After all, for some bizarre twist of destiny, katanas are not considered finessable normally. Or, then again, you could make it so your Wisdom mod applies to attack rolls, which would make this a great class to gestalt with cleric or druid. ...And now I have the mental image of an iaidouka dire bear. Done and done. Wrote the Finesse ability into the Nukitsuke strike class feature, and added a feat that lets you use wisdom. I know that it's already available in another form in the BoED, but it doesn't cover the katana and is also exalted. Anyways, you still have to spend a feat slot if you want to use something other than strength. And besides, anything gestalt with CoDZilla is sick. Personally I'd go with cleric, so that you're 10 feet tall and destroy things anyways. Just find a god (or make one) whose favored weapon is the katana and go to town.
PrinceCurtis 06-04-07, 11:32 AM	Try gestalting it with Soulknife. As long as you're going psionic, why not somehow work in Graft Weapon and the Blood Wind spell from Savage Species? The complete "final fantasy" skillset: Battle commences! You spend an action regaining your psionic focus, or charging psychic strike, or Charge the Slash. In fact, you probably spend several rounds doing some combination of those things. Once you finally stop "charging" and actually attack, you just pull out your sword, which is apparently stuck to your hand, and wave it in the general direction of your opponent, from across the room. This, of course, causes an entire group of enemies to explode into clouds of blood, which then mysteriously evaporates, leaving only treasure. Um soulknife? It's underpowerd and i still haven't seen a fix I completely liked. But your whole graft weapon scenario would make for great "war" stories ;) I just realized my own Combat Maid might do the trick....
Damon_Caskey 06-04-07, 01:00 PM	Oh, really??? So, how many martial arts masters do you know that can benchpress 250 pounds or regularly run triathlons?? And, why is it the elderly martial artists tend to be the ones that hit harder and move faster?? The "strength" and "speed" we're talking about here have next to nothing to do with conventional wisdom on the subject. Its about the efficient application of biomechanics and movement principles. "Muscling" through a technique is the exact opposite of what is desired. I would actually argue that it has more to do with Wisdom than either Strength or Dexterity, but that's just me. Because also as a fellow martial artist, (specifically Goshin-Ryu), I don't pretend that we are not bound by the laws of physics. I CAN bench 250 thank you very much, (actually 255 but that's my absolute max) and to look at me I am fairly average sized guy (6'1", 202lb), not some hulking brute. If I target a simple reverse punch with everything I've got, it's going to have a lot more force behind it then someone equal to my own strength throwing a wild haymaker or trying to mimic my technique. Why? I am trained, he's not; there is your application of biomechanical principal. And of coruse the advantage grows bigger when the target is moving, striking back, and there is no time to set for attacks; that is when the advantage of training and much moreso experience really kicks in. But what happens if the person IS trained, equal to my skill AND is bigger/stronger? Duh, he packs more power then I do, pure and simple. Using the same technique I do, his advantage in mass allows him to generate greater force at point of impact. On top of that, he can probably strike FASTER then me (and in effect multiply the force disparity) to due to his greater strength allowing him to beat his own inertia more quickly, although that is not a guarantee. The reason older men can generate more force and speed is because they have been doing it their whole lives; they know how to make up for what their bodies are loosing. That doesn't mean the same amount of experience would somehow not function better in a younger, stronger body. Try finding a young man with little or no physical talent capable of generating mass amounts of force using pure biomechanics; it won't happen. If it were, my friend's 12 year old little cousin who happens to be (no offence to her) one of those manufactured black belts and loves to try out her moves would break my bones every time she hits me. What I am getting at is that the stereotype of the muscle bound hulk who can't move his body getting slapped around by the little wimp who took a few classes is a myth. It takes a lifetime to develop the ability to overcome the body’s shortcomings in ANY discipline, not just fighting. And even when you do, all else being equal, the physically superior opponent still has the advantage. No doubt someone with 30 years of training on me would slap me around like a b*** despite being physically inferior. But put me against a 70 year old man with training that is equal to my own, and I'll snap him in two. Strength DOES matter, and it always will. Applied to this class, remember that shethed weapon has inertia. You have to draw it from a standing stop in a fairly disadvantageous position and in one motion generate enough force to strike though armor, flesh, bone, and either follow through or recoil said strike, and you have to do it quickly enough to tag your opponent before he can raise his guard. The class represents your experience and your training; the balance, the propor motion, the intuition, the speed, and the timing to do this. Stregth represents your body's natural propensity to apply the needed force at the desired speed. Having a naturally deep mind or nimble fingers has little to do with it. In D&D terms, the old man is just higher level then his younger counterparts. DC
koiulpoi 06-04-07, 01:57 PM	Damon_Caskey - I appreciate your response, and agree with most everything you said. It covers what I dislike about the D&D system - in a way. As it stands, I'm leaving it how it is, because I like the flavor of what I've done, and D&D has little to do with reality. If you wish to discuss this more (or, the topic of "biomechanics" or any other mostly off-topic topic), please make a new thread.
