| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Hyrax02-04-08, 10:28 AM | I'm helping my girlfriend make a character and she wants to be a fighter caster of some sort. She liked the duskblade class, which she's played before, but that game didn't last long and she never got to see the later levels of the character. This game is starting at lvl 12... she's going to be a human and I'm wondering what would be better battle Sorcerer (unearthed Arcana, or, the dm said we could apply the sorcerer variant template to a wizard and be a battle wizard), or be a Warmage from complete Warrior... Looking at them comparatively The battle sorcerer/wizard gets D8 vs D6 HD, and BAB of a cleric vs caster BaB of the Warmage... I'm having a hard time figuring out what the benefits of the Warmage class are... any thoughts? Also, advice on building this character would be greatly appreciated... feats, stats, etc... |
| Jaxgaret02-04-08, 10:48 AM | Battle Sorcerer will be a stronger character overall, if you select a good assortment of spells, and will be a better melee presence, as well. Combine with Stalwart Sorcerer (from Complete Mage or PHBII) for an even better battle-mage. The Warmage is the easier character to create, because there is no spell selection process, and will be a fair bit better at blasting. But much weaker overall. |
| Selgard02-04-08, 10:52 AM | If you are wanting a Melee feel, also look into wizard/argent champion/ eldritch knight. (not necessarily in that order) It does require a level of Fighter (or ranger, or barbarian) to get done, but you end up with near full bab and only lose 1 spell casting level. |
| Orchomenos02-04-08, 10:58 AM | If you are wanting a Melee feel, also look into wizard/argent champion/ eldritch knight. (not necessarily in that order) It does require a level of Fighter (or ranger, or barbarian) to get done, but you end up with near full bab and only lose 1 spell casting level. Or try with two level of paladin instead. You loose 2 more caster levels, but you add your CHA to all your saves. Since it's already your primary attribute, it should not be too bad... |
| CmdrCorsiken02-04-08, 11:02 AM | I have played both Battle Sorcerer and Warmage, and the Socerer definitely has more melee potential than the Warmage. A key point to remember is that the Warmage is essentially an archer that uses ranged spells instead of a bow to deal damage at distance. A large percentage of Warmage spells require a ranged touch attack to hit, thus having no save. If you need/want a 'blaster,' Warmage is the better choice. The Sorcerer will have more spell options available, and thus may still fill, in a limited fashion, the roll of a utilitarian caster. As Jaxgaret has already indicated, spell selection is key in determining the flavor of a Battle Socerer. |
| RobbyPants02-04-08, 11:17 AM | Hyrax, if you want a really simple gish (melee wizard type) with no real headaches, I'd say take battle sorcerer 15/abjurant champion 5. The Abjurant Champion PrC can be found in Complete Mage. I think you qualify for the class at 7th level, so you can take it at 8th. It grants full casting and BAB for it's 5 levels, d10 hit dice, and some other nice abilties. The only real downside is you have to blow a feat on Combat Casting to qualify. Still, by comparision, at level 20, you're much better off: Class Battle Battle Sorc/ Sorcerer Abjurant Champ ________________________________________ ______ Hit Dice 20d8 15d8 + 5d10 BAB +15 +16 Fort +6 +6 Ref +6 +6 Will +12 +13 Caster Level 20 20 Entries in blue are superior There are better ways to make a gish, but I feel this one is very simple, and relatively effective. The only thing to be careful about is spell selection; you get very few of them. Other than that, I fully agree with Jaxgaret. Battle sorcerer is a bit tougher to build by comparison, but you will be much more versitile and much stronger in general. |
| dman1123502-04-08, 11:17 AM | A key point to remember is that the Warmage is essentially an archer that uses ranged spells instead of a bow to deal damage at distance. A large percentage of Warmage spells require a ranged touch attack to hit, thus having no save. If you need/want a 'blaster,' Warmage is the better choice. +1. That's what a warmage is. A battle sorc is a gish, but a warmage is a caster, and not a gish at all. However, I'd suggest that you don't use the battle sorcerer. Spells known and per day are a good thing to have, and with them you can make a better melee than without. You just want to PrC out of sorc as early as possible. A good way to do this is Abjurant Champion (CM) and Enlightened Fist with two levels of monk and Ascetic Mage. Every good gish build comes with Abjurant Champion though. Make sure to take Arcane Strike, and if possible take the sorc alternate class feature from CC: deflection bonus and resistance bonus equal to caster level. |
