Battle Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Mage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ff6shadow
10-22-07, 02:12 PM Just a base class I'm planning on using in my next campaign. Based of the Warmage from Complete Arcane. Just trying to get some opinions on the overall power of the class.

Battle Mage
HD - d8
Class Skills
Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Tactics and War), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spelcraft, Spot
Skill Points per level - 2 + Int

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities
1 +0 +1 +0 +2 Armored Mage (Light)
2 +1 +1 +0 +3 Reflexive Shield
3 +1 +2 +1 +3 Expanded Learning
4 +2 +2 +1 +4
5 +2 +3 +1 +4 Battle Talent +1
6 +3 +3 +2 +5 Bonus Feat
7 +3 +3 +2 +5 Expanded Learning
8 +4 +4 +2 +6 Counter Fire
9 +4 +4 +3 +6 Armored Mage (Medium)
10 +5 +5 +3 +7 Battle Talent +2
11 +5 +5 +3 +7 Expanded Learning
12 +6 +6 +4 +8 Bonus Feat
13 +6 +6 +4 +8
14 +7 +6 +4 +9
15 +7 +7 +5 +9 Expanded Learning, Battle Talent +3
16 +8 +7 +5 +10 Armored Mage (Heavy)
17 +8 +8 +5 +10
18 +9 +8 +6 +11 Bonus Feat
19 +9 +9 +6 +11 Expanded Learning
20 +10 +9 +6 +12 Battle Talent +4

Class Abilities
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A battle mage is proficient with all simple weapons and one martial weapon. He is also proficient with all light armor, bucklers, and light shields.

Spellcasting: To cast a spell, the Battle Mage must have an Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Battle Mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Battle Mage’s Charisma modifier.

Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause his spell to fail. A battle mage's limited focus and specializaed training allows him to avoid arcane spell failure as long as he sticks to light armor, light shields, and bucklers. At 9th level, he gains proficiency with medium armor and heavy shields, as well as the ability to ignore their arcane spell failure. The same goes for heavy armor at level 16.

Reflexive Shield: As an immediate action, in response to an attack or spell that allows a saving throw, a battle mage can expend a spell slot to gain a bonus to AC or saving throws equal to the level of the sacrificed spell slot until his next round.

Expanded Learning:At 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level, a battle mage can expand his capabilities, addiing an additional spell to his spell list. He can add any abjuration or evocation spell from the wizard/sorcerer, cleric, or druid spell list to his spell list. Alternatively, he can select any other spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list of any school, but that spell is considered one level higher than normal.

Battle Talent: Due to his training, a warmage is more proficient in melee than most arcane casters. He add this bonus to his BAB for the purpose of itinerate attacks from high base attack bonus and chances to hit with attacls, but not feat or prestige class prerequisites. This ability can not raise effective base attack bonus to higher than your class level.

Bonus Feat: These bonus feats are selected from the Fighter bonus feat list, any metamagic feat, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, or Greater Spell Penetration.

Counter Fire: Whenever a visible foe within 60ft targets you with a ranged attack or spell, you can respond with a magical counter attack. This ability is used as an immediate action and requires the sacrifices of an unused spell slot. This attack requires a ranged touch attack to hit, deals force damage, ignores spells resistance, and deals 1d6 damage per level of the spell slot used. Both attacks resolve simultaneously, and neither can disrupt each other.

Spells Per Day

Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 5 3 - - - - - - - -
2 6 4 - - - - - - - -
3 6 5 2 - - - - - - -
4 6 6 3 - - - - - - -
5 6 6 4 2 - - - - - -
6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - -
7 6 6 6 4 2 - - - - -
8 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - -
9 6 6 6 6 4 2 - - - -
10 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - -
11 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 - - -
12 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - -
13 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 - -
14 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - -
15 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 -
16 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 -
17 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2
18 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
19 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
20 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

Spell List
* From the Complete Arcane
** From the Players Handbook II
*** From the Spell Compendium

0 Level - Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Electrical Jolt***, Flare, Light, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance, Sonic Snap***

1st level - Alarm, Burning Hands, Dispel Ward***, Endure Elements, Ice Dagger***, Magic Missile, Persistent Blade***, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Sonic Blast***

2nd level - Blast of Force***, Dispelling Touch**, Flaming Sphere, Force Ladder***, Gust of Wind, Obscure Object, Protection From Arrows, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Shatter

