Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AZNsupermarket 09-25-06, 08:50 PM	Battle Monk http://www.magyar.film.hu/kepek/upload/2006-01/DY03%20Iron%20Monkey.jpg My take at a more melee oriented Monk. Its flavor is based on popular culture's version of a monk (Movies like Iron Monkey or other films in the Wuxia genre). Mechanically, it's based off of Monk and Battle Dancer. This is my first time making a class, so wish me luck. Flavor Text: A Battle Monk is variant monk who puts more emphasis on physical prowess than spiritual development. Becoming a Battle Monk requires a lot of time spent training on a strict regiment of traditional training exercises. Battle Monks usually don’t worship a god, but an ideal. When a Battle Monk monastery does worship any particular god, they often worship a martially oriented god with the war domain. While many Battle Monk monasteries do not worship any particular god, individual Battle Monks exist in almost every monastery that contains regular Monks. These individuals simply focus more on martial prowess than their regular Monks counter-parts do. Crunch: This class works as a regular Monk with the following changes: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/BattleMonkversion2.jpg Class Skills The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Class Skills Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Masterwork Body: As a Battle Monk trains, he forces his body to become a deadly weapon. A 3rd-level Battle Monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a masterwork weapon for all purposes. It can be enhanced magically just like a masterwork weapon. A Battle Monk with the Masterwork Body ability cannot benefit from amulets of mighty fists because they enhance their body more directly through magical enhancements and not through amulets. Masterwork Body does not negate Vow of Poverty, but a permanent magical enhancement on the body would negate Vow of Poverty. Slow Fall: A Battle Monk’s Slow Fall works as that of a normal Monk, except a Battle Monk does not to be within arm’s reach of a wall for his Slow Fall ability to work. Aerial Acrobatics: A 5th-level Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks. A Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in jump receives a +10 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Perfect Balance: In order to get an advantage in combat, a Battle Monk learns the art of climbing up any wall at a fast speeds. A 7th-level Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in balance can walk up walls as though he was under the effect of spider climb for a number of consecutive rounds equal to one-quarter his Battle Monk level. Although activating and dismissing perfect balance is a free action, to activate perfect balance, a Battle Monk must be on stable, firm surface, which he could ordinarily stand on. Alternately, a Battle Monk with improved perfect balance can choose to activate perfect balance while standing on the surface of a body of water. If a Battle Monk ends on a location where he can not stand on or can not hang on to, he will fall. Improved Aerial Acrobatics: A Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks that most people could never dream of doing. A 10th-level Battle Monk with 10 or more ranks in jump receives a +20 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Improved Perfect Balance: A Battle Monk moves with such speed and precision that he can walk across water. A 12th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in balance can cross the surface of a liquid, such as water or magma, without taking damage or sinking below the surface. If he ends his movement on such a liquid, he takes damage and sinks as normal. The Battle Monk must begin his movement on a stable, firm surface. improved perfect balance does not last as long as perfect balance because the ability to walk on water is harder to maintain the ability to walk on walls. Tiger Strike: A 15th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 20 Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge. Common Battle Monk Multi/Prestige-classes: Note: A Battle Monk who multi/prestige-classes can no longer take levels in Battle Monk. There are ways around this, usually by taking levels in special monk prestige classes, taking levels in other classes before becoming a Battle Monk, or taking special feats or abilities. Drunken Master (Complete Warrior): Many Battle Monks find that the Drunken Master’s fighting style works well with what they have already learned as Battle Monks. The Drunken Master’s ability to not be forced to move in a straight line while charging, via their Stagger ability, works well with the Battle Monk’s ability to get more attacks during a charge, via their Tiger Strike ability. Paladin/Sacred Fist (Complete Divine): Many Battle Monks crave for a more spiritual side that they miss out on as a more martially oriented Monk. By taking the feats Ascetic Knight (Complete Adventurer) and Serenity (Dragon Compendium), a Battle Monk can become very effective as a Battle Monk/Paladin mix. By taking levels of Sacred Fist (Complete Divine) the Battle Monk/Paladin finds a perfect union of his two talents. Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionic Handbook): Many Battle Monks find that by awakening dormant psionic powers, they can become even more powerful in combat. With psionic powers to buff them, Battle Monks who become Fists of Zuoken can wreak havoc in a battle. If there is any ability that you feel needs to be changed, please tell me. Thanks!
frasmage 09-25-06, 09:09 PM	looks decent to me, though skilled monk seems more fitting, his abilities are more about do amazing feats of balance and pushing yourself, but it has little to do with combat BTW, why are all the names hyperlinked? did you rip the chart off the SRD or something and modify it? At least remove the hyperlinks (blue) next time
AZNsupermarket 09-25-06, 09:16 PM	BTW, why are all the names hyperlinked? did you rip the chart off the SRD or something and modify it? Yes, I did At least remove the hyperlinks (blue) next time I left the hyperlinks so I could quickly spot which special abilities were mine and which were created by wotc. I'll remove them, when I make any more changes to the class. EDIT: got rid of the hyperlinks
frasmage 09-25-06, 09:20 PM	as this is obviously nothing more than a variant, would you mind putting at the end of each ability what it replaces (maybe just in brackets), it makes it easier to judge balance via whats lost vs. whats gained ... i am feeling too lazy to check the srd myself tonight ;)
AZNsupermarket 09-25-06, 09:29 PM	his abilities are more about do amazing feats of balance and pushing yourself, but it has little to do with combat Reminder to self: fix flavor text EDIT: I fixed flavor text as this is obviously nothing more than a variant, would you mind putting at the end of each ability what it replaces (maybe just in brackets), it makes it easier to judge balance via whats lost vs. whats gained ... i am feeling too lazy to check the srd myself tonight ;) I really can't. I basically took away all the bits that seemed too mystical and placed abilities that fit the idea of a martial monk or reminded me of Iron Monkey or Shaolin Soccer - No ability specifically replaces another.
club2bash 09-25-06, 11:14 PM	To help you balance it a bit, Perfect balance is a bit much, maybe they can run up walls but must end their movement on a horizontal surface or fall.
AZNsupermarket 09-25-06, 11:25 PM	To help you balance it a bit, Perfect balance is a bit much, maybe they can run up walls but must end their movement on a horizontal surface or fall. Then the monk wouldn't be able to jump up, stick to the ceiling, and hide in the shadows. How would it be overpowered to have perpetual spider climb? I feel that this is mostly balance because most of his abilities could be easily superseaded by the ability to fly.
frasmage 09-26-06, 07:13 AM	I agree, it makes more sense thematically if they work like the ninja ability. If they do not end their movement on a horizontal surface (look monks have a high enough speed to reach that anyways)
AZNsupermarket 09-26-06, 11:49 AM	I agree, it makes more sense thematically if they work like the ninja ability. If they do not end their movement on a horizontal surface (look monks have a high enough speed to reach that anyways) When I get home, I think that I will make both their wall-climbing ability weak when they start off and get better at high levels.
club2bash 09-26-06, 07:13 PM	Yes, the whole ninjas climbing walls thing is cool, but ninjas used hooks they attached to theyr hands to climb walls. However, The court notices that you took away quavering palm ability, so I'll let it slide:D .
AZNsupermarket 09-27-06, 04:53 PM	Update: I made a few minor clarifications and changed Perfect Balance ability. Perfect Balance: In order to get an advantage in combat, a Battle Monk learns the art of climbing up any wall at a fast speeds. A 7th-level Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in balance can walk up walls as though he was under the effect of spider climb for a number of consecutive rounds equal to one-quarter his Battle Monk level. Although activating and dismissing perfect balance is a free action, to activate perfect balance, a Battle Monk must be on stable, firm surface, which he could ordinarily stand on. Alternately, a Battle Monk with improved perfect balance can choose to activate perfect balance while standing on the surface of a body of water. If a Battle Monk ends on a location where he can not stand on or can not hang on to, he will fall.
SheerAscended 09-27-06, 05:06 PM	nice class nice picture
frasmage 09-27-06, 05:16 PM	nice class nice picture It would be more impressive if it was something drawn rather than a pic from a movie
AZNsupermarket 09-27-06, 05:40 PM	nice class nice picture Thanks, I found that Iron Monkey really epitomizes what I was going for with small bits of other Wuxia films. I spent some time looking for a nice size/good quality photo that really captured the essence of the class. I'm happy that you appreciate it. It would be more impressive if it was something drawn rather than a pic from a movie That would be impressive, but I did spend a lot of time looking for a good picture for this class, and if there was anything better out there, I couldn't find it.
