Battle Sorc vs Sorc [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorc vs Sorc [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spyderfreek
10-12-06, 10:37 AM Why in so many of the GISH builds using sorc is it recommended to take battle sorc? Is wearing armor ffor the few levels you need to wear it that big of a deal that you would give up spells over the long run? Is this the only reason or am I missing something from the text?

I have suddenly become very indecisive about my next character, as my DM has big trouble dealing with an ok mage. I wanted to build an incantrix/wizard, but I think it would really overpower my fellow pcs, quickly.

So I've been searching and I really like the fighter/sorc/spellsword/eldritch knight builds I have been seeing. I am just concerned about losing spells and spell slots. Any comments?
PolasKasDorion
10-12-06, 11:35 AM I agree... I don't think the benefit of light armor adequately replaces the spells you'll lose. Armor is nice, but you can always pick up a scroll or two of Mage Armor and Shield... there's a +8 right there...

Extra spells will ALWAYS be useful. A crappy leather jacket with rhinestones is great for certain kinds of clubbing, but IMHO doesn't belong on sorcerers.
Kerbouchard
10-12-06, 01:13 PM I believe the Battle Sorcerer also follows the BAB progression of the Cleric does it not? I don't have the book with me at the moment. That would be the other boost you're trading off for. Higher BAB.

Kerbouchard
Lotus Crane
10-12-06, 01:20 PM I believe the Battle Sorcerer also follows the BAB progression of the Cleric does it not? I don't have the book with me at the moment. That would be the other boost you're trading off for. Higher BAB.
Which is only useful if you go straight battle sorcerer. The problem is that a 5th level sorcerer has +2 BAB, while a 5th level battle sorcerer has +3 BAB; a difference of only 1 point. If after that point, both go into a PrC, the battle sorcerer no longer benefits from his original BAB progression, but he does suffer from his reduced spell progression. In other words, most actual character builds cause a battle sorcerer to give up 9 spells per day and 9 spells known for at most +1 BAB, not +5 BAB.

The only way it would be a fair trade-off, would be if the battle sorcerer had an additional class ability along the lines of "if the battle sorcerer enters an arcane spellcasting PrC with low BAB progression, change it to medium BAB progression instead."
Seerow
10-12-06, 01:22 PM The only way it would be a fair trade-off, would be if the battle sorcerer had an additional class ability along the lines of "if the battle sorcerer enters an arcane spellcasting PrC with low BAB progression, change it to medium BAB progression instead."

Even then, what sort of Gish is entering a class with low BAB progression?
Jaxgaret
10-12-06, 03:20 PM They also get d8 HD.

So that hypothetical 5th-level BSorc would have on avg. 10 more HP than the 5th-level Sorc, along with +1 BAB and the ability to wear Light Armor - which is actually like having one more magical item slot; magical armors can do things other than add to AC.
ninjarabbit
10-12-06, 03:27 PM The sorcerer and battlesorcerer are completely different classes, with the sorcerer as a primary arcane caster and the battlesorcerer as a single classs gish.

When you compare the battlesorcerer to a fighter1/sorcerer8/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 or similar gish build it compares favorably.
spyderfreek
10-12-06, 03:56 PM Is there a Battlesorc sopme place other than the UA? Because I read it yesterday and I only remember changing spells for the armor. Did I miss something?
The_Shaman
10-12-06, 03:59 PM Does it? I think it generally can't get the 4th attack per round without some PrC help, and for me that's an important part of being a gish... a fighter 1/sorc6/EK10/Spsw1 has a BAB off 15 and 2 levels to spare. That next to guarantees a 4th attack per round.

Anyway: there is a feat (I think in one of the newer books) that allows you to cast arcane spells in armors 1 category heavier than you previously could. That would mean that a battle sorcerer can cast spells in a mithral full plate and with a mithral buckler: now that is something serious.

