Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BriwaOutrider 06-22-07, 11:32 PM	I am brand new to D&D, and I'm loving it. I have a fairly strong imagination, so the storytelling/roleplaying elements of it are a blast for me. I created a fighter with the advice of my cousin who introduced me to D&D, but I also have gotten the players handbook. As I'm reading through it, I realize more and more things that my cousin fails to do, breaking some major rules to the game. I want to make a fresh charector (sp?) that follows all of the rules and details to the letter. I don't know why, I just want to do it right if I'm going to do it. My question is, which classes of the basic ones are main damage dealers? EDIT: I have read through the PHB for a while, and I have settled on a rouge. After reading about rangers and rouges, I'm siding with rouges, but I want to be a ranged rouge. I'm going to be bow oriented, and I'm wondering how I go about this? Just focus my feats on that? What else do you do the make him stronger at one type of combat? Thanks, Briwa PS: I don't live in a large town, and there aren't any game shops here. What can I do to get involved with other D&D players online to do campaigns through IM, or other means? Does anyone do this?
Tallow 06-22-07, 11:52 PM	Fighter or Barbarian would be your best bets for straight simple damage dealing on a physical, melee combat level. You could also optimize your fighter to be a bow specialist and take the prestige Class Order of the Bow Initiate later on. This essentially allows you to be a machine gun with a bow, and be able to make a bow attack while being threatened without provoking an attack of opportunity (I believe that's still how it works in v3.5?) Anyways. Pick one of those classes, pick Half-Orc (for the +2 Strength bonus), maximize your strength based on how your DM lets you create your ability scores, pick a two handed weapon, take weapon focus and weapon specialization at 4th level, take power attack, etc. You get the idea. Look for the feats (and fighters get a ton of them - by 20th level you should have 18 feats if you play a human fighter, or 17 if a half-orc fighter.) Andy
claypigeons 06-23-07, 12:00 AM	For pure melee damage, I would say rogue. If you go with the two-weapon fighting tree, you get 6 attacks, doing +10d6 damage each at level 19. But that's misleading... Rogues have a harder time hitting high AC foes than a fighter. And they aren't as resilient. Rogue16/Fighter4 is actually pretty decent for a core-only build. If you can find a way to fight your favored enemies often, you could play a ranger with the melee combat focus. That can kick out lots of damage, has better survivablity than the base rogue, and still have a lot of skill points to deal with. Casters can throw out a lot of damage too, but it's elemental. The best core class for that is the sorcerer. From a destruction standpoint, the extra spells per day make a lot of difference. It should be noted, however, that damage from spells is inferior to using them for utility. A wizard tossing out a grease spell does more harm to a group of enemies than if he'd cast Magic Missile...
Tallow 06-23-07, 12:21 AM	The only problem with a Rogue, is that the sneak attack only works against creatures that are susceptible to critical attacks. Undead, Plants, Oozes, Constructs and others are immune to critical attacks, and thus immune to sneak attacks. The lower base attack bonus also makes it more difficult to pull it off. Especially at lower levels, you will not be a damage dealer. I'd say until about 9th level you won't come into your own as a damage dealing rogue, and then you are dependent on flanking and somehow negating dex bonus to AC on your opponent. If you want straight damage from the get go, Fighter or Barbarian is the way to go. Barbarian has Rage which gives a boost to STR and CON, which also affects to hit rolls and damage rolls. There are prestige classes, feats, spells, and magic weapon/item abilities that grant you sneak attack and/or critical abilities against various creature types that are immune to such as well.
Leress 06-23-07, 12:34 AM	If you are going rogue, don't only rely on your sneak attack to deal damage and getting pass foes. Use your skills as well, like Use Magic Device, tumble, etc. The rogue is more of a class that uses their brain more than their might when fighting foes. Use alchemical items like tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fire. You have many options open to you when you play a rogue don't rely on just one
claypigeons 06-23-07, 12:53 AM	The only problem with a Rogue, is that the sneak attack only works against creatures that are susceptible to critical attacks. Undead, Plants, Oozes, Constructs and others are immune to critical attacks, and thus immune to sneak attacks. The lower base attack bonus also makes it more difficult to pull it off. Especially at lower levels, you will not be a damage dealer. I'd say until about 9th level you won't come into your own as a damage dealing rogue, and then you are dependent on flanking and somehow negating dex bonus to AC on your opponent. Aye, sneak attack doesn't work against everything. And rogues have a lower BAB as well, which makes it a little more difficult to hit. But, from a purely damage-dealing point of view, they are the masters. 60d6 if all the attacks hit is potent. But, as stated, there is a lot more that goes into it and just damage, which is why I made a couple other points. Barbarians are, generally, the most consistent damage dealers. Fighters come next. Rage is really nice. Outside core,though, with all the newer fighter feats, I believe fighters come out ahead...