AZNsupermarket 09-27-06, 06:48 PM	Update: Added a Section on flavor and multi/prestiege classing.
AZNsupermarket 09-30-06, 09:12 PM	:bump: I'm playtesting it for the first time in two days. Any more imput would be appreciated. :monk:
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 09:18 PM	I don't have the BoED, but you should look at the Vow of Poverty in it for comparison. I prefer yours, since I believe that the VoP is very role-playing intensive, but that might be a good tool to determine balance (depending on how balanced you think VoP is).
AZNsupermarket 09-30-06, 10:01 PM	I don't have the BoED, but you should look at the Vow of Poverty in it for comparison. I prefer yours, since I believe that the VoP is very role-playing intensive, but that might be a good tool to determine balance (depending on how balanced you think VoP is). I'm sorry, I'm having problem understanding your logic. What do you want me to compare? VoP Battle Monk to Battle Monk w/o VoP? VoP Monk to Battle Monk w/o VoP? VoP Monk to VoP Battle Monk? Monk w/o VoP to VoP Battle Monk?
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 10:04 PM	VoP monk to Battle Monk w/o VoP. I'm pretty sure that the VoP monk gets a full BAB but cannot hold any items. I think he also gets better unarmed damage.
Sapp 09-30-06, 10:19 PM	In terms of fluff, it doesn't make sense that they'd keep a couple of the in-class skills monks have. I think these skills don't belong in the in-class skills anymore: Diplomacy -- Fight. Not talk. Perform -- Wu Da. Not Wu Shu. To a lesser extent, this might not be as necessary: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion) -- Muay Thai. Not Tai Chi. I think your class is strong enough that these minor tweaks wouldn't hurt it.
Sapp 09-30-06, 10:33 PM	VoP monk to Battle Monk w/o VoP. I'm pretty sure that the VoP monk gets a full BAB but cannot hold any items. I think he also gets better unarmed damage. You are confusing us. The Vow of Poverty is a feat. The Battle Monk is a class. You don't compare feats to classes. The VoP is almost nothing as you describe it. A VoP monk's BAB is the same as a normal monk's. A VoP monk can hold items. He just can't benefit from anything valuable. He can carry unconscious allies wearing expensive items, for example. A VoP monk's unarmed damage does not change. It's a feat, it bestows benefits to classes. It isn't tailored to a specific class. It doesn't directly affect any class. Any synergy this feat may have with a class is indirect. This lack of understanding of the Vow of Poverty is probably why so many people overestimate the VoP Monk, and think the two terms always come in a pair. We need to learn the new paradigm, "VoP Druid".
AZNsupermarket 09-30-06, 10:47 PM	In terms of fluff, it doesn't make sense that they'd keep a couple of the in-class skills monks have. I think these skills don't belong in the in-class skills anymore: Diplomacy -- Fight. Not talk. Perform -- Wu Da. Not Wu Shu. To a lesser extent, this might not be as necessary: Knowledge (Arcana, Religion) -- Muay Thai. Not Tai Chi. I think your class is strong enough that these minor tweaks wouldn't hurt it. I agree with you on Diplomacy, Perform, and Knowledge (Arcana). Knowledge (Religion), I will let slide because many War Monk Monasteries devoutly worship a god.
AZNsupermarket 09-30-06, 11:11 PM	Added Survival and Sleight of Hand to skills Survival - Part of their Battle Monk training is surviving in the harshess conditions in order to test their ability to endure Sleight of Hands - Part of their Battle Monk training is sleight of hand because using your dexterity to be able to grab a powerful item from an opponent without them noticing could be a major advantage for a battle in a fight. EDIT: added Perfom (Weapon Drill) - the one perform check they would makes sense having
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 11:40 PM	You are confusing us. The Vow of Poverty is a feat. The Battle Monk is a class. You don't compare feats to classes. The VoP is almost nothing as you describe it. A VoP monk's BAB is the same as a normal monk's. A VoP monk can hold items. He just can't benefit from anything valuable. He can carry unconscious allies wearing expensive items, for example. A VoP monk's unarmed damage does not change. It's a feat, it bestows benefits to classes. It isn't tailored to a specific class. It doesn't directly affect any class. Any synergy this feat may have with a class is indirect. This lack of understanding of the Vow of Poverty is probably why so many people overestimate the VoP Monk, and think the two terms always come in a pair. We need to learn the new paradigm, "VoP Druid". Then why the hell does the VoP monk in my group have a full BAB and increased unarmed damage? I'm gonna have to have a talk with him:fight!: . Anyway, I apologize for the uselessness of my input.
AZNsupermarket 09-30-06, 11:45 PM	Then why the hell does the VoP monk in my group have a full BAB and increased unarmed damage? I'm gonna have to have a talk with him:fight!: . Anyway, I apologize for the uselessness of my input. :heehee It's no problem because that last post made me laugh :rofl:
Sapp 09-30-06, 11:58 PM	Then why the hell does the VoP monk in my group have a full BAB and increased unarmed damage? I'm gonna have to have a talk with him:fight!: . Anyway, I apologize for the uselessness of my input. His base unarmed damage might not have increased. Vow of Poverty grants an enhancement bonus to both attack and damage every few levels (+1 at 4th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 14th, +4 at 17th, and +5 at 20th). It also grants bonus attributes. It also grants a few other abilities. But if you really mean that his base unarmed damage increased... then that is wrong. His BAB should not be full either. It's a strong feat for low magic campaigns, but otherwise, it's rather mediocre. Ironically, despite being from the BoED, it's a very "selfish" feat, in my opinion.
AZNsupermarket 10-05-06, 03:59 PM	I need opinions: would it be overpowered to raise skill points to +6 per level? Resoning: 1) They lose out on int badly because of MAD 2) They are more or less forced to put ranks in certain skills to make Prerequisites for some special abilities
Sapp 10-05-06, 05:24 PM	It wouldn't be overpowered, but it would be unnecessary, in my opinion. Normal monks only get 4 + Int per level, and they suffer from just as much MAD. The prerequisites don't seem too high, and you really only need to take care of Balance, Tumble, and Jump. A human monk could definitely handle them. Others wouldn't have too hard of a time either. Perhaps that's just me, because I do try to give my monks at least 12 Intelligence, because skillpoints can't be retroactively added, unlike HP.
AZNsupermarket 10-05-06, 06:08 PM	It wouldn't be overpowered, but it would be unnecessary, in my opinion. Normal monks only get 4 + Int per level, and they suffer from just as much MAD. Normal monks are a little bit underpowered IMHO, that is why I made this class The prerequisites don't seem too high, and you really only need to take care of Balance, Tumble, and Jump. A human monk could definitely handle them. Others wouldn't have too hard of a time either. Perhaps that's just me, because I do try to give my monks at least 12 Intelligence, because skillpoints can't be retroactively added, unlike HP. My friend who is playtesting it noticed that he was considerably low on skill points and didn't have enough to max both spot/listen and hide/move silently like he would have liked for reconnaissance, even as a human with a 12 in int. BTW we house ruled retroactive skillpoints only when ability score increases at a level divisible by four or when gained through a permenent inherent bonus to int (as found in tomes).
Sapp 10-05-06, 06:17 PM	I suppose if maxing multiple ranks is your goal then your skill points per level would seem low. Rarely does a class max multiple ranks besides wizards and rogues. But I agree that the monk is underpowered... well, not really underpowered so much as lacking focus. So you go right ahead and do what you want. I never did think it would be 'overpowered' to give the Battle Monk 6 + Int skills per level. I just thought it was unnecessary. It didn't matter to me as much, but if it does to you, more power to you. That is a good houserule, by the way. I will ask about that for my own group.