| Hyrax02-04-08, 11:55 AM | Thanks a lot for the help everyone... I think she'll like the Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champ build the most. She wants to be primarily a melee build with some good magic abilities. She didn't like dusk blade because it limited, with the exception of a ray or two, to casting only in melee. I think basically she wanted a bit more versatility in her casting and that seems to come, as most people have said, from combat sorcerer. Would combat wizard be better than combat sorcerer? loosing 1 spell/day as wizard not quite as bad sorcerer? I think at the moment she's considering fighter 4/combat sorcerer(or wizard) 6/abjurant champion 2 She want's to be a two-weapon fighter... hence the fighter start |
| dman1123502-04-08, 12:30 PM | Sorcerer. You want the spells per day to fuel stuff like the ACF from CC and Arcane Strike. |
| Jaxgaret02-04-08, 03:32 PM | Thanks a lot for the help everyone... I think she'll like the Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champ build the most. She wants to be primarily a melee build with some good magic abilities. She didn't like dusk blade because it limited, with the exception of a ray or two, to casting only in melee. I think basically she wanted a bit more versatility in her casting and that seems to come, as most people have said, from combat sorcerer. Sounds good. It's a nice basic gish build, nothing too fancy. Would combat wizard be better than combat sorcerer? loosing 1 spell/day as wizard not quite as bad sorcerer? Well... the Wizard can specialize, and get that 1 spell/day back. And Wizard is the stronger class of the two. But for someone just starting with D&D, it will be much easier for her to run a Sorcerer, and it is not that much weaker, particularly for a gish build. I think at the moment she's considering fighter 4/combat sorcerer(or wizard) 6/abjurant champion 2 No, I advise her to just stick to BSorc15/AC5. The Fighter levels will seriously hamper the whole build. She want's to be a two-weapon fighter... hence the fighter start Play a Human or Strongheart Halfling for the bonus feat. |
| Jaxgaret02-04-08, 03:35 PM | Here's a question that just came to me: Why doesn't she just play a Cleric? That's an out-of-the-box melee caster powerhouse. Just take the War domain and point her towards the Divine Favor, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Righteous Might etc. spells. |
| Ander Spectacular02-04-08, 03:46 PM | Warmage is much better than battle sorceror. Battle sorceror gives up spells known and per day for BAB and hit die. That is a bad trade. At 12th level, having 2 4th level spells 1 5th and 1 6th makes the sorc's tough situation even worse. Use the regular sorceror if you must, but the warmage is much better than the battle sorc. -AS- |
| Hyrax02-04-08, 05:00 PM | Here's a question that just came to me: Why doesn't she just play a Cleric? That's an out-of-the-box melee caster powerhouse. Just take the War domain and point her towards the Divine Favor, Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Righteous Might etc. spells. Well, she's got the idea in her head about duskblade but wants something a little different... she's already made some choices and gets overwhelmed with new knowledge so I'd rather stick within the realm of her idea... |
| Hyrax02-04-08, 05:02 PM | Sounds good. It's a nice basic gish build, nothing too fancy. Well... the Wizard can specialize, and get that 1 spell/day back. And Wizard is the stronger class of the two. But for someone just starting with D&D, it will be much easier for her to run a Sorcerer, and it is not that much weaker, particularly for a gish build. agreed No, I advise her to just stick to BSorc15/AC5. The Fighter levels will seriously hamper the whole build. can you explain further? I figured with the AC5 she'd make up what she lost in caster lvl with the 4 lvls of fighter... Play a Human or Strongheart Halfling for the bonus feat. she's playing a human for the feat and skills so we got that much right :) |
| solbergb02-04-08, 05:40 PM | I'm helping my girlfriend make a character and she wants to be a fighter caster of some sort. Anything but warmage. There are a number of decent paths to an arcane warrior, duskblade being one, eldritch knight/spellsword another. I'm not entirely sure how good battle sorcerer is..they give up spells known for 3/4 BAB and better hit dice. I think they'd be similar to an eldritch knight build but less uneven in the lower levels. If you're starting in higher levels you may find that something like fighter/sorcerer/PRC is better than battle sorcerer. Warmages have half BAB and their spell mix is not at all suited to melee combat, plus they are extremely sensitive to loss of caster level. The best melee warmage builds I've seen are straight warmage with arcane disciple (war) and oddball things like arcane preparation plus pearls of power to cast the key divine power spell multiple times/day and eventually quicken it. But those builds are still "I'm artillery most of the time, but in a pinch I can be a half decent melee". They're not primarily an arcane melee warrior in the sense of a duskblade. |
