Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Athaal 08-23-07, 04:53 AM	I am hopefully going to be using this class in my session so please tell me if it is over powered or under powered at any levels. Thanks guys. Duelist The traditional style duelist is not a dmg soaker, not a specific dmg dealer, but a kind of fighter with wit and panache. I like the idea of a duelist with a one handed weapon in one hand and thats it. Rapiers FTW. HD = d8 Skill Points = 4 + INT (x 4 at lvl 1) Class Skills = Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex). Level | B A B | Fort | Ref | Will | Special 1st 1 0 2 0 Weapon Finesse 2nd 2 0 3 0 Uncanny Dodge 3rd 3 1 3 1 Dexterous Placement 4th 4 1 4 1 Riposte 25% 5th 5 1 4 1 Reflexive Fortune 1/day, Narrow Profile +1 6th 6/1 2 5 2 Duelist's Panache 7th 7/2 2 5 2 Deflect Arrows Feat, Tireless Technique (2nd Attack) 8th 8/3 2 6 2 Perfect Combat Expertise, Riposte 50% 9th 9/4 3 6 3 Disarming Flourish 10th 10/5 3 7 3 Narrow Profile +2 11th 11/6/1 3 7 3 Parry 12th 12/7/2 4 8 4 Reflexive Fortune 2/day, Riposte 75%, Tireless Technique (3rd Attack) 13th 13/8/3 4 8 4 Improved Uncanny Dodge 14th 14/9/4 4 9 4 Flurry of Deflection 15th 15/10/5 5 9 5 Narrow Profile +3 16th 16/11/6/1 5 10 5 Riposte 100% 17th 17/12/7/2 5 10 5 Tireless Technique (4th Attack) 18th 18/13/8/3 6 11 6 Elegant Attack of Opportunity 19th 19/14/9/4 6 11 6 Reflexive Fortune 3/day 20th 20/15/10/5 6 12 6 Of Poise and Finesse, Narrow Profile +4 Weapon and Armor Proficiency A Duelist is proficient with no armor and all Simple and Light Martial Melee weapons. The Duelist is also proficient with the Rapier. Duelist Special Abilites, Armour and Shields A Duelist is not able to use any special abilities available to the character when any type of armor or shield is worn. Having proficiency with the armor or shield does not change this. Duelist Special Abilities and the Off-hand A Duelist is never allowed any weapon or item to be carried in his/her Off-hand whilst using any special abilities. Using any weapon or carrying any item in the Off-hand whilst using these abilities prevents them from being executed correctly, and so they automatically fail, miss and provoke attacks of opportunity. Weapon Finesse As the Feat, PHB page 102. Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue ability of the same name. See PHB page 50. Dexterous Placement At level 3, a Duelist adds his/her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls, instead of Strength, to a maximum of +1/2 levels. This can only be applied to Finessable weapons. Riposte While the Duelist is fighting defensively, when an opponent misses the character with a melee attack, there is a percentage chance that the Duelist is able to retaliate and return with an Attack of Opportunity. At level 4 and every four levels thereafter the percentage chance for a Riposte increases by 25% (25% at level 4, 50% at level 8, up to 100% at level 16). Riposte cannot be used more than once per opponent/round (can target additional opponents with the Combat Reflexes feat). Reflexive Fortune Once a day at level 5, and every 7 levels thereafter (2/day at level 13, 3/day at level 20), as an immediate action the Duelist can choose to take a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude or Will save. The DC doesn't change and a failed attempt uses up the use/day, and causes the character to suffer the ill effects. Narrow Profile At level 5, and every 5 levels thereafter (10, 15, 20) the Duelist adds +1 to his/her AC whilst fighting defensively. This is culminative (+1 at level 5, +2 total at level 10). This extra bonus is under the Miscellaneous Modifier to AC. Duelist's Panache The Duelist adds his/her Charisma modifier aswell as his/her Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, to a maximum of +1/2 levels in Duelist, rounded down. This can only apply to Finessable weapons. Deflect Arrows Feat As feat, PHB page 93. Tireless Technique At level 7 the duelist learns to combine his honed endurance with complex attack combinations to make more accurate strikes as he continues. If the duelist makes a full attack while fighting defensively and also fought defensively in the previous round, all of his attacks past the first receive a +5 to base attack bonus (this can not raise any attack's base attack bonus higher than normal). For every 5 levels past 7, the duelist may continue to use this ability for an additional round as long as he continues to make a full attack while fighting defensively. So, a 7th level duelist could fight defensively one round and make a full attack at +7/+7 base attack bonus while fighting defensively the next. A 12th level duelist could fight defensively in the first round (as well as the subsequent two), make a full attack at +12/+12/+7 in the second round, and then make a full attack at +12/+12/+12 in the third. Disarming Flourish If the Duelist makes a full attack against a single target, then he/she may make a free disarm attempt. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A failed disarm suffers no ill effects for the Duelist (eg if the character fails, the foe cannot make a disarm attempt against the character). Perfect Combat Expertise Whenever the character would add a bonus to AC through fighting defensively or the use of combat expertise, the character adds 1-1/2 the penalty given attack bonus to AC instead of the usual +1. Parry A Duelist at level 11 can once a round substitute an attack roll at full base attack bonus for his/her AC for a single attack. Improved Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue ability of the same name. See PHB page 50. Flurry of Deflection At 14th level, in addition to the one arrow the Duelist can deflect each round he/she may continue to deflect ranged attacks until his/her reflexes run out. For each ranged attack targeting the character beyond the first in a round roll a Reflex save against the attack roll of the opponent. Magical attacks add +2 to the DC. For each ranged attack beyond the second you wish to deflect add +2 more to the DC. Rays cannot be deflected. Elegant Attack of Opportunity Whenever the character would be allowed an attack of opportunity on any foe, he/she gains a bonus on his/her attack roll equal to his/her Intelligence modifier, maximum +1/4 levels in the Duelist class. Of Poise and Finesse The critical threat range and multiplier increases by one for a single weapon of the Duelist's choice that he/she is proficient in (19-20 -> 18-20, x3 -> x4). Additionally, the Duelist now counts one size smaller for melee purposes (this excludes weapon damage, bullrush, reach, and changes to attacks of opportunity. ie for these melee purposes the character still counts like a character of the previous size catagory).
Athaal 08-23-07, 10:12 AM	if anybody could simply give feedback because i want to use this class. please, any news is good news.
Athaal 08-23-07, 05:41 PM	hmmm... thanks for the response to this post all. common curtesy dictates all.