3rd level - Chain Missile***, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Nondetection, Protection From Energy, Resonating Bolt*, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall

4th level - Defenestrating Sphere*, Dimensional Anchor, Ice Storm, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Resilient Sphere, Mass Resist Energy*, Slashing Dispel**, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wingbind***

5th level - Cone of Cold, Dismissal, Greater Electrical Vengeance**, Mage's Private Sanctum, Permanency, Prismatic Ray, Reciprocal Gyre*, Sending, Sonic Shield**, Wall of Force

6th level - Antimagic Field, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Energy Immunity*, Freezing Sphere, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Repulsion, Ruby Ray of Reversal***, Thunder Field**

7th level - Antimagic Ray***, Delayed Blast Fireball, Energy Immunity, Ice Claw, Ironguard***, Mage's Sword, Prismatic Spray, Radiant Assault***, Sequester, Spell Turning

8th level - Dimensional Lock, Field of Icy Razors, Lightning Ring***, Mind Blank, Polar Ray, Prismatic Wall, Protection from Spells, Greater Shout, Sunburst

9th level - Absorption*, Detonate**, Effulgent Epuration***, Instant Refuge, Mage's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Reality Maelstrom, Reaving Dispel*, Wish

Please, let me know what you think.

[Edit]
As a side note, the classes spell progression is the one I use in my campaign. The sorcerer and all similar spontaneous casters use an identical progression for determining when they gain their next level of spells. I never found the delay to be remotely fair or balanced. If you disagree with me on this point, simply say so in your post and treat it as though it has the sorcerer spell progression.

Edit Reasons: Spelling and formatting and new note.
vorpo
10-22-07, 02:22 PM All spontaneous pure casters don't get 2nd lvl spells till lvl 4, you give them that 1 lvl earlier. The idea is to have some draw back for being able to spontaneously cast spells.

D8 instead of d6, has slightly better fort and can wear heavy armor.

To sum up, overpowered.
ff6shadow
10-22-07, 02:33 PM First, thank you for your input.

Honestly, the delayed spell casting for spontaneous casters for balance issues is a load of crap. They already have a hard time using metamagic. I've boost all spontaneous casters in this manner.

Additionally, did you look the spells list. If I offered the entire wizard spell list, I'd completely agree with you. But the list is very restrictive.
vorpo
10-22-07, 03:47 PM First, thank you for your input.

Honestly, the delayed spell casting for spontaneous casters for balance issues is a load of crap. They already have a hard time using metamagic. I've boost all spontaneous casters in this manner.

Additionally, did you look the spells list. If I offered the entire wizard spell list, I'd completely agree with you. But the list is very restrictive.

First of all, there is a variant introduced in PH2 (I think) that sacrifice familiar for the ability to use metamagic without increasing in casting time. There is also a feat in CAr (I think as well) that does the same thing.

As for your spell list, it's to my understanding you based this class on warmage, not wizard. Compared to warmage, your list isn't much worse (if at all). Seriously, d8 and casting in heavy armor and better fort save, still overpowered IMO.
theveggiejerk
10-23-07, 05:12 PM hmmm I'd say this is a bit overpowered too. not because of the heavy armor as a warmage can cast in heavy armor too with that battle mage feat. The whole being a spontaneous caster and getting spells per day as a wizard though is a little sketchy though.
bkdubs123
10-23-07, 05:51 PM Well, that and you pretty much give them Medium BAB, but you know what, I think its perfectly fine. You wanna know why?

Cleric. Spell and War domains.

Hmm... slightly staggered arcane spellcasting ability, full divine spellcasting, more spells per day, actual medium base attack, full casting in heavy armor, martial weapon proficiencies AND focus. What does a Battle Mage have on the Cleric?

Warmage is patheticly weak compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer. So giving it boosts here and there are perfectly welcome in my opinion.
vorpo
10-24-07, 10:56 AM So you are comparing to one of the top classes (if not THE top class). You will have to boost every other class there is then.

Still remember that arcane spells are stronger offensively (as opposed to cleric's buff-himself-to-be-uber spells) Spontaneous casters should not gain 2nd lvl spell at clvl 3
RobbyPants
10-24-07, 11:19 AM All in all, I like this class, and will probably use a slight variant (using my suggestions below :P). Overall, nice job :D

Just a few suggestions:

I'll jump on the bandwagon and suggest just using the Sorcerer's spells-per-day table. I know you said you don't want to gimp the progression, but I still feel it's necessary.