| Bergtann02-05-08, 06:45 AM | Duskblade 6 -> Sand Shaper 1 -> Duskblade 8 -> Bard 1 -> Sublime Chord 1 -> Abjurant Champion 1. Although only BaB +9 at this point, you got exellent casting with 5th level spells already, and hitting 6th next level. Sand Shaper vastly expands the spells known list of both Duskblade and Sublime Chord. From here on, finish up Abjurant Champion adding the "+1 spellcasting" levels to Sublime Chord. You get d10 hp, +1 BaB every level and all the Abjur Champ goodies. Just Gish on after that. If played all the way, you get BaB +17 and wide selection of 9th level spells at the end. Must-have feats are Versatile Spellcaster and Practiced Spellcaster beyond the Sand Shaper ones. EDIT: Duskblades get 3rd-level spells at level 9? I thought it was 8. Either need to retard Sublime Chord progression above with 1 level, or find a 3.5 PrC that gives +1 spellcasting level and Bardic Music at first level. |
| RobbyPants02-05-08, 09:42 AM | Thanks a lot for the help everyone... I think she'll like the Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champ build the most. She wants to be primarily a melee build with some good magic abilities. She didn't like dusk blade because it limited, with the exception of a ray or two, to casting only in melee. I think basically she wanted a bit more versatility in her casting and that seems to come, as most people have said, from combat sorcerer. As for spells, she'll want a combination of buffs, debuffs, and general crowd control. I would take very few (if any) direct damage spells, as she can probably do just as well in melee. Would combat wizard be better than combat sorcerer? loosing 1 spell/day as wizard not quite as bad sorcerer? If you're willing to make a more complex build, wizard can often be better. It's a bit more book keeping, but the versitility can be nice. The reason I suggested the build I did above is because it's simple. It's certainly not the strongest build out there. I think at the moment she's considering fighter 4/combat sorcerer(or wizard) 6/abjurant champion 2 There's no way I'd consider more than one level of fighter. In a gish build, caster levels are always superior to non-caster levels. A few other builds you might want to consider if you want something more complex: Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 In this one, you only lose two caster levels, but you get a BAB of +17. Another (if you want sorcerer levels instead) is: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorsist 8 Again, you lose two caster levels and you have a BAB of +16. You cast with Cha and get Cha to saves. Personally, you might just want the simple build. She want's to be a two-weapon fighter... hence the fighter start Personally, I'd say that a single two-hander is better for several reasons: You get more damage, in terms of a bigger weapon, and Power Attack does more damage. You can free up a hand quickly by holding the two hander in one hand. This is important for spellcasting. If she's using two weapons, she has to sheath one (move action) to cast a spell. That could become a real pain real fast. can you explain further? I figured with the AC5 she'd make up what she lost in caster lvl with the 4 lvls of fighter... Well, she'd still lose four caster levels, which puts her two spell levels lower than what she would have been as a straight wizard. Ideally, you should be losing only one or two caster levels. |
| PurinaDragonChow02-05-08, 10:54 AM | Instead of taking 4 levels of fighter, which nets you 3 feats, what about seeing if your DM will allow her to take two flaws, from Unearthed Arcana - then you could only take one level of fighter and still get all 3 feats? |
| Hyrax02-05-08, 11:01 AM | Instead of taking 4 levels of fighter, which nets you 3 feats, what about seeing if your DM will allow her to take two flaws, from Unearthed Arcana - then you could only take one level of fighter and still get all 3 feats? I'll look into that thanks |
| Fabius Maximus02-05-08, 11:10 AM | Whatever you do, don't combine Battle Sorcerer with Stalwart Sorcerer. Your spellcasting progression will be even slower, and while additional hitpoints are nice, it's just not worth it. |
| AtsuiShoto02-05-08, 11:31 AM | If you're starting at 12th level, and your girlfriend liked duskblade but never made it to higher levels, then maybe duskblade would be a good idea this time around? It DOES make a darn good gish, especially at 13th level. After all, what trouble is 1 level of waiting? She doesn't get beter spellcasting like she wanted, but bergtann's suggestion of Sandshaper could certainly help with that. Alternatively, there is the psionic route. Psionics are like vancian spellcasting's cool-headed, sane half-brother. Just grab psychic warrior, don't bother multiclassing, and enjoy the ride! |
| Jaxgaret02-05-08, 12:27 PM | can you explain further? I figured with the AC5 she'd make up what she lost in caster lvl with the 4 lvls of fighter... Yes, it would make up the caster level, but the character would lose spellcasting levels, which is a bad idea for a spellcaster to do. It wouldn't be horrible.. just not good. she's playing a human for the feat and skills so we got that much right :) Good good. Don't let some of the people on these boards talk you or your player into playing some needlessly complicated character, if she doesn't feel like it. A basic BattleSorcerer15/AbjurantChampion5 is going to be plenty strong, and relatively easy to use. Your player can delve deeper into character optimization once she's gotten some more experience under her belt. I know I already recommended that you use Battle Sorcerer over Battle Wizard, but you could use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to garner two bonus Fighter feats, instead of multiclassing into Fighter. |