Damon_Caskey 06-04-07, 03:00 PM	Yeah, my bad. I just never liked the recent "Stregth is bad" thing in culture, as if being physicaly stronger somehow is worthless or automatically means you must be stupid/thugish/slow/etc.. I like the class, and I do have to say it beats the daylights out of WoTC material. Keep up the good work, and sorry about the long post. DC P.S: If you wouldn't care, have a look at my Engetsu Shinobi and see what you think. Cheers, DC
koiulpoi 06-04-07, 03:19 PM	Yeah, my bad. I just never liked the recent "Stregth is bad" thing in culture, as if being physicaly stronger somehow is worthless or automatically means you must be stupid/thugish/slow/etc.. It's because INT is a dump stat for Barbarians :D. And the juggernaut. Among other things. I like the class, and I do have to say it beats the daylights out of WoTC material. Keep up the good work, and sorry about the long post. Thank you. DC P.S: If you wouldn't care, have a look at my Engetsu Shinobi and see what you think. Cheers, DC Will do!
JLaurHughes 06-04-07, 09:33 PM	P.S: If you wouldn't care, have a look at my Engetsu Shinobi and see what you think. Cheers, DC Yep will also now that I am back to looking at the thread's I've gotten subscribed to.
inkeyeshasthecoolestart 06-04-07, 09:49 PM	I know you dont really care about balance suggestions but i have to say it. This class is overpowered. There I said it. Dont get me wrong, I am pretty much an only melee fighter, but this class is too much. Maybe gain strike every 3rd level? Major Style Points though. I mean major. Coolest class i have seen on the boards(just beats out the coward class). It is really nicely written too. I love the Idea of a Nimble fighter just twirling his blades while sheathing every other attack for pure coolness. I really like Delay the Slash. I love the idea of just spring attacking and in the end just sheathing and watching the enemy drop. Gives the class alot of flavor and pure awsomeness. Overall the flavor is amazing and the idea is really cool. Just overpowered.(sorry i had to say it again)
Damon_Caskey 06-04-07, 10:41 PM	Baseless, and worse, unsupported. There, I said it. There is nothing overpowered about the class at all. Is it better then a Fighter? Maybe. Is it better then a Rogue? Probably not. Can it even dream of keeping up with any full casting class? Not on the best of days. Unless you can provide situational comparisons (not vs. matches) as to why it's overpowered, I don't blame the OP for ignoring balance suggestions. DC
ceiling90 06-05-07, 12:09 AM	It seriously does sound over powered, I mean in low levels it'll own a lot of things, including low level casters and rogues, it'll make mince meat about anything within the first five levels probably... but so can an optimized twf fighter... but soon as we hit past the level where casters get invisibility and battle field control... this guy is basically blown out of the water... since this guy is pretty much at best, "one shot, one kill"; large groups which may become a problem for this character, is not a problem for a combat oriented caster with AoE spells... It really does sound overpowered, especially compared to the fighter core class, pretty much sacrifices everything for flexibility... and gets diminishing returns. At best, this guy is like what a monk or a what they consider the specops function in the game, taking out the battle field leader while the front liners (barbarians, and CoDzilla, and fighters) basically deal with keeping the casters alive. He's good, but not really overpowered.