dungeoneerphil 06-23-07, 02:08 AM	Taking the various caveats mentioned by previous posters as read, I'd recommend maxing out the Bluff skill, since bluffing is handy for creating distractions (enabling you to hide and thus get the drop on a foe, sneak-attacking him) and feinting too. You could do worse than max out Hide, Move Silently and Intimidate too. The first two allow you to catch the enemy unawares; Intimidate, if used wisely, can induce cowering, and thus deprive the enemy of the Dex bonus to AC. If you really want to munchkin out, then make him human (for that bonus feat) and go for the following: Improved Initiative (greater chance of catching the enemy flat-footed) Combat Expertise (helpful since you're largely limited to light armour, and it's also a prerequisite for the next feat) Improved Feint (makes it easier to feint and thus deprive the enemy of his Dexterity bonus, allowing more sneak attacks) Skill Focus (Bluff) (improving the chance of feinting) Persuasive (ditto, also helps with Intimidate). Of course, the real important thing is teamwork. Get the fighter or other brick to grapple the enemy and pin him for sneak attacking. Or perhaps encourage spellcasters to scare the foe with fear-inducing magic. Flank the enemy. Gameplay will be all the better for effective tactics!
Myst_the_Moonscout 06-23-07, 02:13 AM	PS: I don't live in a large town, and there aren't any game shops here. What can I do to get involved with other D&D players online to do campaigns through IM, or other means? Does anyone do this? This community has a play-by-post forum called Real Adventures, as well as a couple others I think. It's basically DnD and other games played over these boards by posts, with online dice rollers. The speed is very slow, but it's a good way to get familiarized with the rules. Many DM's are patient and dont' mind working with new players. Several games I'm in right now are in my sig, so you can look over those if you want to see what it's all about. There isn't much action there right now though as we are in the process of getting new overseers for the forum. The Gamer Classifides forum also often has notices for online chatroom games if you want to look there too.
Twylyght 06-23-07, 03:25 AM	Seeing as you think youd like to try out a rogue, if you feel comfortable looking in to multi-classing, using only the PHB a Fighter/Rogue is a pretty good melee type character. Fighter 4/Rogue 16 as a final destination, puts you only +3 behind a full fighters attack bonus AND gives you 8d6 sneak attack. And your still free to go with an agile dex style, or an armored tank stye. Barbarian 4/Rogue 16 Can be just as fun. Not only does this raise your trap sense to the same level of a pure rogues, it can give you improved uncanny dodge a bit earlier than a pure rogue, it increases yor movement by 10 feet, and would let you rage 2/day. The move can get you into flanking (or run away!) that much quicker, and the rage bonus would not only increase your damage, but go a good ways of compensating for your slight loss of base attack bonus. Also the d12 hit dice on those 4 levels of barbarian help beef you up a little from you rogue hitdice, not an amazing amount but helpfull. I cant tell you how many time I would of given my horses weight in gold for just another couple of hitpoints lol. Either of these can do quite well with ranged attacks if youd like. Ranged can be somewhat harder to set your sneak attacks up with since you can't flank, so keep that in mind. Its also good to keep a option for a melee fallback open, since the baddies dont always comply and stand out there waiting to be shot ;) Thrown weapons are an good option, if you want to ranged fight as a rogue. True they have less range than projectile weapons, but sneak attacks are limited to 30 feet anyway, so if you plan to use sneak attacks from range, your not loosing much. Also they will have strength bonuses to damage by default, and most of them are also melee weapons so if someone gets close while you have one in hand, your ready to go. The quick draw feat lets you draw weapons as a free action and this goes very well with thrown weapons! Remember if you decide to use quick draw for throwing weapons, to declare your drawing another weapon after you take your last attack for the round, that keeps you armed when its not your turn, allowing you to take attacks of oppertunity if one becomes available. A halfling with a stash of hand axes or daggers can do alot of damage fast. They get +1 to attack from size modifier, a +1 with all thrown weapons, tack on the point blank shot and weapon focus feats, and youve got an additional +4 to hit with thrown weapons within 30 feet, nice how thats exactly the limits of sneak attack dont you think? :) If the baddies close with you youve already got weapon in hand already and your certainly no slouch upclose. Once the fight enters melee, establish flanking if you can, then make them pay for messing with you. If you do have a a Complete Warrioir book available, the "Improved Toughness" feat would be really handy in either of those builds to help offset your rogue hitdie.
Dark1ord 06-23-07, 08:09 AM	You could also optimize your fighter to be a bow specialist and take the prestige Class Order of the Bow Initiate later on. This essentially allows you to be a machine gun with a bow, and be able to make a bow attack while being threatened without provoking an attack of opportunity (I believe that's still how it works in v3.5?) sorry, gotta say this: please don't take OotBI - "ranged precision" is a standard action, and a fighter-archer who stayed fighter would out-do OotBI (do the math or trust me, hehe).