| danielinthewolvesden02-05-08, 12:45 PM | Why not Duskblade?:confused: |
| Hyrax02-05-08, 12:51 PM | She liked Duskblade, but didn't like being restricted to the duskblade spell list, hence the battle sorcerer. The battle wizard with fighter feats seems like a fairly good idea. But, we worked on the battle sorcerer idea already, and knowing her she may not want to revert to a new idea... might overwhelm her. The Abjurant Champion she liked a lot. Thanks again to everyone for all the help. I'll post the final build as soon as we're done. |
| AtsuiShoto02-05-08, 01:17 PM | I know I already recommended that you use Battle Sorcerer over Battle Wizard, but you could use this Wizard variant to garner two bonus Fighter feats, instead of multiclassing into Fighter.Yes, that's an excellent wizard variant for a gish, because it reduces desire for fighter levels, and it combines well with other wizard variants. Heck, at 10th level that wizard would be picking up 3 fighter feats, not just 2. Combine with the battle sorcerer variant (as allowed in your game) and a specialized wizard. Maybe even use focused specialist from Complete Mage? That's 3 prohibited schools (I'd go Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy) and 1 less spell slot per level for 3 more spell slots per level in the specialized school (I'd go Transmutation or Conjuration). That nets you a wizard with fighter feats every 5 levels plus at 1st level, 6/6/6/6/5/4/3 spells per day from 5 schools (about two-thirds from your favored school) and +9 BAB at 12th level, d8 hitdice, casting in mithral fullplate (you can afford the feat for it), 8 feats of your choice (3 of them fighter feats, and assuming you picked up Battle Caster for the fullplate), and proficiency with a greatsword. Yep, a martial focused specialist battle wizard is looking pretty great. Add Abjurant Champion for some extra complication, but some extra power, too. |
| Rulebook02-05-08, 01:45 PM | i'd reccomend any wizard based gish build, unless you want to get really funky and try a Daggerspell type. ive seen a daggerspell/invisible blade mix do some fun stuff (not as nice as a proper gish mix... but its FUN) hell, really with these kinds of things, its just important to know how to use your spells, and decide early on if you're a buff-and-fight, or a cast till youre empty and fight type too. |
| RobbyPants02-05-08, 02:12 PM | Don't let some of the people on these boards talk you or your player into playing some needlessly complicated character, if she doesn't feel like it. A basic BattleSorcerer15/AbjurantChampion5 is going to be plenty strong, and relatively easy to use. Your player can delve deeper into character optimization once she's gotten some more experience under her belt. Agreed. Even after two more complex builds I posted, I suggested sticking with something more simple. What it lacks in versitility, it makes up for in ease of creation and play. |
| Howland Reed02-05-08, 02:48 PM | Just a quick comment, re: weapon selection. While Two-handing is better for a gish (easier casting, less feat intensive, no need for Dex MAD), you can still make TWF work if you really want...but it'll cost you another feat for Somatic Weaponry (Complete Arcane). Have fun...I love gishes. |
| StevenO02-05-08, 07:46 PM | ... Would combat wizard be better than combat sorcerer? loosing 1 spell/day as wizard not quite as bad sorcerer? I think at the moment she's considering fighter 4/combat sorcerer(or wizard) 6/abjurant champion 2 She want's to be a two-weapon fighter... hence the fighter start I wouldn't allow a "Battle Wizard" using the same modifications that a Battle Sorcerer gets. For the BS the loss of a Spell per day is minor compared with the loss of a spell known. For a Wizard the Spell per day may be a bigger deal but the loss of a spell known is easy enough to make up. Unlike many of the others here I don't thing going with a warrior5or4*/caster1or2/AbC is a bad idea. I see such a build as a warrior who dips into arcane magic (the one or two casting levels) to improve their fighting as the advance through Abjurant Champion. If you want a TWF build I'd try something like Ranger3/Ftr2/Wiz-Sor1/AbC5/Spellsword1 as a 12 level build. I consider the Rgr3/Ftr2 to be interchangable with any of the other fighting classes which may be necessary if XP penalties are a problem. The single level in Wiz/Sor (choice up to you) is just to get the spells you need for Abjurant Champ. The beauty of AbC is that instead of needing high level spells which the other "gish" PrCs want it wants a high BAB so you only need to give up one point of BAB to enter the class. After five levels of AbC you are ready to tackle any of the other "gish" classes and Spellsword is a normal first stop for its +1 BAB, +1 casting, and -10% ASF. This type of build may only have you casting at 7th level but you've only given up a single point of BAB which also sets your caster level. If you want to be a TWF "gish" I'd strongly recommend a double weapon. That should give you the best combination of things as you have a THW when needed, don't need to drop it to cast, and can still use it for TWF. I started Ranger in the previous build for the REF save, skill points, and because you can pick up TWF as your style; additionally you then get to avoid Ftr3 which is only good as a step to Ftr4's Specialization. |