@Jaxgarer: I think an armor uses the same slot as tunics or vests, which can easily be enchanted... So I can't say it has more slots available. Now, a shield (mithral buckler, probably - so as you can cast with that hand and incur no ASF chance) is a distinct advantage. Only I don't remember if B-sorcerers are proficient with shields. I think not. Then again, not being proficient with a shield means you apply its AC penalty to a lot of rolls. The AC penalty for a mithral buckler, as you can guess, is 0 :P

Edit: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer . To the best of my knowledge, the information on this site is approved.
ninjarabbit
10-12-06, 04:42 PM Does it? I think it generally can't get the 4th attack per round without some PrC help, and for me that's an important part of being a gish... a fighter 1/sorc6/EK10/Spsw1 has a BAB off 15 and 2 levels to spare. That next to guarantees a 4th attack per round.

Anyway: there is a feat (I think in one of the newer books) that allows you to cast arcane spells in armors 1 category heavier than you previously could. That would mean that a battle sorcerer can cast spells in a mithral full plate and with a mithral buckler: now that is something serious.

@Jaxgarer: I think an armor uses the same slot as tunics or vests, which can easily be enchanted... So I can't say it has more slots available. Now, a shield (mithral buckler, probably - so as you can cast with that hand and incur no ASF chance) is a distinct advantage. Only I don't remember if B-sorcerers are proficient with shields. I think not. Then again, not being proficient with a shield means you apply its AC penalty to a lot of rolls. The AC penalty for a mithral buckler, as you can guess, is 0 :P

Edit: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer . To the best of my knowledge, the information on this site is approved.

battlesorcerer15/abjurantchampion5 (Complete Mage): 16 BAB and 20 CL
The_Shaman
10-12-06, 04:53 PM Don't know that one. Still, it could work on a normal Sorcerer gish build, I suppose. I guess the problem is that the Sorcerer gish will likely lose two spellcasting levels... Unless s/he has the militia feat or gets the weapon proficiencies in some other way so as not to take a fighter level for the EK (iirc aasimar and tieflings, as outsiders, are proficient in simple and martial weapons, and with the LA buyoff they can catch up with the group), that is. A sorcerer gish that is just one level behind with the spellcasting should be able to outdo a battle sorcerer in terms of magical power alone, I think. On the other hand, a battle sorcerer is a simpler build and will probably have better AC and hit points.
The Simbul
10-12-06, 06:18 PM The Battle Sorcerer isnt worth it.

The extra spell known at each spell level you lose are far better than the ability to cast spells in light armor. With those extra known spells I could easily take the following;

9th- Shapechange
8th- Lightning Ring [SpC]
7th- Greater Ironguard [SpC]
6th- Cacophonic Shield [SpC]
5th- Sonic Shield [PHBII]
4th- Stoneskin
3rd- Reverse Arrows [SpC]
2nd- Blur
1st- Shield

Any three of those spells could out value the benefits of armor, and combining the fact that many of them have long durations with a sorcerers spells per day, there is little reason for you to enter an encounter without at least one of those defenses up. Moreover, with all of them active at once I gain; a +4 shield bonus to AC (shield), 20% miss chance (blur), non-magical arrows are sent back at the attacker (reverse arrows), non-adamantine arrows are absorbed by DR (stoneskin), enemies who approach me take sonic damage (cacophonic shield), enemies adjacent to me take lightning damage (lightning ring), adjacent enemies who attack me take lightning damage then sonic damage and then are sent back to take more sonic damage (lightning ring plus sonic shield plus cacophonic shield), all magical and non-magical weapons made from metal pass through me harmlessly (greater ironguard), and because adamantine is a metal all weapons that dont pass through me are absorbed by DR (stoneskin). Meanwhile shapechange can let me shrug off most grapplers, get insane natural AC bonuses, or various other defensive supernatural or extraordinary qualities.
Wolfvyn
10-12-06, 06:41 PM You're right, the spells the battle sorc loses are more valuable than being able to cast in light armor, but the main advantage this class variant gives is simplicity. Instead of having to jump around in classes and worrying about meeting prereqs and such so you can be an effecive sword swinging caster. You can just take lvls in this class. Granted you're not as powerful as you could be otherwise, but there is less to keep track of. It's epsecially a good option for a newer player who isn't as savy at building characters as more experienced players.
Tralan
10-12-06, 06:48 PM Are you guys talking of the Warmage from Complete Arcane or the Sorcerer Variant from Unearthed Arcana?
ninjarabbit
10-12-06, 07:01 PM Feats like arcane strike and draconic breath and PrCs like sandshaper do help make up for the lack of spells known.
Wolfvyn
10-12-06, 08:54 PM we are talking about the battle sorcerer from UA.
Thelon Fairblade
10-13-06, 03:06 PM Battlesorcerer means you don't have to rely on the DM's permission to have 4 PRCs to make the perfect gish.