Marcotic 10-13-06, 05:37 PM	dude, this guy is just too powerful compared to the monk for me, I mean, sure he should be able to beat the monk in a fight, but more skills per level? I think you have a good idea going on though and with a few tweaks to make him more combat focused and less skillful I would defenitly add him to any champain (unarmed fighters are the shiznat after all)
AZNsupermarket 11-26-06, 11:20 PM	dude, this guy is just too powerful compared to the monk for me, I mean, sure he should be able to beat the monk in a fight, but more skills per level? I think you have a good idea going on though and with a few tweaks to make him more combat focused and less skillful I would defenitly add him to any champain (unarmed fighters are the shiznat after all) How did I miss this post for over a month? - need to check my old threads more often I'm okay with this class being clearly more powerful than a monk because a monk is substantially weaker than most classes. I also basically force the monk to put ranks in certain skills, thus taking away from their scouting capabilities (hide, move silently, spot, and listen). I see this class more akin to a ranger: scouting and skirmishing.
boozerker 11-27-06, 08:57 PM	Perfect Balance -- I'd allow them to safely end movement only in areas where the ceiling meets the wall, or there's at least one 1-inch pocket or extrusion on the wall, or if the wall's climb DC is 20 or less (ninja type equipment for wall-crawling gives this max DC a boost equal to its climb bonus. For example, +10 climbing hooks lets you safely end movement on a wall climb of DC 30 or less). BAB -- The monk's original BAB is fine. Compare to a fighter, who gets only four attacks at 20th level compared to a monk's five attacks (with flurry of blows) at same level. Only the first attack by the fighter is better than a monk's; the second is equal and the rest are worse. If anything, give your monk an ability to drop the last two attacks (of flurry of blows) in order to give the first attack a +5 bonus (or burn a move action to get the +5 bonus). Damage Reduction -- Doesn't fit, and steps on Barbarian's territory. However, you could make a similar ability that returns a certain amount of lost hit points at the end of any turn in which you've taken at least that much damage. Create an ability called Rebound, for example -- Rebound 1 returns 1 hit point at 8th level, Rebound 2 returns 2 hitpoints at 11th level, and so on until Rebound 5 returns 5 hit points at 20th level. The difference is the monk has a slightly higher chance of dropping or being killed from an attack than with damage reduction. Skills -- Keep skill progression as original. If worried about your monk's scouting, just give them a +5 bonus to each relevant skill. Improved Aerial Acrobatics -- give it a +15 bonus to jump. :tiphat:
AZNsupermarket 11-28-06, 05:07 PM	Perfect Balance -- I'd allow them to safely end movement only in areas where the ceiling meets the wall, or there's at least one 1-inch pocket or extrusion on the wall, or if the wall's climb DC is 20 or less (ninja type equipment for wall-crawling gives this max DC a boost equal to its climb bonus. For example, +10 climbing hooks lets you safely end movement on a wall climb of DC 30 or less). I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but I'm liking the idea of setting up climb DC that would allow the monk to stick to an the area where the wall meets the ceiling or a small crack in the wall. BAB -- The monk's original BAB is fine. Compare to a fighter, who gets only four attacks at 20th level compared to a monk's five attacks (with flurry of blows) at same level. Only the first attack by the fighter is better than a monk's; the second is equal and the rest are worse. If anything, give your monk an ability to drop the last two attacks (of flurry of blows) in order to give the first attack a +5 bonus (or burn a move action to get the +5 bonus). I'm sorry, but one of the orignial reasons I created this monk was to give him full BaB. Without it a fighter can out-grapple and out-trip most monks. Why would a monk have the same BaB as a Bard? It just doesn't make sense to me. Your way, while it may be balanced, seems too complicated for my group. Damage Reduction -- Doesn't fit, and steps on Barbarian's territory. However, you could make a similar ability that returns a certain amount of lost hit points at the end of any turn in which you've taken at least that much damage. Create an ability called Rebound, for example -- Rebound 1 returns 1 hit point at 8th level, Rebound 2 returns 2 hitpoints at 11th level, and so on until Rebound 5 returns 5 hit points at 20th level. The difference is the monk has a slightly higher chance of dropping or being killed from an attack than with damage reduction. I'm not a fan of teaching my group new mechanics. I gave the battle monk damage reduction as a way to spread a little bit of the perfect self abilities over a few levels. Skills -- Keep skill progression as original. If worried about your monk's scouting, just give them a +5 bonus to each relevant skill. In playtesting, we found that the character was significantly low on skills, I gave him these extra ones and haven't run into any problems with them yet. Improved Aerial Acrobatics -- give it a +15 bonus to jump. Jump is a level one spell, perhaps if I say that it these effects don't stack with jump, this will become a bit more balanced? :tiphat: :cool: Thanks for the help!
theotherdraxen 11-28-06, 05:19 PM	If I'm correct, this monk is meant to simulate a lot of the stuff done in Kung Fu movies. They're always doing extraordinary leaps, but also falling slowly. It would be nice to see slow fall work even if you didn't need a wall. In the movies, don't they leap huge distances, and land lightly on the ground, often silently?
Crashy75 11-28-06, 05:42 PM	I've only scanned it (no time) but looks interesting. I didn't see anything to help the monk at range though. Could have missed it though.
theotherdraxen 11-28-06, 06:04 PM	I've only scanned it (no time) but looks interesting. I didn't see anything to help the monk at range though. Could have missed it though. That's what I like about uber-leaping monks! They are the missile!
AZNsupermarket 11-30-06, 05:07 PM	If I'm correct, this monk is meant to simulate a lot of the stuff done in Kung Fu movies. They're always doing extraordinary leaps, but also falling slowly. It would be nice to see slow fall work even if you didn't need a wall. In the movies, don't they leap huge distances, and land lightly on the ground, often silently? I never even noticed that they have to be near a wall to slow fall, I always just ignored that part of the rules I guess:)
AZNsupermarket 11-30-06, 05:08 PM	I've only scanned it (no time) but looks interesting. I didn't see anything to help the monk at range though. Could have missed it though. Since they can walk into areas that most could not (walls and water) an elven monk, who specializes in the longbow can be a deadly combination.
Krusk 12-12-06, 10:17 PM	Maybe you should consider adding the ability to not have their max jump height restricted by their height. Otherwise even gaining a +20 jump check that halfling is only going to be able to jump 4 feet up. The ability is detailed in the ninja class, but i dont own that book, so i dont know exactly how they word it.
Marcotic 12-14-06, 02:26 AM	now this IS a replacement to the monk right? in which case, a little over powered, but workable, the only thing i would be worried about is if you also had the monk around, in which case, well, there worthless in such a champain. In fact, unless you do somthing about the other mundane warriors, there all decimated.
KurenaiYami 12-14-06, 02:32 AM	Maybe you should consider adding the ability to not have their max jump height restricted by their height. Otherwise even gaining a +20 jump check that halfling is only going to be able to jump 4 feet up. The ability is detailed in the ninja class, but i dont own that book, so i dont know exactly how they word it. If you play 3.0. That restriction is now gone.
Krusk 12-14-06, 02:52 AM	You mean in 3.5 that restriction does not exist? Then why do ninjas gain the ability?
KurenaiYami 12-14-06, 02:59 AM	You mean in 3.5 that restriction does not exist? Then why do ninjas gain the ability? Only 3.5 Ninja I know of is from Complete Adventurer, and they don't get that ability. What'chu talkin' 'bout, Krusk?
Krusk 12-14-06, 03:07 AM	Maybe im just insane, now im gonna have to go look........ ANd your right im totally incorrect. I have no idea what i was thinking then, because i played second edition for like a month befor 3rd came out. And even then i hadnt bought my own books or anything yet. So its not like i was thinking of an old rule. In that case very cool class.
maxxrox 12-14-06, 05:01 AM	This monk should definitely get Slow Fall, and it should be specified that while sticking to a wall or corner, you can't do anything with your hands or legs. Otherwise, I love it! I'm going to use it in my Avatar CS (see siggy).
Iarmeister 12-14-06, 10:17 AM	You mean in 3.5 that restriction does not exist? Then why do ninjas gain the ability? Because in 3.5 you still need at least 20 feet of movement prior to your jump lest your DC is doubled. The ninja's Great Run ability says that he is always considered to have moved the prerequisite 20 feet, even if they didn't move at all. Thus, their DC is never doubled for jump checks.
Repeekluos 12-14-06, 10:21 AM	Two words. MASTERWORK BODY!!!! :rofl: :monk: :rofl: I freaking love it!
theotherdraxen 12-14-06, 03:39 PM	Since they can walk into areas that most could not (walls and water) an elven monk, who specializes in the longbow can be a deadly combination. Any thoughts on the whole "I am the projectile" concept? It's how I would play a battlemonk, but I don't know if that matches your image. This monk should definitely get Slow Fall, and it should be specified that while sticking to a wall or corner, you can't do anything with your hands or legs. But in a lot of Kung-Fu movies, the monks often leap huge distances and land on bamboo stalks. There has got to be some kind of slow fall aspect going on, but there's no wall nearby. Edit: would it really be unbalancing to give them slowfall with no wall?
Repeekluos 12-14-06, 05:17 PM	Edit: would it really be unbalancing to give them slowfall with no wall? Unbalancing? Not really, but it wouldn't make any sense.