| Jaxgaret02-05-08, 11:52 PM | I wouldn't allow a "Battle Wizard" using the same modifications that a Battle Sorcerer gets. For the BS the loss of a Spell per day is minor compared with the loss of a spell known. For a Wizard the Spell per day may be a bigger deal but the loss of a spell known is easy enough to make up. True, but the Battle Sorcerer is widely seen as needlessly underpowered when compared to a core Sorcerer. Losing both a spell slot and a spell known per level is far too much to lose in compensation for the gains. A Battle Wizard as the OP suggested it would be fine IMO. If the player wouldn't mind dealing with the much larger amount of bookkeeping that running a Wizard entails, the Battle Wizard is definitely the way to go in terms of power comparison. |
| Fabius Maximus02-06-08, 07:30 AM | True, but the Battle Sorcerer is widely seen as needlessly underpowered when compared to a core Sorcerer. Losing both a spell slot and a spell known per level is far too much to lose in compensation for the gains. But you get a better BAB, better HD, and free casting in light armor. So the trade-off is okay. With the right spell selection (self-buffing mainly), it can be a strong character. |
| Endarrion02-06-08, 07:52 AM | This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854&highlight=warmages+blow+goats+for+pocket +change) has a pretty comprehensive discussion as to why warmages aren't so great. And the thread title is nice too. |
| Ander Spectacular02-06-08, 09:38 AM | But you get a better BAB, better HD, and free casting in light armor. So the trade-off is okay. With the right spell selection (self-buffing mainly), it can be a strong character. You don't get enough spells known to be effective, losing 1 spell known per spell level is brutal. Often you will only have 1 spell known of both your highest level spells. This is bad. -AS- |
| Ander Spectacular02-06-08, 09:47 AM | This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854&highlight=warmages+blow+goats+for+pocket +change) has a pretty comprehensive discussion as to why warmages aren't so great. And the thread title is nice too. A full read discloses the major arguments against the warmage rest on the backs of 3-5 specific spells, most of which are higher level. The thread is fairly un-comprehensive as well as failing to prove anything negative about warmages that people don't already know. A careful reading will reveal several clever uses of warmage(mainly for its ability to cast any spell it knows spontaneously, except those from Arcane Disciple). When coupled with the right classes it can almost completely outclass the sorceror in every situation. The build is widely considered cheesy, but considering the real argument rests upon a couple of spells I don't find a singular class that grants extra benefits for a certain class too unappealing. I am not going to really write down the whole thing since I don't have Sandstorm at the moment, but a pleasant blend of Warmage/Sandshaper1/(PrC that grants domains, such as Divine Oracle or Rainbow Servant(I ignore the Cleric spells 10th level ability, it is too controversial, but it gets nice domains) If you want to get real crazy take Rainbow Servant, get Dispel Evil via good domain and PrC into Sacred Exorcist to get turning. Sandshaper provides phenomenal flexibility and is well worth 1 CL loss. That is a good thread, but it got sort of derailed and died. -AS- |
| solbergb02-06-08, 02:03 PM | When coupled with the right classes it can almost completely outclass the sorceror in every situation. I'd say that's too strong. It can outclass a sorcerer at arcane offense yes. But it won't generally outclass a sorcerer in other areas of arcane casting, even if you add quite a few spells to the list. Sandshaper is a good thing to add at level 19, but before that you'll hurt yourself with the lost caster level and regular advancement to higher tier spell slots required for the warmage to really keep up in the offense department where they are supposed to shine. (of course I play that rainbow servant is a 6/10 class, as the text was clearly a copy/paste mistake from another PRC, backed up by the foreign language editions calling it a 6/10 class in the text. But WOTC's refusal to eratta anything meaningful leads to some weird post level 16 warmage builds with 10 levels of rainbow servant and access to most of the cleric spell list. Divine oracle adds one domain, which can help quite a bit, as can even the more limited arcane disciple. But you're plugging holes in the list, not building synergies. It'll make the warmage better but can't compete with a real arcane caster oriented at anything other than blasting in their areas of expertise) Warmages aren't great for the role the original poster suggested (a Gish, or Duskblade-like character with a better spell list). They have a terrible spell mix for gish, and no class abilities that really help. You can make them an adequate melee for brief periods by getting the war domain on their list, but it's no substitute for classes/prc's designed to make an arcane melee. |