Bopple 06-23-07, 08:25 AM	For archer, Ranger+Scout with Swift Hunter is the obvious choice. If you have core only, a straight fighter or ranger is the one you should choose. Rogues make lousy archers.
The_Shaman 06-23-07, 09:52 AM	Main damage dealers? Barbarians in melee, wizards or sorcerers (if they have to) with magic, rogues when they flank, and I would say druids (when wildshaped) also make the cut. Psions and wilders are on the level of mages, but they need to be more careful about conserving their powers. Archery is, by and large, not a damage slugfest although it can be quite potent. Rogues can do it well as snipers, but as they can not flank with it (1 exception - peerless archer, more on that later) If you want to make an archer, the below might help: Classes: - ranger - good skills, FE bonuses help with damage (afaik FE even adds to manyshot), some ranger feats for free, CAdv and CoRuin have some good swift spells to enchant your arrows (not to mention classics like hunter's mercy, hmmm). Almost the only way to get the feats without meeting the prerequisites (if, say, you are heavy reliant on wis for some reason). For multiclassing, lvl 6 is a good breakoff point. - Edit: ranger/scouts are a good combo for mobile characters, but for pure damage you will often prefer full attack (so no skirmish for you). Still, ranger 17 / scout 3 or ranger 16/scout 4 is usually a good universal combo, losing only on spellcasting. - fighter: feats, and lots of them. Weapon specialization and the mastery it allows are a good reason to get 4 levels of fighters in any build. More levels are optional - cleric: strange but true - some of their spells, esp. the elf domain in FRCS are good for archers. Wisdom + zen archery allows for good attack, and it makes them somewhat effective - at least at first. 4 levels don't hurt at all, except for the loss of a single BAB point. The elf and war domains (free WFocus and PB Shot) are imo the best choice for an archer cleric. Consider the PrC variant of the ranger in UA or the SRD if you want to stress your combat. If not... Cleric 20 is seldom weak, and PrCs can help. - arcanists - generally not a good idea - they have much better way to use their powers, but with the reserve feats in CMage an archery "gish" (multiclass with high BAB and good spells) is quite powerful. AVOID getting in Arcane archer past the level which gives you imbue arrow (2, I think). Battlefield control and archery are a killer combo. - rogue/ninja - more damage to flat-footed opponents, and eventually sniping becomes a useful tactic. The 30 ft. range is a pain, though. Consider the Greater Manyshot feat from the SRD / XPH (it is not a psionic feat, dunno why they have it there). Any number of levels can work, but for me rogue 4 is a great addition to any build (evasion, many skill pts, +2d6 SA and uncanny dodge for 4 d6s and a single point of BAB loss - why not?). - psionicists: the Psychic warrior with zen archery and a few powers makes a great archer, and the psychic rogue gets enough SA dice to be scary. PrCs: - Deepwood sniper: oldie but goodie, from the 3.0 Masters of the wild. If you clear some of the moss off (in 3.0 keen and imp. critical stacked, and it essentially gives both) it is a useful class if you have the spot skill to make use of the long-range archery. If the DM is not a metagaming freak who starts churning out archery-resistant enemies, he will cry every time you confirm a critical :D Hail burst weapons! - Peerless archer: my favourite, from 3.25? Silver Marches. A feat-intensive bowslinger, it provides some nifty sneak attack dice with bows and allows you to manufacture magic-equivalent arrows. Even better, it allows a form of power attack with bows and allows you to treat them as reach weapons. Check it out. - Justice of Weald and Woe: weird, I could have sworn they should have made this elven-only. A cross between a ranger and assassin with some of their spells, it gives you a lot of tricks with the longbow, and eventually even allows you to make arrow death attacks. Medium BAB is a bit of a downer, though. - Nightsong enforcer: decent sniper material, good BAB, 4 SA dice for the price of common stealth skills, evasion, and a decent feat (imp. initiative). Unless you have to be the skillmonkey, it is good for any stealth character. Equipment and feats: PB shot is important as a prerequisite for practically anything archery-related, and precise shot is great when the meats... ops, meleers engage the enemy, plus it qualifies you to use splitting weapons. As for splitting weapons, they are detailed in CoRuin and are your imo best option. The rest of the feats... rapid shot (ideally improved, but -2 should not be an incredible penalty) is imo great when you can do full attacks, and greater manyshot (esp if you have some sort of precision damage applied) when you can not..