koiulpoi 06-05-07, 01:57 AM	inkeyeshasthecoolestart - thanks very much for the comments! Although, it's true what the other two who posted after you are saying - it's not overpowered. A TWF Rogue can get massive d6s every round as long as he's flanking. Wizards bend reality without thinking about it. Is he better than the core figher? Oh, hell yes. That's the point. The core fighter is seriously underpowered, imho. This class stands alongside the ToB classes as far as power goes, and does it with just as much - or more - flare and style. At least, that's what I aimed for. ceiling90 - I doubt he'll make mincemeat of everything below level 5 - what if he runs into a druid?
ceiling90 06-05-07, 02:08 PM	Oh yeah, I forget about the druids... cause at low levels Druids are basically two characters...
koiulpoi 06-13-07, 10:28 PM	Whoo boy, I feel stupid. I added a level one ability that makes it so your sheathing of the sword doesn't provoke AoOs. Makes this an even better "dip" class, but any sane DM would not allow dipping of homemade classes.
koiulpoi 07-07-07, 03:06 PM	Update! Removed Shield Proficiency Removed 1/round limitation on Nukitsuke Strike Changed sheathing to an immediate action from free, moved to Gazing at the Mountain (4th level vs 1st) Moved "no attacks of opportunity" to Gazing at the Mountain (4th level vs 1st)
strange_person 07-07-07, 03:54 PM	Delay the Slash is described as a third-level ability, but charted at second. Um soulknife? It's underpowerd and i still haven't seen a fix I completely liked. But your whole graft weapon scenario would make for great "war" stories ;) I just realized my own Combat Maid might do the trick.... Yeah, but this class covers some of the soulknife's weaknesses (like BAB) and the two different sources of bonus damage dice stack quite nicely. There's also a bit of versatility; if your mindblade is somehow disabled (such as a null psionics zone), you've still got crazy powers with conventional weapons, and if you're tied up and disarmed, you've still got stealth and the mindblade.
Feredenil 07-07-07, 04:26 PM	This class needs practice in real play of course first, but looks really interesting. One question; When one choses that the delayed delt damage are applied, what happens if the monster has damage reduction ? Does the DR apply on each of the slashes or the total ? In the second case you do realise the tremendous advantage this gives over other fighting classes, as well as making the need to enhance ones weapons completely secontary on that matter.
teshen 07-07-07, 07:55 PM	This class looks interesting. I'll give it a better going over later. However, shouldn't it be iaijutsu rather than iaido? I was under the impression that 'do' is 'way' and 'jutsu' is 'technique'... if this class is focusing on the damage rather than the metaphysical stuff it's the technique rather than the philosophy...
koiulpoi 07-07-07, 10:07 PM	This class looks interesting. I'll give it a better going over later. However, shouldn't it be iaijutsu rather than iaido? I was under the impression that 'do' is 'way' and 'jutsu' is 'technique'... if this class is focusing on the damage rather than the metaphysical stuff it's the technique rather than the philosophy... Probably. I am not changing the class to "Iaijutsuka", which I'm pretty sure is the wrong term anyways.
strange_person 07-08-07, 09:54 AM	Considering some of the higher-end stuff, yeah, these guys put the mystical parts in.
Prime32 07-28-07, 11:38 AM	:cookie: I'm giving you a cookie, unless there's some rule on who can give them out I haven't heard of :D And on Delay the Slash, I don't think you should have to tie the damage to sheathing your blade - I'm sure I've seen anime where the damage is dealt while the attacker's blade is still out.
koiulpoi 07-28-07, 01:14 PM	:cookie: I'm giving you a cookie, unless there's some rule on who can give them out I haven't heard of :D And on Delay the Slash, I don't think you should have to tie the damage to sheathing your blade - I'm sure I've seen anime where the damage is dealt while the attacker's blade is still out. Thanks for the cookie! It's going in my sig. And two, yes, that's exactly right. That happens all the time. However, it wasn't quite the flavor I'd wanted for the class, and I also needed something to trigger the damage other than "free action/snap your hands".
