Battle Sorceror overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorceror overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SoupFork
05-12-05, 03:47 AM I was taking a look yesterday at the Battle Sorceror variant in Unearthed Arcana, and although I like the idea, I can't shake the feeling it's too overpowered.

Basically, it does the following (don't have UA right now, so I might miss a thing or two).
*Change HD to d8
*No Arcane spell failure in light armor
*Base Attack of a Cleric
*Proficient with one light or one-handed martial weapon
*Lose one spell slot of each level you can cast to a minimum of one
*Lose one spell known of each level to a minimum of one.

Basically, it enhances fighting capability a lot by sacrificing one spell slot (not too much impact on a sorceror, who has plentyof spell slots) and one spell known (more impact on a sorceror).

I was thinking of adding one of these as a henchman, therefor this question (no fun in overpowered henchmen right? ;) )

Cheers,

SoupFork
PhaedrusXY
05-12-05, 04:36 AM *Lose one spell known of each level to a minimum of one.This is a HUGE disadvantage. I feel the class is actually underpowered, and have powered it up a bit in my game.
sooperspook
05-12-05, 04:50 AM also no familliar
SoupFork
05-12-05, 05:20 AM also no familliar

are you sure? I can't remember that, I'll have to check it later today...
jyshiow
05-12-05, 06:41 AM I think the battle sorc is far from being over powered? The one known spell less is a real killer. Sorcs already have very spells and this restriction only makes it worse. Not really worth the benefits gained I think. But then it is better than the Warmage though. :rolleyes:
ninjarabbit
05-12-05, 07:17 AM It's actually worse than the sorcerer methinks. The BS is neither a good warrior (basically a rouge without SA combatwise) nor is it a good spellcaster (in comparison to the sorcerer)
Lord Schpungus
05-12-05, 09:16 AM I like the battle sorcerer, but in no way is it overpowered. You lose spells known. That's a big thing. You do not lose the familiar, though why you want an xp-sack hanging out, waiting to get killed, is beyond me.

You can make an adequate gish with BSorc. Take true strike and arcane strike and power attack, add in some lesser orbs and go utility spells for the rest. Mix in Havoc Mage from Mini's handbook (1 standard-action spell and 1 attack as a full-round), and draconic breath/claw from CA and you're a better dragon disciple than you could ever get by taking Dragon Disciple.
Thelon Fairblade
05-12-05, 09:29 AM I think the BattleSorcerer is a *well-balanced* class, personally. The hit to Spells Known is massive -- you only know a single 1st level spell until *3rd* level, and only a single 2nd level spell until 7th level!

Arcane Strike really becomes a requirement, to *spend* those daily spell slots, IMO, but I know at least one of my players disagrees with me on that score.

IMC, we powered *up* the BSorc just a smidge, by allowing him to choose either Eschew Materials or Magical Aptitude at 2nd level. (This was a campaign decision, because the same flavor-choice was offered to the Sorcerer. The other players even thought the BSorc should be offered fighter bonus feats every 4 or 5 levels!)

One thing I think is *great* about the BSorc is that you really have to *want* to leave the class to multi- or PrC (unlike the Sorcerer). Most caster-PrCs are going to *downgrade* your HP to d6 or d4, and many gish-PrCs are only going to initially grant Light Armor Casting, something you already have. Multi-ing into any other class is an issue because of your dreadfully slow "Spells Known" progress... (One bright point: just like the sorcerer, you may "know" very few spells, but you can use spell-completion items from the entire Wizard/Sorc spell list!)

Edit: PS: I personally think the Warmage class is WotC making the BattleSorc a "Core" class, instead of variant from UA...
Votan
05-12-05, 11:42 AM I think the BattleSorcerer is a *well-balanced* class, personally. The hit to Spells Known is massive -- you only know a single 1st level spell until *3rd* level, and only a single 2nd level spell until 7th level!