| StevenO02-06-08, 02:10 PM | True, but the Battle Sorcerer is widely seen as needlessly underpowered when compared to a core Sorcerer. Losing both a spell slot and a spell known per level is far too much to lose in compensation for the gains. A Battle Wizard as the OP suggested it would be fine IMO. If the player wouldn't mind dealing with the much larger amount of bookkeeping that running a Wizard entails, the Battle Wizard is definitely the way to go in terms of power comparison. The Battle Sorcerer is underpowerd compared to a Sorcerer mostly because of how they often get compared: straight up spellcasting. For a large number of builds that are NOT going for full casting power the BS may be the better class. With the 3/4 BAB the BS gets into a number of PrCs much sooner than another "full" caster would get in but with a much larger selection of spells to use. Abjurant Champion, Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple and a few other PrCs can benefit significantly by using BS over straight Sorcerer. With the Abjurant Champion entering it from BS at 8th level is almost a no-brainer (costs one feat) and enables a build with 19 casting levels and a +18 BAB. If one wants to get the most from Arcane Archer then Battle Sorcerer should definitely be considered; BS gives you both the BAB to get in and the Spells to eventually use with Imbue Arrow. The DragonD likes BS because four levels gives you a 2nd level spell slot to increase with level while only costing your BAB slightly; admittedly for a DragonD the Duskblade is usually the better choice. After reviewing the Wizard's spells per day chart I guess it would be possible to do a "Battle Wizard" similiarly to a Battle Sorcerer. Instead of one spell know of each level lost the BW would only gain one new spell each level instead of the normal two. The killer is that even if you gain a new spell level on schedual (can't drop spells/day below 1) you'll take forever (3 levels) before you can cast multiple spells of a given level. If you look at things that way is a BS having only one max level spell to chose when casting it two or three times per day worse than a BW who may be able to choose from a couple different max level spells but only get to cast one each day? |
| Ander Spectacular02-06-08, 02:59 PM | I'd say that's too strong. It can outclass a sorcerer at arcane offense yes. But it won't generally outclass a sorcerer in other areas of arcane casting, even if you add quite a few spells to the list. Sandshaper is a good thing to add at level 19, but before that you'll hurt yourself with the lost caster level and regular advancement to higher tier spell slots required for the warmage to really keep up in the offense department where they are supposed to shine. Most arcane casters are not trying to be specialized blasters. The warmage never really has to do anything to be an effective(not super-optimized) damage dealer and since this is never a concern for them, they can branch out. The sorceror's limited spells known make every choice important and still leaves them with very few higher level spells known. By taking Sandshaper, the warmage adds summoning spells, buff spells, dispel magic, save or die, etc, for just 1 CL loss(I recommend taking Sandshaper at 7th level, when most of the spells are still useful, the CL loss here has minimal impact for a caster who is not focused on damage) and can do everything an equal level sorceror can do(except maybe cast glitterdust). The next level the sorceror might feel like the 1 CL advantage is very helpful, but then remembers that he only gets 1 spell known, not a hallmark of versatility. The spells provided by Sandshaper are not all great spells, but neither are all of the spells in a wizard's spellbook. The wizard has a problem with casting as well. Limitless knowledge of spells, but, by and large, must prepare them all before hand. Its honestly not a real limitation, as there are certain spells that are very highly thought of and will always be memorized, but the wizard is inflexible in unexpected situations. Now, the warmage/sandshaper is a whole spell level behind the wizard at this point, and the wizard has some sweet 4th level spells already. The warmage can still do damage and has the additional flexibility of on demand buffing/dispelling. I am not saying the warmage is better than a wizard, but rather can have more situational options than a wizard and that the warmage is much more flexible than it is given credit for. (of