Bear Warrior and changing into bear-form (Questions) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bear Warrior and changing into bear-form (Questions) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Babs
11-04-04, 10:37 AM Okay, I'm planning to play a bear-warrior. But I do not fully understand the bear-transform part and also in the Example Bear Warrior given in the Complete Warrior it seems that lots of errors have been made so let's try to build one on our own.

So let's assume we are a Human Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5 with the elite stat array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. At level 12 we have the following stats (arranged as desired, racial abilities added/substracted and the 3 extra ability points):

Str 18
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

Assume we rolled average hit points: 12 x 6.5 = 78 + 24 (from con) for a total of 102 hp. As barbarian 7 we have the following abilities:

Fast Movement(Ex),
Illiteracy,
Rage (Ex) 2/day,
Improved uncanny dodge(Ex),
Trap Sense +2(Ex),
Damage Reduction 1/- (Ex)

and from bear warrior 5 we gain:

Bear form (black or brown) 2/day?
Scent (Ex)

We may choose 6 feats since we're 12th level and human:

Power attack (prereq BW)
5 other feats

And 5 x 10 skill points for barbarian, and 5 x 5 skill points for Bear warrior

15 ranks in: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21.

Let's assume our hero has a chain shirt +2, a greataxe +2, Belt of Con +2 and Gauntlets of Ogre strenght +4:

Belt of con +2 adds an extra +12 hp for 114 hp

So in normal human form we have:

OUR Hero: Human Barbarian 7/bear warrior 5; CR 12; 114 hp; Init +5;
Spd 40 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 from Chain Shirt); touch 11; flat-footed 16;
Bab +12; Grp +18; Atk +20 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); Full atk +20/+15/+10 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe);
SQ Bear form 2/day, DR 1/-, improved uncanny dodge, rage 2/day, scent, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge;
AL CN; SV Fort +12; Refl +4; Will +4; Str 22; Dex 13; Con 16; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21; Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Track, Improved Initiative, Dodge.

Now if we go into brown bear form what happens exactly:

A) we gain +16 bonus to Strenght, +2 to Dex and +8 to Con.
B) We get 2 claw attacks with 1x Str and one bite attack at -5 wit 0.5x Str.
C) We gain large size, space (10 ft.) and 5 ft. reach
D) We gain it's movement speed: 40 ft.
E) we gain it's natural armor (+5)
F) And we gain the SQ namely: Improved Grapple
G) You're type changes from humanoid to animal

But what do we loose? and these are questions I can't find the answers
1)Is the belt of Con +2 and the Gauntlets of Str +4 still active?
2)Is my attack magical ie can I add the +2 from my greataxe to attack and damage and is my attack considered magical for overcoming DR?
3) Do I retain my Extraordaniry abilities as I'm in bear form?
4) Do I retain my Magic +2 Chain Shirt ???
5) Can I still use my feats??
6) Does the bear-form counts as a rage attempte ie can I Bear-form twice a day and rage 2/day??

Also if you note other errors please feel free to discuss them.

Editted: changed the numbers from the changes to letters to distinct them from the numbered questions. Added change G). Corrected the fact that i started out with a half-orc and used human later on. Also changed the Gauntlets from +2 to +4 for the single purpose of to not recount every Strenght based modifier.
The Legendary Two Sandals
11-04-04, 12:11 PM all these questions and more can be anwsered by reading the description of ploymorp or shapechange.(it will say in description)
Babs
11-04-04, 12:37 PM all these questions and more can be anwsered by reading the description of ploymorp or shapechange.(it will say in description)

Well, then help me. According to the text in the PHB it works very much like Polymorph, but polymorph does not states any of these things:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

But, ah, the Alter Self spell shines some light!

