Battle Sorceror - Balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Battle Sorceror - Balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaxgaret
10-05-05, 12:46 AM Wanted to know what you all thought of the Battle Sorceror variant class, found on d20srd.org. The link is Battle Sorceror Variant Character Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) .

Or just look at the info here:

Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die
d8.

Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.

Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

________________________________________ _________________________

Does this seem balanced to the Sorceror class? More or less powerful? Thanks in advance....
Phantom Lord
10-05-05, 01:05 AM Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
That's great. I like the idea, but bear in mind that, as Wizards and Sorcerers are the (debatably) most powerful classes at lvl 20 anyway, you will need to take something away in exchange.

Hit Die
d8.

Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
This is pretty heavy stuff. What are the advantages of a fighter over mages? HP and BAB. If you are going to effectively double HP and 1.5x the BAB, the magic part needs to take a big hit. Try...maximum level 6 spells, for starters.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
Nothing too big here. Can't say I agree with it flavor-wise, but it works balance-wise.
Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Nice.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Very nice. This is a class feature I originally intended on adding to the sorcerer, but I instead went with the bloodline path instead.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
Ahh, finally...the drawbacks. I don't think it's enough, to tell you the truth. I mentioned earlier that I would suggest 6th-level spells as a max, and I stand by it. Maybe 7th level. But a fighter/mage of this magnitude doesn't need the ultra-powerful spells, because he's got decent BAB and HP. Try 7th level spells (distributed farther apart...maybe every 3rd level he gets an increase, instead of every-other one; 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th,) 1 less spell known per level, 1 less spell per day, and an increased FORT save. Also, 3/4 caster level (that's: caster level = battle sorcerer level * 3/4) instead of full caster level. That should do the trick.
NightScreamer20
10-05-05, 01:12 AM LOL I had to look twice since it's the same Variant presented in Unearthed Arcana, ya know a book released by Wizards of the Coast full of Variants for your game. I really hope that site you have has clearance to place that kind of stuff on the web.

In my opinion the class' HD should be d6 not d8, but other than that it's on par with the Cleric.
Wyrd Bearer
10-05-05, 01:14 AM I don't know there, Phantom Lord. One less spell per day AND known total than a normal sorcerer? I can tell you that those drawbacks alone make me not want to ever play this class.
Phantom Lord
10-05-05, 01:25 AM Well, to me having most of the combat prowess of a rogue (everything but the sneak attack) and having nearly the full arcane ability of a sorc seems pretty spiffy. This is a class I would play (merely for the power, as the flavor doesn't suit me too well at the moment) in a heartbeat.
Perun
10-05-05, 02:15 AM A similar class is the warmage (I think that's what it's called) from Complete Arcane (and Miniatures Handbook, if I'm not wrong - I don't have that book).

It's somewhat similar to battle sorcerer, but you get a slightly lower HD (d6) in exchange for more spells known (he automatically knows all spells of any spell level he can use, but uses a warmage spell list, which has offensive spells exclusively; that is, magic missile, fireball, and lightning bolt, but no fly, teleport or (limited) wish, for example).

He also gets bonus sudden metamagic feats and some other nice things.

So, if you want to play a "blaster" you might want to check the warmage.

Regards.
allenchan
10-05-05, 02:35 AM its balanced. maybe not compared directly to the sorcerer, but to most other casters it is. Yea, basicly battle sorc. is a warmage that can have a few other spells (like polymorph) instead of ODDLES of blasty spells.
Torack
10-05-05, 02:37 AM LOL I had to look twice since it's the same Variant presented in Unearthed Arcana, ya know a book released by Wizards of the Coast full of Variants for your game. I really hope that site you have has clearance to place that kind of stuff on the web.

In my opinion the class' HD should be d6 not d8, but other than that it's on par with the Cleric.

Unearthed Arcana is OGL. Like the PHB, DMG, MM1, XPH and ELH.
Maraxus
10-05-05, 05:07 AM (...)
Ahh, finally...the drawbacks. I don't think it's enough, to tell you the truth. I mentioned earlier that I would suggest 6th-level spells as a max, and I stand by it. Maybe 7th level. But a fighter/mage of this magnitude doesn't need the ultra-powerful spells, because he's got decent BAB and HP. Try 7th level spells (distributed farther apart...maybe every 3rd level he gets an increase, instead of every-other one; 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th,) 1 less spell known per level, 1 less spell per day, and an increased FORT save. Also, 3/4 caster level (that's: caster level = battle sorcerer level * 3/4) instead of full caster level. That should do the trick.
So you basicly say, to balance a battle sorcerer, you should make him ... a bard without bardic knowledge and bardic music?