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 06:32 PM	Don't get snappy. This is the first time I'd even seen this on the boards. Just now. Anyway, a few of its features don't make much sense and/or are too strong. Grace is a bit much. Full BAB and then an added extra on top of that? That stacks with Weapon Focus? No. I think you're looking for a dodge bonus to AC (which is fine) and perhaps some other "grace-like" bonus. Not to hit. Maybe you could say that your Duelist can apply his Dexterity bonus to attack rolls with any weapon (finessable or not). Perceptive Defense is alright if you want to make the Duelist more Wisdom focused rather than Intelligence focused (I actually think it rather makes a good amount of sense). This could go along with Intuitive Skill (as intuition and wisdom go hand in hand, not intelligence). Right now we're looking at a class whose MAD is worse than the Monk's. There is however a problem with Intuitive skill in that you can't just add one ability modifier to all skills and say that's balanced. One of the Factotum's BEST abilities is at 3rd level they add Intelligence to all Strength and Dexterity based checks. What I was thinking is that you could have this Duelist add his Wisdom to all Charisma based skill checks (allowing him to intuitively Bluff, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal, even Use Magic Device - all of which can make sense for Wisdom). This will help him to Feint in combat and keep his wisdom high for the monklike AC bonus. As far as Elaborate Riposte is concerned, I haven't got a clue what it actually does. Let me try to interpret. Elaborate Riposte: Once per round, while you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, when an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may attack that foe as an immediate action and using your highest attack bonus. (Was this your intent?) Disarming Flourish is nice. I would give it to this Duelist perhaps at 6th level even. It's a mundane enough manuever to give them at a lower level. Duelist's Challenge, is too much like the Knight's Fighting Challenge, and for me both fits but doesn't fit the Duelist. It fits for me because of the arrogance common to many Duelist types and the desire to prove himself against all comers, but it doesn't fit for me because of the precedent set by the Knight (however now that I'm thinking about it, it feels more natural for a Duelist/Swashbuckling type than a Knight type). It might make sense to integrate this sort of thing earlier in the class levels and add the Knight's Challenge Test of Mettle somewhere in there as well. Deflect is another one of those things that I can't be sure what exactly you mean for it to do. Once per round, per day? What does that even mean? Deflect all ranged attacks, including rays targetting the Duelist? No. Again, too powerful. I suggest giving the Duelist the Deflect Arrows feat somewhere early on in its level progression, and then allow the Duelist to Deflect additional levels as he gains levels (one possibility as to allow them to make Reflex saving throws against ranged attack rolls made against them to Deflect them. Each attack beyond the first carries an accumulating +2 increase to the save DC and magical ray attacks carry a +5 increase to the save DC). Finally, as always, I like capstones. Unique, compelling 20th level abilities that offer the player something nice for completing the class. Think of something to put at level 20 that is unique and powerful.
Athaal 08-23-07, 06:56 PM	Firstly, sorry for the snappiness; its amazing how every other post, no matter how seemingly mundane, is replied to and not this. But thanks so much for actually taking the time and thought. Ok heres what i think and will change etc. Grace is a bit much. Full BAB and then an added extra on top of that? That stacks with Weapon Focus? No. I think you're looking for a dodge bonus to AC (which is fine) and perhaps some other "grace-like" bonus. Not to hit. Maybe you could say that your Duelist can apply his Dexterity bonus to attack rolls with any weapon (finessable or not). Hmm... I personnaly dont like the 'your Duelist can apply his Dexterity bonus to attack rolls with any weapon (finessable or not)' bit, but i do see your point. Grace could be way over powering. Perhaps +1 AC and +1 to either Reflex Saves, or dexterity based skills? Perceptive Defense is alright if you want to make the Duelist more Wisdom focused rather than Intelligence focused (I actually think it rather makes a good amount of sense). Yes. Here I will also tell you why I deliberately made some of the abilities really good for this class. If you notice, Duelist's Panache is Charisma based, Intuitive Skill is Intelligence based, Perceptive Defense is Wisdom based, and ofc Dexterity is a must for finesse and Constitution is a must for health. Thats 4/6 attributes really important. Meaning, it will be hard for any character to gain max potential out of all abilities of this class. But maybe that doesnt justify some of the abilities. There is however a problem with Intuitive skill in that you can't just add one ability modifier to all skills and say that's balanced. One of the Factotum's BEST abilities is at 3rd level they add Intelligence to all Strength and Dexterity based checks. What I was thinking is that you could have this Duelist add his Wisdom to all Charisma based skill checks (allowing him to intuitively Bluff, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal, even Use Magic Device - all of which can make sense for Wisdom). This will help him to Feint in combat and keep his wisdom high for the monklike AC bonus. Yes i suppose but in turning to Wisdom I am preventing the need for higher Intelligence, which may be good, but even still can potentially unbalance the other attributes. You make good points though. Elaborate Riposte: Once per round, while you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, when an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may attack that foe as an immediate action and using your highest attack bonus. (Was this your intent?) Yes thats it I think. Its an offshoot of the 'counter-attack' idea in the fighter varient from PHB2. Disarming Flourish is nice. I would give it to this Duelist perhaps at 6th level even. It's a mundane enough manuever to give them at a lower level. I'm glad you like it. I hope its not too overpowering because its in my opinion so original. It might make sense to integrate this sort of thing earlier in the class levels and add the Knight's Challenge Test of Mettle somewhere in there as well. I would consider it but with d8 HD and no armor, its suicide man. Also if its tipping the higher end of reasonable already then pehaps not adding more abilities is better. Deflect is another one of those things that I can't be sure what exactly you mean for it to do. Once per round, per day? What does that even mean? Deflect all ranged attacks, including rays targetting the Duelist? No. Again, too powerful. I suggest giving the Duelist the Deflect Arrows feat somewhere early on in its level progression, and then allow the Duelist to Deflect additional levels as he gains levels (one possibility as to allow them to make Reflex saving throws against ranged attack rolls made against them to Deflect them. Each attack beyond the first carries an accumulating +2 increase to the save DC and magical ray attacks carry a +5 increase to the save DC). Firstly, as it currently is, its for one round in the whole day. '...then allow the Duelist to Deflect additional levels as he gains levels ' did you mean deflect addition arrows? if so I like that idea. And i may even scrap rays; its unnatural for a non-magical class. The accumulating DC reflex save idea might work however. Finally, as always, I like capstones. Unique, compelling 20th level abilities that offer the player something nice for completing the class. Think of something to put at level 20 that is unique and powerful. Hey I love capstones too. If you can help me suppress other abilities then I will be more than happy to make one up. TY so much P.S. That snappy note was my version of a BUMP xP.
Athaal 08-23-07, 06:57 PM	Sorry one more thing. What is MAD? is it Max/min armed damage or something.
Athaal 08-23-07, 07:09 PM	oops forget this post
Athaal 08-23-07, 07:15 PM	Level | B A B | Fort | Ref | Will |Special 1st 1 0 2 0 Perceptive Defense, Grace +2 (Not to attack bonus, but to double to AC) 2nd 2 0 3 0 Duelist's Panache 3rd 3 1 3 1 Intuitive Skill (Wis not Int, to Charisma only) 4th 4 1 4 1 Deflect Arrows Feat (added) 5th 5 1 4 1 Reflexive Fortune 1/day 6th 6/1 2 5 2 Grace +4 7th 7/2 2 5 2 Elaborate Riposte 8th 8/3 2 6 2 9th 9/4 3 6 3 Disarming Flourish 10th 10/5 3 7 3 11th 11/6/1 3 7 3 Grace +6 12th 12/7/2 4 8 4 Reflexive Fortune 2/day 13th 13/8/3 4 8 4 14th 14/9/4 4 9 4 Deflect Arrows Feat 2/rnd, stacking DC 15th 15/10/5 5 9 5 16th 16/11/6/1 5 10 5 Grace +8 17th 17/12/7/2 5 10 5 18th 18/13/8/3 6 11 6 19th 19/14/9/4 6 11 6 Reflexive Fortune 3/day 20th 20/15/10/5 6 12 6 CAPSTONE
bkdubs123 08-23-07, 07:19 PM	Off to fencing right now (appropriate, no?) I'll have more to discuss when I return.