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

So the answers will be:

1) Yes, in bear-form you can still use your belt and gauntlets
2) No, the Greataxe becomes nonfunctional
3) Yes, the Description does not explicitly mentions you loos them so you still have you're DR 1/- and the improved uncanny dodge etc.
4) No, the chain shirt becomes non-functional
5) Yes you can still use your feats
6) I still dont know

Correct????
Gutzu
11-04-04, 03:39 PM Ok you want five other feats for a Barbarian? You already have power attack so the first two would be cleave and greater cleave. Now three more I would say Endurance and Die Hard (they in the PHB under feats if you don't know what the do) and I would say Instantainious Rage (it's in the Complete Warrior Handbook) for the last. If memory sevres me (sometimes it don't) you have to be in a rage to do the whole bear form.
Babs
11-04-04, 04:00 PM Ok you want five other feats for a Barbarian? You already have power attack so the first two would be cleave and greater cleave. Now three more I would say Endurance and Die Hard (they in the PHB under feats if you don't know what the do) and I would say Instantainious Rage (it's in the Complete Warrior Handbook) for the last. If memory sevres me (sometimes it don't) you have to be in a rage to do the whole bear form.

I'm not interested in the feats. But thanks anyway. I do however wonder if I got the mechanics for bear-form right.
Gutzu
11-04-04, 07:11 PM I don't know for sure, I only read the template to the Bear Warrior once or twice and I don't have the book right now. It belong to a friend and I was just try to remember what it said.
hat
12-08-04, 08:26 PM Okay, I'm planning to play a bear-warrior. But I do not fully understand the bear-transform part and also in the Example Bear Warrior given in the Complete Warrior it seems that lots of errors have been made so let's try to build one on our own.

So let's assume we are a Human Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5 with the elite stat array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. At level 12 we have the following stats (arranged as desired, racial abilities added/substracted and the 3 extra ability points):

Str 18
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

Assume we rolled average hit points: 12 x 6.5 = 78 + 24 (from con) for a total of 102 hp. As barbarian 7 we have the following abilities:

Fast Movement(Ex),
Illiteracy,
Rage (Ex) 2/day,
Improved uncanny dodge(Ex),
Trap Sense +2(Ex),
Damage Reduction 1/- (Ex)

and from bear warrior 5 we gain:

Bear form (black or brown) 2/day?
Scent (Ex)

We may choose 6 feats since we're 12th level and human:

Power attack (prereq BW)
5 other feats

And 5 x 10 skill points for barbarian, and 5 x 5 skill points for Bear warrior

15 ranks in: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21.

Let's assume our hero has a chain shirt +2, a greataxe +2, Belt of Con +2 and Gauntlets of Ogre strenght +4:

Belt of con +2 adds an extra +12 hp for 114 hp

So in normal human form we have:

OUR Hero: Human Barbarian 7/bear warrior 5; CR 12; 114 hp; Init +5;
Spd 40 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 from Chain Shirt); touch 11; flat-footed 16;
Bab +12; Grp +18; Atk +20 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); Full atk +20/+15/+10 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe);
SQ Bear form 2/day, DR 1/-, improved uncanny dodge, rage 2/day, scent, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge;
AL CN; SV Fort +12; Refl +4; Will +4; Str 22; Dex 13; Con 16; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21; Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Track, Improved Initiative, Dodge.

Now if we go into brown bear form what happens exactly:

A) we gain +16 bonus to Strenght, +2 to Dex and +8 to Con.
B) We get 2 claw attacks with 1x Str and one bite attack at -5 wit 0.5x Str.
C) We gain large size, space (10 ft.) and 5 ft. reach
D) We gain it's movement speed: 40 ft.
E) we gain it's natural armor (+5)
F) And we gain the SQ namely: Improved Grapple
G) You're type changes from humanoid to animal

But what do we loose? and these are questions I can't find the answers
1)Is the belt of Con +2 and the Gauntlets of Str +4 still active?
2)Is my attack magical ie can I add the +2 from my greataxe to attack and damage and is my attack considered magical for overcoming DR?
3) Do I retain my Extraordaniry abilities as I'm in bear form?
4) Do I retain my Magic +2 Chain Shirt ???
5) Can I still use my feats??
6) Does the bear-form counts as a rage attempte ie can I Bear-form twice a day and rage 2/day??