I agree completely. If you compare the class to it's competitors you get a very narrowly focused sorcerer but one who is able to actually face melee and survive. I find it an interesting option for a low level game where the general weakness of the sorcerer is pretty vile. These are the levels where the chain shirt is better than mage armor spells (which don't last long enough to be fire and forget until 4th level or so).

The resistance to prestige classing is also a fascinating change. They manage to do it without adding abilities to the class. Rarely has that been done so well before.

It also doesn't lose pinnacle spells or caster levels which makes it stay competitve with other classes for spellcasting effectiveness while still paying a price for melee.

A Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldrtich Knight 10 has 67.5 hit points, base saves of F/R/W +12/+6/+9, BAB +15, 18th level casting and spell selection.

A Battlesorcerer 20 has 93.5 base hit points, base saves of F/R/W +6/+6/+12, BAB +15 and battlesorcerer casting (which is actually slightly worse).

So the pinnacle cases are close. What the eldritch knight has against it is that it loses the caster levels early. This makes the character weak at lower levels and it has to catch up. By the end it is slightly better (especially if a feat is used for practiced caster ; the EK already has 2 bonus feats so paying on back is a non-issue). You can also turn some of these final sorcerer levels (there are 3 that I can easily see being reallocated) into archamge (for more spell power) or sacred exorcist (which grants +16 BAB and an extra 6 hit points).

However, other prestige class require decisions about feats and skills that are not always obvious.
DM Zoc
05-12-05, 11:59 AM One thing that nobody has mentioned yet: the boost to hit points really helps with the survivability of the familiar.
John Q. Mayhem
05-12-05, 12:42 PM A nice thing about the battle sorcerer is that they qualify easily for the more combat-oriented Improved Familiars in CW, the ones that require a certain BAB.

I've been experimenting with battle sorcerer NPCs, and with PrC builds, it's almost universally better to take regular sorcerer-you lose a few HP, one or two points of BAB, and in exchange you get a lot more spells known and spells/day. The battle sorcerer's benefits only kick in if you take it all the way.

It'd probably make a good dragon disciple, too.
Khazra Reborn
05-12-05, 05:04 PM How about arcane preparation feat (so you prepare your spells) & mage of the arcane order7...access to all spells & still 4 casts a day!
I also like white dragon spawn (la+1, buy off) battle sorcerer10/EK9/vassel of bahumat1
You have caster 19, 17BaB, cast in platinum armour (+8ac,+4dex!!!!)
Xeviat-DM
05-12-05, 05:17 PM I think that the Battle Sorcerer is a closer representation of what the Sorcerer should have always been. If I were to use it in a standard D&D setting, I would boost its spells known to normal, since I think the standard sorcerer is a bit weak after seeing one played next to a wizard. But as it stands, the loss of a spell known really hurts their versatility; not so much their strength though in my opinion. They make better use of melee spells and get a lot of milage out of buffer spells.

Though after seeing the XPH psion in action, I'd much rather see a sorcerer structured like the Wilder with augmentable spells. Bwahahahaha.
Fuzzy_Logic
05-12-05, 10:26 PM the battle sorcerer is, i think good for differentiating sorc from wizard. it is by no means overpowered.

allow me to compare it to three other builds:

battle sorc vs. wizard or normal sorc: without the proper feats and casses, battle sorc itself will not make you a real fighter. battle sorcs are still better off chucking a fireball than swinging a sword. real casters are better at it than bsorcs.

battle sorc versus cleric: same stats, but the cleric gets more spells per day, isn't saddled with ruinously small spells knwon lists, and gets domain powers.

battle sroc vs sorc or wizard with PrC: spellcasting PrCs are worse for battle sorcerers because they lose thier battle sorc advantages while retaining their penalties. similarly, spellsword, EK, etc. are better for real sorcs, who get better spell progression.

