Becoming a Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Becoming a Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endwyn
06-19-06, 02:50 PM Ok, I know there is some process by which you can become a dragon. I thought it was in the Draconomicon; but I flipped through it and didn't see what I was looking for. Anyone know what this is called and which book it's in?
Bladegeek
06-19-06, 03:47 PM Sure hatch from a dragon egg. :)
Endwyn
06-19-06, 04:06 PM I know, D&D has become so complex and contrived - with a way to accomplish any goal, no matter how difficult in specificly outlined game mechanics.

I'd personally go with the just hatch from a dragon's egg approach too...but the GM has introduced this into our game world and I'd like to look over what it is / does.
obrysii
06-19-06, 04:20 PM Ritual of Transformation or Shapechange.
snowlynx
06-19-06, 04:28 PM Savage species has a listing of different ways one can become a monster, including one suggestion of using the Wish spell.

Here, more suggestions that aren't quite true dragon:
The Master of Many forms class (complete adventurer) eventually gets to use wildshape to be a dragon.
The Dragon Disciple Class from the DMG lets you be a half-dragon, which is type dragon.
I bet there's stuff in Races of the Dragon, but I haven't had a chance to look over it yet.
K
06-19-06, 04:32 PM What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do.

Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities.

Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level).

So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual.
obrysii
06-19-06, 04:39 PM What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do.

Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities.

Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level).

So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual.

Eh?
Why can't you gain XP anymore?
Endwyn
06-19-06, 04:46 PM I think what he is saying is that you are 13th level with 6 extra hit dice; but you are considered to be 23rd level when calculating XP awards. So it would be like saying that a 1st level character would have to fight a 11th level encounter to gain their "normal award".

He's really saying it becomes too hard to continue to gain XP. (Although not impossible.)
paradox1995
06-19-06, 05:05 PM check the book races of the dragon... I think there is something in there about becoming a dragon...
K
06-19-06, 05:11 PM Yeah, you can gain levels, you just aren't going to. You get o XP at all for a 15th level encounter, but you were a 16th level character, so you'll still be doing those. You might even be pretty strong against them because you'll be doing weird stuff like using giant size out of a Ring of Spell Storing because Dragons get special benefits when they become Gargantuan.

Unfortunately, you only get 144 XP for besting a CR 16 opponent. And you're 185,000 XP short of your next level. So while the rest of the party is going to level after about 13 or 14 encounters, you are going to gain a level after one thousand, two hundred, and eighty-four encounters. That's enough encounters to take most games to level 98, and since to the best of my knowledge no games have ever been playeyed honestly from levels 1 to 98, the chances are so slim as to be negligible that you will ever gain a level again.

If you're willing to pull Difference Engine cheese, you can gain levels again, by the expedient of level loss which lowers your ECL o 22, and sets your XP to just below what you need to get to 23. This causes you to skip over more than one hundred and seventy thousand XP and puts you almost on track to where you wnt to be. But Difference Engine, while legal by RAW, makes most people feel extremely bad (and is part of a two-spell infinite level gain trick available to every Cleric). So it gets banned in most games, just as the Ritual of Vitality does.
Fullmetal_Alchemist
06-19-06, 06:49 PM Well, if you want to be a dragon so bad, make up your own idea. That is what D&D is about no? Because you create your own fantasy world. I did this once. but make sure you wait at the right time/place to become the dragon. Like...maybe don't become a dragon at level 1 because that is kinda over powered and kinda borken (and yes i know. Playing a dragon has LA *Level Adjustment*). basicly make something you like and make it happen. Thats what I do.
djbeatboy
06-19-06, 08:42 PM There was also a 20 Lvl Base class Dragon progression in one of the Dragon Mags.... (sorry not sure which one.... around the 320 mark)
Endwyn
06-19-06, 09:22 PM I have the dragon magazines you speak of. (One for metalics and one for chromatics.) I was just trying to figure out what is up with the material that had already been introduced that was published somewhere.