Athaal 08-23-07, 08:33 PM	Ok I finally updated the master post. Its in my opinion perfect. But sytill evaluate! I need all of youses help in perfecting this please. I'm off to bed. So expect a late reply. Thanks
Athaal 08-24-07, 09:02 AM	No more dead levels. I still reckon its OverPowered
Khadmus 08-24-07, 09:23 AM	MAD- Multiple Ability Dependancy.
Athaal 08-24-07, 09:38 AM	Ahh thanks. Thats a mitigating factor, yes?
bkdubs123 08-24-07, 12:07 PM	The problem is I'm not sure you really need a mitigating factor... sure a couple of your abilities are scaled a bit too high, but a few others aren't powerful enough. You need to simply move the power levels around until you find a better combination. And MAD shouldn't be used to balance in class, IMHO. The bonus from Grace starts off, and becomes too high, I think. However, you aren't proficient with any armor whatsoever... I suppose its a toss up. I would still like to see this come down some. Perhaps simply steal the AC bonus and make this guy Wisdom and Dexterity or Wisdom and Charisma based. As far as Charisma goes I think you need to rethink at least one class feature. Duelist's Panache doesn't really make sense for me - I can't wrap my head around the notion that simply because you have a forceful personality or are a extroverted/handsome/really cool guy that now start to do more damage. For my swashbuckler class I felt it made more sense to add Charisma to attack rolls, because you start to attack with style and flair, and against such "unorthodox" tactics many enemies wouldn't be well equipped to oppose you. Elegant Strike: This is one of those abilities that needs a power up. The ability itself is dependant on multiple high ability scores to be of any use. Perhaps make it like a Paladin's Smite. Add Charisma to the attack roll and then some sort of non-ability dependant damage bonus if the attack hits. Everything else looks okay up until the Capstone (the capstone's just not my cup of tea). Everything except maybe Rolling Reaction? I think I understand what it does, but the wording is pretty awkward. About the Capstone, I generally try to avoid Capstones that merely make you 30%-50% better at everything you already do and I feel like that's what yours does. It provides a bonus that if your progression extended for another ten levels would be scaled logically throughout all of those levels rather than at just 20th. I would suggest you try and think of something unique to offer at 20th rather than making nearly all of the class features +2 better.
Athaal 08-24-07, 02:43 PM	As far as Charisma goes I think you need to rethink at least one class feature. Duelist's Panache doesn't really make sense for me - I can't wrap my head around the notion that simply because you have a forceful personality or are a extroverted/handsome/really cool guy that now start to do more damage. For my swashbuckler class I felt it made more sense to add Charisma to attack rolls, because you start to attack with style and flair, and against such "unorthodox" tactics many enemies wouldn't be well equipped to oppose you. Yes i was thinking that also. I doubt the Duelist 'persuades' the enemy to hurt more xP. But wouldn't like +5 to attack bonus be way to overpowered? perhaps, i could limit it to +1/5 levels. I will change Grace as yes, although i wear no armor, its impossible for a character to be so graceful as to protect himself as heavy armor would. I will half it. I might even scrap Elegant Strike. It is an awkward ability and most people wouldnt bother sacrificing 3/4 attacks for one slightly better attack. Hmm i'll think of a capstone. I just don't want a spell'like ability capstone or a skill based one. give me 10 minutes and ill have another one
Athaal 08-24-07, 03:59 PM	Scrapped Elegant Strike and edited Grace, Of Poise and Finesse and removed dead levels.
Lord_Zeb 08-24-07, 08:07 PM	Grace is actually the name of the PrC Duelist extra Reflex Save bonus, as well as the Swashbucklers, and should not be used. Not to mention that Grace, Perceptive Defense, Narrow Profile and other AC bonuses are overpowered, but as you are Unarmored you could possibly exchange that for the Monk's AC bonus progression. Reflexive Fortune? Diverting all Saves to Reflexes is also a bit powerful, as it is essentially giving you the bonuses of a Monk. Also bothersome mechanic. Does it have a per day use? Weapon and Armor proficiencies are a bit weak, considering the full BAB class you have... All Simple weapons + Light Martial melee weapons + Rapier and Whip should be something more like it. Or Bard weapons perhaps. Dexterous Placement, adding Dex modifier to all damage rolls is too powerful an ability. Especially when gaining that AC modifier at the same time. Should at least be limited to Finessable weapons. Duelist Class Skills and the Off-hand? Bit too harsh statement. A Duelist is worse at using the off-hand than an untrained Commoner? Simply state which bonuses do not apply when using a Shield, two-handed weapon or secondary weapon in off-hand. Duelist's Panache and Dexterous Placement? Attacking with a gusto, with a bonus like the Swashbuckler's with CHA instead of INT could be viable, but the combination is a bit much. Also: limit it to Finessable weapons only. Elegant Strike - To hit bonus AND bonus damage, with a full BAB class? Now you are definitely overpowering it. You could possibly put in the Skirmish ability from the Scout instead, granting AC and +precision damage when mobile. Elaborate Riposte - use existing rules instead of setting up special rules. Simply make a missed attack while fighting Defensively grant an Attack of Opportunity. (Nice combo with Combat Reflexes. ;)) And, NO ATTACKS CAN BE MADE when you are in Full Defence. Will still be a formidable ability. Disarming Flourish - Bit powerful, essentially giving you an extra attack when attacking in full force. (Remember, a Disarm action can be done with an Attack, from a Multiple attack.) However, can be ok, especially if you have Skirmish, and then trade a full attack option for the damage you otherwise could have dealth. Not very necessary though. Deflect Arrows Feat is nice, and here powerful since you do not need to take Improved Unarmed Combat feat too. Flurry of Deflection also nice addition there, giving a bit of flair, even if a bit powerful. But, people who knows how to hit will hit you anyway, as it essentially gives you the highest of AC or Reflex Save roll, as AC. Rolling Reaction - Scrap this. Take Uncanny Dodge instead. Easier to handle, established set of rules that apply in more occurances, and you should get it sooner too. (Or all your fancy AC modifiers are lost at most combat's beginnings, leaving you nearly defenceless until level 17.) Elegant Attack of Opportunity - Bonus to hit on AoO? Scrap it, too powerful. Especially together with Intuitive Skill, Perceptive Defense, Elegant Attack of Opportunity... Wisdom? Thought that a Duelist would be witty, not intuitive. INT is the PrC Duelist main mental ability, regarding Canny Defence AC bonus. Of Poise and Finesse? - boosting several already overpowered and hard to use abilities...? You will still be easy to kill. ;) Get something that counts instead, like Evasion. In general... No, this is an assortment of nifty special rules, munchkining in the direction of something that will be hard to attain, and totally useless in the end anyway as: Need to have high Dex, Wis and Cha, and still get killed when in an ambush, and is completely useless at 1st level. (8 hp, no armor, no shield, and only Finesse to help out to hit things, but not to damage things, and only got access to crappy weapons?) Personally, I would gut it from abilities, and then: 1) Add Monk's AC bonus: +Wis or Int or even Cha to AC, +1 extra every 5th level. That and Finesse should hopefully get him though 1st level alive. Only usable while unarmored, unencumbered and not using Shield. 