IMC, i've adapted some spellcasting PrCs for battle sorcerers, giving them better stats (BAB, HD< et.c) or spell progression (acolyte of the skin with more levels of progression). if this were done universally, that *might* break the battle sorc, but until then i think the difficulty in abusing PrCs makes them not much of a threat to game balance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SoupFork 05-12-05, 03:47 AM	I was taking a look yesterday at the Battle Sorceror variant in Unearthed Arcana, and although I like the idea, I can't shake the feeling it's too overpowered. Basically, it does the following (don't have UA right now, so I might miss a thing or two). Change HD to d8 No Arcane spell failure in light armor Base Attack of a Cleric Proficient with one light or one-handed martial weapon Lose one spell slot of each level you can cast to a minimum of one Lose one spell known of each level to a minimum of one. Basically, it enhances fighting capability a lot by sacrificing one spell slot (not too much impact on a sorceror, who has plentyof spell slots) and one spell known (more impact on a sorceror). I was thinking of adding one of these as a henchman, therefor this question (no fun in overpowered henchmen right? ;) ) Cheers, SoupFork
PhaedrusXY 05-12-05, 04:36 AM	*Lose one spell known of each level to a minimum of one.This is a HUGE disadvantage. I feel the class is actually underpowered, and have powered it up a bit in my game.
sooperspook 05-12-05, 04:50 AM	also no familliar
SoupFork 05-12-05, 05:20 AM	also no familliar are you sure? I can't remember that, I'll have to check it later today...
jyshiow 05-12-05, 06:41 AM	I think the battle sorc is far from being over powered? The one known spell less is a real killer. Sorcs already have very spells and this restriction only makes it worse. Not really worth the benefits gained I think. But then it is better than the Warmage though. :rolleyes:
ninjarabbit 05-12-05, 07:17 AM	It's actually worse than the sorcerer methinks. The BS is neither a good warrior (basically a rouge without SA combatwise) nor is it a good spellcaster (in comparison to the sorcerer)
Lord Schpungus 05-12-05, 09:16 AM	I like the battle sorcerer, but in no way is it overpowered. You lose spells known. That's a big thing. You do not lose the familiar, though why you want an xp-sack hanging out, waiting to get killed, is beyond me. You can make an adequate gish with BSorc. Take true strike and arcane strike and power attack, add in some lesser orbs and go utility spells for the rest. Mix in Havoc Mage from Mini's handbook (1 standard-action spell and 1 attack as a full-round), and draconic breath/claw from CA and you're a better dragon disciple than you could ever get by taking Dragon Disciple.
Thelon Fairblade 05-12-05, 09:29 AM	I think the BattleSorcerer is a well-balanced class, personally. The hit to Spells Known is massive -- you only know a single 1st level spell until 3rd level, and only a single 2nd level spell until 7th level! Arcane Strike really becomes a requirement, to spend those daily spell slots, IMO, but I know at least one of my players disagrees with me on that score. IMC, we powered up the BSorc just a smidge, by allowing him to choose either Eschew Materials or Magical Aptitude at 2nd level. (This was a campaign decision, because the same flavor-choice was offered to the Sorcerer. The other players even thought the BSorc should be offered fighter bonus feats every 4 or 5 levels!) One thing I think is great about the BSorc is that you really have to want to leave the class to multi- or PrC (unlike the Sorcerer). Most caster-PrCs are going to downgrade your HP to d6 or d4, and many gish-PrCs are only going to initially grant Light Armor Casting, something you already have. Multi-ing into any other class is an issue because of your dreadfully slow "Spells Known" progress... (One bright point: just like the sorcerer, you may "know" very few spells, but you can use spell-completion items from the entire Wizard/Sorc spell list!) Edit: PS: I personally think the Warmage class is WotC making the BattleSorc a "Core" class, instead of variant from UA...