Compare the battle sorcerer to the cleric, because they take a similar role (except that the cleric is also the healer). Or better
Cleric has turn undead
Battle sorc has a familiar
Cleric has 2 domain poweres
Cleric has the same number of spells in the end (but some have to / can be be choosen from the domain list)
Battle sorc can cast in light armor,
Cleric can cast in any armor
Cleric has access to all cleric spells
Battle sorc has access to very few arcane spells.

Usually arcane spells are better, but what are the spells that are better? Fireball or Dominate Person are two. And because direct damage loves metamagic, you should try to always have spell slots as high as possible. And because "save or"-spells need high saves you need to put everything into your casting attribute at the expense of at least one physial attribute.
The other spells are battlefield control: Web, Black Tentacles, Wall of force... Again, these spells do rarely need an attack role and rarely need to get close to the enemy, too.
Among buff spells and attack roll-spells, clerics and sorcerers are en par. So you basicly are slightly worse then the cleric in buffed fighting or a good deal worse the the sorcerer as an arcane caster. Or you share your spells between this two options and are even one step more worse in these two fields.

This can still be good but it is definitly not overpowered.
DarknessEternal
10-05-05, 09:58 AM Absolutely. One fewer spell known at every level makes a Battle Sorcerer barely a caster at all. This class is the arcane equivalent of Psychic Warrior (but without all the bonus feats).
Jaxgaret
10-05-05, 10:07 AM thanks fellas. i thought it seemed pretty balanced to the bard and cleric. i'm thinking about dropping the hit die to d6 anyway, just so i don't have any "munchkinny" arguments from my DM and fellow players. i'm planning on playing a favored soul/battle sorceror. not the most powerful combo, of course - but i usually powergame to the hilt, this should be a nice change. else i'll just go with rogue/wizard =)
FruitOfTheShroom
10-05-05, 10:16 AM When you get down to it, the Battle Sorc is still arguably inferior to wizards, druids, and clerics.

Is it stronger than a sorc? Obviously. But that isn't afair comparison, because the Sorcerer class is quite weak. Comparing it to the 3 above, it's arguably not even on par with them.

Let's compare:
Druids: pros - great buffs, alright healing, great nuking, casting while shifted, good melee. cons - generally low AC and HP

Clerics: pros - great buffs, great healing, good nuking, good melee, good ranged (*coughclericarchercough*) Cons - hard to find any...

Wizards: pros - average buffing, great utility, great nuking. Cons - poor HP, generally poor AC, awful melee.

Battle Sorc: pros - av erage buffing,good nuking, good utility, average melee. Cons - same as druid, for the most part.

Essentially, what Battle Sorcerers gain isn't too great. The added survivability can be gained from a few Sorc/Wiz spells. The added melee isn't too impressive, outside of a full on Gish build.
DrMorganes
10-05-05, 10:50 AM I did a 20 level comparison of the Battle Sorceror vs a multiclass Fighter/Sorceror. In this instance, the Battle Sorceror came up with a greater HP potential, better BAB, better overall casting depth (can cast all spell levels, rather than stopping at 5th Level spells like the multiclass), better Will saves (+12 vs +10), and better caster level with a cost of fewer Feats (no Fighter bonus feats), slightly worse Fortitude saves (+6 instead of +10 for the multiclass) and slightly fewer spells known and per day.

For someone looking for a martial caster with spontaneous spellcasting ability, the Battle Sorceror is a good choice.
Jaxgaret
10-05-05, 12:05 PM I did a 20 level comparison of the Battle Sorceror vs a multiclass Fighter/Sorceror. In this instance, the Battle Sorceror came up with a greater HP potential, better BAB, better overall casting depth (can cast all spell levels, rather than stopping at 5th Level spells like the multiclass), better Will saves (+12 vs +10), and better caster level with a cost of fewer Feats (no Fighter bonus feats), slightly worse Fortitude saves (+6 instead of +10 for the multiclass) and slightly fewer spells known and per day.

For someone looking for a martial caster with spontaneous spellcasting ability, the Battle Sorceror is a good choice.

Actually, the closest class combo to the 20th level Battle Sorceror build would be Sorc9/Barb1/EldritchKnight10. Of course, a Battle Sorceror can also go BSorc9/Barb1/EK10. So comparing builds like that isn't really the best way to go about this sort of thing.