course I play that rainbow servant is a 6/10 class, as the text was clearly a copy/paste mistake from another PRC, backed up by the foreign language editions calling it a 6/10 class in the text. But WOTC's refusal to eratta anything meaningful leads to some weird post level 16 warmage builds with 10 levels of rainbow servant and access to most of the cleric spell list. Divine oracle adds one domain, which can help quite a bit, as can even the more limited arcane disciple. But you're plugging holes in the list, not building synergies. It'll make the warmage better but can't compete with a real arcane caster oriented at anything other than blasting in their areas of expertise) Warmages aren't great for the role the original poster suggested (a Gish, or Duskblade-like character with a better spell list). They have a terrible spell mix for gish, and no class abilities that really help. You can make them an adequate melee for brief periods by getting the war domain on their list, but it's no substitute for classes/prc's designed to make an arcane melee. RS is a pretty bizarre class. If given full spellcasting, it is worth it for domain access. On one hand I buy the cleric spell bit, but on another realize that it is an unintended consequence. As for synergies, I think that expanding a spell list that is traditionally considered weak and specialized into a broad based caster exploits the spellcasting mechanic of the warmage. The same tricks would work for the Beguiler as well. If most casters are not designed around DD all the time then a non-tweaked warmage will carry as much punch as any other caster not optimized for DD. I missed the part about melee when I first posted. Warmage is not super great at melee, but can do enough well in close quarters. -AS- |
| Hyrax02-06-08, 04:01 PM | I've heard spellsword mentioned in a few posts... which book is that in? |
| solbergb02-06-08, 04:42 PM | spellsword is in complete warrior. It's a half spellcasting advancement class that lowers ACP, gives a bonus fighter or metamagic feat and has some duskblade-like channeling abilities, although more limited. It's often used as a "dip" for 1 level, because the first level gives spellcasting, but the L2 feat is also pretty nice, so 3 levels is also pretty common. More than that is not so common as the class stops giving back much compared to the loss of caster levels. |
| Bergtann02-06-08, 05:24 PM | (of course I play that rainbow servant is a 6/10 class, as the text was clearly a copy/paste mistake from another PRC, backed up by the foreign language editions calling it a 6/10 class in the text. But WOTC's refusal to eratta anything meaningful leads to some weird post level 16 warmage builds with 10 levels of rainbow servant and access to most of the cleric spell list. Divine oracle adds one domain, which can help quite a bit, as can even the more limited arcane disciple. But you're plugging holes in the list, not building synergies. It'll make the warmage better but can't compete with a real arcane caster oriented at anything other than blasting in their areas of expertise) Its worse than that, I am afraid. I am told the spanish edition had the text corrected to 6/10 spellcasting, while the portugese one published just after had the text and table changed to 10/10. Disclaimer: I don't speak either, and so go with what I've been told. Personally I find either 6/10, get the whole Cleric list added, or 10/10 you may pick from the list when you are allowed to select a new spell known works. But not both. |
| Jaxgaret02-06-08, 05:53 PM | Personally I find either 6/10, get the whole Cleric list added, or 10/10 you may pick from the list when you are allowed to select a new spell known works. But not both. +1 @ Ander Spectacular: The thing about those builds is that a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer can do the same thing, because they have the same "spells known = spells I can cast" mechanic, and they are much stronger mechanical choices to do so with. But I do like the Warmage. I am playing one currently (Warmage/Exalted Arcanist/Fatespinner/Holy Scourge/Loremaster). We're into Epic now, started at low levels. |
| Ander Spectacular02-06-08, 07:30 PM | @ Ander Spectacular: The thing about those builds is that a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer can do the same thing, because they have the same "spells known = spells I can cast" mechanic, and they are much stronger mechanical choices to do so with. But I do like the Warmage. I am playing one currently (Warmage/Exalted Arcanist/Fatespinner/Holy Scourge/Loremaster). We're into Epic now, started at low levels. I don't know much about DNs, as i generally play in games where undead stuff is not looked upon highly. The Beguiler would benefit as the warmage would, though their role is much different than the warmage's(skill-monkey/spellcaster vs archer/spellcaster). I don't find the fact that the other classes can do the same trick a negative in this case. -AS- |
| Fabius Maximus02-07-08, 05:54 AM | You don't get enough spells known to be effective, losing 1 spell known per spell level is brutal. Often you will only have 1 spell known of both your highest level spells. This is bad. -AS- For a full caster, yes. The Battle Sorcerer is a gish. |