Also if you note other errors please feel free to discuss them.

Editted: changed the numbers from the changes to letters to distinct them from the numbered questions. Added change G). Corrected the fact that i started out with a half-orc and used human later on. Also changed the Gauntlets from +2 to +4 for the single purpose of to not recount every Strenght based modifier.

The book is incorrect, the amount of times you rage is the amount of times you can become a bear. Ignore the wording as to number of times per day.

Now where did I read that?...errata or something I think.

I'm positive that changing into a bear counts as your rage and the abilities provided by the bear form supercede your rage abilities.
Zsasz_Diedne
12-09-04, 05:09 PM I haven't seen errata on this, but as I answered in a similar thread, as the description is worded, no, bear transformations do not count as uses of rage, you can transform while raging, so the two have seperate uses a day, but one is limited by the other.
hat
12-09-04, 05:20 PM I haven't seen errata on this, but as I answered in a similar thread, as the description is worded, no, bear transformations do not count as uses of rage, you can transform while raging, so the two have seperate uses a day, but one is limited by the other.

I'm very sure you are wrong. Although you may have misunderstood what I said above, for the sake of clarity let me restate my position:

1 When raging you have the ability to take on bear form.

2 The amount of times you can take on bear form is limited by the amount of times you can rage (this is conceptually obvious...see point one).

You cannot take a bear form independently of your rage. However, you can rage without taking bear form.

Ignore the wording as to uses per day, that was a straight copy from OA and is a mistake. I have a print out of an official answer from these boards somewhere. I will look for it and try to post it this weekend.
Faragon
12-09-04, 05:29 PM Hat, you and Zsasz are basically saying the same thing :)

Also, you're both right :D
Axle_Steelcat
12-09-04, 05:32 PM However, the bonuses stack.

Edit: I'll reread it when I get home - I don't have CW in PDF with me, atm.
Ancient Wyrm
12-09-04, 05:36 PM The book would appear to contradict itself, saying both "His only limit on the number of times per day he can assume bear form is the number of times he enters a rage..." and "Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear once per day." However, I'm going to get semantic here and say that the second quote, read as written, is still true even if the first one is; it doesn't say he can only enter bear form once per day, does it? :D

More seriously, just a general reading of the ability leads me to believe that it's intended to simply replace the rage; therefore, the first quote makes sense. I'm also inclined to believe in the first quote because the old bear warrior in Oriental Adventures did have a daily limit; it seems more likely to me that the authors updated the ability, but not completely, than that they introduced a new line of text, and changed the table to be consistent with this text, without intending to do so.

EDIT I: Read their posts again, Faragon. They are contradicting each other.

EDIT II: And what bonuses are we talking about here, Axle? It specifically says that the Str/Con bonuses from rage are replaced by those of bear form; this is what led me to believe that it was intended to completely replace the rage ability.
hat
12-09-04, 05:54 PM The book would appear to contradict itself, saying both "His only limit on the number of times per day he can assume bear form is the number of times he enters a rage..." and "Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear once per day." However, I'm going to get semantic here and say that the second quote, read as written, is still true even if the first one is; it doesn't say he can only enter bear form once per day, does it? :D

More seriously, just a general reading of the ability leads me to believe that it's intended to simply replace the rage; therefore, the first quote makes sense. I'm also inclined to believe in the first quote because the old bear warrior in Oriental Adventures did have a daily limit; it seems more likely to me that the authors updated the ability, but not completely, than that they introduced a new line of text, and changed the table to be consistent with this text, without intending to do so.

EDIT I: Read their posts again, Faragon. They are contradicting each other.

EDIT II: And what bonuses are we talking about here, Axle? It specifically says that the Str/Con bonuses from rage are replaced by those of bear form; this is what led me to believe that it was intended to completely replace the rage ability.