Krusk 12-14-06, 06:28 PM	I think it would make sense if he is going for a class based off asian fantasy martial arts stuff. Did you see crouching tiger? thats basically what that movie was.
theotherdraxen 12-14-06, 10:02 PM	I think it would make sense if he is going for a class based off asian fantasy martial arts stuff. Did you see crouching tiger? thats basically what that movie was. Exactly.
AZNsupermarket 12-14-06, 10:26 PM	now this IS a replacement to the monk right? More or less. If a person really wanted to play a regular monk (for whatever reason), I would have no problem letting them. This monk should definitely get Slow Fall, and it should be specified that while sticking to a wall or corner, you can't do anything with your hands or legs. Hmm... maybe I would require at least one hand on the wall for sticking to a corner to work, but they can walk up walls (a la kung-fu movies) without use of their hands. BTW this monk does get slow fall (not sure why you thought he didn't) Otherwise, I love it! I'm going to use it in my Avatar CS (see siggy). Sounds cool, but the link doesn't seem to be working right now.
AZNsupermarket 12-14-06, 10:37 PM	Two words. MASTERWORK BODY!!!! :rofl: :monk: :rofl: I freaking love it! Inspired by a player, who after seeing the episode of futurama in which Fry gets the Robot Devil's hands, demanded that I give his monk masterwork hands as well. I think it would make sense if he is going for a class based off asian fantasy martial arts stuff. Did you see crouching tiger? thats basically what that movie was. QFT
AZNsupermarket 12-14-06, 10:46 PM	I want your opinions on the following ideas: 1) Saying flat out that the battle monk's slow fall works when not next to a wall. 2) Creating a table to show what kind of climb check would be need for a battle monk to stick to corner after climbing up a wall and deactivating perfect balance. I would adjust the climb check according to the amount of limbs that can be used to support the monk and the surface the climb check took place on. 3) I'm Highly debating whether I should get rid of 6+int skill points per level and replace it 4+int skill points, but at the same time get rid of the ranks needed in certain skills to get certain abilities. The problem with this is that the monk would still need many skill such as climb in order to stick to walls and tumble in order to improve their skirmishing abilities, but it's just not as clearly spelled out as before, which would hurt the players.
theotherdraxen 12-14-06, 11:34 PM	1. I like it, of course. 2. Sounds a little complex. Why not just assign a flat DC? If extra arms made climbing easier, then that would have already been taken into account for in the climb skill. 3. Lesee, they need: Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble. The extra 2 skills aren't necessary, unless the Monk decides to dump Int, which isn't likely. With elite array, I see things going like this: Str 13 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8 Er, wait. Do they have any reason to up wisdom besides will saves? Any more unarmored AC bonus?
AZNsupermarket 12-16-06, 03:09 PM	Er, wait. Do they have any reason to up wisdom besides will saves? Any more unarmored AC bonus? I edited the chart from the srd. It's not really my fault that it's confusing. The column of the chart that shows the AC bonus means that the Battle Monk gets the same AC bonus (including wis to AC) that the regular monk would get.
theotherdraxen 12-16-06, 07:19 PM	Okay, so is this array about how you would like your average Battle Monk stats to go? Str 13 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
AZNsupermarket 12-16-06, 08:25 PM	Okay, so is this array about how you would like your average Battle Monk stats to go? Str 13 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8 Hmm... using an elite array... Str 15 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Then again, it's all a matter of taste, and it really hard to be a MAD class with an elite array. The problem is that with 4 skill points per level, there is no room left for spot and listen or hide and move silently. I always thought of this as a scout/skirmisher archetype class and the extra skills seem kind of necessary.
theotherdraxen 12-16-06, 08:30 PM	Well, it certainly won't overpower the class or the game, and they come off about as skilled as a ranger, which makes sense. I'd say keep it 6+int. Interesting...the Battle Monk pursues physical prowess over mental enlightment. I like it.
obsidianrose 12-16-06, 09:10 PM	That's what I like about uber-leaping monks! They are the missile! Get fists enhanced with throwing? It never specifies you have to let go of it for the throwing property to work.
theotherdraxen 12-16-06, 09:11 PM	Get fists enhanced with throwing? It never specifies you have to let go of it for the throwing property to work. You can do the Superman stance while flying, too! Edit: I think the definition of throwing involves letting go. :(
Krusk 12-16-06, 10:00 PM	Edit: I think the definition of throwing involves letting go. :( but you could get away with it until wizards defined throwing for us. You could easily argue that you are throwing your arm, and your body just happens to travel with it. and back...?
obsidianrose 12-16-06, 10:04 PM	Doesn't this allow the possibility of shoot arrow, snatch arrows on the arrow, and fly with the arrow to the target?
AZNsupermarket 12-17-06, 01:50 PM	Update: Updated the slow fall ability works when not next to a wall, and noted that the bonuses from Aerial Acrobatics/Improved Aerial Acrobatics do not stack with the Jump spell.
theotherdraxen 12-17-06, 07:40 PM	Update: Updated the slow fall ability works when not next to a wall, and noted that the bonuses from Aerial Acrobatics/Improved Aerial Acrobatics do not stack with the Jump spell. Why shouldn't they stack? If you need someone to jump, the Monk is who the party is going to ask for help. And if you need someone to jump really high, they'll ask the wizard and the monk.
AZNsupermarket 12-17-06, 10:49 PM	Why shouldn't they stack? If you need someone to jump, the Monk is who the party is going to ask for help. And if you need someone to jump really high, they'll ask the wizard and the monk. The Jump spell gives ridiculously large bonuses to jump (+10, +20, or +30 depending on the level). The Battle Monk gets ridiculous bonuses to jump (+10 or +20 depending on the level). I really don't feel right having a monk with no ranks in jump or items to up starting at +50 modifier. Assuming a monk decided to make str his dump stat and made it an 8 (don't ask me why) and he put the minumum 10 ranks in Jump to gain the Improved Acrobatics Ability. He also gets a +8 because by 10th level you have a +20 to your base land speed (this bonus goes up to a +12 at level 16, but I going for the bare minimum to get Improved Aerial Acrobatics). He then tries a long jump with a jump spell and a 20 ft running start, rolls a natural 1, he will still automatically jump 68 ft! That's too much for me. If you put more ranks in jump and up the monk's strength score to a reasonable level, his jumps would be astronomical. In my head, Aerial Acrobatics/Improved Aerial Acrobatics was always meant to mimic the Jump spell, not stack with it.
theotherdraxen 12-17-06, 10:53 PM	Then you'd best define that bonus as an enhancement bonus: items offer similar ridiculous bonuses and are not linked to the spell.
AZNsupermarket 12-17-06, 11:04 PM	Then you'd best define that bonus as an enhancement bonus: items offer similar ridiculous bonuses and are not linked to the spell. You're a clever man. EDIT: Updated
theotherdraxen 12-17-06, 11:53 PM	You're a clever man. Thanks! I'm going to see if I can work this class into my campaign. My players are a distance away from lands with Battlemonks, but I might just sick one on them just to see how powerful this class is.
AZNsupermarket 12-18-06, 02:08 PM	Thanks! I'm going to see if I can work this class into my campaign. My players are a distance away from lands with Battlemonks, but I might just sick one on them just to see how powerful this class is. as of right now, my biggest fear is that DR might be stepping too much on the barbarian's toes. Also what level will this Battle Monk be? It's balance may very level by level.
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 02:37 PM	as of right now, my biggest fear is that DR might be stepping too much on the barbarian's toes. I wouldn't worry about it: you really aren't stepping on the Barbarian's toes until you give this monk Rage. Also what level will this Battle Monk be? It's balance may very level by level. Well, the key to quick-testing balance is checking at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. I figure I can just acid test first level with this guy (since my group is 5th) and then make him into a running antagonist that shows up every so often. The only problem is my number of house-rules, which may screw with what's balanced and what isn't. BTW: being a warrior-type, you could give this guy two good saves. Probably won't overpower him, and it will retain the "mage-killer" aspect of a monk. I'd almost suggest allowing him to 'pick' which save he wanted to be good, so that a wizard still has to play a nasty guessing game with them.
Elemental_Master 12-18-06, 04:01 PM	How is walking on water not mystical? You might wanna try hide in plain sight if your going for the ninja edge.