2) Add Scirmish ability starting at 2nd level. (2nd +1d6, 4th +1 AC, 6th +2d6, 8th +2 AC, 10th +3d6, 12th +3 AC, 14th +4d6, 16th +4 AC, 18th +5d6, 20th +5 AC. Which together with AC bonus would be 10+5+4+Dex+ability+magic bonuses as AC at 20th level.) And, state that this Skirmish can only be used when armed with a one-handed Finessable weapon and not using shield, 2-handed weapon or second handed weapon. (Which states it cannot be used with a bow. Which is accessable as untrained use, multiclassing, or as Weapon proficiency even if the class does not have it as a proficiency.) And of course that one need to move at least 10 feet to gain any use of this bonus. 4) Divide up all of the above abilities over the levels and see where there are Dead levels, and add Uncanny Dodge (3rd), Improved Uncanny Dodge (11th), Evasion (9th) and Improved Evasion (17th) at suitable steps. 5) Fill in the rest of the dead levels (7th, 13th, 19th) with further abilities, maybe from the list above, to give some... panache to this Duelist. ;) Powering damage does not need to be done though, as Skirmish takes care of that. Would also add Knowledge(local), Knowledge(Nobility) and possible one of Search (if you make the Duelist INT-based instead of Wisdom based), Spot or Listen, as well as a bit more Weapon proficiencies, too. That would be a meaningful and powerful progression anyway. ;) Not sure if it is totally balanced, but I think it will be ok enough. And one could possibly put in a weak ability at the levels that only grant AC bonus (especially the Skirmish ones) and still not upset the balance too much. And apart from this? Play a Swashbuckler that moves into Duelist PrC if you are unhappy with this layout. ;)
Athaal 08-25-07, 06:39 AM	thanks for your opinions. Ill reply to all of it Firstly, in regards to Grace, I personally think that it is fine to copy the name, so long as anyone can refer to the text to see that it is different. Also it would appear for some reason that you replied after I updated it, removing Elegant Strike, and changing Of Poise and Finesse, and lowering Grace. Maybe post a new comment about those? As for the other comments, here goes. Reflexive Fortune is only usable 1/day until level 13, 2/day, and then 3/day at level 20. If it was at will what would be the point of having poor saves. I will change the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies aswell because you are right about the lack of choice. I personally do not feel that having Dex modifier bonus to damage rolls is too powerful, especially since I changed Duelist's Panache to being attack rolls though I will limit it slightly. Therefore I will not change Dexterous Placement. But i'll limit it to Finessable weapons. As to the Duelist and the Off-hand, just because the Duelist cannot wield anything in the Off-hand, doesn't mean the character is not able to. Ofc a commoner is less skillful with it. Its just that anything in the Off-hand would get in the way and off-balance the Duelist. I will consider staggering Elaborate Riposte out as a percentage change chance for a riposting AoO. Rolling Reaction may be awkward to fix. I will place in Uncanny Dodge as a replacement. And yes, wit is based around Intelligence, but Wisdom can be used. Wisdom doesn't necessarily measure Intuition; it is also a measurement of insight, knowledge of a certain skill and discernment. It is credible to have either Int or Wis. I will think then decide and change accordingly. The main reason 1st level is quite weak is because I hate dip classes. The Scout's Skirmish idea isn't a bad idea, though I would change the name. Thanks again for your help
Athaal 08-25-07, 06:46 AM	Now to implement the changes...
Athaal 08-25-07, 08:20 AM	OK here are the changes: *Removed Intuitive Skill altogether - people all have different opinions on it and as the Duelist currently is as a class, I personally dont think the feature is realistic anymore. *Replaced Rolling Reaction with Uncanny Dodge (level 4). *Removed Elaborate Riposte and changed it for a total defense spread out skill to fill in gaps progressively. *Changed the formatting for the Grace Bonus.
Calallion 08-25-07, 09:52 AM	I like it, from reading the posts it seems like at first the class was vop but now its settled nicely and could potentially work in any setting. A great class for a player who knows the limits of his capabilities and can fully utilise the classes potential through his canny apporach to situations - very good in the right hands.
Athaal 08-25-07, 09:56 AM	yay thats really great - I mean I love an over-powered-easily-exploitable-class as much as anyone else, but i also love a fun class with fair rules. So my duelist osnt a right off! haha
Athaal 08-25-07, 09:56 AM	isnt*
Raggers 08-25-07, 05:15 PM	I reckon the Duelist is overpowered but not in an unfixable way. Your duelist is like a cross between a monk and a fighter but you have the best of both. You have the base attack bonus of a fighter and with Charisma and Dexterity bonuses to attack and wisdom and dexterity bonuses to ac you'll have both higher than a monk. However you still have the all round usefullness of a monk with a useful ability every level. Your grace ability is better than a monks e.g like a monk it is one every five but it starts earlier. Fighters are balanced because they are only good at combat, monks are balanced because they are all rounders, you have both, making your class overpowered. The combination of Riposte and you high BAB means you'll make a lot of high damaging attacks. You could argue that monks have three good saves but you can use Reflexive fortune to use your reflex for all, (even though it is only three times a day) also Critical lunge is overpowered Basically you need to lower your BAB and remove the wisdom to AC. Otherwise your Character is Dextrous, Wise and Charismatic. most classes are one. Rougues are dextrous, mages intelligent,fighters strong and monks wise
Athaal 08-25-07, 06:44 PM	Firstly i would like to say that isnt the whole point of making a new class is to take the best bits of other classes and combining them with made up ideas, and then putting it together in a way that pleases the creator, in a way that is fun in their opinion to play, and in a way that is feasable and not overpowered. i spent over 90 minutes comparing the Monk and the Duelist here and this is what i found (I include me research:cool:) : Monk gets: 3 bonus feats, a progressive unarmed strike (sure its not necessarily all good but that is why you even took the class – its staple), evasion, fast movement, still mind, magical fists, slow fall, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, lawful fists, diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, adamantine fists, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, empty body, perfect self. In order of amazingness: Perfect self, empty body, tongue of sun and moon, purity of body/diamond body, quivering palm, diamond soul, improved evasion, wholeness of body, Fast Movement, Ki Strike (Adamantine, lawful and magical), abundant step, 3x bonus feats, slow fall, evasion, still mind , timeless body and the progressive unarmed strike is a given. Now this is how I see it – you may see it differently, but hey try it. Greater: Perfect self, empty body, tongue of sun and moon, purity/diamond body, quivering palm Least: Diamond Soul, Improved Evasion, Wholeness of Body, Fast Movement, Ki Strike Lesser: Abundant step, 3x