If you want to remove the "intermediate" Fort save progression, consider setting it to poor, and adding in the Combat Fortitude (or whatever it's called) that the scout gets. In the end, it's about the same (three +1 bonuses over the 20 levels), but it has a pre-published precidence.

Battle talent is interesting (and not too powerful), but it might not be too crazy to simply give them 3/4 BAB.

I love the reflexive shield ability. It adds some protective ability to the class and gives them some versitilty.

Also, a bit of a nitpick: the special abilities in the post will read easier if you make the ability name bold and/or seperate each ability with one line of white space ;)
serow_#R
10-24-07, 12:02 PM Just some casual observations from my part: the name Battle Mage says "gish" to me. And when I think of a balanced gish base class, I think of Psychic Warrior. So, in comparison...

1. The spell list is still so... Warmage-ish. I'd suggest putting in more buff spells and removing some of the direct-damage spells.
2. As a gish, you're expected to be able to front-line. I'd suggest raising the Fortitude save to strong. A front-liner with a weak Fortitude save is just asking for it.
3. BAB is important for qualifying for feats early enough! I'd suggest raising it to medium.
4. The casting stat was not stated, but I assume it's based off Charisma like the Warmage? In that case, perhaps dropping the Will save to weak might be in order. This is also somewhat to balance the fact that this class gets full 9th level spells by introducing some form of MAD. In comparison, the PW only gets up to level 6 powers, but his casting stat is Wisdom, which helps a little to offset the weak Will save.
5. I don't have suggestions on how to break up the dead levels, but maybe other posters can help with that.
RobbyPants
10-24-07, 12:19 PM 5. I don't have suggestions on how to break up the dead levels, but maybe other posters can help with that.
One nice way to do it is to only have dead levels on a level that you get access to a new spell level. For example, if you're using the sorcerer casting progression, then you get access to new spell levels every even level (except for 2nd and 20th). I'd consider having any dead levels you might have on those levels. That way, while you might not get some awesome ability, at least you get access to an enitre new set of spells.

Also, putting in a cool 20th level capstone is also nice incentive to keep them from multiclassing out into a PrC with cooler abilities. I'm not saying the PrCs are bad, but rather, it's nice to have valid choices, as opposed to "only noobs play battle mage 20! You should multiclass!"
ff6shadow
12-08-07, 03:20 AM Sorry for everybody who responded, I'd forgotten about posting this here.

Seems like everybody Wants Sorcerer spell progression. In anormal campaign, I'm going to say, yeah, he should have the sorcerer progresion. When I first wrote is up, I was balancing based on a alteration in my campaigns. I give sorcerers similar classes the same progression. It's just somethign I never found fair to delay.

RobbyPants, the intermediate progression is directly based on that Combat Fortitude ability. I just went ahead and folded it into the numbers. As for 3/4 BAB, I didn't reall want to push it that far. It allows for much better accuracy and extra attacks, but keeps them out of prestige classes and feats for a longer time. And Reflexive Shield is definetly my favorite ability of the class. The last thing you've mentioned is the capstone ability. I figured that getting that Expanded Learning at 19th level was enough reason to make it into the late part of the class. And once you've gone that far, you may as well finish it. As a side, note, I've also just realized that final Expanded LEarning could be used to learn Miracle. Definetly something I hand't thought of.

serow_#R
1. The spell list is War Mage-ish on purpose. He is based off the War Mage, and my basic though was to remove the Conjuration spells and add the protective elements of abjuration. After that, I tried to add a bite of battlefield control spells. The end result being a War Mage look alike, who can do more than just blast opponents to death.

2. Addressed above, I didn't intend him as a Gish, Just a spellcaster who could be useful to an army on the battlefield.

3. As I mentioned to RobbyPants, the base attack bonus was done that way on purpose, to keep them from qualifying for feats and prestige classes before a wizard could.

4. I've editted it in now. Yeah, casting was Charisma.

5. I'm not to worried about dead levels. If you use it as written, half of them occur on levels that are learning new spell levels. If you switch it back to Sorcerer progression, the same is true. SO either way, it only has two truely dead levels.