Twylyght 07-28-07, 05:45 PM	I just came across this, and I like it very much. As someone who played a Samurai/Iajtsu Master this fixes alot of my issues with that character, mostly that flat footed thing (though improved feint helped alot).
strange_person 07-28-07, 11:23 PM	Thanks for the cookie! It's going in my sig. And two, yes, that's exactly right. That happens all the time. However, it wasn't quite the flavor I'd wanted for the class, and I also needed something to trigger the damage other than "free action/snap your hands". It also provides an excuse to own half a dozen nearly-identical swords, and there's the possibility of an occasional complication or dramatic chase scene. Example: You use Delay the Slash on a crime boss. His minions have seen you do it before, so you're trying to get them to parley by threatening the boss's life. Once it hits, that one strike will probably kill him outright; he's already badly hurt, and has exhausted the healing at his disposal. While you're negotiating, one of the thugs regains the element of surprise and snatches the weapon that's "holding the charge," then runs off into the sewers. It's just a dagger with no particular distinguishing characteristics; all he has to do is throw it down a hole or (better yet) pawn it, and you'll probably never find it again, so you chase after him. Meanwhile, the rest of the party has to deal with the crime lord's remaining minions without you. Since there's no range or time limits, the ability might even be a seed for an enemy's secret vulnerability. The great wyrm Whutz-Izfache is said to be physically invulnerable, but long ago, as a mere wyrmling, it was attacked by an Iaiadoka and would have been slain, except that the blade was broken before it could be resheathed. Repair the blade, find the sheathe, reunite them, and that mortal wound, held in abeyance for fifteen hundred years, will finally manifest.
koiulpoi 07-28-07, 11:28 PM	strange_person, I can't tell if that was a veiled compliment or a thinly veiled insult. If it's really going to be abused in your games, don't play the class. Otherwise, I might put in a clause about it only being able to be held until the end of an encounter, or require LoE, and the damage automatically gets dealt when LoE is broken.
strange_person 07-29-07, 01:07 AM	Compliment, definitely. If I'm trying to insult someone, I tend to be much more clear about it. I wouldn't really consider either of those scenarios an abuse; it's just drifting a bit off-concept, into the kind of sympathetic action-at-a-distance that's normally exclusive to shadow magic. I actually really like it when a literal reading of the rules can provide interesting flavor all by itself.
koiulpoi 07-29-07, 01:14 AM	Compliment, definitely. If I'm trying to insult someone, I tend to be much more clear about it. I wouldn't really consider either of those scenarios an abuse; it's just drifting a bit off-concept, into the kind of sympathetic action-at-a-distance that's normally exclusive to shadow magic. I actually really like it when a literal reading of the rules can provide interesting flavor all by itself. Yes, it does create a very interesting flavor, one I had not initially intended, but fits well with the class. After all, it's a rather "mystical" class as it is, and not a purely martial class. After all, when we see something like this in anime or video games, we don't wonder the little extra things like this (well, I don't), but when put into a D&D setting, we do. We just think that he can do that from "Powers of Badassery" or something. And props for spelling definitely correctly.
strange_person 07-29-07, 01:27 AM	And props for spelling definitely correctly. My father was an English professor, and he taught me to speak and write correctly. Half the point of a message board, in contrast to a chat room, is that statments can be composed and corrected. Thank you.
Malek 08-09-07, 06:22 PM	This thread is soooo getting subscribed. :D Great class, both mechacs- and flavor-wise, I hope I'll have an opportunity to use it one day. :)
koiulpoi 08-09-07, 08:10 PM	This thread is soooo getting subscribed. :D Great class, both mechacs- and flavor-wise, I hope I'll have an opportunity to use it one day. :) Thanks!
koiulpoi 09-04-07, 04:49 PM	:bump: to keep from trimming/archive.