That's how I see and read it, bear form abilities replace rage abilities...they do not stack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Babs 11-04-04, 10:37 AM	Okay, I'm planning to play a bear-warrior. But I do not fully understand the bear-transform part and also in the Example Bear Warrior given in the Complete Warrior it seems that lots of errors have been made so let's try to build one on our own. So let's assume we are a Human Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5 with the elite stat array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. At level 12 we have the following stats (arranged as desired, racial abilities added/substracted and the 3 extra ability points): Str 18 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Assume we rolled average hit points: 12 x 6.5 = 78 + 24 (from con) for a total of 102 hp. As barbarian 7 we have the following abilities: Fast Movement(Ex), Illiteracy, Rage (Ex) 2/day, Improved uncanny dodge(Ex), Trap Sense +2(Ex), Damage Reduction 1/- (Ex) and from bear warrior 5 we gain: Bear form (black or brown) 2/day? Scent (Ex) We may choose 6 feats since we're 12th level and human: Power attack (prereq BW) 5 other feats And 5 x 10 skill points for barbarian, and 5 x 5 skill points for Bear warrior 15 ranks in: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21. Let's assume our hero has a chain shirt +2, a greataxe +2, Belt of Con +2 and Gauntlets of Ogre strenght +4: Belt of con +2 adds an extra +12 hp for 114 hp So in normal human form we have: OUR Hero: Human Barbarian 7/bear warrior 5; CR 12; 114 hp; Init +5; Spd 40 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 from Chain Shirt); touch 11; flat-footed 16; Bab +12; Grp +18; Atk +20 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); Full atk +20/+15/+10 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); SQ Bear form 2/day, DR 1/-, improved uncanny dodge, rage 2/day, scent, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; AL CN; SV Fort +12; Refl +4; Will +4; Str 22; Dex 13; Con 16; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21; Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Track, Improved Initiative, Dodge. Now if we go into brown bear form what happens exactly: A) we gain +16 bonus to Strenght, +2 to Dex and +8 to Con. B) We get 2 claw attacks with 1x Str and one bite attack at -5 wit 0.5x Str. C) We gain large size, space (10 ft.) and 5 ft. reach D) We gain it's movement speed: 40 ft. E) we gain it's natural armor (+5) F) And we gain the SQ namely: Improved Grapple G) You're type changes from humanoid to animal But what do we loose? and these are questions I can't find the answers 1)Is the belt of Con +2 and the Gauntlets of Str +4 still active? 2)Is my attack magical ie can I add the +2 from my greataxe to attack and damage and is my attack considered magical for overcoming DR? 3) Do I retain my Extraordaniry abilities as I'm in bear form? 4) Do I retain my Magic +2 Chain Shirt ??? 5) Can I still use my feats?? 6) Does the bear-form counts as a rage attempte ie can I Bear-form twice a day and rage 2/day?? Also if you note other errors please feel free to discuss them. Editted: changed the numbers from the changes to letters to distinct them from the numbered questions. Added change G). Corrected the fact that i started out with a half-orc and used human later on. Also changed the Gauntlets from +2 to +4 for the single purpose of to not recount every Strenght based modifier.
The Legendary Two Sandals 11-04-04, 12:11 PM	all these questions and more can be anwsered by reading the description of ploymorp or shapechange.(it will say in description)
Babs 11-04-04, 12:37 PM	all these questions and more can be anwsered by reading the description of ploymorp or shapechange.(it will say in description) Well, then help me. According to the text in the PHB it works very much like Polymorph, but polymorph does not states any of these things: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. But, ah, the Alter Self spell shines some light! You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. So the answers will be: 1) Yes, in bear-form you can still use your belt and gauntlets 2) No, the Greataxe becomes nonfunctional 3) Yes, the Description does not explicitly mentions you loos them so you still have you're DR 1/- and the improved uncanny dodge etc. 4) No, the chain shirt becomes non-functional 5) Yes you can still use your feats 6) I still dont know Correct????
