Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piropoint 06-22-07, 10:06 PM	I know I'm missing a lot (skills, HD, Weapon/Armor prof. etc.) But here is the basic progression of the newest 20 level base class that I'm working on. I would like some advice on balance throughout the level + ideas to increase/decreas power but keeping the same feel. Also, ideas to make this more customizable. Battle Magus Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Mage Grip +1 2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 1st Patchwork 3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Mage Grip +2 4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Flash 5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Mage Grip +3 6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +5 Force 7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +5 Mage Grip +4 8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +6 2nd Patchwork 9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +6 Mage Grip +5 10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +7 Shunt 11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +7 Mage Grip +6 12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +8 Arc 13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +8 Mage Grip +7 14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +9 3rd Patchwork 15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +9 Mage Grip +8 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +10 Speed 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Mage Grip +9 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Master ~ 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Mage Grip +10 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 4th Patchwork Mage Grip- At first level, weapons wielded by the ~ are treated as having a +1 enchantment bonus. This increases by +1 at third level and every odd level after that. Patchwork- At 2nd level, choose acid, cold, electric, fire, sonic, good, lawful, evil or chaotic. By forgoing the +1 enchantment bonus, you may treat damage you deal as the chosen type of energy. You gain access to a new energy type at 8th, 14th, and 20th level, By forgoing +2 of the enchantment bonus, you may choose two energy types, +3 for 3 energy types and so on. Note: you may not gain access to energy types that are opposed to your alignment. A neutral character may choose between evil or good and between chaotic or lawful but not both. Flash- At 4th level the ~ may forgo +1 enchantment bonus to stun his target for one round on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +2 enchantment bonus to Deafen his target for one round on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +3 enchantment bonus to Blind his oppenent for one round on a successful hit. Force- At 6th level the ~ may forgo +2 enchantment bonus in order to treat damage done by his weapon as force damage. Shunt- At 10 level the ~ may forgo +3 enchantment bonus to push his target back 5 feet on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +6 to push his target back 10 feet and +9 to push his target back 15 feet. Arc- At 12th level the ~ may forgo +4 enchantment bonus to have his attack affect an additional opponent within 15 feet. Roll separately for each target. Speed- At 16th level the ~ may forgo +5 enchantment bonus to make an extra attack with his weapon using his highest base attack bonus. Master Battle Magus- At 18th level the cost to add an effect to an attack reduces by +1 enchantment bonus, to a minimum of +1 enchantment bonus per added effect. Changes that will be made: (please read before bashing) ~Good Will and Fort saves instead of good Ref and Fort saves ~Allow saveing throws for Flash and Shunt ~Mage Grip will function like the Arcane Archer's enhance arrow ability. (except to all nonmagicle weapons) ~Mage Grip will most likey be devided into two parts, +5 for hit and damage only, and +5 to be "spent" on the enhancment abbilites. ~Speed will only be usable when makeing a full attack. ~Rewriteing patchwork (won't include "allignemnt energies" which don't exist). Concidering "deals an extra 1d6 points of ~ damage on a successful hit." instead of makeing all the damage of the choosen energy type.
