Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kynn Elfson 05-17-05, 03:04 AM	I was considering whether or not the Battle Sorc is worth taking, you lose spell quantity (which you already have to few in) but you gain better saves, HD, light armour, single martial weapon, I am torn about whether or not its worth taking over the core sorc. :D
Count Arioch the 28th 05-17-05, 03:09 AM	I've heard from people who have played the class that it's a steep price to pay for the things you get.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-17-05, 08:12 AM	when UA came out, i thought the battle sorecerer was extremely weak. the lost spells known weakened it tremendously and it still couldn't fight well. to add insult to injury, gish classes like EK helped sorcs more than battle sorcs. however, with draconic feats from CA they can be pretty good.
Maraxus 05-17-05, 10:07 PM	Definitly the battle Sorc can not replace the sorcerer! He has not enough spells to nuke like a sorcerer and gets the good spells so late, he will not have acceptable domination/kill/whatever spells. The battle sorcerer has to be compared to other warrior/caster crossover classes, namely the bard and the cleric. Here, probably the createst problem is, that the battle sorcerer still has problems with armor. However, he shout balance this with always having mirror images up. Polimorph compedes with righteus might and the sorcerer has more really good spells... or at least he could have, if he didn't have to choose. A good selection of spells is the key to a successful battle sorcerer.
DM Zoc 05-17-05, 11:56 PM	I expect elven battle sorcerers to be the standard for all of those Link-clones. (Before you go out and call him a warrior, remember that he always needed to get circumstance bonuses against anyone with a decent AC because he just can't get through heavy armor.)
Votan 05-18-05, 12:09 AM	I was considering whether or not the Battle Sorc is worth taking, you lose spell quantity (which you already have to few in) but you gain better saves, HD, light armour, single martial weapon, I am torn about whether or not its worth taking over the core sorc. :D It depedns on what you plan to play. A battlesorcerer needs to synergize his spells and his melee ability. As a fighter using buffing, arcane strike and a few wide application spells (like polymorph) they can be pretty good. They are better then the Divine Crusader which has similar properties as a class. But they cannot compete as an alternative to a pure caster and if you play a batlesorcerer like a pure caster (in the back rank casting spells) you are way better off with a pure sorcerer from what I can tell. Also note that prestige classing them is tough because they give up the major advantgae of the class (HPs and BAB) without improving the major weakness (fewer spells known). This can be good if you want a Fighter/Magic-user in a game with restrictions on prestige classing.
Kynn Elfson 05-18-05, 12:27 PM	well I wanted to play a bard-ish character, minus the bard-ish aspect. But after consideration (and the imput from everyone here) I have realised that the BS is a pretty lame class, but I am working on a similar class to fill the bard's niche (support fighter, some spellage, mostly the "face" of the party) without having to be a bard. Don't get me wrong, I like bards, but flavour-wise its not what I'm lookin for.
Votan 05-18-05, 02:03 PM	well I wanted to play a bard-ish character, minus the bard-ish aspect. But after consideration (and the imput from everyone here) I have realised that the BS is a pretty lame class, but I am working on a similar class to fill the bard's niche (support fighter, some spellage, mostly the "face" of the party) without having to be a bard. Don't get me wrong, I like bards, but flavour-wise its not what I'm lookin for. Fair enough. I would not call a battlesorcerer lame (they aren't) but rather niche. They are an alternate way to build a fighting class and they actually have some advantages over classical fighter types at very high levels. They'll never hit as hard as a barbarian or use tricks as effectively as a Figfhter but they can use spells to compensate. Of course, their level 6 feat almost has to be arcane strike as they get so much out of this particular feat. They also have to take the standard sorcerer approach of versitility to a whole new levels. Spells like Glitterdust and Polymorph are essential.
Kynn Elfson 05-20-05, 12:39 AM	well...how about ftr 1 /sor XX /EK XX?? That's kinda the direction I was thinkin on heading :D
Kadasbrass 05-20-05, 02:04 AM	My first character was Battle Sorcerer, You have to be really careful about the spells you pick, and at lower levels you will have little as a spell caster. A pure Battle Sorc will have access to higher level spells sooner then Sorc/Fig/EK combo and the ability to cast in light armor. Personally as a Battle Sorc I used Haste with Arcane Strike (feat from CW) to dish out my damage.