Battlesorcerer means you get to be a gish at 1st level, BUT STILL A FULL CASTER (unlike a Duskblade).

Battlesorcerer means you have 8 hp at 1st level, not 4 like a sorcerer.

BatSorc means you have freed up the "bracer" slot, not the "armor" slot -- you don't need bracers of armor and an enchanted vest, you just enchant your intrinsically 4 AC chain shirt. [Depending on DM, that could be a mithil breastplate; with Battlecaster deat, mithril fullplate!]

BatSorc means at 5th level you have 1 additional BAB... and the difference between a build with 4 attacks (16 BAB) and a build with 3 attacks (15 BAB) is just one BAB. Likewise, you might need BAB +3 to enter a PrC at 5th, something that the sorc can't do until 6th.

BatSorc means wielding a longsword instead of a spear. Okay, this is prety puny, but might be all you need to enter a PrC. Or, cater to the GM's preference for magical swords. Or just enjoy the mechanical benefit of "1d8 19/x2" instead of "1d6, 20/x2".

BUT, as The Simbul pointed out

BatSorc means GIVING UP a critical spell known at every level, and a not-as-critical daily spell slot at every level. A FULL caster you are, a PRIMARY caster you are not. (You do, however, have full scroll/wand/staff functionality like any other "sorcerer", again something a duskblade does not.)

I'd say the most telling issues, campaign to campaign to campaign, though are the 1st and 2nd, espcially the 1st. You aren't relying on any contrived combination of prestige classes, which may or may not exist and have entry requirements... you are a gish, from day 1, your whole career, and require no further permissions from the GM.
Valoy_Muniz
10-13-06, 03:18 PM Another thing is even thogh you trade 1 spell cast and 1 spell know per day you have a much better chance to live to level 2 as you have double the HP (without con bounes) and a better ac for when you run out of spells. Member leveling up from 1-20 is alot diffrent then leveling 10-20.
ninjarabbit
10-13-06, 07:07 PM Another point that needs to be made is that a battlesorcerer is going to have a different set of spells known than a regular sorcerer with the battlesorcerer having gish staples like haste and greater magic weapon.
The_Shaman
10-13-06, 07:15 PM Definitely. The two would probably fill different roles in the party.

Edit: A straight sorc certainly has good reasons to learn haste, if not MW/GMW; now, arcane strike or Battlecaster...
Marcotic
10-13-06, 09:16 PM um, i think batt sorc would be good if you wanted to multiclass into rogue or ranger or even cleric, it may be a good base for mystic thuerge
Wolfvyn
10-13-06, 10:16 PM Not really, multi classing hurts a battlesorcer far more than any other full caster because of his reduced spells known and spells per day. A normal sorc or wiz is a far better choice if you are going to multiclass. Infact unless you find a really good Prc, going anything but full battle sorc isn't really a good idea.

*edit unless of course you're just taking a one lvl dip to be able to cast in light armor.
Grey_Mage
10-14-06, 03:04 AM *notes that the battle sorceror gets that abilty already- one of the few benefits of the class.
Anguirus23
10-14-06, 03:18 AM I think the battle sorcerer works primarily as a compulsory variant: i.e. "if you are going to take sorcerer in my campaign, you're a battle sorcerer."

This gives the sorcerer its own identity, something its been lacking from day one. Wizard = studies to become the best caster. Psion = unlocks power of the mind to become the best manifester. Battle sorcerer = intuitive magic user who can fight. Probably none of them are as powerful as the cleric, but all of them do something that the cleric can't do.