bonus feats, slow fall, evasion, still mind, timeless body and unarmed strike. --------------------------------------- Now the Duelist: Grace, Weapon Finesse, Riposte, Uncanny Dodge, Dexterous Placement, Duelist’s Panache, Reflexive Fortune, Perceptive Defense, Deflect Arrows, Disarming Flourish, Parry, Flurry of Deflection, Narrow Profile, Elegant Attack of Opportunity, Of Poise and Finesse. In order of amazingness: Of Poise and Finesse, Riposte, Disarming Flourish, Parry, Flurry of Deflection, Elegant Attack of Opportunity, Uncanny Dodge, Grace, Dexterous Placement, Duelist’s Panache, Reflexive Fortune, Perceptive Defense, Deflect Arrows, Narrow Profile, Weapon Finesse. Greater: Of Poise and Finesse, Riposte, Disarming Flourish, Parry, Flurry of Deflection, Lesser: Elegant Attack of Opportunity, Uncanny Dodge, Grace, Dexterous Placement, Duelists Panache, Least: Reflexive Fortune, Perceptive Defense, Deflect Arrows, Narrow Profile, Weapon Finesse --------------------------------------- Conclusion: The Duelist gets 15 class skills forgetting critical lunge. The monk gets 21 (3 x bonus feats, Purity/Diamond Body = 2). Ok now canceling: Duelist ||||||| Monk Grace ||||||| AC bonus Of Poise and Finesse||||||| Perfect Self Dexterous Placement ||||||| Purity/Diamond Body Riposte ||||||| Ki Strike Disarming Flourish ||||||| Quivering Palm Parry ||||||| Empty Body Duelist’s Panache ||||||| Tongue of the Sun and Moon Deflect Arrow ||||||| Evasion Flurry of Deflection ||||||| Improved Evasion Uncanny Dodge ||||||| Fast Movement Perceptive Defense ||||||| Diamond Soul Reflexive Fortune ||||||| Wholeness of Body Elegant Attack of Opportunity ||||||| Abundant Step Weapon Finesse ||||||| Still Mind Narrow Profile ||||||| Timeless Body ---------- |||||||| 3x Bonus Feats ---------- ||||||| Unarmed Strike ---------- ||||||| Slow Fall There are 5 unused spaces (3x feat, unarmed strike, slow fall) however the rapier cancels the unarmed strike out. Therefore after pretty equal cancelling, there is a difference of 3 feats, and slow fall, vs. the higher attack bonus of the Duelist. This pretty much sums up the comparison; whilst the Duelist has less 'active combat focused class skills', the monk has more 'self protecting, passive, class skills'. Sure the Duelist's defensive abilities are AC based (Perceptive Defense, Grace, Parry (helps defense), deflect arrows, Flurry of Deflection, Riposte) but that is just the way I wanted the class to be. I hate the idea of a finessably awesome Duelist getting cut to pieces by a barbarian. And it is worth noting that the Monk's defensive abilities are not so AC based (AC bonus, Evasion, Improved Evasion) but they protect in a different way (Still Mind, Diamond Soul, Empty Body, Perfect Self, Timeless Body against spellcasters; Abundant Step, Diamond Body, Wholeness of Body, Purity of Body, Slow Fall and Fast Movement protect the character in multiple way, getting them out of trouble.) I just chose it that way. Its not as if you made the monk class Raggers, and I'm sure that if you did it would definately be different. If you really feel either the Duelist is overpowered or the Monk is underpowered, consult our DM. Hes flexible and if you give credible reasons he could bestow upon you the chance the change some abilities, maybe swapping Slow Fall or the Fast Movement for something here. Hope this hasn't made you hate this class. I love a fair game as much as anyone but if the DM deems this class fine (already has) then i see no reason to change it unless you can make him change his mind. Sorry for the long post anyone just wanted to clear that up
Raggers 08-26-07, 04:38 AM	"[QUOTE=Athaal;13548755]Firstly i would like to say that isnt the whole point of making a new class is to take the best bits of other classes and combining them with made up ideas, and then putting it together in a way that pleases the creator, in a way that is fun in their opinion to play, and in a way that is feasable and not overpowered." I think you kind of missed the point, I don't think that making a new class should involve taking good points from other classes i just think that's what you have done. "Grace ||||||| AC bonus Of Poise and Finesse||||||| Perfect Self Dexterous Placement ||||||| Purity/Diamond Body Riposte ||||||| Ki Strike Disarming Flourish ||||||| Quivering Palm Parry ||||||| Empty Body Duelist’s Panache ||||||| Tongue of the Sun and Moon Deflect Arrow ||||||| Evasion Flurry of Deflection ||||||| Improved Evasion Uncanny Dodge ||||||| Fast Movement Perceptive Defense ||||||| Diamond Soul Reflexive Fortune ||||||| Wholeness of Body Elegant Attack of Opportunity ||||||| Abundant Step Weapon Finesse ||||||| Still Mind Narrow Profile ||||||| Timeless Body ---------- |||||||| 3x Bonus Feats ---------- ||||||| Unarmed Strike ---------- ||||||| Slow Fall" Firstly, some of the skills you've compared our uneven, Riposte is much better than Ki strike, also a lot of monk skills require specific circumstances to work e.g. still mind, whereas the vast majority of your skills are useful in most situations "There are 5 unused spaces (3x feat, unarmed strike, slow fall) however the rapier cancels the unarmed strike out. Therefore after pretty equal cancelling, there is a difference of 3 feats, and slow fall, vs. the higher attack bonus of the Duelist." Firstly I don't think that the skills are 'pretty evenly balanced' but still i don't think having a limited array of bonus feats and slow fall makes up for an attack bonus usually reserved for the extremely martial classes "This pretty much sums up the comparison; whilst the Duelist has less 'active combat focused class skills', the monk has more 'self protecting, passive, class skills'." A lot of the duelist skills are passive as well: Grace, Duelist panache, Dexterous Placement etc "Sure the Duelist's defensive abilities are AC based (Perceptive Defense, Grace, Parry (helps defense), deflect arrows, Flurry of Deflection, Riposte) but that is just the way I wanted the class to be. I hate the idea of a finessably awesome Duelist getting cut to pieces by a barbarian." To be fair, a barbarian would still probably mince this character, what with your low hit die and all, but you have more options:) "If you really feel either the Duelist is overpowered or the Monk is underpowered, consult our DM. Hes flexible and if you give credible reasons he could bestow upon you the chance the change some abilities, maybe swapping Slow Fall or the Fast Movement for something here." I don't think the monk is underpowered: I love my monk but I do feel that the duelist is overpowered, and the campaign would be adversely affected by an Overpowered character. I dont want to get the DM to change my character, i want your character to be fair. Anyway, soz for the long reply
Athaal 08-26-07, 06:14 AM	Firstly, some of the skills you've compared our uneven, Riposte is much better than Ki strike, also a lot of monk skills require specific circumstances to work e.g. still mind, whereas the vast majority of your skills are useful in most situations Ofc some comparasons are uneven; i didnt really compare to power; i compared to the use over the levels; i know riposte is better than ki strike, but they are both progressive. I tried to do it by use not power. would this conversation end if i said that i would like to keep it as it was but i would also happily change it if it proved too good. We shall play with it for a bit out of the game against foes and see the differences. Hopefully that will clear it up
nonsi 08-26-07, 07:12 AM	I don't get your effort around Ripost & Parry. Wouldn't it be much simpler to just take Defensive Sweep (CW) and Melee Evasion (PHB II) ?
