Battle sorcerer Archmage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle sorcerer Archmage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ariath Ska'Vhor
08-16-06, 09:42 PM My friend is in a high level campaign (or was, not sure) and plays a battle sorcerer/archmage and I'm wondering if he should have the same BAB and hitdice as a battle sorcerer instead of an archmage seeing as he's still going at the same spells known/per day rate of the battle sorcerer. It seems to me like it should really have it.
DM Zoc
08-16-06, 09:52 PM As a house rule, that's great. I once house ruled that a Mystic Theurge should have "the worse progression of hit die and BAB from either of the two spellcasting classes which qualify for Mystic Theurge"; this would allow a paladin (evil variant)/hexblade to continue with good BAB and a d10 since his only class feature progression is two halves of lousy spellcasting.

I would make a similar argument that the archmage, or heirophant for that matter, should use the same progression as the qualifying class, rather than giving a fixed value based on what they thought those values should have been. It's kind of like hard-coding, which I have always been told was a bad thing.

From a rules standpoint, the archmage still has a d4 and lousy BAB.
Regwon
08-16-06, 09:55 PM But as a Archmage you get things that a Battle sorcerer wouldnt. its like saying if im a barbarian that multiclasses as a fighter i should still get d12 HD because im still whacking things. i dont have the right book on hand so i cant look but im guessing the battle sorcerer sacrifices some spell power for the extra BAB and HD, but you wouldnt expect them to get better HD and BAB for taking a archane caster class. if you want to have the best of two classes you might enjoy a gestalt game. ive just finished playing one. it was great fun.
The_Shaman
08-17-06, 07:47 AM Well, theoretically a battle sorcerer could be an archmage... but how - and when - are you going to meet the spells known requirement? If you do, I don't think anyone will begrudge you a few levels of medium BAB :D
Ariath Ska'Vhor
08-17-06, 05:19 PM But as a Archmage you get things that a Battle sorcerer wouldnt. its like saying if im a barbarian that multiclasses as a fighter i should still get d12 HD because im still whacking things. i dont have the right book on hand so i cant look but im guessing the battle sorcerer sacrifices some spell power for the extra BAB and HD, but you wouldnt expect them to get better HD and BAB for taking a archane caster class. if you want to have the best of two classes you might enjoy a gestalt game. ive just finished playing one. it was great fun.
well the thing about that is a battle sorcerer loses one spell per day and spell known over the standard sorcerer in order to gain medium BAB and a d8 hitdice. So if you're going into the archmage prestige class, normally only for characters who still only have d4 and lowest BAB then having the same BAB and HD of a standard sorcerer with the same spellcasting capaibilities then it's less powerful than a regular archmage.
StevenO
08-17-06, 11:47 PM I wouldn't change the Archmage just because a Battle Sorcerer is entering it.

A big reason is that over those five levels of Archmage you would only gain a +1 BAB about +10 hp if using the BS's 3/4 BAB and d8 HD. That increase may not be much but given the BS's extremely limited spells known each ability that offers new options (elemental mastery) greatly increases the characters overall power. Yes, it may be hard for a BS to get into the class but not all PrCs work well with the classes that can enter them.

For some 10 level PrCs that can be entered much earlier such as the Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge I can see making the change. These classes don't fundamentally change your spellcasting like an Archmage can but exsist mostly to make the old multiclass concepts more acceptable.
runestar
08-18-06, 07:36 AM As a house rule, that's great.
So are you saying that a dragon who takes lvs in archmage could continue improving his stats as if taking additional dragon HD(good bab/saves, d12s)? ;)
The_Shaman
08-18-06, 08:26 AM Well, he/she/it will be kicking posteriors anyway, I say why not?
DM Zoc
08-18-06, 04:39 PM So are you saying that a dragon who takes lvs in archmage could continue improving his stats as if taking additional dragon HD(good bab/saves, d12s)? ;)
If he qualifies by merit of the sorcery gained through his racial hit dice, yes. But remember that Archmage levels don't go toward improving the breath weapon, advancing an age category, or any of a dozen other things.

I mean, it would be a good house rule, yes.
Joseph_Silver
08-18-06, 11:32 PM I suggest that you stick to being a pure battle sorcerer. It is very difficult for a battle sorcerer to meet the archmage's prerequisites.