As has been pointed out, the battle sorcerer kind of shoots itself in the foot right off the bat compared to the regular sorcerer, who is essentially a weaker wizard with a different casting method. However, it is instantly the default gish class. You might even consider disallowing eldritch knight and/or duskblade if you use it. You don't have a whole lot of tricks, but you are very good with the ones that you know (full CL) and between that, armor & weapons, and better BAB, you look very dangerous indeed.
texanhick20
10-14-06, 07:45 AM Before Complete Arcane came out, I started a gish useing the Battle Sorcerer

fighter 1, Battlesorc 6 Spellsword 3,

at the end of it all i was a 15th level character,

I could cast spells wearing Mithral Fullplate, (This was before Battlecaster feat)

I had the Arcane Strike feat (got it when it came out)
and the item familiar feat

My +1 Flaming Adamantine Greatsword was my Item Familiar,

at 15th level, it was

+3
Flaming,
Prismatic (on a successful crit it did pris spray)

few other things, all in all a weapon of similar abilty would have cost the price of a +7 weapon.

I could in two rounds attack with my sword, deal 13 d6 damage (10 fireball channeled into the sword, 1 from flaming, and 2 from it being a greatsword) and 5d4 damage Pluss Strength and a half, with all the bonuses from the weapon and my high BaB, I was swinging at something like +23 before useing power attack, if I really went for it, i could cast Truestrike before making the attack for a total of

11d6 fire 2d6 Adamantine, 5d4 arcane energy +10 power attack two handed, in damage at +38,

now adays I'd have Blade of Blood on that too for another 3d6 energy damage

on top of that I took the sudden metamagic feats and would sudden maximize the fireball in my sword, so I was atleast doing a /minimum/ of 78 points of damage with /one/ attack

now adays it would be 83 damage minimum, 125 maximum, with out a crit

to top it all off, that cap can probably be raised a little more, arcane fusion, and arcane fusion greater, you cast something like fireball/sorching ray into it for the lower level spell, for the higher level spell, pair of fireballs, both of which would be effected by a sudden maximize.

on top of that, the top of the line spell sword ability to double channel..

ohh look, i channel two greater arcane fusions into the sword, that's /four/ fireballs, so now I'm doing 41d6 fire 2d6 adamantine, 7d4 arcane (arcane strike) 3d6 blade of blood, +10 from power attack +str and a half..