Athaal 08-29-07, 07:37 AM	Firstly, defensive sweep requires total defense. Riposte doesn't. Also Riposte grants an Attack of Opportunity. Also, Melee Evasion requires fighting defensively. Parry does not. Parry also does not have to be used on the target that dodge has been specified on. Parry is more versatile and because of uncanny dodge, can be used when the target would be caught flat-footed. Hope that Cleared it up
DoargonJin 08-29-07, 01:17 PM	As far as the class' intended power level, I don't think it's anything to balk about. Comparing it to a fighter will make it seem overpowered, but that's because the fighter is... hm... how do we say? A fighter. Not a point for balance, just as the cleric and wizard aren't points for balance. As I see it, this class has decent use for a character that wants to have fun with a mobile melee class that doesn't rely on feats for their class abilities. That said, Duelist's Panache makes no sense. The charisma bonus to damage comes across as confusing, to say the least. The inflating of dexterity in this class is unavoidable, I'd say, but it gets to be a bit much when you get AC, reflex saves that substitute for will and fortitude, and extra damage. I'm no fan of MAD, but Dexterity is getting some serious loving, here. I would consider the skirmish suggestion, and use that to replace Panache and grace. After all, flavor-wise, the strength of a fencer is in their mobility, not their good looks/force of will/personality. Bonuses to attack of opportunity seem more an intelligence-based skill, considering Elegant Attack of Opportunity. The bonus to defensive fighting happens really late in the game. It almost seems like it's just thrown in to fill some space. I would think that would be a focus of the class, and would be present from near the beginning, or at least see some scaling. Maybe mix it in with Skirmish, or some such. Kudos on avoiding dead levels, though, and nice 20th level ability.
Athaal 08-29-07, 05:30 PM	Sorry for the late-ish reply. On regards to Elegant AoO, i thought i had routed out all the Wis and replaced them with Int; it seems I missed this. As to Narrow Profile (the defensive bonus feature) I would consider staggering that bonus and making it start earlier but I am aware that already I have Grace, Riposte, and to a lesser extent dexterous placement, duelist's panache and Elegant AoO. I personally think that having yet another staggering ability may get boring; however i do sometimes wish all these abilities would be available sooner; if you could think of a valid swap that didn't unbalance any levels, then i'll happily change class feature. Now to Skirmish. Read above about the staggering, and I like the ability. Mobility is a Duelist's best friend. Yet this with critical lunge is almost inviting the feat choice for spring attack, and if critical lunge and skirmish hit, then 2-4x damage + xd6 may be enough to slay many a foe. Also because it is almost asking for a spring attack as 10ft steps can't really be made with a change of direction, I find that this could limit feat selection. If both narrow profile and skirmish were stacked together as the same ability, would it defy logic? A Duelist on the defensive spring attacking the foes and dealing more damage? As to your response, I am glad that you like the 20th level capstone; I just need the right class features to get me there. If you could respond to what I have said then i would be grateful.
DoargonJin 08-29-07, 09:07 PM	Hmmmmmmm. As for Grace, why not just make it a Dodge AC bonus equal to your INT, but limited by 1/5th your class level? That makes it no longer stagger, and it still keeps the same flavor without just giving away AC. Cut Riposte down to four levels, 25, 50, 75, and 100, and space them over 4/8/12/16. Sure, it starts later, but it also maximizes earlier. That will leave you plenty of space to rearrange things a bit, and add in an ability like Skirmish. That skill can be every 3rd level, alternating between +1 to attack and +1d6 damage. Actually, yes, that works rather well. Erase Duelist's Panache, and give Dexterous Placement a bonus to critical confirmation (which should apply to critical lunge) attack rolls based on Intelligence instead of damage or attack. Then Skirmish can make up for that lost constant damage and then some. Speaking of, Critical Lunge should not function on things immune to critical hits. How does that sound? Personally, I'm worried about his AC. It's going to be weak. I mean... weak. Like, he's going to get pounded all the time. Alllllll the time. P.S. When speaking of males and females, the male form of the pronoun is considered to be unisexual. P.S.S. Monks blow. We don't compare to them unless we want to build a losing combination.
Raggers 08-30-07, 05:05 AM	Actually when we tested this duelist vs a monk the monk won. Every single time. A monk isn't a bad class unless you play him badly. With Weapon finnesse and 61k you can create an accurate 13 level monk with AC of 36. Also in the test the duelist had a reasonable AC (30 think at level 13) which isnt great but isnt terrible either
Athaal 08-30-07, 05:57 AM	Yes raggers but that wasn't the right charatcer I will be using. DoargonJin is right; the AC is really really low unless the player puts dedicated money into AC bonuses. I have an AC of 25 only at level 12. Which, interestingly, is the same as my touch AC...
DoargonJin 08-30-07, 11:20 AM	The long and short of it is that if the duelist is losing to a monk, he needs some serious upgrading to be done. End of story. My main worry with this Duelist is that he's amazingly flashy, and can do all sorts of cute things, but mostly to enemies that have weapons. Anyone who fights unarmed or has natural weapons immediately bypasses all sorts of tricks the Duelist has up his sleeve. I'm thinking an ability that halves the penalty of Combat Expertise (or, conversely, doubles the effect while leaving the same penalty) might be effective. Looking at it more and more, a Skirmish ability is something this Duelist has to have if he wants to compete. Let's be snazzy and call it Flèche. Flèche: Duelists must be masters of mobility to remain a dangerous target to their foes. At 1st level, and ever 4 levels thereafter, if the Duelist moves at least 10 feet before striking a foe, he gains a +1d6 bonus to his damage roll. At 3rd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Duelist gains a +1 bonus to attack and AC if he moves at least 10 feet during his turn. These benefits remain until the the beginning of his next turn. As far as Parry is concerned, perhaps I am missing something, but when is your Total Attack Bonus ever higher than your AC? It would make more sense to have it simply nullify a melee attack action by forcing it to miss. It should only be usable on creatures up to one size category larger than you. At 11th level, one use per round is not that bad, as anything that will be swinging at you probably has one or two iteratives. Alternatively, it might work better you allow you to make an immediate reaction and subtract from your BAB to improve your AC until the end of your next turn. These are just ideas, but I think they might give your Duelist survivability and quite a few "that was really badass" moments. You know what else might be awesome? Skipping Skirmish and going with Sudden Strike attack damage, and giving the Duelist bonuses to Feints (and the Improved Feint feat). Perhaps, eventually he might get a once per round Feint as free action. How's that for some dexterous placement? ;)
Athaal 08-30-07, 12:09 PM	I read your things and here is what I changed. Firstly I (again) moved around stuff to fill gaps. I removed Grace and instead added Narrow Profile as a bonus when fighting defensively; this is much weaker therefore I added more room for a big improvement. I finally added Tireless Techinique which me and Raggers came up with. It has potential and rewards fighting defensively. I quite like parry, but as to Fleche/Skirmish, sorry but I really dont want to make a mobile spring attacking Duelist. However Tireless Technique is similar, granting a bonus if the right condition is met. I just changed the condition. However, Parry, as you would appear to be stating, is able to negate all damage from one attack/ round. I don't know if you have the Epic level Handbook, but Epic Dodge does the exact same thing. And thats Epic. Sure the only difference is the limit in size, but effectively the charatcer gets an epic feat at level 11.