Again, I apologize to those who posted and never got my response. As I said, I had forgotten about posting it.
teshen
12-08-07, 12:25 PM Despite using the underpowered warmage as a chasis, I think a better judge would be the battle sorcerer variant with possibly the spontaneous metamagic feature...

That would mean that they both get d8 hit die and an average base attack and light armor casting. Battle sorcerer would have a slight edge there for a while because he could qualify for feats that use base attack easier. For the cost of a feat and mythril armor a sorcerer effectively has casting in heavy armor... and at the levels you get it, it's about even.

Your battle mage gets spells faster so you can get into some prcs faster. You'll get more spells than a battle sorcerer, but he can always pick his spells. I'd say your spellcasting is better, but the option to have what you want verses having everything laid out for you is attractive... and expanded learning can make up for a lot of that...

You've got better saves than a battle sorcerer... and they'll both have to work on charisma, constitution, and strength to be effective... on the whole, I'm not going to scream broken, but you need to scale a few things back to be fair. I don't really believe that with the nature of saves and only giving a caster direct damage really makes them a powerhouse... arcane casting's ability to do awesome things is rarely based on direct damage spells.

If it really matters to you, go conjuration and abjuration instead of evocation and abjuration. Don't give armor and rip a few abilities from abjurant champion and throw them into a 20 level warmage-like build... see how that turns out. I think it would work out better for your concept.
ff6shadow
12-16-07, 02:10 PM teshen, I had orginially planned a conjuration and abjuration specialist, until i really got to looking at the school of conjuration. It's such a large school, that it really deserves it's own class along this line.

Also, I am aware that direct damage is a very sub-par method for arcanists to pursue. That is the reason that the war mage as printed is aweful. This is basically the war mage with his conjuration replaced with abjuration, giving him far more utility beyond kill all opposition. Then I added some abilities that go with the flavor I intended the class the have. After all of that, I limited his spell list to a variety of utility and combat spells.

Finally, thank you for your comments.
ff6shadow
12-25-07, 10:07 AM No more interest in this?
ff6shadow
12-28-07, 01:54 PM :mage: :bump:
ff6shadow
01-19-08, 11:53 AM :mage: One more :bump: for comments.