Yes - the dragonborn are what the NPC is supposed to be. Except our NPC can shift into a dragon, and actually became one somehow. (Or both the NPC and the GM have been decieving us about the NPC's true nature.)

Regardless, the word Dragonborn did come up in his explination of the NPC. Thanks for telling me where to find that.
Tramp4life
06-19-06, 10:30 PM I think what he is saying is that you are 13th level with 6 extra hit dice; but you are considered to be 23rd level when calculating XP awards. So it would be like saying that a 1st level character would have to fight a 11th level encounter to gain their "normal award".

He's really saying it becomes too hard to continue to gain XP. (Although not impossible.)
You can't cheat and find a way to increase in age category as a Dragon and therefore, de-facto go up in level with the rest of the party?
Istar_Rosme
06-19-06, 10:39 PM You can't cheat and find a way to increase in age category as a Dragon and therefore, de-facto go up in level with the rest of the party?
1. Magical experiments increasing the growth of the dragon, thus increasing it's HD
2. Divine help, speeding up the process of becoming a mature dragon. This can be done in many ways
3. Play the dragon as a young creature and as the roleplaying progresses, the dragon matures
4. Living in a permanently Time-Stopped/ Time-Slowed plane for a while....you add some HD's here and there...

I think you might be able to come up with some ideas too.
Bobmakenzie
06-19-06, 11:07 PM What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do.

Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities.

Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level).

So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual.

....Have you even read the book? or are you just on the drugs?

Ritual of Vitality just trades your levels for ECL or levels in a race...and costs a big bushel of gold....

DAve- read the book before you spout of stupid things like that!
Endwyn
06-19-06, 11:33 PM About dragon advancement:

In second ed we were playing a counsel of wyrms game; and one PC came up with the brilliant idea of hasting himself to the next catagory once he had the XP & hoard.

For those who didn't play second ed, haste aged the caster one year each time they were the target of the spell. Haste was used more in my group for the side effect than the actual purpose. (A villian once was aging the king in his sleep via repeated hastings.)
K
06-20-06, 12:27 AM ....Have you even read the book?

Yes.

[jerk comments deleted]

Ritual of Vitality just trades your levels for ECL or levels in a race...and costs a big bushel of gold....

No. It costs XP from the end of your progression equal to the XP required to gain a number of levels of the race at the beginning of your progression. So for example, let's sy thaqt you're a 7th level character trying to become a Gnoll. A Gnoll is ECL 3, so it costs 6,000 XP. As a 7th level character, you actually have 21,000 XP, so dropping 6,000 XP is enough to drop you to 6th level. Then you pick up 2 Gnoll Hit Dice and a +1 LA. So you count as a 9th level character and you have 15,000 XP. So when you pick up 30,000 XP you'll gain a single additional level.

That may not be what it is supposed to do, but that is what it says that it does. It's on page 150 of Savage Species. Perhaps you were thinking about the Ritual of Unlearning and just couldn't be bothered to look it up before you shpot your mouth off?

DAve- read the book before you spout of stupid things like that!

Under the circumstances, I stongly suggest that you follow your own advice. Really. You should totally do that.
Bobmakenzie
06-20-06, 12:50 AM Yes.

[jerk comments deleted]

No. It costs XP from the end of your progression equal to the XP required to gain a number of levels of the race at the beginning of your progression. So for example, let's sy thaqt you're a 7th level character trying to become a Gnoll. A Gnoll is ECL 3, so it costs 6,000 XP. As a 7th level character, you actually have 21,000 XP, so dropping 6,000 XP is enough to drop you to 6th level. Then you pick up 2 Gnoll Hit Dice and a +1 LA. So you count as a 9th level character and you have 15,000 XP. So when you pick up 30,000 XP you'll gain a single additional level.

That may not be what it is supposed to do, but that is what it says that it does. It's on page 150 of Savage Species. Perhaps you were thinking about the Ritual of Unlearning and just couldn't be bothered to look it up before you shpot your mouth off?

Under the circumstances, I stongly suggest that you follow your own advice. Really. You should totally do that.