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 04:02 PM	Okay, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to fill out the class table a little more. I'm just adding description for the crunch, so people can fully assess what this class has. Keep your old, or use this one if you like. If you do use this, don't worry about quoting it: just copy and paste it directly. If you don't want to use it, I won't be crushed. Enjoy! Battle Monk http://www.magyar.film.hu/kepek/upload/2006-01/DY03%20Iron%20Monkey.jpg My take at a more melee oriented Monk. Its flavor is based on popular culture's version of a monk (Movies like Iron Monkey or other films in the Wuxia genre). Mechanically, it's based off of Monk and Battle Dancer. This is my first time making a class, so wish me luck. Flavor Text: A Battle Monk is variant monk who puts more emphasis on physical prowess than spiritual development. Becoming a Battle Monk requires a lot of time spent training on a strict regiment of traditional training exercises. Battle Monks usually don’t worship a god, but an ideal. When a Battle Monk monastery does worship any particular god, they often worship a martially oriented god with the war domain. While many Battle Monk monasteries do not worship any particular god, individual Battle Monks exist in almost every monastery that contains regular Monks. These individuals simply focus more on martial prowess than their regular Monks counter-parts do. Crunch: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/BattleMonkversion2.jpg Alignment Any Lawful. Hit Die d8. Class Skills The Battle Monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the battle monk. Weapon and Armor Proficiency Battle monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. Battle monks are not proficient with any armor or shields When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a battle monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the battle monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Flurry of Blows (Ex) When unarmored, a battle monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so. Greater Flurry When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus. Unarmed Strike At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage. Bonus Feat At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. Evasion (Ex) At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion. Fast Movement (Ex) At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed. Masterwork Body (Ex) As a Battle Monk trains, he forces his body to become a deadly weapon. A 3rd-level Battle Monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a masterwork weapon for all purposes. It can be enhanced magically just like a masterwork weapon. A Battle Monk with the Masterwork Body ability cannot benefit from amulets of mighty fists because they enhance their body more directly through magical enhancements and not through amulets. Masterwork Body does not negate Vow of Poverty, but a permanent magical enhancement on the body would negate Vow of Poverty. Slow Fall (Ex) At 4th level or higher, a monk can slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can slow her descent and fall any distance without harm. Note: unlike a normal monk, this ability does not require a wall. Aerial Acrobatics (Ex) A 5th-level Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks. A Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in jump receives a +10 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Perfect Balance (Ex) In order to get an advantage in combat, a Battle Monk learns the art of climbing up any wall at a fast speeds. A 7th-level Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in balance can walk up walls as though he was under the effect of spider climb for a number of consecutive rounds equal to one-quarter his Battle Monk level. Although activating and dismissing perfect balance is a free action, to activate perfect balance, a Battle Monk must be on stable, firm surface, which he could ordinarily stand on. Alternately, a Battle Monk with improved perfect balance can choose to activate perfect balance while standing on the surface of a body of water. If a Battle Monk ends on a location where he can not stand on or can not hang on to, he will fall. Damage Reduction (Ex) At 8th level, a monk gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the monk takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 11th level, and every three monk levels thereafter (14th, 17th, and 20th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. Improved Evasion (Ex) At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Improved Aerial Acrobatics (Ex) A Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks that most people could never dream of doing. A 10th-level Battle Monk with 10 or more ranks in jump receives a +20 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Improved Perfect Balance (Ex) A Battle Monk moves with such speed and precision that he can walk across water. A 12th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in balance can cross the surface of a liquid, such as water or magma, without taking damage or sinking below the surface. If he ends his movement on such a liquid, he takes damage and sinks as normal. The Battle Monk must begin his movement on a stable, firm surface. improved perfect balance does not last as long as perfect balance because the ability to walk on water is harder to maintain the ability to walk on walls. Tiger Strike (Ex) A 15th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 20 Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge. Ex-Monks A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities. Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 04:04 PM	How is walking on water not mystical? You might wanna try hide in plain sight if your going for the ninja edge. It's not mystical in the same sense that running at super-human speeds isn't. Just 'cause Jesus did it doesn't mean it's has to be supernatural;). I thought it was kind of iconic of all the guys from Kung Fu movies. Remember Hero? They practially jumped off of the water!
AZNsupermarket 12-18-06, 06:52 PM	I wouldn't worry about it: you really aren't stepping on the Barbarian's toes until you give this monk Rage. A barbarian really has two defining abilities: Rage and Damage Reduction. How's this for an idea: reducing the battle monk's damage reduction by 1? The damage reduction would not come in till 11th level and the BM's DR will always be at least 1 less than the Barb's. Well, the key to quick-testing balance is checking at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. I figure I can just acid test first level with this guy (since my group is 5th) and then make him into a running antagonist that shows up every so often. The only problem is my number of house-rules, which may screw with what's balanced and what isn't. Out of curiousity what house rules did you impliment? BTW: being a warrior-type, you could give this guy two good saves. Probably won't overpower him, and it will retain the "mage-killer" aspect of a monk. I'd almost suggest allowing him to 'pick' which save he wanted to be good, so that a wizard still has to play a nasty guessing game with them. I don't feel comfortable giving the battle monk two good saves or letting the monk pick his best save. I know you could really make a case for it flavor-wise, but this class is kinda on the high-powered end balance-wise, and this seems to be pushing it. If the mage killer aspect is what you are going for, keep in mind that he can out grapple anybody, so I wouldn't worry about the whole monk vs mage aspect too much. One of the reasons I stayed away from the mage-killer aspect was that my group rarely faces NPC mages (take to long to stat up). I guess this was a good thing in the long run because it allowed me to focus in on the BM's reconnaissance/skirmishing abilities. Remember Hero? They practially jumped off of the water! I love that movie. In fact, it's one of my favorites of all time. Okay, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to fill out the class table a little more. I'm just adding description for the crunch, so people can fully assess what this class has. Keep your old, or use this one if you like. If you do use this, don't worry about quoting it: just copy and paste it directly. If you don't want to use it, I won't be crushed. Enjoy! Wow! Thanks a lot! I will definately use this. All I have to do is fix a few minor typos and make the parts that differ from a normal monk stick out (font color red), and I should be good to post this. I will post this new complete version tomorow or tonight (if I have time). BTW typos you missed: Flurry of Blows (Ex) When unarmored, a battle monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 7th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 13th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. Greater Flurry When a monk reaches 19th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus. Fast Movement (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 07:18 PM	A barbarian really has two defining abilities: Rage and Damage Reduction. How's this for an idea: reducing the battle monk's damage reduction by 1? The damage reduction would not come in till 11th level and the BM's DR will always be at least 1 less than the Barb's. I dunno...in an optimized game, DR less than 20 isn't all that useful. I have a poorly optimized charger (he's trying to cover 3-4 roles since he's a fifth wheel), and he's yoinking 6 points of damage out of every increase in BAB he gets (in addition to hitting reliably). DR 5/- isn't too hard to overcome at the high levels he gets it. Out of curiousity what house rules did you impliment? Quite a few, actually (more than is advised, but they don't interact much). As far as combat is concerned, I have: 1. Player's roll all the dice: won't affect this, since all probability is still the same, just players roll defense instead of badguys rolling to hit. 2. Armor as DR (1/2 armor bonus rounded up, 1/2 armor bonus converted to DR/-, rounded down) 3. Base Defense Bonus (equal to 1/2 BAB). 4. It's you not your gear (more feats and ability boost, no ability enhancing items). The main things that worry me is Armor as DR and the Base Defense Bonus, since this makes the numbers add up differently. Your battle monk is going to have an insane touch-attack compared to a normal game, but he'll be pitted against mostly melee guys (OWA's paladins). Might just have to insert him into a more normal game if I can, or just acid test him by myself. I don't feel comfortable giving the battle monk two good saves or letting the monk pick his best save. I know you could really make a case for it flavor-wise, but this class is kinda on the high-powered end balance-wise, and this seems to be pushing it. If the mage killer aspect is what you are going for, keep in mind that he can out grapple anybody, so I wouldn't worry about the whole monk vs mage aspect too much. One of the reasons I stayed away from the mage-killer aspect was that my group rarely faces NPC mages (take to long to stat up). I guess this was a good thing in the long run because it allowed me to focus in on the BM's reconnaissance/skirmishing abilities. Well, you'll need a way to get around Freedom of Movement, but I see the Battle-Monk is more of a front-line guy instead of a mage-killer (leave that to the old monk). Just make sure he's on par with TOB classes and the like. I love that movie. In fact, it's one of my favorites of all time. Agreed. While I don't like depressing endings, that was one awesome movie. Still trying to see if there's a 'medical precision' feat somewhere that lets you fake a death, but I digress... Wow! Thanks a lot! I will definately use this. All I have to do is fix a few minor typos and make the parts that differ from a normal monk stick out (font color red), and I should be good to post this. I will post this new complete version tomorow or tonight (if I have time). :w00t: I've gone from useless posts to useful! BTW typos you missed: Erk, now I'm back. Oh well, easy come, easy go.