The Eldritch Knight seems to be an interesting reflection of the Battle Sorceror... it gets full BAB and d6 HD, as opposed to BSorc's 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, light armor casting, and reduced casting abilities. Sounds pretty balanced there, again.
Dracspero
10-05-05, 12:08 PM Battle Sorcerer is also a nice lead in to Dragon Disciple. (Go dwarf and take Dwarven Waraxe as 1H Martial Weapon, then use it 2H for the strength benefit)
Shadowfax7
10-05-05, 12:19 PM Unearthed Arcana is OGL.If so, is it in the SRD ?? Because I don't see it in there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaxgaret 10-05-05, 12:46 AM	Wanted to know what you all thought of the Battle Sorceror variant class, found on d20srd.org. The link is Battle Sorceror Variant Character Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) . Or just look at the info here: Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill. Hit Die d8. Base Attack Bonus The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric. Class Skills Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Class Features The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor. Spellcasting A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any). A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one). ________________________________________ _________________________ Does this seem balanced to the Sorceror class? More or less powerful? Thanks in advance....
Phantom Lord 10-05-05, 01:05 AM	Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill. That's great. I like the idea, but bear in mind that, as Wizards and Sorcerers are the (debatably) most powerful classes at lvl 20 anyway, you will need to take something away in exchange. Hit Die d8. Base Attack Bonus The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric. This is pretty heavy stuff. What are the advantages of a fighter over mages? HP and BAB. If you are going to effectively double HP and 1.5x the BAB, the magic part needs to take a big hit. Try...maximum level 6 spells, for starters. Class Skills Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Nothing too big here. Can't say I agree with it flavor-wise, but it works balance-wise. Class Features The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor. Nice. Spellcasting A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. Very nice. This is a class feature I originally intended on adding to the sorcerer, but I instead went with the bloodline path instead. A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any). A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one). Ahh, finally...the drawbacks. I don't think it's enough, to tell you the truth. I mentioned earlier that I would suggest 6th-level spells as a max, and I stand by it. Maybe 7th level. But a fighter/mage of this magnitude doesn't need the ultra-powerful spells, because he's got decent BAB and HP. Try 7th level spells (distributed farther apart...maybe every 3rd level he gets an increase, instead of every-other one; 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th,) 1 less spell known per level, 1 less spell per day, and an increased FORT save. Also, 3/4 caster level (that's: caster level = battle sorcerer level * 3/4) instead of full caster level. That should do the trick.
NightScreamer20 10-05-05, 01:12 AM	LOL I had to look twice since it's the same Variant presented in Unearthed Arcana, ya know a book released by Wizards of the Coast full of Variants for your game. I really hope that site you have has clearance to place that kind of stuff on the web. In my opinion the class' HD should be d6 not d8, but other than that it's on par with the Cleric.
Wyrd Bearer 10-05-05, 01:14 AM	I don't know there, Phantom Lord. One less spell per day AND known total than a normal sorcerer? I can tell you that those drawbacks alone make me not want to ever play this class.
Phantom Lord 10-05-05, 01:25 AM	Well, to me having most of the combat prowess of a rogue (everything but the sneak attack) and having nearly the full arcane ability of a sorc seems pretty spiffy. This is a class I would play (merely for the power, as the flavor doesn't suit me too well at the moment) in a heartbeat.
Perun 10-05-05, 02:15 AM	A similar class is the warmage (I think that's what it's called) from Complete Arcane (and Miniatures Handbook, if I'm not wrong - I don't have that book). It's somewhat similar to battle sorcerer, but you get a slightly lower HD (d6) in exchange for more spells known (he automatically knows all spells of any spell level he can use, but uses a warmage spell list, which has offensive spells exclusively; that is, magic missile, fireball, and lightning bolt, but no fly, teleport or (limited) wish, for example). He also gets bonus sudden metamagic feats and some other nice things. So, if you want to play a "blaster" you might want to check the warmage. Regards.
allenchan 10-05-05, 02:35 AM	its balanced. maybe not compared directly to the sorcerer, but to most other casters it is. Yea, basicly battle sorc. is a warmage that can have a few other spells (like polymorph) instead of ODDLES of blasty spells.
Torack 10-05-05, 02:37 AM	LOL I had to look twice since it's the same Variant presented in Unearthed Arcana, ya know a book released by Wizards of the Coast full of Variants for your game. I really hope that site you have has clearance to place that kind of stuff on the web. In my opinion the class' HD should be d6 not d8, but other than that it's on par with the Cleric. Unearthed Arcana is OGL. Like the PHB, DMG, MM1, XPH and ELH.