Alright, Im sorry, I admit it. I read it and interpretted it completely Different just now. I ran over it again and Its how you explain....Wow I seriously misread that two times.

DAve-
Istar_Rosme
06-20-06, 02:00 AM Then again, Savage Species is 3rd Ed and perhaps that was one of those things that should've been fixed if ever a 3.5th Ed was made...
Hariman
06-20-06, 09:30 PM In Dragon #339 there is the epic prestige class "Athasian Dragon" which transforms a character into a dragon over 10 levels while granting spellcasting AND psionics.

But you have to be epic. And psionics has to be allowed. And it's Dark Sun specific, so you have to do either a flavor adaptation or you have to play in darksun.

Oh yeah, there is a special requirement that requires a ritual involving the sacrifice of 1000 HD of living beings and 50,000 Gold.

Steep requirements, but it is cool to become an actual dragon.
Bikermattus
06-26-06, 10:32 PM My personal favorite method of doing ALMOST existing events (such as transforming into a dragon) is to take an existing prestige class and extending it to provide the "missing link" sought. For instance, using the Dragon Disciple, extend it with the Advanced (epic) Dragon Disciple with a number of levels equal to, say, 5 + ECL adjustment (I'm just throwing the 5 out there randomly). Half-dragons would only need the prerequisites for the original DD class, and those coming out of DD would be able to instantly move on. distribute Dragon traits across the levels (like the RCCs in Savage Species), and you'd have the perfect transition into being a full dragon.