Shrapnel_Blast 09-05-07, 01:10 AM	Extremely flavorful, and extremely well designed. :thumbsup:
strange_person 10-02-07, 01:49 PM	Does anyone have ideas for a "multiclassing feat," like the ones from Complete Adventurer?
ark7 10-02-07, 03:18 PM	Here are my thoughts on your class. I didn't have time to read through all the replies, so I may say something someone has already said. If this happens, please bear with me. Bluff - I understand this skill makes sense in combat, but I don't think the other uses (lie, cheat, decieve etc.) fit the concept. Instead, I'd sugest you make an ability that lets the Iaidoka add his Base Attack bonus on feint attempts. Specking of which, Improved Feint would be a nice bonus feat for this class to gain at lower levels. Armor proficiencies - Actually, armor was not that common among Samurai. I think the armor proficiencies are OK, but I'd also give the Iaidoka a 1st level ability that lets him add (while unarmored) his Wis modifier to damage (in addition to Str mod) and AC :D (I AM one of those kamikazes who like to make melee fighters that don't wear armor.) Good Saves - Will is OK, but I think Reflexes makes much more sense than Fortitude. Evasion would also be nice, thank you =P Nukitsuke Strike - I beg of you, please forbid using this as part of a full attack action! Also, forbid using this more than once per turn (it would still allow him to use Noto, and the "overpower" level would be tremendously decreased). See my coment about "The Deepest Cut" below. Distance Slash - Please, make it usable once per encounter per 4 levels, instead of per day. It will not be overpowered, trust me. Also, make the starting range 10 ft, and change the check to add 5 ft for every 3 points by which it exceeds the DC (it is supposed to be a "distant" strike, right?) Gazing at the Mountain - You should put a reminder that an immediate action costs a swift action (unless I'm wrong). Also, I don't see what this name has to do with anything, but that's just my opinion. Blinding Slash - Dishonourable. OK, this is a game, and striking a beholder in the eyes is definitely NOT dishonourable. I'm not sure what to make of this (forbid from using against humanoids?). The Deepest Cut - If you follow my advice about Nukitsuke Strike, this ability should be changed to allow the Iaidoka to, once per round, make a second attack roll at a -5 penalty as a part of the Nukitsuke Strike. If the second attack hits, it deals the normal damage plus Nukitsuke Strike damage (yes, twice). At a later level, the ability improves to add a 3rd attack roll this way, at a -10 penalty. Note that all attacks (and Nukitsuke Strike damage dice) are part of the standard action used by the first Nukitsuke Strike, so the damage is dealt all at once. Transfer the Slash - Again, make it usable "per encounter", instead of "per day". Spirit of Victory - If you follow my advice about Nukitsuke Strike and The Deepest Cut, this ability becomes irrelevant. A Thousand Cuts - OVERPOWERED. Remove at once. All and all, I like your class, except for the excess of cheese. If you follow my suggestions, you should also rearrange the abilities, since some of them become less powerful. Insert some bonus feats at later levels (probably 14th, 17th and 20th) to make up for it. Anyway, what I said are just suggestions, and I don't mean to be bossy, you follow them if you want to =P
koiulpoi 10-02-07, 05:05 PM	If you can find a way to get more than one Nukitsuke strike/round, please let me know. I should probably put a clause in there to cover the "drawing 18 daggers" cheese, but it's fine other than that. Secondly, it's a capstone ability. If you think that's overpowered, go play any primary spellcaster. I personally believe (and have run the numebrs) that this class overall is underpowered, and so I laugh every time someone like you comes in with "cheese" arguments. Finally, if I really wanted to do things "per-counter", I would have made this a ToB-alike class with maneuvers instead of abilities. I didn't.
strange_person 10-02-07, 07:42 PM	"Dishonorable"? What part of "no alignment restriction" don't you understand? I would much rather face a Thousand Cuts beatdown than a typical blast-oriented wizard with Quicken Spell and two or more 9th-level spells per day. Thousand Cuts is available at 20th level; 9th level spells are available at 17th, even with PrCs. Think about that.
vorpo 10-02-07, 08:30 PM	1000 cuts is too powerful cuz it also combines nikitsuke and deepest cut dmg? I don't see why you need to use deepest cut (in turn, needs nikitsuke) to use 1000 cuts. Maybe make 1000 cuts as a full round action in itself and only use BAB (no str or feat bonus etc) only. If you want to use all those bonuses maybe the cumulative bonus should increase to -4 or -5
strange_person 10-02-07, 08:44 PM	It already is a full-round action. It requires that you make a full attack, hit with the first attack, and then give up the normal iterative attacks. Reducing the attack bonus by removing bonuses just adds more pointless bookkeeping to already sluggish combat mechanics. Balance aside, that's a bad idea.