Votan 05-20-05, 03:34 AM	well...how about ftr 1 /sor XX /EK XX?? That's kinda the direction I was thinkin on heading :D I almost always prefer barbarian to fighter in this type of build. You get 2 more hit points, fast movement (useful for getting out of trouble on the battlefield) and 8 skill points. Plus you can rage which is a cool ability to have. The only way that I would not go this route is if either: a) it did not match the flavor of the character b) I had a really, really good use for that first level feat If it is a) then I'd also consider Ranger as an option. An extra good save and an oodle of skill points are kinda nice. With the sorcerer, in the unlikely event that LG plus a code of conduct fit my character conception (unlikely seems too mild a word for it), I'd consider Paladin. A second level of Paladin at any point adds CHA to saves which can make a huge difference for a primary CHA caster. But Fighter is usually my last choice of the four base classes with +1 BAB and martial weapon proficency for an Eldritch Knight (although everything in the Complete Warrior is worse). A fighter can be a Spellsowrd but I hate having feat requirments givne how feat hungry fighter/magic-users are (plus I dislike one level dips). I find that a Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sacred Exorcist 3 is the nicest choice. You can use those nice Barbarian starting skills to begin the long, slow process of cross classing two knowledge skills. You end up with BAB +16, Caster level 18 (20th level with practiced caster) giving a ninth level spell eventually and 12 + 10d6 +6d4 +3d8 hit points. Saves are F/R/W 12/6/11 which isn't bad. The only annoying point (and it is annoying for ALL eldritch Knight builds) is the early levels where you end up weak at casting (those really ncie 4th level spells only show up at 10th level) and weak at fighting (at 7th level you have a BAB of +4 and 12 + 6d4 hitpoints which is getting a bit thin).
Lord Zeb 05-20-05, 07:39 AM	Well I haven't played one, but I rebuilt my long running gish PC (ftr/wiz/ homebrew spellguard PrC) as one when UA came out, just to see how he would've looked versus what my organic character can do. The only difference was that my Wiz can select a bunch of different spells as needed....which is the case of any Prep vs Spont caster .... if I had been playing a Sorcerer instead of Wizard the comparison would be more apt. Anywho, comparing the old vs new they appeared very comparable. Spell selection is key.... I ended up giving the BS version my gish's iconic spells (ones he uses over and over). Bonuses to Battle Sorcerer: * cast in light armor --> pick up Battle Caster from CA and improve your armor proficiences if you want some better armor for AC. * You don't have a delayed entrance to new spells!!! -1 to spells EXCEPT when there you can only know 1. * medium BAB * sorc/wiz spells to choose from * able to use the excellent arcane strike feat I think it looks like a decent class, I'd definitely like to play one someday. Just some random thoughts... Zeb
Kuraito 05-21-05, 09:51 AM	By the numbers its actually unbalanced. You lose 1 spell per day and 1 spell known and in return you get: go from 1/2 Bab to 3/4 Bab Ability to wear Light Armor(with no spell failure) Proficent in a One Handed Martial weapon go from D4 to D8 HD By the math, its HORRENDOUSLY unbalanced, as you give up so little for so much. I will admit that it works out a bit different in practice but really, the only thing that hurts is having to wait another level to get the next level of spells. The other losses are practically nothing compared to what you gain. I think the battle sorcerer is better then the real sorcerer in the long run as the having to wait an extra level drawback is short lived. At 20th level, battle sorcerers are WAY more powerful then Sorcerers since the "waiting" drawback has been passed.
Lord Schpungus 05-21-05, 10:34 AM	1 spell per day PER LEVEL and 1 spell known PER LEVEL. You're giving up insane amounts of versatility by giving up even 1 spell known, and you're giving up Ten. You have Ten less tricks up your sleeve, and the benefit is you don't die quite as fast in melee. Please, read the description of the class before you post.
Maraxus 05-21-05, 10:43 AM	Only if you write it that way. If you write it like that: One Level 1 spell per day less One Level 2 spell per day less One Level 3 spell per day less One Level 4 spell per day less One Level 5 spell per day less One Level 6 spell per day less One Level 7 spell per day less One Level 8 spell per day less One Level 9 spell per day less One Level 1 spell known less One Level 2 spell known less One Level 3 spell known less One Level 4 spell known less One Level 5 spell known less One Level 6 spell known less One Level 7 spell known less One Level 8 spell known less One Level 9 spell known less Compared to: Combat abilities increase from "virtually not existent" to "still not enough".
Kuraito 05-21-05, 08:03 PM	"Still not enough"? Obviously, someone dosn't know the value of secondary combatants. 3/4 bab classes are invaluable to combat as they provide decent melee pressure. You give up a spell per day per level, and a spell known per level, to double your HP, jump your BAB up a step, raise your AC substaitnially (Armor is cheaper, more effecient and often better then braces and mage armors, combined with Battle Caster from Arcane, you start giving the cleric a run for his money as a combatant). You give up a sliver of your spellcasting to go from worthless in combat to be a worthwhile secondary combatant. Someone who can defend himself and exert melee pressure and use some of those great buff and touch spells on himself without fear. What you give up is NOTHING compared to what you gain. "Oh, no, I lose a spell per day, i'm down to 5 per spell level....hm, that seems more then enough, especially since spells arn't my only resource anymore. Damn, I do lose those extra spells.....but I have a more defined role, I'm a caster/combatant, not just arcane suport. that sure does help my spells choices." I repeat, the only thing that truly hurts is waiting the extra level to up your spells. Compare the over all casting ability of a battle sorcerer and a sorcerer, not much of a difference. Compare them in bab, HP, AC and over all combat ability. BIG difference.