AZNsupermarket 12-18-06, 07:40 PM	I dunno...in an optimized game, DR less than 20 isn't all that useful. I have a poorly optimized charger (he's trying to cover 3-4 roles since he's a fifth wheel), and he's yoinking 6 points of damage out of every increase in BAB he gets (in addition to hitting reliably). DR 5/- isn't too hard to overcome at the high levels he gets it. Yea, but in a game where one of the players is playing BM and the other a Barb, it's way too easy to get the feeling that the BM can do everything the Barb can do, but better (Minus the Rage). Quite a few, actually (more than is advised, but they don't interact much). As far as combat is concerned, I have: 1. Player's roll all the dice: won't affect this, since all probability is still the same, just players roll defense instead of badguys rolling to hit. 2. Armor as DR (1/2 armor bonus rounded up, 1/2 armor bonus converted to DR/-, rounded down) 3. Base Defense Bonus (equal to 1/2 BAB). 4. It's you not your gear (more feats and ability boost, no ability enhancing items). The main things that worry me is Armor as DR and the Base Defense Bonus, since this makes the numbers add up differently. Your battle monk is going to have an insane touch-attack compared to a normal game, but he'll be pitted against mostly melee guys (OWA's paladins). Might just have to insert him into a more normal game if I can, or just acid test him by myself. You're right, these houserules may through off the balance a bit. Out of curiosity, how do you feel these house rules have added to your gaming experience? Well, you'll need a way to get around Freedom of Movement, but I see the Battle-Monk is more of a front-line guy instead of a mage-killer (leave that to the old monk). Just make sure he's on par with TOB classes and the like. Just got TOB a couple days ago and I have been itching to run this fight. Agreed. While I don't like depressing endings, that was one awesome movie. Still trying to see if there's a 'medical precision' feat somewhere that lets you fake a death, but I digress... While I don't like unnecessarily depressing endings either, you have to admit that the death at the end is probably one of the coolest ways to die. :w00t: I've gone from useless posts to useful! Erk, now I'm back. Oh well, easy come, easy go. 4 typos do not make your post useless. Thanks again! :cool:
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 08:47 PM	Yea, but in a game where one of the players is playing BM and the other a Barb, it's way too easy to get the feeling that the BM can do everything the Barb can do, but better (Minus the Rage). Ah, I see. Well, you could give the BM back some of those Fists of X, so they can fight creatures with DR a little better. You're right, these houserules may through off the balance a bit. Out of curiosity, how do you feel these house rules have added to your gaming experience? Not sure what you mean here. Just got TOB a couple days ago and I have been itching to run this fight. I hope you mean alongside others. D&D is a cooperative game, and isn't built for arena battles. Having a BM fight alongside a Swordsage and see who tends to steal the show in which battle is probably the best way to test him. While I don't like unnecessarily depressing endings either, you have to admit that the death at the end is probably one of the coolest ways to die. Ooh, mixed up the deaths. Yeah, the main character's death was so honorable that I wouldn't have had it any other way. I'm a bit of an honor-hound, so that was cool. 4 typos do not make your post useless. Thanks again! :cool: No problem.
maxxrox 01-04-07, 12:39 PM	So is this class finished? I'd like to playtest it.
ben2099 01-04-07, 01:26 PM	I like the way you are going with this class as it has some really neat potential to create a front line monk, however there is a couple things that really need to be changed. The biggest one, and the one I think people are not commenting about, is: Tiger Strike (Ex) A 15th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 20Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge. By doing this, you are giving a monk the pounce special ability for free. A 15 th level monk can make that DC without breaking a sweat. Even on a low roll, the DC is attainable. With 15th level monks I have made in the past, I have had anywhere from a +16 to a +20 tumble check. I do this because I don't want to provoke attacks of opportunity when going through reach or threatened squares. In order to make this ability seem fair (ie. A DM ever letting you use this ability) I would change it to: "Tiger Strike (Ex) A 15th-level Battle Monk with 18 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 35Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge." These changes make it so that there is a cost to using the ability. With 18 ranks, you can have anywhere from a +21 to +24 to your tumble, giving you a 50/50 shot to actually make the check, instead of an automatic success. Also, a melee fighting monk would have tumble as one of there most important skills anyway. The other thing I don't think fits as much is DR. Monks are more about trying to avoid damage than being able to soak it up. I say instead of giving DR, either increase the Dodge Bonus to AC by 1, or maybe try working something into this Masterwork Body idea. What I thought was this: My Body is My Shield (Ex) At 8th level, a Battle monk, through his training, has learned to deflect certain blows through sharpened senses and exceptional timing. When in melee combat, the Battle Monk gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC. This ability increases to +2 at 14th level, and +3 at 20th level Overall, seems like a neat class, may need some clarification how to enchant a body part, and if so, would you have to enchant each body part seperately. Hope this helps, Ben2099
theotherdraxen 01-04-07, 04:32 PM	I like the way you are going with this class as it has some really neat potential to create a front line monk, however there is a couple things that really need to be changed. The biggest one, and the one I think people are not commenting about, is: Tiger Strike (Ex) A 15th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 20Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge. By doing this, you are giving a monk the pounce special ability for free. A 15 th level monk can make that DC without breaking a sweat. Even on a low roll, the DC is attainable. With 15th level monks I have made in the past, I have had anywhere from a +16 to a +20 tumble check. I do this because I don't want to provoke attacks of opportunity when going through reach or threatened squares. In order to make this ability seem fair (ie. A DM ever letting you use this ability) I would change it to: "Tiger Strike (Ex) A 15th-level Battle Monk with 18 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 35Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge." These changes make it so that there is a cost to using the ability. With 18 ranks, you can have anywhere from a +21 to +24 to your tumble, giving you a 50/50 shot to actually make the check, instead of an automatic success. Also, a melee fighting monk would have tumble as one of there most important skills anyway. Um, psi-warriors can get pounce by 5th level IIRC. Granting it at 15th does not seem overpowering IMO.
ben2099 01-04-07, 05:01 PM	I have to disagree. There is no class that I know of in DnD 3.5 that can give you pounce as a class feature. Even if psionics does give you the power to pounce, it is still limited by how many power points you have how many times you can use it. Just imagine if you decided to use Tiger Strike as it is now with a scout skirmish ability? You could get an additional 1 to 3d6 extra damage with each hit. There is a reason pounce is given to animals and not to player characters (unless they play certain monsters with HUGE level adjustments).
theotherdraxen 01-04-07, 05:34 PM	I have to disagree. There is no class that I know of in DnD 3.5 that can give you pounce as a class feature. Even if psionics does give you the power to pounce, it is still limited by how many power points you have how many times you can use it. Just imagine if you decided to use Tiger Strike as it is now with a scout skirmish ability? You could get an additional 1 to 3d6 extra damage with each hit. There is a reason pounce is given to animals and not to player characters (unless they play certain monsters with HUGE level adjustments). Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146#post5305146)'s a complete list of ways to get pounce. Besides, Tiger Strike kicks in at 15th level. Even if you pump the rest of your levels into Scout, your skirmish would only rise up to 2d6 at 20th level. An extra average of 7 damage (max 12) per attack, for 21-28 precision based damage on a full attack (assuming that 3-4 of his flurryattacks hit) is good, but not game-breaking. He'll still be outdamaged by the spellcasters regularly.