vorpo 10-02-07, 08:50 PM	Nukitsuke Strike (Ex) - When an Iaidoka makes a melee attack immediately after drawing a weapon , he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. This damage improves every odd level. This damage is considered precision damage, and is thus not multiplied on critical hits, nor is not effective on creatures immune to critical hits. The Deepest Cut (Ex) - If an Iaidoka hits with the Nukitsuke strike on the full attack action, he may choose to forgo any other attacks he would make that round and instead attack again with the same attack bonus and damage roll. If this second attack hits, the new damage is simply added to the first - it is not considered a seperate source for purposes such as damage reduction. This damage may be held with Delay the Slash. Nukitsuke is used only after drawing a weapon which is a move action. Deepest cut requires full attack, which is a full round action, initiated by nukitsuke. There is no way to draw your weapon (a move action) then initiate a full attack (full round action) unless you have quick draw feat that makes your drawing weapon a free action. In other words, without that feat, deepest cut cannot be used (unless you got someone casting haste on you). Maybe you should change nukitsuke's ability to combine drawing weapon and make that immediate attack as one action (standard action maybe). For deepest cut, maybe make it a once per day ability that you can opt to use after successful nukitsuke attack. Or make the ability maybe instead forgoes AoP that round after successful nukitsuke but must be declared before knowing whether nukitsuke would hit. Either way, I think it's better not consider deepest cut's damage from the same source as nukitsuke.
vorpo 10-02-07, 08:53 PM	It already is a full-round action. It requires that you make a full attack, hit with the first attack, and then give up the normal iterative attacks. Reducing the attack bonus by removing bonuses just adds more pointless bookkeeping to already sluggish combat mechanics. Balance aside, that's a bad idea. Like I stated, if you don't want book keeping, make the cumulative penalty to attack -4 or -5. Since by level 20, I am sure you'd have a 25+ bonus (most likely you'd have at least +4 str mod and various feats to improve attack) to start with, not 20 like what you used in your example.
andinel 10-02-07, 08:53 PM	Iai (Ex) - At first level the Iaidoka begins his path of specific forms of sheathing and drawing his weapon. He is treated as having the quick draw feat. In addition, this allows him to use the Weapon Finesse feat with the katana, if he possesses it. Nukitsuke is used only after drawing a weapon which is a move action. Deepest cut requires full attack, which is a full round action, initiated by nukitsuke. There is no way to draw your weapon (a move action) then initiate a full attack (full round action) unless you have quick draw feat that makes your drawing weapon a free action. In other words, without that feat, deepest cut cannot be used (unless you got someone casting haste on you). Maybe you should change nukitsuke's ability to combine drawing weapon and make that immediate attack as one action (standard action maybe). For deepest cut, maybe make it a once per day ability that you can opt to use after successful nukitsuke attack. Or make the ability maybe instead forgoes AoP that round after successful nukitsuke but must be declared before knowing whether nukitsuke would hit. Either way, I think it's better not consider deepest cut's damage from the same source as nukitsuke. You get the Quick Draw feat for free at first level, so I don't see the problem.
strange_person 10-02-07, 08:54 PM	Iai (Ex) - At first level the Iaidoka begins his path of specific forms of sheathing and drawing his weapon. He is treated as having the quick draw feat. RTFM Edit: Dangit, andinel got it first.
livewireo 10-02-07, 10:39 PM	Here is an idea I had while reading your class. The class is very interesting and I thought this could be a feat or class ability or hell, just something to read: Charging Duel: If an opponent charges you, you may, as an immediate action, initiate a counter charge. You take a full move to move past the opponent, provoking an attack of oppurtunity. You may make an single attack at your highest attack bonus. If your attack succeeds, the opponent bleeds profusely from your attack, taking an additional 1d6 damage per round for rounds equal to one half your Iaidoka level rounded down. You may use this ability once per encounter. It also needs a better name.