:) and that's just raw numbers before you take in to consideration any /other/ boosting effects you may have, bonus to the sword, and what not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spyderfreek 10-12-06, 10:37 AM	Why in so many of the GISH builds using sorc is it recommended to take battle sorc? Is wearing armor ffor the few levels you need to wear it that big of a deal that you would give up spells over the long run? Is this the only reason or am I missing something from the text? I have suddenly become very indecisive about my next character, as my DM has big trouble dealing with an ok mage. I wanted to build an incantrix/wizard, but I think it would really overpower my fellow pcs, quickly. So I've been searching and I really like the fighter/sorc/spellsword/eldritch knight builds I have been seeing. I am just concerned about losing spells and spell slots. Any comments?
PolasKasDorion 10-12-06, 11:35 AM	I agree... I don't think the benefit of light armor adequately replaces the spells you'll lose. Armor is nice, but you can always pick up a scroll or two of Mage Armor and Shield... there's a +8 right there... Extra spells will ALWAYS be useful. A crappy leather jacket with rhinestones is great for certain kinds of clubbing, but IMHO doesn't belong on sorcerers.
Kerbouchard 10-12-06, 01:13 PM	I believe the Battle Sorcerer also follows the BAB progression of the Cleric does it not? I don't have the book with me at the moment. That would be the other boost you're trading off for. Higher BAB. Kerbouchard
Lotus Crane 10-12-06, 01:20 PM	I believe the Battle Sorcerer also follows the BAB progression of the Cleric does it not? I don't have the book with me at the moment. That would be the other boost you're trading off for. Higher BAB. Which is only useful if you go straight battle sorcerer. The problem is that a 5th level sorcerer has +2 BAB, while a 5th level battle sorcerer has +3 BAB; a difference of only 1 point. If after that point, both go into a PrC, the battle sorcerer no longer benefits from his original BAB progression, but he does suffer from his reduced spell progression. In other words, most actual character builds cause a battle sorcerer to give up 9 spells per day and 9 spells known for at most +1 BAB, not +5 BAB. The only way it would be a fair trade-off, would be if the battle sorcerer had an additional class ability along the lines of "if the battle sorcerer enters an arcane spellcasting PrC with low BAB progression, change it to medium BAB progression instead."
Seerow 10-12-06, 01:22 PM	The only way it would be a fair trade-off, would be if the battle sorcerer had an additional class ability along the lines of "if the battle sorcerer enters an arcane spellcasting PrC with low BAB progression, change it to medium BAB progression instead." Even then, what sort of Gish is entering a class with low BAB progression?
Jaxgaret 10-12-06, 03:20 PM	They also get d8 HD. So that hypothetical 5th-level BSorc would have on avg. 10 more HP than the 5th-level Sorc, along with +1 BAB and the ability to wear Light Armor - which is actually like having one more magical item slot; magical armors can do things other than add to AC.
ninjarabbit 10-12-06, 03:27 PM	The sorcerer and battlesorcerer are completely different classes, with the sorcerer as a primary arcane caster and the battlesorcerer as a single classs gish. When you compare the battlesorcerer to a fighter1/sorcerer8/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 or similar gish build it compares favorably.
spyderfreek 10-12-06, 03:56 PM	Is there a Battlesorc sopme place other than the UA? Because I read it yesterday and I only remember changing spells for the armor. Did I miss something?
The_Shaman 10-12-06, 03:59 PM	Does it? I think it generally can't get the 4th attack per round without some PrC help, and for me that's an important part of being a gish... a fighter 1/sorc6/EK10/Spsw1 has a BAB off 15 and 2 levels to spare. That next to guarantees a 4th attack per round. Anyway: there is a feat (I think in one of the newer books) that allows you to cast arcane spells in armors 1 category heavier than you previously could. That would mean that a battle sorcerer can cast spells in a mithral full plate and with a mithral buckler: now that is something serious. @Jaxgarer: I think an armor uses the same slot as tunics or vests, which can easily be enchanted... So I can't say it has more slots available. Now, a shield (mithral buckler, probably - so as you can cast with that hand and incur no ASF chance) is a distinct advantage. Only I don't remember if B-sorcerers are proficient with shields. I think not. Then again, not being proficient with a shield means you apply its AC penalty to a lot of rolls. The AC penalty for a mithral buckler, as you can guess, is 0 :P Edit: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer . To the best of my knowledge, the information on this site is approved.