OneWinged4ngel 06-22-07, 10:41 PM	Ewwww... I know I'm missing a lot (skills, HD, Weapon/Armor prof. etc.) So the base chassis is missing for some reason, so can't judge a good deal of the class... but oh well, it's not done. But here is the basic progression of my newest 20 level base class. I would like some advice on balance throughout the level + ideas to increase/decreas power but keeping the same feel. Battle Magas Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Mage Grip +1 2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 1st Patchwork 3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Mage Grip +2 4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Flash 5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Mage Grip +3 6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +5 Force 7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +5 Mage Grip +4 8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +6 2nd Patchwork 9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +6 Mage Grip +5 10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +7 Shunt 11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +7 Mage Grip +6 12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +8 Arc 13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +8 Mage Grip +7 14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +9 3rd Patchwork 15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +9 Mage Grip +8 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +10 Speed 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Mage Grip +9 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Master ~ 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Mage Grip +10 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 4th Patchwork Mage Grip- At first level, weapons wielded by the ~ are treated as having a +1 enchantment bonus. This increases by +1 at third level and every odd level after that. I think you mean "Enhancement" bonus. Patchwork- At 2nd level, choose acid, cold, electric, fire, sonic, good, lawful, evil or chaotic. By forgoing the +1 enchantment bonus, you may treat damage you deal as the chosen type of energy. You gain access to a new energy type at 8th, 14th, and 20th level, By forgoing +2 of the enchantment bonus, you may choose two energy types, +3 for 3 energy types and so on. Note: you may not gain access to energy types that are opposed to your alignment. A neutral character may choose between evil or good and between chaotic or lawful but not both. Written very sloppily. So I forego +1 "enchantment" bonus on some weapon, and treat ALL damage I deal as the chosen energy? Also, the "alignment" energies don't actually exist normally, so you have to describe what they are. Flash- At 4th level the ~ may forgo +1 enchantment bonus to stun his target for one round on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +2 enchantment bonus to Deafen his target for one round on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +3 enchantment bonus to Blind his oppenent for one round on a successful hit. Holy 9 hells... A no save stun on every attack! Unless an enemy is immune to stunning, they'll be screwed. A sick ability available from just a 4 level dip. Eat your heart out, Blasphemy abuse! Adding deafness and blindness to the mix only makes it sicker. Force- At 6th level the ~ may forgo +2 enchantment bonus in order to treat damage done by his weapon as force damage. At least you said "damage done by his weapon" this time, instead of just "damage you do." Shunt- At 10 level the ~ may forgo +3 enchantment bonus to push his target back 5 feet on a successful hit. The ~ may forgo +6 to push his target back 10 feet and +9 to push his target back 15 feet. Situationally very powerful because it doesn't allow a save. Arc- At 12th level the ~ may forgo +4 enchantment bonus to have his attack affect an additional opponent within 15 feet. Roll separately for each target. So this DOUBLES your attacks (as long as there's more than one target). Which are stunning everyone with no save. Speed- At 16th level the ~ may forgo +5 enchantment bonus to make an extra attack with his weapon using his highest base attack bonus. In what circumstances? On a full attack? Whenever he feels like it? If it's a non-action, as implied... Master Battle Magus- At 18th level the cost to add an effect to an attack reduces by +1 enchantment bonus, to a minimum of +1 enchantment bonus per added effect. Meh. ___ The rules are poorly written (I'm sure half the abilities don't work as written the way you actually intended), and clearly abusable (Stun with no save on every attack!). And there's no such thing as "Chaotic, Lawful, Holy, and Unholy" energy, nor is there such a thing as an "enchantment" bonus. And you didn't establish any new rule. Doesn't allow for much versatility in build, either... (only area of customization will be feats not given by the class itself) :thumbsdow At least you can say this is only a "first draft." It needs a lot of work to... not be completely awful. Forget balance (*cough* stun on every attack with no save*). At this point the writeup's not even presentable, since your rules don't *work* and the rules aren't presented concisely. This isn't usable.
Piropoint 06-22-07, 11:05 PM	Critisism is good. You are correct in saying that saves should be allowed for Flash and Shunt. I will think about how do do that. You're right about the enhancement bonus. I was baseing this off of how i remembered the Arcane archer, but i guess i remembered wrong. Is there a problem with haveing all the damage be of a particular energy type?(alighnemt problem aside) Should the forgoing add +1d6 damage for that energy type instead?. Arc should probably cost more to use. (+5 maybe) Speed should say when useing a full attack. I wouldent even call this a first draft. I would call it more of pre-first-draft. I like getting imput from people as I make a class, rather then make a full class just to relize that it's full of holes. Custimization will probaly include a fighting stlye feat progression like the ranger or monk. and then it will be just as "custimizable" as those to classes. I consider chooseing the energy types you have accsess to, as a way of customizing although its not as versitle as favored enemy. Thanks for your reply. I will Edit the original post latter.
OneWinged4ngel 06-22-07, 11:23 PM	Is there a problem with haveing all the damage be of a particular energy type?(alighnemt problem aside) "I take off a +1 from my weapon, and my spell from my Wizard multiclassing changes energy types." I'm assuming that's NOT what you intended. But that's what you wrote. It affects all damage you deal ever... not just your weapons.