Cricket_God 01-04-07, 06:13 PM	I think that in it's current state this class is bordering on overpowered not because any of it's abilities are overpowered but more because it has to many abilities. I would drop the DR. Your monk is going to be fairly durable even without it. I think one of the class features that needs the most work is your Masterwork Body feature. Something seems strange about a class that is based around personal development paying someone gold to add magic to their fists. Further more, once you get beyond the basic enhancement bonus your monk can start adding energy damage to his fists. I would alter this ability to something which progresses as the BM gains levels rather than something he pays for.
theotherdraxen 01-04-07, 07:35 PM	I think that in it's current state this class is bordering on overpowered not because any of it's abilities are overpowered but more because it has to many abilities. I would drop the DR. Your monk is going to be fairly durable even without it. That depends on what you call overpowered. In a high-powered game, a charger will murder this guy, DR or not. DR is great against a flurry of attacks (that's why I like it: it makes the BM durable against his own class, but AZN is probably going to change it), but high-powered damage, or energy damage, has this guy screwed. One of the best quotes I've heard here is: 'Dr 20/- at 20th level would be bloody useless!' (from the Rebalanced Paladin thread) I assure you, said DR isn't going to help this guy out much, especially at the levels he gains it. I think one of the class features that needs the most work is your Masterwork Body feature. Something seems strange about a class that is based around personal development paying someone gold to add magic to their fists. Further more, once you get beyond the basic enhancement bonus your monk can start adding energy damage to his fists. I would alter this ability to something which progresses as the BM gains levels rather than something he pays for. I agree here, though I would prefer to see some kind of wealth expense: perhaps a sacrifice to spirits, payment for training, or donations to remain in touch with your Monk lifestyle? Whatever the reason, a BM adding enhancement bonuses to his fists is going to serve him nicely. This would be a nice way to give the Monk back his fists of x ability without overpowering him (er, I think, anyway). If people are going to start playtesting this class, AZN, would you mind posting some stat blocks of how you envision this guy at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20? This way, we can draw clear comparisons of just how powerful he is.
theotherdraxen 01-04-07, 09:59 PM	I've put this in my sig as the Rebalanced Monk. Is this an appropriate title for it, AZN?
Tim4488 01-15-07, 04:51 PM	If you want a way for the monk to add an enhancement bonus without paying someone else, look at the OA Samurai's Daisho ability. Or the Kensai's signature weapon. Same thing, almost. Ditto on the thing about monks dodging attacks, not soaking them up. My suggestion would be to drop DR, put in some sort of dodge bonus to AC. It just makes more sense. IMHO.
AZNsupermarket 01-15-07, 05:46 PM	If you want a way for the monk to add an enhancement bonus without paying someone else, look at the OA Samurai's Daisho ability. Or the Kensai's signature weapon. Same thing, almost. Ditto on the thing about monks dodging attacks, not soaking them up. My suggestion would be to drop DR, put in some sort of dodge bonus to AC. It just makes more sense. IMHO. Not bad suggestions...
AZNsupermarket 01-15-07, 05:47 PM	Update: Expect some sort of large scale revamp of the Battle Monk class. I have been meaning to do this for ages, but there are still many mechanics of the class that I am not completely comfortable with.
theotherdraxen 01-15-07, 06:34 PM	Any chance we're going to get a preview? :bigeyes:
maxxrox 01-18-07, 05:35 PM	Please put the wall restriction for Slow Fall back in. It makes no sense otherwise. The image of monks jumping and landing on bamboo stalks is easily justified by good balance checks. There is no justification for a monk who doesn't use magic to get slow fall when not on a wall. The best that he could do is make the tumble or jump check to reduce the damage by 10 feet. When dropped from a high place, people don't float down like feathers without magic, no matter how skillful they are. If anything, the no-wall slow fall should be in addition to the with-wall one, but granted with less distance at a higher level, for example at 10th level, slow fall 30/10 (with wall/without wall).
theotherdraxen 01-18-07, 08:00 PM	Please put the wall restriction for Slow Fall back in. It makes no sense otherwise. The image of monks jumping and landing on bamboo stalks is easily justified by good balance checks. There is no justification for a monk who doesn't use magic to get slow fall when not on a wall. The best that he could do is make the tumble or jump check to reduce the damage by 10 feet. When dropped from a high place, people don't float down like feathers without magic, no matter how skillful they are. If anything, the no-wall slow fall should be in addition to the with-wall one, but granted with less distance at a higher level, for example at 10th level, slow fall 30/10 (with wall/without wall). Haven't you seen the mystic Kung-Fu movies? Slowfall is just a part of surviving massive jumps and the like. Besides, they have to wait until 20th level to get the effect of a ring of featherfall. Think about it: 2,200 GP for a Monks 20th level ability. IMO, it would be kind of sad to see it limited to just a wall.
AZNsupermarket 01-18-07, 08:42 PM	Please put the wall restriction for Slow Fall back in. It makes no sense otherwise. The image of monks jumping and landing on bamboo stalks is easily justified by good balance checks. There is no justification for a monk who doesn't use magic to get slow fall when not on a wall. The best that he could do is make the tumble or jump check to reduce the damage by 10 feet. When dropped from a high place, people don't float down like feathers without magic, no matter how skillful they are. If anything, the no-wall slow fall should be in addition to the with-wall one, but granted with less distance at a higher level, for example at 10th level, slow fall 30/10 (with wall/without wall). Someone doesn't watch kung-fu movies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AFoi9SE4wQ -I never really thought about making the no-wall slow fall work not as well as wall slow fall, but I have been thinking about making the no-wall version kick in at a higher level than the regular one. Any chance we're going to get a preview? :bigeyes: hmm... Ideas that I'm working with: Big change to the Damage Reduction. -Part of me wants to push back the damage reduction progression, but that would make it even less useful and cause me to have to reorganize a bunch of other abilities -Another part of me wants to replace with a different ability that isn't too complicated and I feel works flavor-wise I mentioned before that I was thinking about changing the the no-wall slow fall ability to be a special ability that the battle monk received a different level. I like the Masterwork Body, maybe something else that enhances unarmed strikes? maybe something that helps with DR? -lawful alignment? -mithril body? -adamantine body?
maxxrox 01-26-07, 10:47 AM	OMFG that looked totally cheezy. If that's really what you're aiming for, you're right on.
wonlee76 01-26-07, 02:51 PM	Class Skills The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Weapon Drill) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Class Skills Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier. So a monk with miore skill points and what appears to be a slightly better skill list than the regular monk. Masterwork Body: As a Battle Monk trains, he forces his body to become a deadly weapon. A 3rd-level Battle Monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a masterwork weapon for all purposes. It can be enhanced magically just like a masterwork weapon. A Battle Monk with the Masterwork Body ability cannot benefit from amulets of mighty fists because they enhance their body more directly through magical enhancements and not through amulets. Masterwork Body does not negate Vow of Poverty, but a permanent magical enhancement on the body would negate Vow of Poverty. Spiffy advantage opening up a world of possibilities for a monk and teir unarmed strikes. Slow Fall: A Battle Monk’s Slow Fall works as that of a normal Monk, except a Battle Monk does not to be within arm’s reach of a wall for his Slow Fall ability to work. Better than the regular monk's slow fall ability. Aerial Acrobatics: A 5th-level Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks. A Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in jump receives a +10 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Cute ability with some potential in there and fits the flavor of what you are trying to create. Perfect Balance: In order to get an advantage in combat, a Battle Monk learns the art of climbing up any wall at a fast speeds. A 7th-level Battle Monk with 5 or more ranks in balance can walk up walls as though he was under the effect of spider climb for a number of consecutive rounds equal to one-quarter his Battle Monk level. Although activating and dismissing perfect balance is a free action, to activate perfect balance, a Battle Monk must be on stable, firm surface, which he could ordinarily stand on. Alternately, a Battle Monk with improved perfect balance can choose to activate perfect balance while standing on the surface of a body of water. If a Battle Monk ends on a location where he can not stand on or can not hang on to, he will fall. This is an awesome ability in my opinion. I like the image of a monk walking on walls. Improved Aerial Acrobatics: A Battle Monk often pulls off impressive in aerial attacks that most people could never dream of doing. A 10th-level Battle Monk with 10 or more ranks in jump receives a +20 enhancement bonus to all Jump checks. Snazzy. Improved Perfect Balance: A Battle Monk moves with such speed and precision that he can walk across water. A 12th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in balance can cross the surface of a liquid, such as water or magma, without taking damage or sinking below the surface. If he ends his movement on such a liquid, he takes damage and sinks as normal. The Battle Monk must begin his movement on a stable, firm surface. improved perfect balance does not last as long as perfect balance because the ability to walk on water is harder to maintain the ability to walk on walls. Snazzier. Tiger Strike: A 15th-level Battle Monk with 10 ranks in Tumble can spring upon an opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, he can attempt a DC 20 Tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make a full attack rather than a standard attack as part of his charge. I don't know how to say this but this is a very very powerful ability for a nominal DC check. (18 Ranks + Dex by level 15 making this an auto success ability barring circumstance modifiers). Presuming the original monk is a balanced class (some pepole agree or disgagree with this assessment) this class seems overpowered compared to the standard monk in my opinion. Battle Monk loses: Immunity to Disease and Poison DR 10/Magic Tongues Spell Resistance Good Fort and Will Saves Limited Self Healing ability 1/day Dimension Door 1/week Death Touch type attack +2 to Saves against Enchantment Spells Ki Strike ability Battle Monk gains: Full BAB Enchantable unarmed strikes DR 1/- to DR 5/- (which is far superior to the Perfect Self ability my opinion) Improved Slow Fall Ability (doesn't need to be near a wall to slow down). Abilities related to Balance allowing essentially Spider Climb and Water Walk with some restrictions (but no limit on how many times a day it can be done). Ability to boost Jump checks (nominal benefit in my opinion). Battle Monk keeps: FLurry of Blows Progression Monk Unarmed Strike Progression Fast Movement progression AC bonuses. Evasion/Improved Evasion Bonus feats Looking at the total picture, this is a lot more powerful than a standard monk. What it loses are minor compared to what it gains. My suggestion is get rid of the full BAB or get rid of the masterwork body ability or get rid of flurry of blows. One or the other seems to be a decent substitute but keeping all of them makes this a monster of a class. Leaving all three in place is kind of obscene in my opinion. I would vote getting rid of the masterwork body and putting back Ki Strike. Also, I see no reason why this monk should have more skill points than a regular monk. Put it back to 4 skill points/level. Just because you gave it certain special abilities that are contingent on having a certain number of ranks in certain skills doesn't mean you should simply give more skill points to the monk so it can fulfill those requirements. I'd be tempted to give the battle monk 2 skill points a level. If the omre "mystical" self enlightened monk gets 4/level, why would one focused more on being a basher/beater get more than the mystical version. The other stuff that was lost and gained seems to be par for the course though I"m a bit concerned about a tiger's pounce ability with no weekly or daily restriction. That DC check is a joke. But losing immunity to poison and SR are pretty huge downgrades so it may be an okay exchange.