As for playtesting, I've got a playr who is having a blast. Doesn't seem any more powerful then the rest of the party. We've made it to 9 so far.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ff6shadow 10-22-07, 02:12 PM	Just a base class I'm planning on using in my next campaign. Based of the Warmage from Complete Arcane. Just trying to get some opinions on the overall power of the class. Battle Mage HD - d8 Class Skills Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Tactics and War), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spelcraft, Spot Skill Points per level - 2 + Int Level BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1 +0 +1 +0 +2 Armored Mage (Light) 2 +1 +1 +0 +3 Reflexive Shield 3 +1 +2 +1 +3 Expanded Learning 4 +2 +2 +1 +4 5 +2 +3 +1 +4 Battle Talent +1 6 +3 +3 +2 +5 Bonus Feat 7 +3 +3 +2 +5 Expanded Learning 8 +4 +4 +2 +6 Counter Fire 9 +4 +4 +3 +6 Armored Mage (Medium) 10 +5 +5 +3 +7 Battle Talent +2 11 +5 +5 +3 +7 Expanded Learning 12 +6 +6 +4 +8 Bonus Feat 13 +6 +6 +4 +8 14 +7 +6 +4 +9 15 +7 +7 +5 +9 Expanded Learning, Battle Talent +3 16 +8 +7 +5 +10 Armored Mage (Heavy) 17 +8 +8 +5 +10 18 +9 +8 +6 +11 Bonus Feat 19 +9 +9 +6 +11 Expanded Learning 20 +10 +9 +6 +12 Battle Talent +4 Class Abilities Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A battle mage is proficient with all simple weapons and one martial weapon. He is also proficient with all light armor, bucklers, and light shields. Spellcasting: To cast a spell, the Battle Mage must have an Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Battle Mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Battle Mage’s Charisma modifier. Armored Mage: Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause his spell to fail. A battle mage's limited focus and specializaed training allows him to avoid arcane spell failure as long as he sticks to light armor, light shields, and bucklers. At 9th level, he gains proficiency with medium armor and heavy shields, as well as the ability to ignore their arcane spell failure. The same goes for heavy armor at level 16. Reflexive Shield: As an immediate action, in response to an attack or spell that allows a saving throw, a battle mage can expend a spell slot to gain a bonus to AC or saving throws equal to the level of the sacrificed spell slot until his next round. Expanded Learning:At 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level, a battle mage can expand his capabilities, addiing an additional spell to his spell list. He can add any abjuration or evocation spell from the wizard/sorcerer, cleric, or druid spell list to his spell list. Alternatively, he can select any other spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list of any school, but that spell is considered one level higher than normal. Battle Talent: Due to his training, a warmage is more proficient in melee than most arcane casters. He add this bonus to his BAB for the purpose of itinerate attacks from high base attack bonus and chances to hit with attacls, but not feat or prestige class prerequisites. This ability can not raise effective base attack bonus to higher than your class level. Bonus Feat: These bonus feats are selected from the Fighter bonus feat list, any metamagic feat, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, or Greater Spell Penetration. Counter Fire: Whenever a visible foe within 60ft targets you with a ranged attack or spell, you can respond with a magical counter attack. This ability is used as an immediate action and requires the sacrifices of an unused spell slot. This attack requires a ranged touch attack to hit, deals force damage, ignores spells resistance, and deals 1d6 damage per level of the spell slot used. Both attacks resolve simultaneously, and neither can disrupt each other. Spells Per Day Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2 6 4 - - - - - - - - 3 6 5 2 - - - - - - - 4 6 6 3 - - - - - - - 5 6 6 4 2 - - - - - - 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - - 7 6 6 6 4 2 - - - - - 8 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - 9 6 6 6 6 4 2 - - - - 10 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - 11 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 - - - 12 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - 13 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 - - 14 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - 15 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 - 16 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - 17 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 2 18 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Spell List * From the Complete Arcane From the Players Handbook II * From the Spell Compendium 0 Level - Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Electrical Jolt*, Flare, Light, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance, Sonic Snap* 1st level - Alarm, Burning Hands, Dispel Ward*, Endure Elements, Ice Dagger, Magic Missile, Persistent Blade, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Sonic Blast* 2nd level - Blast of Force*, Dispelling Touch, Flaming Sphere, Force Ladder*, Gust of Wind, Obscure Object, Protection From Arrows, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Shatter 3rd level - Chain Missile, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Nondetection, Protection From Energy, Resonating Bolt, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall 4th level - Defenestrating Sphere, Dimensional Anchor, Ice Storm, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Resilient Sphere, Mass Resist Energy, Slashing Dispel, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wingbind* 5th level - Cone of Cold, Dismissal, Greater Electrical Vengeance*, Mage's Private Sanctum, Permanency, Prismatic Ray, Reciprocal Gyre, Sending, Sonic Shield*, Wall of Force 6th level - Antimagic