Tallow 06-22-07, 11:26 PM	Ok... does Mage Grip give the equivalent of an enhancement bonus for getting through DR? (this only would be important in v3.0. In v3.5 magic is the way to get through DR #/magic, and you need the other various energies or material types to get through DR, whether you have a magic item or not.) Or does Mage Grip give an actual enhancement bonus (+ to hit and + to damage?) this would make him a +30/+25/+20/+15 to hit, and if I'm using a Longsword, 1d8+10 damage. This class assumes at least a +2 strength bonus, and at least a weapon focus feat. So now you are looking at +33/+28/+23/+18 with 1d8+12 damage. Way too much. Even magic weapons don't actually give you a +10 to hit. Anything above a +5 can be used for market value special magical abilities only. My suggestion to balance this, would be at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, & 20th, he gets the equivalent of a +1 enhancement bonus added to a particular bonded weapon. So at first level his special abilities would look like this, Mage Grip +1 & Bonded Weapon. If he is without his bonded weapon, he doesn't get his abilities. At 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, & 19th he gets Improved Mage Grip +1. This bonus only allows him to apply the other special abilities like Stun, Patchwork, Speed, etc. Anything affecting someone upon a successful hit should require a saving throw, not be an automatic success. This is probably the most broken thing about this class. With his gross to hit numbers, I only need to remove 1 or 2 from my enhancement bonus, and after the first round, my opponent will never move again until he falls to the ground dead (unless he's undead, plant, a construct, or otherwise immune to stunning attacks.) The saving throw should be typical of D&D v3.5 game mechanics and be 10+Stat bonus+spell level. Now since this guy doesn't have a spell level, you need to come up with some sort of a number that makes sense. You also need to determine what stat this guy uses to power his abilities. I'd suggest Charisma, since that is the typical ability used for those who channel inner strength into physical ability (sorcerers, warlocks, bards, etc.) So 10+Cha bonus+enhancement bonus given up to apply ability should be a fairly fair and balanced save, commensurate with precedent set amongst other classes and prestige classes. (e.g. for someone with a 15 Cha, your save DC for Stun would be 13.) An ability granted at some level 10+ might be interesting to allow the class to subtract further enhancement bonuses to add to this saving throw DC. I believe that you need to write patchwork better. You basically, if I'm not mistaken, treat your weapon as though its dealing that type of damage. This would basically allow you to get through DR, do lethal damage to those who can Regenerate, do double damage to those susceptible to a particular type of damage, etc. The alignment damage types are not really energy damage. I know what you meant, but when writing up a class, you really should pay attention to the semantics of game mechanics. It will become highly important later on as you start to apply prestige class requirements, prereqs for feats, how you might get through DR, etc. Shunt should basically allow them to make a free bull rush attempt without having to charge or move 10 feet. This would require the contested roll. Arc is way too powerful. It should be, after a full attack (not after every attack), they may make one additional melee attack against an opponent they can reach at his highest base attack bonus. Yes, this is basically a rewrite of Speed. Unless you want to keep this idea and do away with Speed. If that's the case, then this should be similar to Cleave, but that you can attack one additional foe that you threaten after a successful attack on your original target. You can do this once in a round. Perhaps add Improved Arc at 18th level that allows you to do this for each attack in a round. Master Battle Magus is too powerful anyways. See arc above for a rewrite on Speed or Arc. In this slot, rather than Speed or Arc, you should grant Mage Grip Focus special ability. It allows the Battle Magus to reduce his Mage Grip enhancement bonus up to add to the saving throw DC or bull rush contested roll. Now on to your Save progressions. Why do you have good progressions for Reflex AND Will. The way this class is built, it actually makes sense to have a good progression in Fortitude and bad in both Reflex and Will. That would fit in line with a Fighter, which this class most resembles. Because of his inner strength in granting his bonded weapon enhancement bonuses and other abilities, you might want to go with a Good Fortitude and Will, and a bad Reflex. But there is absolutely nothing in this class that would indicate that a good Reflex save progression fits the class in any way, shape or form. Andy
Tiarn 06-22-07, 11:40 PM	I have no disagreement with what's been said so far. (And please add the HD, skills, etc. We can't judge at all if this is balanced until we can take into account everything.) Also, how does this "forgo" thing work? Do I choose at the beginning of the day what enhancement I'm forgoing and what special abilities I have? Or can I alter it with every hit? What sort of action is it to change? If it doesn't take at least some time it becomes incredibly powerful simply because you can pick and choose which powers are situationally useful. "He's standing next to a cliff? I think this time I'll use the 'stun' and 'knock him back 5ft' attack, then even with his wings he'll fall."