Lord Zeb 05-21-05, 08:24 PM	I repeat, the only thing that truly hurts is waiting the extra level to up your spells. I agree with everything you said except for the above....you actually don't wait an extra level to gain a new spell.. the class reads "minus one spell unless you only know one spell that level". If you google battle sorcerer there are some cleaned up versions out there (it is OGL after all) that show the spell charts very nicely. This is a good example... (http://www.jerefoley.com/thera/battlesorcerer.html) I think it's a great class.... if the BS were the core sorcerer I don't think as many people would complain about the sorcerer class. :D Zeb
Maraxus 05-21-05, 08:30 PM	Kuraito: :D I know it. :) I just wanted to mention, that one could also discribe it another way and it would not look that good for the battle sorc. And no, I think, it's not only the one level delay, it's also the reduced maximum of spells known (spells per day should not be that much of a problem). I think overall, it's quite balanced. The have diffrent roles, are hardly compareable but since the battle sorc is not that much to strong in his profession, I would say, that he is balanced.
ninjarabbit 05-21-05, 10:48 PM	The problem is that the battle sorcerer can't function well as either the primary arcane caster or as a warrior. Only in large parties can a battle sorcerer be effective when others are filling the roles as primary arcane caster and warrior.
Kuraito 05-21-05, 11:30 PM	wow, I didn't know it didn't delay your spel level advancement. So my arguments the same, just throw out all that crap about a down side. Oh, I lose a spell per day per level and a spell known per level and in return, I get combat abilities comparable to a cleric. why the hell WOULDN'T i make that trade? Its win win.
Votan 05-22-05, 12:43 AM	wow, I didn't know it didn't delay your spel level advancement. So my arguments the same, just throw out all that crap about a down side. Oh, I lose a spell per day per level and a spell known per level and in return, I get combat abilities comparable to a cleric. why the hell WOULDN'T i make that trade? Its win win. Because you want flexibility in spells. In mechanical terms, both the Cleric (especially with Domain Spontaneity) and the favored Soul have 3/4 BAB, better armor, equivalent weaponry and more speical abilities (domains for the cleric, weapon specialization for the favored soul). If a broad spectrum of spells known wasn't a key point in these builds, I could pick two decent domains, add in domain spontaneity and end up with nearly the same spontaneous casting flexibility as a battle sorcerer (except, of course, I'd be able to prepare divine spells as an alternative in these slots). A cleric with fire and travel, for example, really does hit that niche well. He'll have the same number of spell slots overall, divine protection spells, divine buff spells, excellent attack and mobility spells plus a bette fortitude save (and heavy armor),. Arcane strike is a plus for the Battlesorcerer but if that is available then the divine feats are as well (divine Might, divine metamagic, domian spontaniety and so forth). Cleric have better skills (Favored Souls do not, however, appear to have a better list). Before one argues that the cleric burns a lot of slots on healing, a Favored Soul could easily not know any healing spell. Now, let us compare a battlesorcerer to a druid . . . :) It's a decent option for a fighter/magic-user but losing spell options hurts alot (I've tried to build a decent Sorcerer list and the confines of the Battlesorcerer list make it especially hard). Heck, despite the loss of a point on hit die, the Wilder from the XPH is closer to the BS than the Sorcerer and it isn't seen a terribly unbalanced.
StarKiller1 05-22-05, 08:19 AM	There are Bloodline feats from Dragon (different than the Bloodline feats from UA) that add one spell per spell level to the character. You don't get to pick the spells as they are predefined based on the Bloodline but they tend to be a lot of utility spells and might help overcome the known spell lost problem.
Kuraito 05-23-05, 01:04 AM	Because you want flexibility in spells. In mechanical terms, both the Cleric (especially with Domain Spontaneity) and the favored Soul have 3/4 BAB, better armor, equivalent weaponry and more speical abilities (domains for the cleric, weapon specialization for the favored soul). If a broad spectrum of spells known wasn't a key point in these builds, I could pick two decent domains, add in domain spontaneity and end up with nearly the same spontaneous casting flexibility as a battle sorcerer (except, of course, I'd be able to prepare divine spells as an alternative in these slots). A cleric with fire and travel, for example, really does hit that niche well. He'll have the same number of spell slots overall, divine protection spells, divine buff spells, excellent attack and mobility spells plus a bette fortitude save (and heavy armor),. Arcane strike is a plus for the Battlesorcerer but if that is available then the divine feats are as well (divine Might, divine metamagic, domian spontaniety and so forth). Cleric have better skills (Favored Souls do not, however, appear to have a better list). Before one argues that the cleric burns a lot of slots on healing, a Favored Soul could easily not know any healing spell. Now, let us compare a battlesorcerer to a druid . . . :) It's a decent option for a fighter/magic-user but losing spell options hurts alot (I've tried to build a decent Sorcerer list and the confines of the Battlesorcerer list make it especially hard). Heck, despite the loss of a point on hit die, the Wilder from the XPH is closer to the BS than the Sorcerer and it isn't seen a terribly unbalanced. Oh, I agree with you completely. Battle sorcerer is fine when balanced against other classs. Its battle sorcerer vs Sorcerer that it kicks ass. Really, Your end spellcasting ability is just sliver under sorcerer but you get SO MUCH for so little. Battle Sorcerer vs sorcerer? Dosn't even compare. I can't think of any time you WOULDN'T want to make that trade unless it didn't fit your character.