Votan 05-12-05, 11:42 AM	I think the BattleSorcerer is a well-balanced class, personally. The hit to Spells Known is massive -- you only know a single 1st level spell until 3rd level, and only a single 2nd level spell until 7th level! I agree completely. If you compare the class to it's competitors you get a very narrowly focused sorcerer but one who is able to actually face melee and survive. I find it an interesting option for a low level game where the general weakness of the sorcerer is pretty vile. These are the levels where the chain shirt is better than mage armor spells (which don't last long enough to be fire and forget until 4th level or so). The resistance to prestige classing is also a fascinating change. They manage to do it without adding abilities to the class. Rarely has that been done so well before. It also doesn't lose pinnacle spells or caster levels which makes it stay competitve with other classes for spellcasting effectiveness while still paying a price for melee. A Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldrtich Knight 10 has 67.5 hit points, base saves of F/R/W +12/+6/+9, BAB +15, 18th level casting and spell selection. A Battlesorcerer 20 has 93.5 base hit points, base saves of F/R/W +6/+6/+12, BAB +15 and battlesorcerer casting (which is actually slightly worse). So the pinnacle cases are close. What the eldritch knight has against it is that it loses the caster levels early. This makes the character weak at lower levels and it has to catch up. By the end it is slightly better (especially if a feat is used for practiced caster ; the EK already has 2 bonus feats so paying on back is a non-issue). You can also turn some of these final sorcerer levels (there are 3 that I can easily see being reallocated) into archamge (for more spell power) or sacred exorcist (which grants +16 BAB and an extra 6 hit points). However, other prestige class require decisions about feats and skills that are not always obvious.
DM Zoc 05-12-05, 11:59 AM	One thing that nobody has mentioned yet: the boost to hit points really helps with the survivability of the familiar.
John Q. Mayhem 05-12-05, 12:42 PM	A nice thing about the battle sorcerer is that they qualify easily for the more combat-oriented Improved Familiars in CW, the ones that require a certain BAB. I've been experimenting with battle sorcerer NPCs, and with PrC builds, it's almost universally better to take regular sorcerer-you lose a few HP, one or two points of BAB, and in exchange you get a lot more spells known and spells/day. The battle sorcerer's benefits only kick in if you take it all the way. It'd probably make a good dragon disciple, too.
Khazra Reborn 05-12-05, 05:04 PM	How about arcane preparation feat (so you prepare your spells) & mage of the arcane order7...access to all spells & still 4 casts a day! I also like white dragon spawn (la+1, buy off) battle sorcerer10/EK9/vassel of bahumat1 You have caster 19, 17BaB, cast in platinum armour (+8ac,+4dex!!!!)
Xeviat-DM 05-12-05, 05:17 PM	I think that the Battle Sorcerer is a closer representation of what the Sorcerer should have always been. If I were to use it in a standard D&D setting, I would boost its spells known to normal, since I think the standard sorcerer is a bit weak after seeing one played next to a wizard. But as it stands, the loss of a spell known really hurts their versatility; not so much their strength though in my opinion. They make better use of melee spells and get a lot of milage out of buffer spells. Though after seeing the XPH psion in action, I'd much rather see a sorcerer structured like the Wilder with augmentable spells. Bwahahahaha.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-12-05, 10:26 PM	the battle sorcerer is, i think good for differentiating sorc from wizard. it is by no means overpowered. allow me to compare it to three other builds: battle sorc vs. wizard or normal sorc: without the proper feats and casses, battle sorc itself will not make you a real fighter. battle sorcs are still better off chucking a fireball than swinging a sword. real casters are better at it than bsorcs. battle sorc versus cleric: same stats, but the cleric gets more spells per day, isn't saddled with ruinously small spells knwon lists, and gets domain powers. battle sroc vs sorc or wizard with PrC: spellcasting PrCs are worse for battle sorcerers because they lose thier battle sorc advantages while retaining their penalties. similarly, spellsword, EK, etc. are better for real sorcs, who get better spell progression. IMC, i've adapted some spellcasting PrCs for battle sorcerers, giving them better stats (BAB, HD< et.c) or spell progression (acolyte of the skin with more levels of progression). if this were done universally, that might break the battle sorc, but until then i think the difficulty in abusing PrCs makes them not much of a threat to game balance.