Tallow 06-22-07, 11:47 PM	I have no disagreement with what's been said so far. (And please add the HD, skills, etc. We can't judge at all if this is balanced until we can take into account everything.) Also, how does this "forgo" thing work? Do I choose at the beginning of the day what enhancement I'm forgoing and what special abilities I have? Or can I alter it with every hit? What sort of action is it to change? If it doesn't take at least some time it becomes incredibly powerful simply because you can pick and choose which powers are situationally useful. "He's standing next to a cliff? I think this time I'll use the 'stun' and 'knock him back 5ft' attack, then even with his wings he'll fall." Yeah, I missed that misbalance there. I'd suggest that it work like Power attack. Its a free action, and you choose at the beginning of the round. It then lasts as chosen until your next turn.
Piropoint 06-23-07, 12:02 AM	This is the kind of responce I was looking for. Thank you. I want the mage grip ability to work as the arcane archer's ability. so yes, it should be enhancment. I will certainly allow saveing throws for Shunt and Flash. Shunt was inspired by the following power found on the DnD website: Psychokinetic Blast Psychokinetic (Con) Level: Psion 3 / Psychic Warrior 3 Display: Au, Vi Manifestation Time: 1 action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: Ray Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 You project a psychokinetic blast at a target, which manifests as a red ray of energy (or any color you choose). On a successful ranged touch attack, the target is dealt 5d6 points of damage. The driving force of the blast pushes a subject of one size category larger than your or smaller back 5 feet if the subject fails a Strength check (DC 20). If a wall or other solid object prevents the target from being pushed back, the subject instead slams into the object and takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. Now I see that this power uses an opposed strength check, just like you said the ability should. This class started as a "ranged weapons only class", (with the ability to increase range, and a splash ability that wouldent work well without range) which is why i had reflex higher than fortitude. I forgot to change it. I will. Could I keep the +1-+10 enhancment bonus if I shifted to a medium BAB? I'd suggest that it work like Power attack. Its a free action, and you choose at the beginning of the round. It then lasts as chosen until your next turn. This is what I had in mind. I will edit the original post latter.
Tallow 06-23-07, 12:12 AM	This is the kind of responce I was looking for. Thank you. No problem, I like looking at an interesting idea and helping out with it. I want the mage grip ability to work as the arcane archer's ability. so yes, it should be enhancment. ok, that's what I thought, but one of the responses confused me. I will certainly allow saveing throws for Shunt and Flash. Good, you should really look at my suggestion for how to do the saving throw. If you want something that is more simple, I'd suggest 10+Cha bonus+1/2 class level. This class started as a "ranged weapons only class", (with the ability to increase range, and a splash ability that wouldent work well without range) which is why i had reflex higher than fortitude. I forgot to change it. I will. Ah ok, I thought it looked misplaced there. Could I keep the +1-+10 enhancment bonus if I shifted to a medium BAB? I wouldn't. Basically a +5 gives this guy a huge bonus. He doesn't have to carry a magic weapon, ever. So he saves a ton of cash. The Improved Mage Grip I suggested gives him an extra +1 to +5 that he can apply to the specials like Flash, Shunt, Arc, etc. without making his to hits gross. Actually, I'd suggest making the change to a Cleric BAB progression AND my suggested change to Mage Grip.
Piropoint 06-23-07, 08:15 AM	I wouldn't. Basically a +5 gives this guy a huge bonus. He doesn't have to carry a magic weapon, ever. So he saves a ton of cash. The Improved Mage Grip I suggested gives him an extra +1 to +5 that he can apply to the specials like Flash, Shunt, Arc, etc. without making his to hits gross. Actually, I'd suggest making the change to a Cleric BAB progression AND my suggested change to Mage Grip. I think I will move to 1-5 enhancement over 20 levels, and come up with a 1-5 point buy system for added effects. I think however, i would still like this to be a fighting class first and fore-most. For now the Current BAB will stay. At what level is it appropriate to begin adding energy damage to weapons? One of the advantages of my original system, was that by the time you got your first patchwork energy type, you already had a point to spend, even if your weapon didn't have a +1 enhancment anymore.