The battle sorcerer is my favorite base class, by the way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ariath Ska'Vhor 08-16-06, 09:42 PM	My friend is in a high level campaign (or was, not sure) and plays a battle sorcerer/archmage and I'm wondering if he should have the same BAB and hitdice as a battle sorcerer instead of an archmage seeing as he's still going at the same spells known/per day rate of the battle sorcerer. It seems to me like it should really have it.
DM Zoc 08-16-06, 09:52 PM	As a house rule, that's great. I once house ruled that a Mystic Theurge should have "the worse progression of hit die and BAB from either of the two spellcasting classes which qualify for Mystic Theurge"; this would allow a paladin (evil variant)/hexblade to continue with good BAB and a d10 since his only class feature progression is two halves of lousy spellcasting. I would make a similar argument that the archmage, or heirophant for that matter, should use the same progression as the qualifying class, rather than giving a fixed value based on what they thought those values should have been. It's kind of like hard-coding, which I have always been told was a bad thing. From a rules standpoint, the archmage still has a d4 and lousy BAB.
Regwon 08-16-06, 09:55 PM	But as a Archmage you get things that a Battle sorcerer wouldnt. its like saying if im a barbarian that multiclasses as a fighter i should still get d12 HD because im still whacking things. i dont have the right book on hand so i cant look but im guessing the battle sorcerer sacrifices some spell power for the extra BAB and HD, but you wouldnt expect them to get better HD and BAB for taking a archane caster class. if you want to have the best of two classes you might enjoy a gestalt game. ive just finished playing one. it was great fun.
The_Shaman 08-17-06, 07:47 AM	Well, theoretically a battle sorcerer could be an archmage... but how - and when - are you going to meet the spells known requirement? If you do, I don't think anyone will begrudge you a few levels of medium BAB :D
Ariath Ska'Vhor 08-17-06, 05:19 PM	But as a Archmage you get things that a Battle sorcerer wouldnt. its like saying if im a barbarian that multiclasses as a fighter i should still get d12 HD because im still whacking things. i dont have the right book on hand so i cant look but im guessing the battle sorcerer sacrifices some spell power for the extra BAB and HD, but you wouldnt expect them to get better HD and BAB for taking a archane caster class. if you want to have the best of two classes you might enjoy a gestalt game. ive just finished playing one. it was great fun. well the thing about that is a battle sorcerer loses one spell per day and spell known over the standard sorcerer in order to gain medium BAB and a d8 hitdice. So if you're going into the archmage prestige class, normally only for characters who still only have d4 and lowest BAB then having the same BAB and HD of a standard sorcerer with the same spellcasting capaibilities then it's less powerful than a regular archmage.
StevenO 08-17-06, 11:47 PM	I wouldn't change the Archmage just because a Battle Sorcerer is entering it. A big reason is that over those five levels of Archmage you would only gain a +1 BAB about +10 hp if using the BS's 3/4 BAB and d8 HD. That increase may not be much but given the BS's extremely limited spells known each ability that offers new options (elemental mastery) greatly increases the characters overall power. Yes, it may be hard for a BS to get into the class but not all PrCs work well with the classes that can enter them. For some 10 level PrCs that can be entered much earlier such as the Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge I can see making the change. These classes don't fundamentally change your spellcasting like an Archmage can but exsist mostly to make the old multiclass concepts more acceptable.
runestar 08-18-06, 07:36 AM	As a house rule, that's great. So are you saying that a dragon who takes lvs in archmage could continue improving his stats as if taking additional dragon HD(good bab/saves, d12s)? ;)
The_Shaman 08-18-06, 08:26 AM	Well, he/she/it will be kicking posteriors anyway, I say why not?
DM Zoc 08-18-06, 04:39 PM	So are you saying that a dragon who takes lvs in archmage could continue improving his stats as if taking additional dragon HD(good bab/saves, d12s)? ;) If he qualifies by merit of the sorcery gained through his racial hit dice, yes. But remember that Archmage levels don't go toward improving the breath weapon, advancing an age category, or any of a dozen other things. I mean, it would be a good house rule, yes.
Joseph_Silver 08-18-06, 11:32 PM	I suggest that you stick to being a pure battle sorcerer. It is very difficult for a battle sorcerer to meet the archmage's prerequisites. The battle sorcerer is my favorite base class, by the way.