koiulpoi 10-02-07, 10:59 PM	Holy cow, even more new comments! Anyways, honor and Iai have nothing to do with each other. In RL the style was based around being able to draw your sword before your oponent could properly react, and to kill in one single blow. Many of the styles taught that the first slash should be across the eyes to blind the opponent, followed up by a killing blow, removing the blood from the blade, and resheathing it. It was a brutal style, and cared very little for honor. It was about survivial - killing before you could be killed. Now, my class is a far cry from the real style of Iai, but the idea is the same. As for "Gazing at the Mountain", I chose the name as one of the core ideas of modern Iai is to always have your eyes focused as if "staring at a distant mountain". That, of course, is the martial art of Iai, not the killing style, but I liked the name anyways.
vorpo 10-02-07, 11:13 PM	Just a quick comment, the only way I know to translate iai literally in japanese would be lost or remaining love. Iaido as the way of the remaining love. Doesn't sound very heroic :P
koiulpoi 10-03-07, 01:21 AM	Just a quick comment, the only way I know to translate iai literally in japanese would be lost or remaining love. Iaido as the way of the remaining love. Doesn't sound very heroic :P Iaidō (居合道), approximately "the way of mental presence and immediate reaction", From wikipedia. I'm no nihongo expert myself.
vorpo 10-03-07, 09:55 AM	Iaidō (居合道), approximately "the way of mental presence and immediate reaction", From wikipedia. I'm no nihongo expert myself. ah, ic. thx for the clarification. I had a sense this class was 居合 but i can't find the translation.
strange_person 10-03-07, 12:39 PM	Here is an idea I had while reading your class. The class is very interesting and I thought this could be a feat or class ability or hell, just something to read: Charging Duel: If an opponent charges you, you may, as an immediate action, initiate a counter charge. You take a full move to move past the opponent, provoking an attack of oppurtunity. You may make an single attack at your highest attack bonus. If your attack succeeds, the opponent bleeds profusely from your attack, taking an additional 1d6 damage per round for rounds equal to one half your Iaidoka level rounded down. You may use this ability once per encounter. It also needs a better name. I'd say make it once per opponent, like Flick of the Wrist. Also, I'm a bit suspicious of letting a charachter take the equivalent of a full-round spring attack as an immediate action. Maybe require readying, like Cometary Charge? For true cinematic effect, require Leap Attack as a prerequisite?
ark7 10-03-07, 01:23 PM	I just gave my opinions. After all, you did name the topic as P.E.A.C.H. But since I was on a rush when I wrote last time, I may really have misread something, so I apologize for whatever
koiulpoi 10-03-07, 04:17 PM	I just gave my opinions. After all, you did name the topic as P.E.A.C.H. But since I was on a rush when I wrote last time, I may really have misread something, so I apologize for whatever Sure, I just disagreed with all your comments. It's nothing personal. It's not like I even know who you are in real life. I just think what you suggested was off-base from what I intended.
IdealJudgement315 10-10-07, 09:18 AM	you have no idea how happy i am to see someone finally make a class based around Iai that can work so well out of curiosity have you seen the anime Bleach around episode 130 they have one of the Arrancar using Iai in a very powerful way that might give you some more ideas keep up the good work though mate
Nexis 10-10-07, 11:01 AM	I understand this quote is old but... Armor proficiencies - Actually, armor was not that common among Samurai. I think the armor proficiencies are OK, but I'd also give the Iaidoka a 1st level ability that lets him add (while unarmored) his Wis modifier to damage (in addition to Str mod) and AC (I AM one of those kamikazes who like to make melee fighters that don't wear armor.) Are you joking me? look at my italics! Samurai wore tons of armor when they went to battle They were even granted armor when first becoming Samurai! In fact, just (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/2/2c/250px-Samurai.jpg) google (http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Samurai-Brandishing-Sword-Giclee-Print-C10273386.jpeg) samurai (http://web.inter.nl.net/users/A.A.G.Schiebroek/samurai.jpg) to see how many depictions of them place them in armor. Also this class is still cool, if underpowered if compared to a spellcaster, but who isn't these days?
strange_person 03-18-08, 12:02 PM	An interesting option, for those who think the class is too powerful, but which also adds a bit of flavor: speed increase applies only when wearing light or medium armor and not carrying a medium load or any unsheathed melee weapon.