Tallow 06-23-07, 11:33 AM	I think I will move to 1-5 enhancement over 20 levels, and come up with a 1-5 point buy system for added effects. I think however, i would still like this to be a fighting class first and fore-most. For now the Current BAB will stay. At what level is it appropriate to begin adding energy damage to weapons? One of the advantages of my original system, was that by the time you got your first patchwork energy type, you already had a point to spend, even if your weapon didn't have a +1 enhancment anymore. Don't "add" energy damage to your weapon. Just make the damage you do with your weapon a certain "type" of damage. In other words, you'd turn all damage you do with your weapon into fire, cold, electrical, acid, sound, lawful, chaotic, holy, or unholy damage. And you can still spend the Mage Grip bonuses on a round by round basis if you wanted to. But at higher levels, you can spend Improved Mage Grip bonuses ONLY for your extras and still have an enhancement bonus on the weapon. Consider this: Patchwork: At 2nd level, you can turn your bonded weapon damage into another type of damage (piercing, blunt, or slashing) at will, once a round. You can also turn your bonded weapon into an energy type (fire, cold, or electricity) by transfering your Mage Grip or Improved Mage Grip bonuses. You must transfer +1 of your enhancement bonus to turn the damage your bonded weapon does into a particular energy type of damage. (e.g. if your weapon is a longsword and you chose fire, it would do 1d8+Str Bonus+other bonuses fire damage on a successful hit.) At 8th level, you can now choose sonic or acid energy types. These two energy types require a transference of +2 enhancement bonus (I increased the cost of these two as game mechanics indicate that less monsters have resistance to or are immune to sonic or acid energy and they typically are worth a higher base market value when creating magic weapons.) You also may choose two energy types at this level by transfering the sum+1 of the two. (e.g. should you want to do both fire and sonic damage, your bonded long sword would do 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses fire damage and 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses sonic damage for a total transference of +4 enhancement bonus - [this works similarly to energy admixture].) At 14th level, you can how choose to turn your bonded weapon into lawful, chaotic, holy, or unholy damage. This requires a transference of +3 enhancement bonus, but if you attack a creature with an opposing alignment, you deal double damage. You also may choose three energy or alignment types at this level by transferring the sum of all three +1 for each extra over 1. (e.g. should you want to do bashing, fire, acid, and chaotic damage, your bonded longsword would do 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses bashing fire and 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses bashing acid and 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses bashing chaotic damage for a total transference of +8 enhancement bonus.) You may not use a type of damage that is against your alignment. Good characters may not use unholy damage, Lawful characters may not use chaotic damage, Evil characters may not use holy damage, and Chaotic characters may not use lawful damage. True neutral characters may use any type they wish. At 20th level, you gain Master Patchwork, you now only transfer +1 enhancement bonus no matter how many types of damage you choose to do up to three different types. You may add a fourth energy type for an additional transfer of +1 enhancement bonus. You also may change your weapon into a bane weapon for the transference of a +2 enhancement bonus. See the magical weapon bane ability in the DMG.
Piropoint 06-23-07, 12:58 PM	wow. that sounds pretty good. But why do you add +1d8 (for a long sword) for each energy you use? 1d8+Str Bonus+other bonuses fire damage This makes sence to me. This... should you want to do both fire and sonic damage, your bonded long sword would do 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses fire damage and 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses sonic damage and this... At 20th level, you gain Master Patchwork, you now only transfer +1 enhancement bonus no matter how many types of damage you choose to do up to three different types. You may add a fourth energy type for an additional transfer of +1 enhancement bonus. So... fire + sonic + unholy costs only +1 transferance? Fire + sonic + unholy + cold costs +2 transferance?