Tallow 06-23-07, 11:04 AM	For archer, Ranger+Scout with Swift Hunter is the obvious choice. If you have core only, a straight fighter or ranger is the one you should choose. Rogues make lousy archers. Not so, I have a friend who made a Barbarian 1/Rogue 10/Deepwood Sniper 4, and he absolutely is a machine gun! At point blank range, he is insane, as he gets sneak attack, and should he crit... Woo! I remember once, Carl (the player who plays Stil) was not there, so I was playing his character (we do that so nobody loses experience) and rolled 3 crits and a normal hit with improved invisibility. He almost did over 150 damage in a single round, with a bow. Andy
Bopple 06-23-07, 01:11 PM	If you rolled 3 crits and 1 normal hit as a 15th lvl deepwood sniper, 150 dmg is far from good. Let's take a look at Fighter 12/Deepwood Sniper 3; Base damage = 19.5 = 4.5(bow damage dice 1d8) +1(Point Blank Shot) +4(Greater Weapon Specialization) +2(Ranged Weapon Mastery) +4(Str) +4(Enhance) And let's calculate 3 crits and 1 normal hit; Total damage = 252.5 = {(base damage)x4}x3 +(base damage) I haven't even added damage dice by weapon special abilities, yet. And I don't need invisibility and sneak-attack which are very conditional and quite unreliable at that lvl. Or, Let's take a look at Ranger 11/Scout 4 You can skirmish and shoot 3 arrows with Greater Manyshot. With 3 critical hits you can deal; 184.5 = [{4.5(bow base damage 1d8) +1(Point Blank Shot) +4(Str) +4(Enhance)}x3]x3 +21(improved skirmish 6d6)x3 Again, I haven't added weapon special abilities or Favored Enemy Damage and I don't need invisibility. With 2 lvls of deepwood sniper, it's goes upto about 220.
Twylyght 06-23-07, 03:27 PM	If we want to dig outside of the PHB for damage at range, there the master thrower and orcish shotputs.... that gives you a thrown weapon at 2d6, 17-20, x4. You can also be hitting 2 opponents on each attack.
The_Shaman 06-23-07, 05:50 PM	Or EWM/master thrower and Chakram. With Chakram ricochet (Champions of Ruin) you can do some pretty slick Sneak Attack stuff. Still, if they are not returning it might be a bit weird going around with a big bowling bag or the like ;) Not exactly PHB stuff, though, but we are moving out of that territory quite quickly.
LoneFlame 06-23-07, 06:18 PM	If you really like the skills and class features of the Rogue, but also like to do some hardcore combat that would involve undead, constructs, ect., I'd say forget about Sneak Attack and break out the Fighter Feat Variant for the Rogue(in Unearth Arcana). You trade off getting Sneak Attack for Fighter Feats, exactly as the Fighter gets them. You won't have the Base Attack bonus of the Fighter, but at least you have its feats and progression.
aotrscommander 06-23-07, 06:36 PM	- Deepwood sniper: oldie but goodie, from the 3.0 Masters of the wild. If you clear some of the moss off (in 3.0 keen and imp. critical stacked, and it essentially gives both) it is a useful class if you have the spot skill to make use of the long-range archery. If the DM is not a metagaming freak who starts churning out archery-resistant enemies, he will cry every time you confirm a critical :D Hail burst weapons! *Twitch* *Twitch* Yes. He will. Trust me on this one. *Shudder*
Tallow 06-23-07, 06:38 PM	sorry, gotta say this: please don't take OotBI - "ranged precision" is a standard action, and a fighter-archer who stayed fighter would out-do OotBI (do the math or trust me, hehe). Um, I was refering to the ability "close combat shot." I don't care about ranged precision for damage doing with this class. Andy
The_Shaman 06-23-07, 07:01 PM	Being able to fire in melee without AoOs, right? Justices get that, rangers have it as a lvl 1 spell, EWMs have it with the exotic bows, and peerless archers treat the bow as a reach weapon. It is useful, but hardly unique. The 60-foot SAs would have been nice if the class gave a SA level or two.
Twylyght 06-23-07, 07:56 PM	Or EWM/master thrower and Chakram. With Chakram ricochet (Champions of Ruin) you can do some pretty slick Sneak Attack stuff. Still, if they are not returning it might be a bit weird going around with a big bowling bag or the like ;) Not exactly PHB stuff, though, but we are moving out of that territory quite quickly. Lol so true. When I was playing the shotput master thrower it was a half ogre (I was using half orc stats with powerful build added for a +1 level adjustment). I was using just a single canon ball (large shotput). It was magical, a +2 Thundering large shotput of distance and returning. But still only got to use it once a round. To fill in my extra attacks each round i wore a large wicker basket as a backpack, like a quiver, and I filled it with all the junk weapons we looted during the adventure. I had the quick draw and throw anything feats. So during my round I was making 6 attacks (3 base main hands, 2 off hand, and a rapid shot main hand), only picture the flying barage of random melee weapons, a round might see the canon ball, a battle axe, a bastard sword, a heavy pick, a light flail, hand axe, and a shortsword all flying through the air towards some chump about to catch an entire armory.