ninjarabbit 10-12-06, 04:42 PM	Does it? I think it generally can't get the 4th attack per round without some PrC help, and for me that's an important part of being a gish... a fighter 1/sorc6/EK10/Spsw1 has a BAB off 15 and 2 levels to spare. That next to guarantees a 4th attack per round. Anyway: there is a feat (I think in one of the newer books) that allows you to cast arcane spells in armors 1 category heavier than you previously could. That would mean that a battle sorcerer can cast spells in a mithral full plate and with a mithral buckler: now that is something serious. @Jaxgarer: I think an armor uses the same slot as tunics or vests, which can easily be enchanted... So I can't say it has more slots available. Now, a shield (mithral buckler, probably - so as you can cast with that hand and incur no ASF chance) is a distinct advantage. Only I don't remember if B-sorcerers are proficient with shields. I think not. Then again, not being proficient with a shield means you apply its AC penalty to a lot of rolls. The AC penalty for a mithral buckler, as you can guess, is 0 :P Edit: http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer . To the best of my knowledge, the information on this site is approved. battlesorcerer15/abjurantchampion5 (Complete Mage): 16 BAB and 20 CL
The_Shaman 10-12-06, 04:53 PM	Don't know that one. Still, it could work on a normal Sorcerer gish build, I suppose. I guess the problem is that the Sorcerer gish will likely lose two spellcasting levels... Unless s/he has the militia feat or gets the weapon proficiencies in some other way so as not to take a fighter level for the EK (iirc aasimar and tieflings, as outsiders, are proficient in simple and martial weapons, and with the LA buyoff they can catch up with the group), that is. A sorcerer gish that is just one level behind with the spellcasting should be able to outdo a battle sorcerer in terms of magical power alone, I think. On the other hand, a battle sorcerer is a simpler build and will probably have better AC and hit points.
The Simbul 10-12-06, 06:18 PM	The Battle Sorcerer isnt worth it. The extra spell known at each spell level you lose are far better than the ability to cast spells in light armor. With those extra known spells I could easily take the following; 9th- Shapechange 8th- Lightning Ring [SpC] 7th- Greater Ironguard [SpC] 6th- Cacophonic Shield [SpC] 5th- Sonic Shield [PHBII] 4th- Stoneskin 3rd- Reverse Arrows [SpC] 2nd- Blur 1st- Shield Any three of those spells could out value the benefits of armor, and combining the fact that many of them have long durations with a sorcerers spells per day, there is little reason for you to enter an encounter without at least one of those defenses up. Moreover, with all of them active at once I gain; a +4 shield bonus to AC (shield), 20% miss chance (blur), non-magical arrows are sent back at the attacker (reverse arrows), non-adamantine arrows are absorbed by DR (stoneskin), enemies who approach me take sonic damage (cacophonic shield), enemies adjacent to me take lightning damage (lightning ring), adjacent enemies who attack me take lightning damage then sonic damage and then are sent back to take more sonic damage (lightning ring plus sonic shield plus cacophonic shield), all magical and non-magical weapons made from metal pass through me harmlessly (greater ironguard), and because adamantine is a metal all weapons that dont pass through me are absorbed by DR (stoneskin). Meanwhile shapechange can let me shrug off most grapplers, get insane natural AC bonuses, or various other defensive supernatural or extraordinary qualities.
Wolfvyn 10-12-06, 06:41 PM	You're right, the spells the battle sorc loses are more valuable than being able to cast in light armor, but the main advantage this class variant gives is simplicity. Instead of having to jump around in classes and worrying about meeting prereqs and such so you can be an effecive sword swinging caster. You can just take lvls in this class. Granted you're not as powerful as you could be otherwise, but there is less to keep track of. It's epsecially a good option for a newer player who isn't as savy at building characters as more experienced players.
Tralan 10-12-06, 06:48 PM	Are you guys talking of the Warmage from Complete Arcane or the Sorcerer Variant from Unearthed Arcana?
ninjarabbit 10-12-06, 07:01 PM	Feats like arcane strike and draconic breath and PrCs like sandshaper do help make up for the lack of spells known.
Wolfvyn 10-12-06, 08:54 PM	we are talking about the battle sorcerer from UA.
Thelon Fairblade 10-13-06, 03:06 PM	Battlesorcerer means you don't have to rely on the DM's permission to have 4 PRCs to make the perfect gish. Battlesorcerer means you get to be a gish at 1st level, BUT STILL A FULL CASTER (unlike a Duskblade). Battlesorcerer means you have 8 hp at 1st level, not 4 like a sorcerer. BatSorc means you have freed up the "bracer" slot, not the "armor" slot -- you don't need bracers of armor and an enchanted vest, you just enchant your intrinsically 4 AC chain shirt. [Depending on DM, that could be a mithil breastplate; with Battlecaster deat, mithril fullplate!] BatSorc means at 5th level you have 1 additional BAB... and the difference between a build with 4 attacks (16 BAB) and a build with 3 attacks (15 BAB) is just one BAB. Likewise, you might need BAB +3 to enter a PrC at 5th, something that the sorc can't do until 6th. BatSorc means wielding a longsword instead of a spear. Okay, this is prety puny, but might be all you need to enter a PrC. Or, cater to the GM's preference for magical swords. Or just enjoy the mechanical benefit of "1d8 19/x2" instead of "1d6, 20/x2". BUT, as The Simbul pointed out BatSorc means GIVING UP a critical spell known at every level, and a not-as-critical daily spell slot at every level. A FULL caster you are, a PRIMARY caster you are not. (You do, however, have full scroll/wand/staff functionality like any other "sorcerer", again something a duskblade does not.) I'd say the most telling issues, campaign to campaign to campaign, though are the 1st and 2nd, espcially the 1st. You aren't relying on any contrived combination of prestige classes, which may or may not exist and have entry requirements... you are a gish, from day 1, your whole career, and require no further permissions from the GM.