Tallow 06-23-07, 02:25 PM	That's the way Energy Admixture metamagic feat works. I believe it is worth a +3 spell level? If you cast fireball with Energy Admixture, you can make it a Fireball worth say 10d6 + an Acidball worth 10d6, for a total of 20d6 damage. If you think this is too much (I don't) then just say that the longsword does 1/2 damage fire and 1/2 acid or whatever. I don't like doing both types of damage without quantifying the actual amount of each type because of resistances. In other words, you should NOT be able to do 1d8+10 fire/acid damage where the damage done is both types equally. Its a game mechanic semantic. If anyone disagrees with me here, feel free to say why. So, up to 20th level, here's how the transference cost works. Fire, Cold, OR Electricity (FCE) = +1 Acid or Sonic (AS) = +2 Lawful, Chaotic, Holy, OR Unholy (LCHU) = +3 FCE + FCE = +3 FCE + AS = +4 AS + AS = +5 FCE + LCHU = +5 AS + LCHU = +6 FCE + FCE + FCE = +5 FCE + FCE + AS = +6 FCE + AS + AS = +7 FCE + FCE + LCHU = +7 FCE + AS + LCHU = +8 FCE + LCHU + LCHU = +9 AS + AS + AS = +8 AS + AS + LCHU = +9 AS + LCHU + LCHU = +10 LCHU + LCHU + LCHU = impossible at this level At 20th level Subtract 1 from all triple combos, so: FCE + FCE + FCE = +4 FCE + FCE + AS = +5 FCE + AS + AS = +6 FCE + FCE + LCHU = +6 FCE + AS + LCHU = +7 FCE + LCHU + LCHU = +8 AS + AS + AS = +7 AS + AS + LCHU = +8 AS + LCHU + LCHU = +9 LCHU + LCHU + LCHU = +10 And then you could do quadruple combos by adding the enhancment bonus transference cost for the 4th damage type AND another +1. So FCE + AS + LCHU + LCHU = impossible to do at this level (+1 for FCE, +2 for AS, +3 for both LCHU + 2 for multiple damage types = +11) FCE + FCE + AS + LCHU = +10 or FCE + FCE + FCE + AS = +7 ------ Here are a couple more notes... 1) You should indicate that a magical weapon enhancement bonus does not stack with this enhancement bonus. I know this should be able to be inferred based on the stacking rules, but it never hurts to be redundant. 2) Criticals should only multiply the base weapon damage. (e.g. a FCE + FCE + AS + LCHU longsword crit damage would look like this, 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses piercing damage + 1d8+STR bonus+other bonuses FCE damage + 1d8+STR Bonus+other bonuses FCE damage + 1d8+STR Bonus+other bonuses AS damage + 1d8+STR Bonus+other bonuses LCHU damage.) Alternately rather than requiring the extra crit damage to equal the type of weapon (slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing) damage, you choose the lowest cost damage type (in this case one of your two FCE damage types) to multiply. 3) I wanted to clarify the changing of weapon type damage at 2nd level. It costs nothing to change your weapon from piercing, slashing or bludgeoning to any of piercing, slashing or bludgeoning. Its a swift action to do so. It lasts till your next turn. It does not add to the damage type enhancement bonus transference cost, even if it is one of 2, 3, or 4 types of damage changes. It does not add an extra dice of damage. It merely changes the type of damage your bonded weapon does. At 6th level, it would make sense that you could add a weapon damage type for a +1 enhancement bonus transferal cost. So in other words, at 6th level, you could swing your longsword for 1d8+STR Bonus+other bonuses Piercing + 1d8+Str Bonus+other bonuses Slashing. So a combo of B+P+FCE+LCHU at 20th level, would equal +6 enhancement bonus transferal cost (+2 for 4 damage types, +1 for FCE, and +3 for LCHU). The only thing to keep in mind here, is that no matter what type of damage your weapon does, it should still retain the weapon type of damage. So you would do slashing fire damage with a longsword with FCE modification.