Field, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Energy Immunity, Freezing Sphere, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Repulsion, Ruby Ray of Reversal*, Thunder Field 7th level - Antimagic Ray*, Delayed Blast Fireball, Energy Immunity, Ice Claw, Ironguard, Mage's Sword, Prismatic Spray, Radiant Assault, Sequester, Spell Turning 8th level - Dimensional Lock, Field of Icy Razors, Lightning Ring, Mind Blank, Polar Ray, Prismatic Wall, Protection from Spells, Greater Shout, Sunburst 9th level - Absorption, Detonate, Effulgent Epuration, Instant Refuge, Mage's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Reality Maelstrom, Reaving Dispel, Wish Please, let me know what you think. [Edit] As a side note, the classes spell progression is the one I use in my campaign. The sorcerer and all similar spontaneous casters use an identical progression for determining when they gain their next level of spells. I never found the delay to be remotely fair or balanced. If you disagree with me on this point, simply say so in your post and treat it as though it has the sorcerer spell progression. Edit Reasons: Spelling and formatting and new note.
vorpo 10-22-07, 02:22 PM	All spontaneous pure casters don't get 2nd lvl spells till lvl 4, you give them that 1 lvl earlier. The idea is to have some draw back for being able to spontaneously cast spells. D8 instead of d6, has slightly better fort and can wear heavy armor. To sum up, overpowered.
ff6shadow 10-22-07, 02:33 PM	First, thank you for your input. Honestly, the delayed spell casting for spontaneous casters for balance issues is a load of crap. They already have a hard time using metamagic. I've boost all spontaneous casters in this manner. Additionally, did you look the spells list. If I offered the entire wizard spell list, I'd completely agree with you. But the list is very restrictive.
vorpo 10-22-07, 03:47 PM	First, thank you for your input. Honestly, the delayed spell casting for spontaneous casters for balance issues is a load of crap. They already have a hard time using metamagic. I've boost all spontaneous casters in this manner. Additionally, did you look the spells list. If I offered the entire wizard spell list, I'd completely agree with you. But the list is very restrictive. First of all, there is a variant introduced in PH2 (I think) that sacrifice familiar for the ability to use metamagic without increasing in casting time. There is also a feat in CAr (I think as well) that does the same thing. As for your spell list, it's to my understanding you based this class on warmage, not wizard. Compared to warmage, your list isn't much worse (if at all). Seriously, d8 and casting in heavy armor and better fort save, still overpowered IMO.
theveggiejerk 10-23-07, 05:12 PM	hmmm I'd say this is a bit overpowered too. not because of the heavy armor as a warmage can cast in heavy armor too with that battle mage feat. The whole being a spontaneous caster and getting spells per day as a wizard though is a little sketchy though.
bkdubs123 10-23-07, 05:51 PM	Well, that and you pretty much give them Medium BAB, but you know what, I think its perfectly fine. You wanna know why? Cleric. Spell and War domains. Hmm... slightly staggered arcane spellcasting ability, full divine spellcasting, more spells per day, actual medium base attack, full casting in heavy armor, martial weapon proficiencies AND focus. What does a Battle Mage have on the Cleric? Warmage is patheticly weak compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer. So giving it boosts here and there are perfectly welcome in my opinion.
vorpo 10-24-07, 10:56 AM	So you are comparing to one of the top classes (if not THE top class). You will have to boost every other class there is then. Still remember that arcane spells are stronger offensively (as opposed to cleric's buff-himself-to-be-uber spells) Spontaneous casters should not gain 2nd lvl spell at clvl 3
RobbyPants 10-24-07, 11:19 AM	All in all, I like this class, and will probably use a slight variant (using my suggestions below :P). Overall, nice job :D Just a few suggestions: I'll jump on the bandwagon and suggest just using the Sorcerer's spells-per-day table. I know you said you don't want to gimp the progression, but I still feel it's necessary. If you want to remove the "intermediate" Fort save progression, consider setting it to poor, and adding in the Combat Fortitude (or whatever it's called) that the scout gets. In the end, it's about the same (three +1 bonuses over the 20 levels), but it has a pre-published precidence. Battle talent is interesting (and not too powerful), but it might not be too crazy to simply give them 3/4 BAB. I love the reflexive shield ability. It adds some protective ability to the class and gives them some versitilty. Also, a bit of a nitpick: the special abilities in the post will read easier if you make the ability name bold and/or seperate each ability with one line of white space ;)
serow_#R 10-24-07, 12:02 PM	Just some casual observations from my part: the name Battle Mage says "gish" to me. And when I think of a balanced gish base class, I think of Psychic Warrior. So, in comparison... 1. The spell list is still so... Warmage-ish. I'd suggest putting in more buff spells and removing some of the direct-damage spells. 2. As a gish, you're expected to be able to front-line. I'd suggest raising the Fortitude save to strong. A front-liner with a weak Fortitude save is just asking for it. 3. BAB is important for qualifying for feats early enough! I'd suggest raising it to medium. 4. The casting stat was not stated, but I assume it's based off Charisma like the Warmage? In that case, perhaps dropping the Will save to weak might be in order. This is also somewhat to balance the fact that this class gets full 9th level spells by introducing some form of MAD. In comparison, the PW only gets up to level 6 powers, but his casting stat is Wisdom, which helps a little to offset the weak Will save. 5. I don't have suggestions on how to break up the dead levels, but maybe other posters can help with that.