| kristoss02-07-08, 09:42 AM | Lets have a look at what feats you'd take assuming Fighter4/BarrleSorc11/AC5 I'd consider these necessary for the build: Quick Draw or Somatic Weaponry Two weapon fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting Greater Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Finesse (to mitigate high TWF requirements.) Arcane Strike Rapid Metamagic (necessary for quicken spell, make sure you have spellcraft 12) Quicken Spell (necessary for any gish IMHO) Smite spell (PHB2) (this is cool, grants duskblades arcane channeling) Your build also has a hefty ability reliance Dex 19 for Greater Two Weapon Fighting Con for survival Cha 18 to cast your highest level spells at 20th With 25 point buy you can just get to the ability requirements (without magic tomes and manuals that is). Str: 8 Dex: 16 (put first 3 ability score increases here) Con 13 Int & wis:8 (you have a good will save anyway, and you only need concentration and spellcraft for skills) Cha: 16 (put last 2 ability score increases here) Improved toughness feat will mitigate low con somewhat, but unless you have uber high ability scores maybe just go cleric. Of course if you have high enough ability scores go ahead. |
| RobbyPants02-07-08, 09:51 AM | It's often used as a "dip" for 1 level, because the first level gives spellcasting, but the L2 feat is also pretty nice, so 3 levels is also pretty common. More than that is not so common as the class stops giving back much compared to the loss of caster levels. This is an even nicer dip if you're playing a normal wizard or sorcerer as opposed to a battle sorcerer. The "Ignore 10% Arcane Spell Failure" is wonderful in that you can cast in a mithril shirt with no penalty. Since you already have the ability to cast in light armor with battle sorcerer, the dip becomes less appealing. Still, it does offer +1 BAB and a caster level, along with +2 Fort and Will (the biggest reason left for the dip). |
| StevenO02-07-08, 12:02 PM | Lets have a look at what feats you'd take assuming Fighter4/BarrleSorc11/AC5 . That is certainly a less than optimum build. When going combat heavy you should be taking AbC at 7th level at the latest following Ftr4/BS2 looking at this build. Depending on the target build I would seriously consider not using all fighter levels for that either as Ftr2/BS4 get you into AbC just as quickly with better casting and swapping out Ftr levels for Ranger or Barbarian can have added benefits as well. If going for the TWF mentioned in the quoted post a few changes to Ftr4 can help. Going Swashbuckler/Ranger2/Fighter would have you making up the fighter feats lost but give you more skill points to work with and some added benefits. |
| kristoss02-07-08, 10:11 PM | That is certainly a less than optimum build. When going combat heavy you should be taking AbC at 7th level at the latest following Ftr4/BS2 looking at this build. Depending on the target build I would seriously consider not using all fighter levels for that either as Ftr2/BS4 get you into AbC just as quickly with better casting and swapping out Ftr levels for Ranger or Barbarian can have added benefits as well. If going for the TWF mentioned in the quoted post a few changes to Ftr4 can help. Going Swashbuckler/Ranger2/Fighter would have you making up the fighter feats lost but give you more skill points to work with and some added benefits. As for the build well the poster has already made up their minds about which classes their choosing and I didn't list the class levels or feats in the order I intended them to take them. Yes they could get rid of the fighter dead level with a two level dip into spell sword or a single dip into swash buckler but the posters desire is to keep the build simple. If You want to be pedantic CombSrc1/Ftr1/CombSrc3/SpellSwrd2/AC4/Ftr1/AC1/ComSrc8 Feats 1: Arcane Strike, Weapon finesse 2: TWF (fighter) 3: Somatic Weaponry 6: Combat Casting (Abjurant Champ requirement) 7: Improved Two weapon (SpellSword) 9: rapid metamagic 12: Greater TWF (Fighter), Practiced spellcasting 15: Quicken Spell 18: Smite spell This gives: Base attack 17; Max spell level 8; Caster level 20 |
| kristoss02-07-08, 10:16 PM | How do i Delete a double post? |
| Hyrax02-18-08, 10:55 AM | Thanks to everyone that helped and gave advice. I wanted to post the final build She decided to go with Battle Wizard 7/Abjurant Champion 5 ...and from there she'll be headed into the Eldrich Knight PrC At lvl 12 she's starting with Bab +10/+5 and spells/day are 0-all, 1-8, 2-4, 3-4, 4-4, 5-2, 6-1 She also swapped out metamagic feats for fighter feats, swapping summon familiar for a first lvl feat as well Feats= two-weapon fighting, somatic weaponry, leadership, mounted combat, (she got a pegasus to ride on), combat casting (needed for PrC), and 2 other feats that I forget anyways, the build looks really good, I'm impressed by it. Thanks again for the help everyone Cya in other posts -Hyrax |
| Jaxgaret02-18-08, 03:12 PM | Glad to help! :) |