Gutzu 11-04-04, 03:39 PM	Ok you want five other feats for a Barbarian? You already have power attack so the first two would be cleave and greater cleave. Now three more I would say Endurance and Die Hard (they in the PHB under feats if you don't know what the do) and I would say Instantainious Rage (it's in the Complete Warrior Handbook) for the last. If memory sevres me (sometimes it don't) you have to be in a rage to do the whole bear form.
Babs 11-04-04, 04:00 PM	Ok you want five other feats for a Barbarian? You already have power attack so the first two would be cleave and greater cleave. Now three more I would say Endurance and Die Hard (they in the PHB under feats if you don't know what the do) and I would say Instantainious Rage (it's in the Complete Warrior Handbook) for the last. If memory sevres me (sometimes it don't) you have to be in a rage to do the whole bear form. I'm not interested in the feats. But thanks anyway. I do however wonder if I got the mechanics for bear-form right.
Gutzu 11-04-04, 07:11 PM	I don't know for sure, I only read the template to the Bear Warrior once or twice and I don't have the book right now. It belong to a friend and I was just try to remember what it said.
hat 12-08-04, 08:26 PM	Okay, I'm planning to play a bear-warrior. But I do not fully understand the bear-transform part and also in the Example Bear Warrior given in the Complete Warrior it seems that lots of errors have been made so let's try to build one on our own. So let's assume we are a Human Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 5 with the elite stat array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. At level 12 we have the following stats (arranged as desired, racial abilities added/substracted and the 3 extra ability points): Str 18 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Assume we rolled average hit points: 12 x 6.5 = 78 + 24 (from con) for a total of 102 hp. As barbarian 7 we have the following abilities: Fast Movement(Ex), Illiteracy, Rage (Ex) 2/day, Improved uncanny dodge(Ex), Trap Sense +2(Ex), Damage Reduction 1/- (Ex) and from bear warrior 5 we gain: Bear form (black or brown) 2/day? Scent (Ex) We may choose 6 feats since we're 12th level and human: Power attack (prereq BW) 5 other feats And 5 x 10 skill points for barbarian, and 5 x 5 skill points for Bear warrior 15 ranks in: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21. Let's assume our hero has a chain shirt +2, a greataxe +2, Belt of Con +2 and Gauntlets of Ogre strenght +4: Belt of con +2 adds an extra +12 hp for 114 hp So in normal human form we have: OUR Hero: Human Barbarian 7/bear warrior 5; CR 12; 114 hp; Init +5; Spd 40 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 from Chain Shirt); touch 11; flat-footed 16; Bab +12; Grp +18; Atk +20 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); Full atk +20/+15/+10 (1d12+11/x3, +2 greataxe); SQ Bear form 2/day, DR 1/-, improved uncanny dodge, rage 2/day, scent, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge; AL CN; SV Fort +12; Refl +4; Will +4; Str 22; Dex 13; Con 16; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Climb +21, Intimidate +14, Jump +21, Survival +16, Swim +21; Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Track, Improved Initiative, Dodge. Now if we go into brown bear form what happens exactly: A) we gain +16 bonus to Strenght, +2 to Dex and +8 to Con. B) We get 2 claw attacks with 1x Str and one bite attack at -5 wit 0.5x Str. C) We gain large size, space (10 ft.) and 5 ft. reach D) We gain it's movement speed: 40 ft. E) we gain it's natural armor (+5) F) And we gain the SQ namely: Improved Grapple G) You're type changes from humanoid to animal But what do we loose? and these are questions I can't find the answers 1)Is the belt of Con +2 and the Gauntlets of Str +4 still active? 2)Is my attack magical ie can I add the +2 from my greataxe to attack and damage and is my attack considered magical for overcoming DR? 3) Do I retain my Extraordaniry abilities as I'm in bear form? 4) Do I retain my Magic +2 Chain Shirt ??? 5) Can I still use my feats?? 6) Does the bear-form counts as a rage attempte ie can I Bear-form twice a day and rage 2/day?? Also if you note other errors please feel free to discuss them. Editted: changed the numbers from the changes to letters to distinct them from the numbered questions. Added change G). Corrected the fact that i started out with a half-orc and used human later on. Also changed the Gauntlets from +2 to +4 for the single purpose of to not recount every Strenght based modifier. The book is incorrect, the amount of times you rage is the amount of times you can become a bear. Ignore the wording as to number of times per day. Now where did I read that?...errata or something I think. I'm positive that changing into a bear counts as your rage and the abilities provided by the bear form supercede your rage abilities.