Valoy_Muniz 10-13-06, 03:18 PM	Another thing is even thogh you trade 1 spell cast and 1 spell know per day you have a much better chance to live to level 2 as you have double the HP (without con bounes) and a better ac for when you run out of spells. Member leveling up from 1-20 is alot diffrent then leveling 10-20.
ninjarabbit 10-13-06, 07:07 PM	Another point that needs to be made is that a battlesorcerer is going to have a different set of spells known than a regular sorcerer with the battlesorcerer having gish staples like haste and greater magic weapon.
The_Shaman 10-13-06, 07:15 PM	Definitely. The two would probably fill different roles in the party. Edit: A straight sorc certainly has good reasons to learn haste, if not MW/GMW; now, arcane strike or Battlecaster...
Marcotic 10-13-06, 09:16 PM	um, i think batt sorc would be good if you wanted to multiclass into rogue or ranger or even cleric, it may be a good base for mystic thuerge
Wolfvyn 10-13-06, 10:16 PM	Not really, multi classing hurts a battlesorcer far more than any other full caster because of his reduced spells known and spells per day. A normal sorc or wiz is a far better choice if you are going to multiclass. Infact unless you find a really good Prc, going anything but full battle sorc isn't really a good idea. *edit unless of course you're just taking a one lvl dip to be able to cast in light armor.
Grey_Mage 10-14-06, 03:04 AM	*notes that the battle sorceror gets that abilty already- one of the few benefits of the class.
Anguirus23 10-14-06, 03:18 AM	I think the battle sorcerer works primarily as a compulsory variant: i.e. "if you are going to take sorcerer in my campaign, you're a battle sorcerer." This gives the sorcerer its own identity, something its been lacking from day one. Wizard = studies to become the best caster. Psion = unlocks power of the mind to become the best manifester. Battle sorcerer = intuitive magic user who can fight. Probably none of them are as powerful as the cleric, but all of them do something that the cleric can't do. As has been pointed out, the battle sorcerer kind of shoots itself in the foot right off the bat compared to the regular sorcerer, who is essentially a weaker wizard with a different casting method. However, it is instantly the default gish class. You might even consider disallowing eldritch knight and/or duskblade if you use it. You don't have a whole lot of tricks, but you are very good with the ones that you know (full CL) and between that, armor & weapons, and better BAB, you look very dangerous indeed.
texanhick20 10-14-06, 07:45 AM	Before Complete Arcane came out, I started a gish useing the Battle Sorcerer fighter 1, Battlesorc 6 Spellsword 3, at the end of it all i was a 15th level character, I could cast spells wearing Mithral Fullplate, (This was before Battlecaster feat) I had the Arcane Strike feat (got it when it came out) and the item familiar feat My +1 Flaming Adamantine Greatsword was my Item Familiar, at 15th level, it was +3 Flaming, Prismatic (on a successful crit it did pris spray) few other things, all in all a weapon of similar abilty would have cost the price of a +7 weapon. I could in two rounds attack with my sword, deal 13 d6 damage (10 fireball channeled into the sword, 1 from flaming, and 2 from it being a greatsword) and 5d4 damage Pluss Strength and a half, with all the bonuses from the weapon and my high BaB, I was swinging at something like +23 before useing power attack, if I really went for it, i could cast Truestrike before making the attack for a total of 11d6 fire 2d6 Adamantine, 5d4 arcane energy +10 power attack two handed, in damage at +38, now adays I'd have Blade of Blood on that too for another 3d6 energy damage on top of that I took the sudden metamagic feats and would sudden maximize the fireball in my sword, so I was atleast doing a /minimum/ of 78 points of damage with /one/ attack now adays it would be 83 damage minimum, 125 maximum, with out a crit to top it all off, that cap can probably be raised a little more, arcane fusion, and arcane fusion greater, you cast something like fireball/sorching ray into it for the lower level spell, for the higher level spell, pair of fireballs, both of which would be effected by a sudden maximize. on top of that, the top of the line spell sword ability to double channel.. ohh look, i channel two greater arcane fusions into the sword, that's /four/ fireballs, so now I'm doing 41d6 fire 2d6 adamantine, 7d4 arcane (arcane strike) 3d6 blade of blood, +10 from power attack +str and a half.. :) and that's just raw numbers before you take in to consideration any /other/ boosting effects you may have, bonus to the sword, and what not.