Prime32 04-04-08, 03:09 PM	Play a gestalt monk/iaidoka, and use Delay the Quivering Palm. Your catch phrase is "You're already dead" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokuto_Shinken). :D
Bad-Mojo 05-06-08, 06:35 PM	Good stuff man, but i still don't seem to understand the Delay the Slash. Sure it's cool and cinematic, but I think it might seem impractical although the Transfer the Slash is sweet. The rest of the class is great but i'd really like to maybe change the Delay the Slash a bit, maybe give it a bonus for every round held or somethin. Maybe an extra 1d8 or so and make a progression of how many rounds it might be held. My 2 cents. :D (( Disregard this one, look at my other one.. i just still don't know how to delete it.))
Dionon 05-06-08, 08:28 PM	Just wanted to comment on how much I love this class over the traditional Samrai classes that exist. This one makes much more sense in a dramatic environment. Also I love the anime feel to it with abilities such as Delay the Slash making it an impressive looking and feeling melee powerhouse.
klode_me 05-07-08, 02:45 AM	Just a few questions about the class abilities: The deepest cut, spirit victory, and a thousand cuts: Does they also count as the first attack made after immediately drawing their weapon, which means that they add Nukitsuke strike to every successful "hit" made? Cheers Klode
Bad-Mojo 05-07-08, 05:37 PM	Dude, thank you for bringing this class into our lives. Very awesome, very fun, incredible... i MUST play test this! I'm between Dementia Summoner (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=752891&page=2) and this one. I'd actually really like to get some feedback on this decision but that's not very important really :D . My small iffyness is this: Delay the slash is cool for cinematic purposes and Hold the Slash which i must say is awesome and also Transfer the slash. The effects than can be integrated while using Delay the Slash is great but maybe it should grant a small bonus? Maybe deal an additional 1d8 per round delayed that might be progressive or something, i think it's something to think about. Everything else looks good although some things might be better to be made "times per encounter" not per day such as: Transfer the Slash and Distance Slash. My 2 cents. :D
koiulpoi 12-01-08, 10:08 AM	Wow, more comments, after a long hiatus. Good stuff man, but i still don't seem to understand the Delay the Slash. Sure it's cool and cinematic, but I think it might seem impractical although the Transfer the Slash is sweet. The rest of the class is great but i'd really like to maybe change the Delay the Slash a bit, maybe give it a bonus for every round held or somethin. Maybe an extra 1d8 or so and make a progression of how many rounds it might be held. My 2 cents. :D (( Disregard this one, look at my other one.. i just still don't know how to delete it.)) Thanks for the comments! Just wanted to comment on how much I love this class over the traditional Samrai classes that exist. This one makes much more sense in a dramatic environment. Also I love the anime feel to it with abilities such as Delay the Slash making it an impressive looking and feeling melee powerhouse. Thank you very much! Just a few questions about the class abilities: The deepest cut, spirit victory, and a thousand cuts: Does they also count as the first attack made after immediately drawing their weapon, which means that they add Nukitsuke strike to every successful "hit" made? Cheers Klode All of those use the exact same damage as the first attack for all the additional ones, and this includes all sources of added damage, including Nukitsuke dice. At least I think that's how I intended it. It's, unfortunately, been a long time since I looked at this!
koiulpoi 12-01-08, 10:09 AM	Dude, thank you for bringing this class into our lives. Very awesome, very fun, incredible... i MUST play test this! I'm between Dementia Summoner (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=752891&page=2) and this one. I'd actually really like to get some feedback on this decision but that's not very important really :D . My small iffyness is this: Delay the slash is cool for cinematic purposes and Hold the Slash which i must say is awesome and also Transfer the slash. The effects than can be integrated while using Delay the Slash is great but maybe it should grant a small bonus? Maybe deal an additional 1d8 per round delayed that might be progressive or something, i think it's something to think about. Everything else looks good although some things might be better to be made "times per encounter" not per day such as: Transfer the Slash and Distance Slash. My 2 cents. :D Did you ever test this class out? If so, what did you think? I'll think on your suggestions.