1CentSage 01-26-07, 05:23 PM	A few suggestions: Aerial Acrobatics: Add that the jumping distance is no longer limited by the monk's height. Otherwise all the boni to Jump will not help him that much. Skills: I would reduce the number of skillpoints to 4/lvl and compensate the monk by giving him a bonus equal to 1/2-1 (depending on you)times his class level to Balance and Tumble. Less flexibility, more focus on the flavor of the class. Masterwork Body: I see a few problems that might arise here. Two examples: One big advantage of this ability is that a monk with MB using two weapon fighting with his unarmed strike saves a lot of money because he does nothave to pay for the enchantment of his "off hand weapon". Another question is, if the monk is the target of a targeted dispel magic are his "weapons" treated as items for the purpose of this spell or not. So I would specify in a bit more detail what MB can do and what not. An interesting alternative would be to replace the ability by an ability that allows the monk (and only the monk) to enchant his unarmed strike himself by paying the appropriate amount of XP and gold needed but otherwise does not have to have any item creation feats or magic abilities. While this might at first seem to be another advantage and it does not solve the above mentioned problems in any way it is balancing because it forces the monk to invest quite a lot of XP (I did a martial artist class once that had a similar ability and members also could enchant their body with armor enhancements and it worked very well). However, a monk could always buy bracers of striking from Magic of Faerun... Tiger Claw: As has been said, the Tumble DC is too low to be relevant. I would suggest something like DC 20+2per 5ft. movement as part of the charge (more like 30+2/5ft if you implement the Tumble bonus suggested above ). This makes the use progressively more difficult the more the monk profits from it. Finally, as a melee class you might want to consider giving it a good Fort save , removing damage reduction and a bonus feat instead. Less flavor and flexibility, but all in all an improvement foe a melee combatant IMHO. All in all, a nice class.
maxxrox 01-27-07, 11:05 AM	Aerial Acrobatics: Add that the jumping distance is no longer limited by the monk's height. Otherwise all the boni to Jump will not help him that much. That's a 3.0 restriction. It no longer exists.
AZNsupermarket 01-27-07, 12:36 PM	I appreciate the responses and will keep it in mind, when the big update comes around. Battle Monk keeps: FLurry of Blows Progression Monk Unarmed Strike Progression Fast Movement progression AC bonuses. Evasion/Improved Evasion Bonus feats I just want to point out that the battle monk's progression of flurry of blows, unarmed strike, fast movement, and ac bonus are all much slower than that of a regular monk.
AZNsupermarket 01-27-07, 12:37 PM	Skills: I would reduce the number of skillpoints to 4/lvl and compensate the monk by giving him a bonus equal to 1/2-1 (depending on you)times his class level to Balance and Tumble. Less flexibility, more focus on the flavor of the class. I like this idea in particular and will work to adapt this.
tetebetson 03-29-07, 09:01 AM	you could of added some differant feats which ar more cotbative and suited to monk such as Superior unarmed strike ,Snap kick,(book of nine swords) Karmic strke .wepon focus,Pressure Pont Strike is also an option as a plausable bonus feat at 6th LV evan if you dont meet the pre reqs. also why leave out ki strike
enygmatic_me 03-29-07, 11:38 AM	The concerns I have with a build like this is the straight up ability to attack like they do with the damage they cause is better than pretty much any other martial class and definitely better than the core martial classes. +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 for 2D10 points of damage each? Toss on the TWF feat tree and you are looking at +18/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3 primary, +18/+13/+8 secondary attack for 2d10 points of damage. Toss on Improved Natural Attack once and all of a sudden the character is attacking 9 times around for 4d8 points of damage. Heck, you could probably bypass the TWF feats and just take Improved Natural Attack a bunch of times and deal up to 12d8 per attack eventually. Also, the Slow Fall should require the wall. Someone pointed out that it only duplicates the properties of a 2,200 GP magic item. It also does something else though. It frees up that magic item slot for something far better (ring of protection perhaps?) Tiger Strike needs to be made more difficult. At the level it is gained the ability to use it will be no problem for a halfway intelligently built character. Combine that with 9 attacks a TWF character could have (or some really beefed up damage through IUS) and you have a combat puree machine running around at 60' a round. DR is never useless, even a low one. DR 5/- means every physical attack against a character will have 5 points reduced from the damage dealt. If a this character was attacked 10 times that is like saying it had a bonus of 50 HP. That, with all of the ways this class has to boost it's AC, is a bit overkill in my opinion. I like the idea of the class, I just think it gains too much to be considered balanced.
PhantomOfTime 04-14-08, 12:20 AM	In regards to Tiger Strike, as a DM, I'd completely remove it. "Pounce" and anything mimicking its effect is something I've banned from my players and have repeatedly made them aware. If it's part of a progression of an already strong class, such as this one, I sometimes go as far as to allow a replacement feat (subject to approval), but generally, I'll just say "it doesn't exist" (ala Catfolk Pounce). This is something you should consider replacing. That aside, if you changed nothing else and returned to 3/4 base, you still have a more than decent fighting class. There are more than enough ways to improve your ability to hit, especially since you can even enhance your fists, so you shouldn't need to do this. As for skills, the original Monk was more a skirmisher than this one is. You don't need to have spot, listen, move silently, hide, etc maxed out with all characters. The one who needs to worry about [most of] those most is the Rogue, not the Monk. 4 + int was enough and remains so. Jump, Balance, Tumble, the rest are up to the player. A note regarding Slow Fall. As far as mechanics go, the Monk isn't just sliding along the wall...s/he's using it to slow their fall almost as one would climb it, which further explains the limitations put on it (after 10 ft, you've pushed yourself out of reach of the wall at low level, for example, and get better at slowing your falling speed while not pushing yourself from the wall at higher levels). I'd argue that you'd at least need to land near something you can break your fall near. Alternatively, you could also improve the benefit of falling damage reduction via Jump/Tumble for a higher DC (i.e. reduce the effect of the fall by more than just 10ft by equivalently multiplying the DC of the Jump/Tumble check, and potentially even giving bonuses against such checks). It's not as powerful, sure, but you're already taking a rather good ability and improving it a little far. Now that all that is said, I won't say that the Monk (original version) is a good melee combat class. It isn't. It, as far as I know, wasn't supposed to be. It was closer, if anything, to a mage-killer class. As such, bear in mind that you're taking it in a completely different direction from its original intent, and thus the original abilities are likely stronger in non-combat than in combat, for the most part. That said, I'm not saying, at all, that this is bad. On the contrary, it's well thought-out, with a little too much given to it. It explicably turns the Monk into a combat class. A few extra touches and it would probably be good to go.