RobbyPants 10-24-07, 12:19 PM	5. I don't have suggestions on how to break up the dead levels, but maybe other posters can help with that. One nice way to do it is to only have dead levels on a level that you get access to a new spell level. For example, if you're using the sorcerer casting progression, then you get access to new spell levels every even level (except for 2nd and 20th). I'd consider having any dead levels you might have on those levels. That way, while you might not get some awesome ability, at least you get access to an enitre new set of spells. Also, putting in a cool 20th level capstone is also nice incentive to keep them from multiclassing out into a PrC with cooler abilities. I'm not saying the PrCs are bad, but rather, it's nice to have valid choices, as opposed to "only noobs play battle mage 20! You should multiclass!"
ff6shadow 12-08-07, 03:20 AM	Sorry for everybody who responded, I'd forgotten about posting this here. Seems like everybody Wants Sorcerer spell progression. In anormal campaign, I'm going to say, yeah, he should have the sorcerer progresion. When I first wrote is up, I was balancing based on a alteration in my campaigns. I give sorcerers similar classes the same progression. It's just somethign I never found fair to delay. RobbyPants, the intermediate progression is directly based on that Combat Fortitude ability. I just went ahead and folded it into the numbers. As for 3/4 BAB, I didn't reall want to push it that far. It allows for much better accuracy and extra attacks, but keeps them out of prestige classes and feats for a longer time. And Reflexive Shield is definetly my favorite ability of the class. The last thing you've mentioned is the capstone ability. I figured that getting that Expanded Learning at 19th level was enough reason to make it into the late part of the class. And once you've gone that far, you may as well finish it. As a side, note, I've also just realized that final Expanded LEarning could be used to learn Miracle. Definetly something I hand't thought of. serow_#R 1. The spell list is War Mage-ish on purpose. He is based off the War Mage, and my basic though was to remove the Conjuration spells and add the protective elements of abjuration. After that, I tried to add a bite of battlefield control spells. The end result being a War Mage look alike, who can do more than just blast opponents to death. 2. Addressed above, I didn't intend him as a Gish, Just a spellcaster who could be useful to an army on the battlefield. 3. As I mentioned to RobbyPants, the base attack bonus was done that way on purpose, to keep them from qualifying for feats and prestige classes before a wizard could. 4. I've editted it in now. Yeah, casting was Charisma. 5. I'm not to worried about dead levels. If you use it as written, half of them occur on levels that are learning new spell levels. If you switch it back to Sorcerer progression, the same is true. SO either way, it only has two truely dead levels. Again, I apologize to those who posted and never got my response. As I said, I had forgotten about posting it.
teshen 12-08-07, 12:25 PM	Despite using the underpowered warmage as a chasis, I think a better judge would be the battle sorcerer variant with possibly the spontaneous metamagic feature... That would mean that they both get d8 hit die and an average base attack and light armor casting. Battle sorcerer would have a slight edge there for a while because he could qualify for feats that use base attack easier. For the cost of a feat and mythril armor a sorcerer effectively has casting in heavy armor... and at the levels you get it, it's about even. Your battle mage gets spells faster so you can get into some prcs faster. You'll get more spells than a battle sorcerer, but he can always pick his spells. I'd say your spellcasting is better, but the option to have what you want verses having everything laid out for you is attractive... and expanded learning can make up for a lot of that... You've got better saves than a battle sorcerer... and they'll both have to work on charisma, constitution, and strength to be effective... on the whole, I'm not going to scream broken, but you need to scale a few things back to be fair. I don't really believe that with the nature of saves and only giving a caster direct damage really makes them a powerhouse... arcane casting's ability to do awesome things is rarely based on direct damage spells. If it really matters to you, go conjuration and abjuration instead of evocation and abjuration. Don't give armor and rip a few abilities from abjurant champion and throw them into a 20 level warmage-like build... see how that turns out. I think it would work out better for your concept.
ff6shadow 12-16-07, 02:10 PM	teshen, I had orginially planned a conjuration and abjuration specialist, until i really got to looking at the school of conjuration. It's such a large school, that it really deserves it's own class along this line. Also, I am aware that direct damage is a very sub-par method for arcanists to pursue. That is the reason that the war mage as printed is aweful. This is basically the war mage with his conjuration replaced with abjuration, giving him far more utility beyond kill all opposition. Then I added some abilities that go with the flavor I intended the class the have. After all of that, I limited his spell list to a variety of utility and combat spells. Finally, thank you for your comments.
ff6shadow 12-25-07, 10:07 AM	No more interest in this?
ff6shadow 12-28-07, 01:54 PM	:mage: :bump:
ff6shadow 01-19-08, 11:53 AM	:mage: One more :bump: for comments. As for playtesting, I've got a playr who is having a blast. Doesn't seem any more powerful then the rest of the party. We've made it to 9 so far.