Piropoint 06-24-07, 01:18 PM	this is getting very complex very fast. Mage Grip can be used for: +0 for slahing, peircing, or bludgening +1 for fire, cold, or electricity +2 for sonic or acid +3 for holy, unholy, lawful, chaotic That sounds very straight forward. I think the extra cost to combine them makes things to complex however. (making master patchwork insanely complicated) What if combing them was level dependent? 1-4 = +1 total 5-8= +2 total 9-12= +3 total 13-16= +4 total 17-20= +5 total There would be no "extra" cost. At 6th level you can have an electric+cold weapon, or a sonic weapon. at 11th level you can have an acid+fire weapon. at 15th level you can have a sonic+acid weapon or a fire+electric+sonic weapon. In this system you can't use the alighnmnet untill 9th level, but if you want to do that you can't have other types. However at 16th level you can have an unholy + fire weapon. At level 18 you can have a holy+sonic weapon or a chaotic + fire + cold weapon. does this seem fair? PS-To make things really simple, the Mage Grip bonus and the Max Combo bonus are already the same values at each level!!!! 1st = +1 5th= +2 9th= +3 13th= +4 17th= +5
Tallow 06-24-07, 01:30 PM	That definitely cleans up alot of the garbage math and complications of playing a high level battle magus. I like it. It keeps it balanced, but cleans it up. I was just trying to come up with a system that didn't allow someone to gain essentially 4x damage until very high level. Using my suggestion and your cleaner eye, I think you are coming up with a nice class. Andy
Piropoint 06-24-07, 03:53 PM	cool. Now for a system to get the other bonuses. Force Flash (Stun, Deafen, Blind) Shunt Speed These are versitile and potent abilities. How about allowing each a number of times per day equal to Cha modifier? That way you don't have to worry about another point pool. Now a high Cha modifier is imporatnt for high DC saveing throws and # of times per day each ability is used. Also, if i go with bonded weapons, the max number of those should be based on Cha. (like the gun mage) Also possible feat ideas: Improved Mage Grip- Increase Mage Grip bonus by +1, patchwork limit also increases by +1. Master Battle Magus- You may now use your "add on" abilities a number of times per day equal to Cha modifier +1. Armored Magus- Non-magicle Armor you wear gains an enhancment bonus equal to your mage grip bonus. Shielded Magus- Non-magicle Shields you weild gain an enhancment bonus equal to your mage grip bonus.
Tallow 06-24-07, 09:14 PM	That seems to be viable. Not too powerful, and gives them some options up to 4 or 5 times a day at higher levels. I'd say no on Improved Mage Grip, as that would give a +6 enhancement bonus. I like the armor and shield ideas though. Andy
Piropoint 06-26-07, 09:12 PM	Ok...Heres how the first set of abilities turned out. Do they function the way i intend them to? Mage Grip- At first level, every non-magical weapon (including bonded weapons) wielded by the Battle Magus becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, a Battle Magus need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. A weapon losses this bonus if it is no longer wielded by the Battle Magus. Bonded Weapon: A Battle Magus is capable of bonding with a weapon that he is proficient with. Doing so takes a full day and uses up alchemical materials costing 100 gp. A Bonded Weapon gains certain characteristics based on the level of the Battle Magus. The bonded weapon becomes an extension of the Battle Magus, and while many Battle Magus carry a second, third or even fourth weapon, not all of them can bond to multiple weapons. A Battle Magus can only bond to a number of Weapons equal to his Charisma ability modifier. Patchwork- Beginning at 2nd level, on your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to substitute the type of damage dealt by your bonded weapon (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) with another. For example, you may treat damage dealt by a longword as slashing rather than piercing. Furthermore, the Battle Magus may transfer any Mage Grip enhancement bonus they have into potent magic. On your action, before making attack rolls, you may choose to transfer +1 of your mage grip enhancement bonus in order to treat damage done by your bonded weapon as cold, fire, or electric energy type damage in addition to its normal (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) type. At 5th level, you can now choose sonic or acid energy types. These two energy types require transferring +2 of your mage grip enhancement bonus. At 9th level, you can now choose to turn your bonded weapon into lawful, chaotic, holy, or unholy damage. This requires a transference of +3 enhancement bonus, but if you attack a creature with an opposing alignment, you deal double damage. You may not use a type of damage that is against your alignment. Good characters may not use unholy damage, Lawful characters may not use chaotic damage, Evil characters may not use holy damage, and Chaotic characters may not use lawful damage. True neutral characters may use any type they wish. The Battle Magus may use any of these patchworks in conjunction as long as they have enough mage grip enhancement bonus to transfer. Force- At 6th level, on your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to have your bonded weapon deal it’s damage for that round as though it were force damage. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier and cannot be used in conjunction with the patchwork ability. Flash- At 10th level, by making a full attack with your bonded weapon, you may choose to have your target deafened in addition to taking damage from the attack. The DC for saving against flash is equal to 10+Cha bonus+Mage Grip Bonus and is made after each successful hit. After the attack is complete, the target becomes deafened for a number of rounds equal to the number of saves they failed. At 12th level the target may instead be blinded one round for each failed save. At 16th level the target may instead be stunned one round for each failed save. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier and may be used in conjunction with the patchwork ability.
Tallow 06-27-07, 01:01 AM	I like it, much much cleaner. Andy
Piropoint 06-27-07, 12:36 PM	I went ahead and put the class up for PEACH on another thread if you want to take a look. I'l add the fluff, if it gets good responce.