Zsasz_Diedne 12-09-04, 05:09 PM	I haven't seen errata on this, but as I answered in a similar thread, as the description is worded, no, bear transformations do not count as uses of rage, you can transform while raging, so the two have seperate uses a day, but one is limited by the other.
hat 12-09-04, 05:20 PM	I haven't seen errata on this, but as I answered in a similar thread, as the description is worded, no, bear transformations do not count as uses of rage, you can transform while raging, so the two have seperate uses a day, but one is limited by the other. I'm very sure you are wrong. Although you may have misunderstood what I said above, for the sake of clarity let me restate my position: 1 When raging you have the ability to take on bear form. 2 The amount of times you can take on bear form is limited by the amount of times you can rage (this is conceptually obvious...see point one). You cannot take a bear form independently of your rage. However, you can rage without taking bear form. Ignore the wording as to uses per day, that was a straight copy from OA and is a mistake. I have a print out of an official answer from these boards somewhere. I will look for it and try to post it this weekend.
Faragon 12-09-04, 05:29 PM	Hat, you and Zsasz are basically saying the same thing :) Also, you're both right :D
Axle_Steelcat 12-09-04, 05:32 PM	However, the bonuses stack. Edit: I'll reread it when I get home - I don't have CW in PDF with me, atm.
Ancient Wyrm 12-09-04, 05:36 PM	The book would appear to contradict itself, saying both "His only limit on the number of times per day he can assume bear form is the number of times he enters a rage..." and "Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear once per day." However, I'm going to get semantic here and say that the second quote, read as written, is still true even if the first one is; it doesn't say he can only enter bear form once per day, does it? :D More seriously, just a general reading of the ability leads me to believe that it's intended to simply replace the rage; therefore, the first quote makes sense. I'm also inclined to believe in the first quote because the old bear warrior in Oriental Adventures did have a daily limit; it seems more likely to me that the authors updated the ability, but not completely, than that they introduced a new line of text, and changed the table to be consistent with this text, without intending to do so. EDIT I: Read their posts again, Faragon. They are contradicting each other. EDIT II: And what bonuses are we talking about here, Axle? It specifically says that the Str/Con bonuses from rage are replaced by those of bear form; this is what led me to believe that it was intended to completely replace the rage ability.
hat 12-09-04, 05:54 PM	The book would appear to contradict itself, saying both "His only limit on the number of times per day he can assume bear form is the number of times he enters a rage..." and "Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear once per day." However, I'm going to get semantic here and say that the second quote, read as written, is still true even if the first one is; it doesn't say he can only enter bear form once per day, does it? :D More seriously, just a general reading of the ability leads me to believe that it's intended to simply replace the rage; therefore, the first quote makes sense. I'm also inclined to believe in the first quote because the old bear warrior in Oriental Adventures did have a daily limit; it seems more likely to me that the authors updated the ability, but not completely, than that they introduced a new line of text, and changed the table to be consistent with this text, without intending to do so. EDIT I: Read their posts again, Faragon. They are contradicting each other. EDIT II: And what bonuses are we talking about here, Axle? It specifically says that the Str/Con bonuses from rage are replaced by those of bear form; this is what led me to believe that it was intended to completely replace the rage ability. That's how I see and read it, bear form abilities replace rage abilities...they do not stack.