DoargonJin 08-30-07, 01:47 PM	If you say so. Perfect Combat Expertise is poorly worded. It reads in a way that gives a +8 bonus to AC for fighting defensively. It also should have no effect on total defense, as you lose no AC. Leaving it a 2:1 with the Combat Expertise feat is just fine. Also, if you're going to do that, you should give Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, or reword it so it doesn't require usage of the feat itself. And I still have no idea how Parry works. Your Total AB is never going to be as high as your AC.
Vharuck 08-30-07, 03:15 PM	I'm sure everyone else is picking on the class abilities and special tricks, so I'm gonna pick at the other stuff that's often overlooked as well. You may call it nitpicking, but I think these things have a larger impact than most acknowledge. It may not be sheer statistical power, but a more clearly defined role helps in character creation and prevents the other players from feeling that you're elbowing into their limelight. I will be comparing this class to the fighter, the monk, and the rogue. My comments will be in red type. Duelist The traditional style duelist is not a dmg soaker, not a specific dmg dealer, but a kind of fighter with wit and panache. I like the idea of a duelist with a one handed weapon in one hand and thats it. Rapiers FTW. HD = d8 Alright, one step below Fighter and the standard HD of a mobile or semi-frontline combat class. Good. Skill Points = 4 + INT (x 4 at lvl 1) 2 more than the fighter, but 4 is about average so I can't count it against or for the class. Class Skills = Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex). And now we disagree. Balance, Intimidate, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble fit. The art of dueling utilizes these skills, even if only requiring a minor talent, so learning them is simpler for the duelist. Hence, class skills. Hide doesn't make sense by itself (a duelist is not one to ambush, and Move Silently only works because duelists must be light on their feet), but I don't think there's a single class with Move Silently but not Hide, so I'd keep the pair. However, just because a class favors a high score in Dexterity does not mean that it should have a lot of class skills that get a Dexterity bonus. Escape Artist and Use Rope don't really fit into any idea I have of a duelist. Their nimbleness may help them escape bondage or tie secure knots, but learning how to duel and participate in royal courts is not in any way helpful in learning these skills. I'd take these two off the class list. I believe (I don't wish to put words in your mouth) that you included Bluff and Diplomacy to showcase the Duelist as a nobleman archetype. Also, Ride could be explained with the noble upbringing. This makes sense. A fighter has low entry barriers, since anyone focusing on fighting or joining the army could take a fighter level. But learning how to duel requires specific, well-trained instructors that are expensive, and the idea of duels is noble. Thugs beat one another senseless; gentleman square off in honorable combat. So why Gather Information, Listen, Search, and Spot? These are, in my opinion, skills for the low-class urban and wild classes (rogue, ranger, barbarian, etc). I don't see how duelist training improves your senses (ok, maybe Spot in noticing blows so that you can parry). And I certainly don't understand how it could improve your ability to gather rumors. I might keep Spot, but I'd suggest the other three go. Level | B A B | Fort | Ref | Will | Special 1st 1 0 2 0 Weapon Finesse 2nd 2 0 3 0 Uncanny Dodge 3rd 3 1 3 1 Dexterous Placement 4th 4 1 4 1 Riposte 25% 5th 5 1 4 1 Reflexive Fortune 1/day, Narrow Profile +1 6th 6/1 2 5 2 Duelist's Panache 7th 7/2 2 5 2 Deflect Arrows Feat, Tireless Technique (2nd Attack) 8th 8/3 2 6 2 Perfect Combat Expertise, Riposte 50% 9th 9/4 3 6 3 Disarming Flourish 10th 10/5 3 7 3 Narrow Profile +2 11th 11/6/1 3 7 3 Parry 12th 12/7/2 4 8 4 Reflexive Fortune 2/day, Riposte 75%, Tireless Technique (3rd Attack) 13th 13/8/3 4 8 4 Improved Uncanny Dodge 14th 14/9/4 4 9 4 Flurry of Deflection 15th 15/10/5 5 9 5 Narrow Profile +3 16th 16/11/6/1 5 10 5 Riposte 100% 17th 17/12/7/2 5 10 5 Tireless Technique (4th Attack) 18th 18/13/8/3 6 11 6 Elegant Attack of Opportunity 19th 19/14/9/4 6 11 6 Reflexive Fortune 3/day 20th 20/15/10/5 6 12 6 Of Poise and Finesse, Narrow Profile +4 Weapon and Armor Proficiency A Duelist is proficient with all Simple and Light Martial Melee weapons. The Duelist is also proficient with all non-exotic finessable weapons. "All non-exotic finessable weapons" is just the rapier. Unless some book introduced new martial one-handed finessable weapons, but I can't think of any. Also, state that duelists are not proficient with any armor. It may seem dumb to say that when they aren't getting anything, but it makes sure people don't think you just accidentally forgot to write down the armor proficiencies. Duelist Class Skills, Armour and Shields A Duelist is not able to use any class skills available to the character when any type of armor or shield is worn. Having proficiency with the armor or shield does not change this. Duelist Class Skills and the Off-hand A Duelist is never allowed any weapon or item to be carried in his/her Off-hand whilst using any class skills. Using any weapon or carrying any item in the Off-hand whilst using class skills prevents them from being executed correctly, and so they automatically fail, miss and provoke attacks of opportunity. For this and the entry above it, don't call them "class skills." That term is already used. I'd call them special abilities. This is just to prevent confusion. Weapon Finesse As the Feat, PHB page 102. Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue ability of the same name. See PHB page 50. Dexterous Placement At level 3, a Duelist adds his/her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls, instead of Strength, to a maximum of +1/2 levels. This can only be applied to Finessable weapons. Riposte While the Duelist is fighting defensively, when an opponent misses the character with a melee attack, there is a percentage chance that the Duelist is able to retaliate and return with an Attack of Opportunity. At level 4 and every four levels thereafter the percentage chance for a Riposte increases by 25% (25% at level 4, 50% at level 8, up to 100% at level 16). Riposte cannot be used more than once a round per opponent (with the Combat Reflexes feat). I feel that I know what this does, but that parenthetical throws me off. If the Combat Reflexes feat does not affect this ability, then don't mention it. The way it's worded, if you have the feat you may only use this ability once per round, but if you don't have the feat this limit does not apply to you. Reflexive Fortune Once a day at level 5, and once more per day every 7 levels thereafter (2/day at level 13, 3/day at level 20), as an immediate action the Duelist can choose to take a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude or Will save. The DC doesn't change and a failed attempt uses up the use/day, and causes the character to suffer the ill effects. I don't get it. I mean, mechanically, it's simple, but how does being lithe help when a disentegrate ray hits you? Or when attempting to disbelieve an illusion? How would you describe what your character's doing? Narrow Profile At level 5, and every 5 levels thereafter (10, 15, 20) the Duelist adds +1 to his/her AC whilst fighting defensively. This is culminative (+1 at level 5, +2 total at level 10). This extra bonus is under the Miscellaneous Modifier to AC. For clarity and the fact that there's no such thing as "miscellaneous bonus" but just unnamed ones, rewrite as: Narrow Profile At level 5 the Duelist adds +1 per 5 levels (+1 at 5, +2 at 10, etc) to his/her AC whilst fighting defensively. Duelist's Panache The Duelist adds his/her Charisma modifier aswell as his/her Dexterity modifier to attack rolls, to a maximum of +1/2 levels in Duelist, rounded down. This can only apply to Finessable weapons. Seems rather good. Two ability bonuses can really boost attack, but probably not by much with Charisma. Also, I'd throw in the part about the maximum bonus before mentioning the Dex bonus, so as not to make it