________________________________________ ___________________________________
Awww... all that tug-of-war with the signinjas stretched my sig into a line :weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endwyn 06-19-06, 02:50 PM	Ok, I know there is some process by which you can become a dragon. I thought it was in the Draconomicon; but I flipped through it and didn't see what I was looking for. Anyone know what this is called and which book it's in?
Bladegeek 06-19-06, 03:47 PM	Sure hatch from a dragon egg. :)
Endwyn 06-19-06, 04:06 PM	I know, D&D has become so complex and contrived - with a way to accomplish any goal, no matter how difficult in specificly outlined game mechanics. I'd personally go with the just hatch from a dragon's egg approach too...but the GM has introduced this into our game world and I'd like to look over what it is / does.
obrysii 06-19-06, 04:20 PM	Ritual of Transformation or Shapechange.
snowlynx 06-19-06, 04:28 PM	Savage species has a listing of different ways one can become a monster, including one suggestion of using the Wish spell. Here, more suggestions that aren't quite true dragon: The Master of Many forms class (complete adventurer) eventually gets to use wildshape to be a dragon. The Dragon Disciple Class from the DMG lets you be a half-dragon, which is type dragon. I bet there's stuff in Races of the Dragon, but I haven't had a chance to look over it yet.
K 06-19-06, 04:32 PM	What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do. Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities. Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level). So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual.
obrysii 06-19-06, 04:39 PM	What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do. Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities. Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level). So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual. Eh? Why can't you gain XP anymore?
Endwyn 06-19-06, 04:46 PM	I think what he is saying is that you are 13th level with 6 extra hit dice; but you are considered to be 23rd level when calculating XP awards. So it would be like saying that a 1st level character would have to fight a 11th level encounter to gain their "normal award". He's really saying it becomes too hard to continue to gain XP. (Although not impossible.)
paradox1995 06-19-06, 05:05 PM	check the book races of the dragon... I think there is something in there about becoming a dragon...
K 06-19-06, 05:11 PM	Yeah, you can gain levels, you just aren't going to. You get o XP at all for a 15th level encounter, but you were a 16th level character, so you'll still be doing those. You might even be pretty strong against them because you'll be doing weird stuff like using giant size out of a Ring of Spell Storing because Dragons get special benefits when they become Gargantuan. Unfortunately, you only get 144 XP for besting a CR 16 opponent. And you're 185,000 XP short of your next level. So while the rest of the party is going to level after about 13 or 14 encounters, you are going to gain a level after one thousand, two hundred, and eighty-four encounters. That's enough encounters to take most games to level 98, and since to the best of my knowledge no games have ever been playeyed honestly from levels 1 to 98, the chances are so slim as to be negligible that you will ever gain a level again. If you're willing to pull Difference Engine cheese, you can gain levels again, by the expedient of level loss which lowers your ECL o 22, and sets your XP to just below what you need to get to 23. This causes you to skip over more than one hundred and seventy thousand XP and puts you almost on track to where you wnt to be. But Difference Engine, while legal by RAW, makes most people feel extremely bad (and is part of a two-spell infinite level gain trick available to every Cleric). So it gets banned in most games, just as the Ritual of Vitality does.
Fullmetal_Alchemist 06-19-06, 06:49 PM	Well, if you want to be a dragon so bad, make up your own idea. That is what D&D is about no? Because you create your own fantasy world. I did this once. but make sure you wait at the right time/place to become the dragon. Like...maybe don't become a dragon at level 1 because that is kinda over powered and kinda borken (and yes i know. Playing a dragon has LA Level Adjustment). basicly make something you like and make it happen. Thats what I do.
djbeatboy 06-19-06, 08:42 PM	There was also a 20 Lvl Base class Dragon progression in one of the Dragon Mags.... (sorry not sure which one.... around the 320 mark)
Endwyn 06-19-06, 09:22 PM	I have the dragon magazines you speak of. (One for metalics and one for chromatics.) I was just trying to figure out what is up with the material that had already been introduced that was published somewhere. Yes - the dragonborn are what the NPC is supposed to be. Except our NPC can shift into a dragon, and actually became one somehow. (Or both the NPC and the GM have been decieving us about the NPC's true nature.) Regardless, the word Dragonborn did come up in his explination of the NPC. Thanks for telling me where to find that.
Tramp4life 06-19-06, 10:30 PM	I think what he is saying is that you are 13th level with 6 extra hit dice; but you are considered to be 23rd level when calculating XP awards. So it would be like saying that a 1st level character would have to fight a 11th level encounter to gain their "normal award". He's really saying it becomes too hard to continue to gain XP. (Although not impossible.) You can't cheat and find a way to increase in age category as a Dragon and therefore, de-facto go up in level with the rest of the party?
Istar_Rosme 06-19-06, 10:39 PM	You can't cheat and find a way to increase in age category as a Dragon and therefore, de-facto go up in level with the rest of the party? 1. Magical experiments increasing the growth of the dragon, thus increasing it's HD 2. Divine help, speeding up the process of becoming a mature dragon. This can be done in many ways 3. Play the dragon as a young creature and as the roleplaying progresses, the dragon matures 4. Living in a permanently Time-Stopped/ Time-Slowed plane for a while....you add some HD's here and there... I think you might be able to come up with some ideas too.