Maraxus 10-05-05, 05:07 AM	(...) Ahh, finally...the drawbacks. I don't think it's enough, to tell you the truth. I mentioned earlier that I would suggest 6th-level spells as a max, and I stand by it. Maybe 7th level. But a fighter/mage of this magnitude doesn't need the ultra-powerful spells, because he's got decent BAB and HP. Try 7th level spells (distributed farther apart...maybe every 3rd level he gets an increase, instead of every-other one; 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th,) 1 less spell known per level, 1 less spell per day, and an increased FORT save. Also, 3/4 caster level (that's: caster level = battle sorcerer level * 3/4) instead of full caster level. That should do the trick. So you basicly say, to balance a battle sorcerer, you should make him ... a bard without bardic knowledge and bardic music? Compare the battle sorcerer to the cleric, because they take a similar role (except that the cleric is also the healer). Or better Cleric has turn undead Battle sorc has a familiar Cleric has 2 domain poweres Cleric has the same number of spells in the end (but some have to / can be be choosen from the domain list) Battle sorc can cast in light armor, Cleric can cast in any armor Cleric has access to all cleric spells Battle sorc has access to very few arcane spells. Usually arcane spells are better, but what are the spells that are better? Fireball or Dominate Person are two. And because direct damage loves metamagic, you should try to always have spell slots as high as possible. And because "save or"-spells need high saves you need to put everything into your casting attribute at the expense of at least one physial attribute. The other spells are battlefield control: Web, Black Tentacles, Wall of force... Again, these spells do rarely need an attack role and rarely need to get close to the enemy, too. Among buff spells and attack roll-spells, clerics and sorcerers are en par. So you basicly are slightly worse then the cleric in buffed fighting or a good deal worse the the sorcerer as an arcane caster. Or you share your spells between this two options and are even one step more worse in these two fields. This can still be good but it is definitly not overpowered.
DarknessEternal 10-05-05, 09:58 AM	Absolutely. One fewer spell known at every level makes a Battle Sorcerer barely a caster at all. This class is the arcane equivalent of Psychic Warrior (but without all the bonus feats).
Jaxgaret 10-05-05, 10:07 AM	thanks fellas. i thought it seemed pretty balanced to the bard and cleric. i'm thinking about dropping the hit die to d6 anyway, just so i don't have any "munchkinny" arguments from my DM and fellow players. i'm planning on playing a favored soul/battle sorceror. not the most powerful combo, of course - but i usually powergame to the hilt, this should be a nice change. else i'll just go with rogue/wizard =)
FruitOfTheShroom 10-05-05, 10:16 AM	When you get down to it, the Battle Sorc is still arguably inferior to wizards, druids, and clerics. Is it stronger than a sorc? Obviously. But that isn't afair comparison, because the Sorcerer class is quite weak. Comparing it to the 3 above, it's arguably not even on par with them. Let's compare: Druids: pros - great buffs, alright healing, great nuking, casting while shifted, good melee. cons - generally low AC and HP Clerics: pros - great buffs, great healing, good nuking, good melee, good ranged (coughclericarchercough) Cons - hard to find any... Wizards: pros - average buffing, great utility, great nuking. Cons - poor HP, generally poor AC, awful melee. Battle Sorc: pros - av erage buffing,good nuking, good utility, average melee. Cons - same as druid, for the most part. Essentially, what Battle Sorcerers gain isn't too great. The added survivability can be gained from a few Sorc/Wiz spells. The added melee isn't too impressive, outside of a full on Gish build.
DrMorganes 10-05-05, 10:50 AM	I did a 20 level comparison of the Battle Sorceror vs a multiclass Fighter/Sorceror. In this instance, the Battle Sorceror came up with a greater HP potential, better BAB, better overall casting depth (can cast all spell levels, rather than stopping at 5th Level spells like the multiclass), better Will saves (+12 vs +10), and better caster level with a cost of fewer Feats (no Fighter bonus feats), slightly worse Fortitude saves (+6 instead of +10 for the multiclass) and slightly fewer spells known and per day. For someone looking for a martial caster with spontaneous spellcasting ability, the Battle Sorceror is a good choice.
Jaxgaret 10-05-05, 12:05 PM	I did a 20 level comparison of the Battle Sorceror vs a multiclass Fighter/Sorceror. In this instance, the Battle Sorceror came up with a greater HP potential, better BAB, better overall casting depth (can cast all spell levels, rather than stopping at 5th Level spells like the multiclass), better Will saves (+12 vs +10), and better caster level with a cost of fewer Feats (no Fighter bonus feats), slightly worse Fortitude saves (+6 instead of +10 for the multiclass) and slightly fewer spells known and per day. For someone looking for a martial caster with spontaneous spellcasting ability, the Battle Sorceror is a good choice. Actually, the closest class combo to the 20th level Battle Sorceror build would be Sorc9/Barb1/EldritchKnight10. Of course, a Battle Sorceror can also go BSorc9/Barb1/EK10. So comparing builds like that isn't really the best way to go about this sort of thing. The Eldritch Knight seems to be an interesting reflection of the Battle Sorceror... it gets full BAB and d6 HD, as opposed to BSorc's 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, light armor casting, and reduced casting abilities. Sounds pretty balanced there, again.
Dracspero 10-05-05, 12:08 PM	Battle Sorcerer is also a nice lead in to Dragon Disciple. (Go dwarf and take Dwarven Waraxe as 1H Martial Weapon, then use it 2H for the strength benefit)
Shadowfax7 10-05-05, 12:19 PM	Unearthed Arcana is OGL.If so, is it in the SRD ?? Because I don't see it in there.