seem that the two bonuses added together could not exceed 1/2 level (unless you intended it that way, in which case please explicitly state that). Deflect Arrows Feat As feat, PHB page 93. Tireless Technique At level 7 and every 5 levels thereafter (12, 17), if the Duelist has been fighting defensively for 1 round, every other attack made in a full attack whilst fighting defensively gains a +5 competance bonus to BAB to a maximum of full BAB. Therefore at level 12, where 3 attacks can be made, after 1 round of fighting defensively, the character's BAB is 12/12/7 instead of 12/7/2. On round 3 where the character has been fighting defensively for 2 rounds beforehand, the BAB will be 12/12/12. At level 17 this extends to the 4th attack. This is simply poorly worded. Might I offer this rewrite? Tireless Technique At level 7 the duelist learns to combine his honed endurance with complex attack combinations to make more accurate strikes as he continues. If the duelist makes a full attack while fighting defensively and also fought defensively in the previous round, all of his attacks past the first receive a +5 to base attack bonus (this can not raise any attack's base attack bonus higher than normal). For every 5 levels past 7, the duelist may continue to use this ability for an additional round as long as he continues to make a full attack while fighting defensively. So, a 7th level duelist could fight defensively one round and make a full attack at +7/+7 base attack bonus while fighting defensively the next. A 12th level duelist could fight defensively in the first round (as well as the subsequent two), make a full attack at +12/+12/+7 in the second round, and then make a full attack at +12/+12/+12 in the third. Disarming Flourish If the Duelist makes a full attack against a single target, then he/she may make a free disarm attempt. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A failed disarm suffers no ill effects for the Duelist (eg if the character fails, the foe cannot make a disarm attempt against the character). Perfect Combat Expertise For each -1 to attack bonus through use of fighting defensively, using the total defense action or combat expertise, the character adds +2 to AC instead of the usual +1. I'm now starting to get worried about the AC a duelist would have, since this is the second ability increasing the armor bonus granted by Combat Expertise. Parry A Duelist at level 11 can once a round choose to use his/her Total Attack Bonus instead of AC to block an attack. If the attack is blocked then there is the usual chance that a Riposte can be made. The total attack bonus? This will be far lower than the regular AC, since AC has a base of 10. I think you mean something more like, "Once per round, a duelist may substitute an attack roll at full base attack bonus for his AC for a single attack." Improved Uncanny Dodge As the Rogue ability of the same name. See PHB page 50. Flurry of Deflection At 14th level, in addition to the one arrow the Duelist can deflect each round he/she may continue to deflect ranged attacks until his/her reflexes run out. For each ranged attack targeting the character beyond the first in a round roll a Reflex save against the attack roll of the opponent. Magical attacks add +2 to the DC. For each ranged attack beyond the second you wish to deflect add +2 more to the DC. Rays cannot be deflected. First off, this seems powerful. Saves are usually good, this is your best save, and subsequent arrows only apply a +2 bonus to the DC while the archer usually suffers a -5 penalty for each. That's a bit of difference. I would say ranged attacks beyond the first get a +5 bonus to DC. Elegant Attack of Opportunity Whenever the character would be allowed an attack of opportunity on any foe, he/she gains a bonus on his/her attack roll equal to his/her Intelligence modifier, maximum +1/4 levels in the Duelist class. Of Poise and Finesse The critical threat range and multiplier increases by one for a single weapon of the Duelist's choice that he/she is proficient in (19-20 -> 18-20, x3 -> x4). Additionally, the Duelist now counts one size smaller for melee purposes. Does this stack with any other method of improving critical threat ranges or critical modifiers? It shouldn't. Also, "now counts [as] one size smaller for melee purposes" is far too open-ended. I assume you meant for the size bonus to AC and attack. However, do you also mean for grapple, bullrush, weapon damage, reach (which would suck since then normally small duelists have 0' reach and must enter a creature's square to attack it in melee), attacks of opportunity (tiny and smaller creatures can't make them against a creature moving through adjacent squares), flanking, etc?
Athaal 08-30-07, 04:27 PM	Ok thanks to both of you for replying. Firstly, DoargonJin if you could read Vharuck's rewording of Parry, it may help. On the whole as you might have noticed, I am not great with wording. Parry A Duelist at level 11 can once a round choose to use his/her Total Attack Bonus instead of AC to block an attack. If the attack is blocked then there is the usual chance that a Riposte can be made. The total attack bonus? This will be far lower than the regular AC, since AC has a base of 10. I think you mean something more like, "Once per round, a duelist may substitute an attack roll at full base attack bonus for his AC for a single attack." By the way thats exactly what I mean but I will from now on by default use your rewordings. ok now Vharuck; I as a general rule put in as class skills the ones that revolve around the one or two main feats. I find that this almost gives the reader a 'heads up' as to what to assign in the class abilities. Perhaps Use Rope, Search, Listen etc aren't appropriate. I'll await your response and change accordingly. With the non-exotic Finessable weapons problem, I feel you are right. When reviewing Weapon Finesse, I thought that the whip (and spiked chain) were martial. You could argue that the list is so small anyway that I might aswell write it. I'll change it after. I'll also add in the (lack of) armor proficiencies. About Riposte; the wording was trying to imply that it may be used each round once against each foe that provokes the Riposte. Of course without combat reflexes only one AoO would be possible, but with combat reflexes more can be made, but only once per opponent/round. With Reflexive Fortune I agree it can be stretching reasoning by wondering how a Duelist can 'dodge' an injested poison and the like. It can mainly be described for those other saves that are dodgeable. An example might be the MindFlayer's Mind Blast. However if it only worked for that small majority of saves then it would be a poor ability. I expanded it to all saves; it may seem illogical however. The reason I put Miscellaneous Modifier for Narrow Profile was because on the AC part of the 3.5 character sheet there is a space for Miscellaneous Modifiers. I shall change the wording. With Duelist's Panache I thank you for routing out that grammatical error. The limit of +1/2 levels applies only for Charisma. Not Dexterity. I'll take the rewrite for Tireless Technique. Thank you again for the error in Disarming Flourish; I forgot that you could make ful attacks against some other creature then disarm the boss or whatever. As to the AC of the Duelist, I find that my currently level 10 character has 23 AC when not fighting defensively, but has minimum of 23 + 2 (narrow profile) + 3 (tumble for fighting defensively) + 8 (perfect combat expertise) = 36 AC. Ofc Parry is what you said. Flurry of Deflection; Remember when thinking about this skill that not only will one fo be taking a -5 to the next attack roll, but other foes will be attacking with full AB. Therefore I see the -2 as a sort of balance. I originally placed the final Of Poise and Finesse skill for both negative and positive benefits, namely disarming grappling and AB and AC. However I did not think the features extended so far as to include reach, AoO and stuff like that. The way you put it, I see the final thing almost as a negative thing. I will state what isnt counted. I would like to say, Vharuk and DoargonJin, thank you for your input it gives me that 3rd perspective on the class and I really appreciate your time and effort.