Bobmakenzie 06-19-06, 11:07 PM	What you're lookig for is the Ritual of Vitality from Savage Species on page 150. It's completely broken and allowing it into your game is about the dumbest thing you can do. Here's how it works: You spend 45,000 XP, which can make you lose levels (for example, if you are a 16th level character, you'll fall back to 13th level). Then you become a Wyrmling Bronze Dragon, gaining 6 hit dice of Dragon and all of the relevent abilities. Now, you have enough XP to be a 13th level character, you have 19 hit dice, andyou gain XP from challenges as if you were a 23rd level character (which means that you don't even get XP from encounters of your level). You won't gain another level until you somehow manage to pick up enough XP to have gotten to 24th level honestly (which won't happen since you essentially can't gain XP anymore and are literally 185,000 XP short of your next level). So you slightly overpower yourself when you activate the ritual, and you "pay for it" by being unable to ever gain levels in the future for as long as the game lasts. Whether the game ends soon or continus indefinitely, the game is horribly broken and unsatisfying once you introduce that ritual. ....Have you even read the book? or are you just on the drugs? Ritual of Vitality just trades your levels for ECL or levels in a race...and costs a big bushel of gold.... DAve- read the book before you spout of stupid things like that!
Endwyn 06-19-06, 11:33 PM	About dragon advancement: In second ed we were playing a counsel of wyrms game; and one PC came up with the brilliant idea of hasting himself to the next catagory once he had the XP & hoard. For those who didn't play second ed, haste aged the caster one year each time they were the target of the spell. Haste was used more in my group for the side effect than the actual purpose. (A villian once was aging the king in his sleep via repeated hastings.)
K 06-20-06, 12:27 AM	....Have you even read the book? Yes. [jerk comments deleted] Ritual of Vitality just trades your levels for ECL or levels in a race...and costs a big bushel of gold.... No. It costs XP from the end of your progression equal to the XP required to gain a number of levels of the race at the beginning of your progression. So for example, let's sy thaqt you're a 7th level character trying to become a Gnoll. A Gnoll is ECL 3, so it costs 6,000 XP. As a 7th level character, you actually have 21,000 XP, so dropping 6,000 XP is enough to drop you to 6th level. Then you pick up 2 Gnoll Hit Dice and a +1 LA. So you count as a 9th level character and you have 15,000 XP. So when you pick up 30,000 XP you'll gain a single additional level. That may not be what it is supposed to do, but that is what it says that it does. It's on page 150 of Savage Species. Perhaps you were thinking about the Ritual of Unlearning and just couldn't be bothered to look it up before you shpot your mouth off? DAve- read the book before you spout of stupid things like that! Under the circumstances, I stongly suggest that you follow your own advice. Really. You should totally do that.
Bobmakenzie 06-20-06, 12:50 AM	Yes. [jerk comments deleted] No. It costs XP from the end of your progression equal to the XP required to gain a number of levels of the race at the beginning of your progression. So for example, let's sy thaqt you're a 7th level character trying to become a Gnoll. A Gnoll is ECL 3, so it costs 6,000 XP. As a 7th level character, you actually have 21,000 XP, so dropping 6,000 XP is enough to drop you to 6th level. Then you pick up 2 Gnoll Hit Dice and a +1 LA. So you count as a 9th level character and you have 15,000 XP. So when you pick up 30,000 XP you'll gain a single additional level. That may not be what it is supposed to do, but that is what it says that it does. It's on page 150 of Savage Species. Perhaps you were thinking about the Ritual of Unlearning and just couldn't be bothered to look it up before you shpot your mouth off? Under the circumstances, I stongly suggest that you follow your own advice. Really. You should totally do that. Alright, Im sorry, I admit it. I read it and interpretted it completely Different just now. I ran over it again and Its how you explain....Wow I seriously misread that two times. DAve-
Istar_Rosme 06-20-06, 02:00 AM	Then again, Savage Species is 3rd Ed and perhaps that was one of those things that should've been fixed if ever a 3.5th Ed was made...
Hariman 06-20-06, 09:30 PM	In Dragon #339 there is the epic prestige class "Athasian Dragon" which transforms a character into a dragon over 10 levels while granting spellcasting AND psionics. But you have to be epic. And psionics has to be allowed. And it's Dark Sun specific, so you have to do either a flavor adaptation or you have to play in darksun. Oh yeah, there is a special requirement that requires a ritual involving the sacrifice of 1000 HD of living beings and 50,000 Gold. Steep requirements, but it is cool to become an actual dragon.
Bikermattus 06-26-06, 10:32 PM	My personal favorite method of doing ALMOST existing events (such as transforming into a dragon) is to take an existing prestige class and extending it to provide the "missing link" sought. For instance, using the Dragon Disciple, extend it with the Advanced (epic) Dragon Disciple with a number of levels equal to, say, 5 + ECL adjustment (I'm just throwing the 5 out there randomly). Half-dragons would only need the prerequisites for the original DD class, and those coming out of DD would be able to instantly move on. distribute Dragon traits across the levels (like the RCCs in Savage Species), and you'd have the perfect transition into being a full dragon. ________________________________________ ___________________________________ Awww... all that tug-of-war with the signinjas stretched my sig into a line :weep: