Becoming an Enlightened Fist... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Becoming an Enlightened Fist... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Redkun
01-21-07, 10:14 AM A friend of mine is running his first campaign, and I have a character concept in mind... but there are multiple problems.

My original idea was for a Monk/Sorceror/Enlightened Fist, taking the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer to keep the Unarmed Damage up... that is, until I found out that it's the only one of the Ascetic Feats that doesn't stack your character levels to determine Unarmed damage. Even after I became a Monk 1/Sorceror 6/Enlightened Fist 1, I would only have the Unarmed damage of a 2nd level Monk, which is not worth it.

What's more, I can't find another way for me to increase my Unarmed damage as I level without taking one level of Monk and one of the Ascetic feats... and considering my character isn't exactly Lawful, it's a real pain to be restricted on the one character class that does what I want. If I could, I would take Duskblade and Improved Unarmed Strike, but then I'm stuck at 1d3 damage for the rest of the campaign.

Can anyone help me out? It's a 1st level campaign at the moment, but I like to have a character build in mind before starting a game. I'm willing to change my character to Lawful if I have to... but I don't want to play a straight Monk. Preferably, I'd like some way of advancing into the Enlightened Fist PrC without falling behind on my unarmed damage.
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 10:23 AM Superior unarmed strike (ToB) will boost your damage to decent proportions even if you're not a monk. If you are, it gives you a +4 to your monk level for the purposes of calculating your unarmed damage. From then on, you can get a monk belt for +5 to your monk level when calculating unarmed damage. Aside from that, get greater magic weapon (it can work on your fists) and practiced spellcaster to compensate for the monk/EF levels. You should be able to beat a "standard" monk's unarmed damage output, don't worry. Oh, and by the way - ask the DM if he'd allow you to get improved Natural Attack (SRD, in the monsters' section but you should have no problem to take it - it's not like it requires you to have 4 arms or some such :D).

For now, you can just take a kama or two anyway.
Toxic_Shaman
01-21-07, 10:52 AM Take a look at the 3rd level spell Greater Mighty Wallop. It provides a major boost to your unarmed strike damage.
Witch
01-21-07, 10:54 AM Grab Superior Unarmed Strike ánd Greater Mighty Wallop. Even better :)
Redkun
01-21-07, 11:18 AM Are both Superior Unarmed Strike and Greater Mighty Wallop in the Tome of Battle? I don't have that book, and I don't think my GM has it either.
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 11:20 AM I'm pretty sure GM wallop was not, but I can't vouch for that. Anyway, don't worry: at sorc6/EF 3 you get polymorph and the fun is ready to start :D
Witch
01-21-07, 11:25 AM GMW is in Races of the Dragon.
SilentOne
01-21-07, 11:31 AM The Wallop's from Races of the Dragon.

Another way to increase the damage would be to just enlarge person yourself for fights, which would put the damage boosters on the faster track of a large sized monk instead of the medium monk (and just larger weapons in general). With the belt, GMWallop, Superior US, INA, and enlarge person, you should be doing 6d8 damage with each hit. Pretty nice.
kelvinaw273
01-21-07, 12:19 PM The answer is take as few levels as you need to qualify as an Enlightened fist as you can - don't take 6 levels in sorcerer if you can get away with 3!

From what I deduce of the class you are best off using Buffs to enhance your combat power rather than blasting anyway. In fact, I would suggest Battle Sorcerer as an option if you have UA.
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 12:49 PM I don't think you can be an EF with 3 levels of sorcerer, unfortunately :) Apparently you will have to accept a slightly worse damage/BAB...

Oh my, I just tried applying common sense to D&D. I apologize. You just need to find the right spell, iirc Alter self, mage armor, Tenser's T - all of these could help.
ninjarabbit
01-21-07, 01:06 PM EF isn't a bad class if you're trying to be more monk than wizard.

Practiced spellcaster can cut down on the levels of sorcerer you need to get into EF. I'd probably go monk6/sorcerer2/EF10 and the last 2 levels go for whatever tickles your fancy.
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 01:10 PM D'oh... totally ignored that. However, don't prerequisites for PrCs include only your "base" spellcasting level? Like how feat bonuses to skills (afaik) don't count either?
Saliantianos
01-21-07, 01:14 PM yes very true the spells are only focused towards feats (MAINLY) but some focuse elsewhere and can be used to your advantage
stsword
01-22-07, 03:50 AM I don't think you can be an EF with 3 levels of sorcerer, unfortunately :) Apparently you will have to accept a slightly worse damage/BAB...

Oh my, I just tried applying common sense to D&D. I apologize. You just need to find the right spell, iirc Alter self, mage armor, Tenser's T - all of these could help.

Uhhm, why not? It only requires a caster level of three, and it's highest skill requirement is concentration 8, that and knowledge arcana are also class skills for monks as well.

So Monk 2/Sorcerer3/Enlightened Fist 1 through 10.
The_Shaman
01-22-07, 11:11 AM Strange, I always thought it required a caster level of 5. Oh well, that makes things a lot easier... Has anyone tried how alter self works for monks and their ilk, by the way? It seems to be quite useful, from what I see in the mechanics. The natural armor, at the very least, sounds handy ;) .
BronzeBeard
01-22-07, 12:25 PM Enlightened Fist, eh?
You walk a tricky road my friend.

Well let's get started, shall we?
First we'll look into the arcane requirements:
You'll have to take 3 levels minimum of any, I repeat, any arcane class in order to have the required arcane caster level. The granted skill points in that class should go to cover the Spellcraft since this skill is the only one not available to the monk (assuming of course that you don't have a negative int' bonus).
Second comes the Monk himself:
You'll only have to take two levels to cover both the rest of the skills and to gather (through class's ability) 2 of the three needed feats. Last will come the Combat Casting feat which you will have to take by normal feat means (i.e. 3rd level bonus).

As for the Ascetic Mage feat:
Using the above guidance you will not be allowed to take the mentioned feat until taking another class in Sorcerer (unwise choice if your main goal is monk-y character) or after taking your first level in Enlightened Fist in which the feat will not be as effective as it seems.
In general, I think that you let the Ascetic Mage feat seems more important then it is in reality. After all the only gain for you is in +3 levels on the +1 AC per 5(:eek: ) levels of monk which is too small net gain to mention. Besides, preferring the monk class over the sorcerer class means that you won't invest as much in charisma as you would invest in wisdom. And you don't want to let that feat reduce your armor now do ya?
Personally, I think that you can manage without it and that there are much better feats to take. So think carefully before you write this feat on your character sheet.

Another thing for the thought. When I went this way with my class I thought it would be a nice thing to do by taking my first two levels as a fighter the following way:

Ftr 1
Ftr 2
Ftr 2 \ Mnk 1
Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2
Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 1
Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 2
Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 3

This way, you ignore the Multi-class penalty and you gain another 2 precious feats!

Now, good luck.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Redkun 01-21-07, 10:14 AM	A friend of mine is running his first campaign, and I have a character concept in mind... but there are multiple problems. My original idea was for a Monk/Sorceror/Enlightened Fist, taking the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer to keep the Unarmed Damage up... that is, until I found out that it's the only one of the Ascetic Feats that doesn't stack your character levels to determine Unarmed damage. Even after I became a Monk 1/Sorceror 6/Enlightened Fist 1, I would only have the Unarmed damage of a 2nd level Monk, which is not worth it. What's more, I can't find another way for me to increase my Unarmed damage as I level without taking one level of Monk and one of the Ascetic feats... and considering my character isn't exactly Lawful, it's a real pain to be restricted on the one character class that does what I want. If I could, I would take Duskblade and Improved Unarmed Strike, but then I'm stuck at 1d3 damage for the rest of the campaign. Can anyone help me out? It's a 1st level campaign at the moment, but I like to have a character build in mind before starting a game. I'm willing to change my character to Lawful if I have to... but I don't want to play a straight Monk. Preferably, I'd like some way of advancing into the Enlightened Fist PrC without falling behind on my unarmed damage.
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 10:23 AM	Superior unarmed strike (ToB) will boost your damage to decent proportions even if you're not a monk. If you are, it gives you a +4 to your monk level for the purposes of calculating your unarmed damage. From then on, you can get a monk belt for +5 to your monk level when calculating unarmed damage. Aside from that, get greater magic weapon (it can work on your fists) and practiced spellcaster to compensate for the monk/EF levels. You should be able to beat a "standard" monk's unarmed damage output, don't worry. Oh, and by the way - ask the DM if he'd allow you to get improved Natural Attack (SRD, in the monsters' section but you should have no problem to take it - it's not like it requires you to have 4 arms or some such :D). For now, you can just take a kama or two anyway.
Toxic_Shaman 01-21-07, 10:52 AM	Take a look at the 3rd level spell Greater Mighty Wallop. It provides a major boost to your unarmed strike damage.
Witch 01-21-07, 10:54 AM	Grab Superior Unarmed Strike ánd Greater Mighty Wallop. Even better :)
Redkun 01-21-07, 11:18 AM	Are both Superior Unarmed Strike and Greater Mighty Wallop in the Tome of Battle? I don't have that book, and I don't think my GM has it either.
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 11:20 AM	I'm pretty sure GM wallop was not, but I can't vouch for that. Anyway, don't worry: at sorc6/EF 3 you get polymorph and the fun is ready to start :D
Witch 01-21-07, 11:25 AM	GMW is in Races of the Dragon.
SilentOne 01-21-07, 11:31 AM	The Wallop's from Races of the Dragon. Another way to increase the damage would be to just enlarge person yourself for fights, which would put the damage boosters on the faster track of a large sized monk instead of the medium monk (and just larger weapons in general). With the belt, GMWallop, Superior US, INA, and enlarge person, you should be doing 6d8 damage with each hit. Pretty nice.
kelvinaw273 01-21-07, 12:19 PM	The answer is take as few levels as you need to qualify as an Enlightened fist as you can - don't take 6 levels in sorcerer if you can get away with 3! From what I deduce of the class you are best off using Buffs to enhance your combat power rather than blasting anyway. In fact, I would suggest Battle Sorcerer as an option if you have UA.
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 12:49 PM	I don't think you can be an EF with 3 levels of sorcerer, unfortunately :) Apparently you will have to accept a slightly worse damage/BAB... Oh my, I just tried applying common sense to D&D. I apologize. You just need to find the right spell, iirc Alter self, mage armor, Tenser's T - all of these could help.
ninjarabbit 01-21-07, 01:06 PM	EF isn't a bad class if you're trying to be more monk than wizard. Practiced spellcaster can cut down on the levels of sorcerer you need to get into EF. I'd probably go monk6/sorcerer2/EF10 and the last 2 levels go for whatever tickles your fancy.
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 01:10 PM	D'oh... totally ignored that. However, don't prerequisites for PrCs include only your "base" spellcasting level? Like how feat bonuses to skills (afaik) don't count either?
Saliantianos 01-21-07, 01:14 PM	yes very true the spells are only focused towards feats (MAINLY) but some focuse elsewhere and can be used to your advantage
stsword 01-22-07, 03:50 AM	I don't think you can be an EF with 3 levels of sorcerer, unfortunately :) Apparently you will have to accept a slightly worse damage/BAB... Oh my, I just tried applying common sense to D&D. I apologize. You just need to find the right spell, iirc Alter self, mage armor, Tenser's T - all of these could help. Uhhm, why not? It only requires a caster level of three, and it's highest skill requirement is concentration 8, that and knowledge arcana are also class skills for monks as well. So Monk 2/Sorcerer3/Enlightened Fist 1 through 10.
The_Shaman 01-22-07, 11:11 AM	Strange, I always thought it required a caster level of 5. Oh well, that makes things a lot easier... Has anyone tried how alter self works for monks and their ilk, by the way? It seems to be quite useful, from what I see in the mechanics. The natural armor, at the very least, sounds handy ;) .
BronzeBeard 01-22-07, 12:25 PM	Enlightened Fist, eh? You walk a tricky road my friend. Well let's get started, shall we? First we'll look into the arcane requirements: You'll have to take 3 levels minimum of any, I repeat, any arcane class in order to have the required arcane caster level. The granted skill points in that class should go to cover the Spellcraft since this skill is the only one not available to the monk (assuming of course that you don't have a negative int' bonus). Second comes the Monk himself: You'll only have to take two levels to cover both the rest of the skills and to gather (through class's ability) 2 of the three needed feats. Last will come the Combat Casting feat which you will have to take by normal feat means (i.e. 3rd level bonus). As for the Ascetic Mage feat: Using the above guidance you will not be allowed to take the mentioned feat until taking another class in Sorcerer (unwise choice if your main goal is monk-y character) or after taking your first level in Enlightened Fist in which the feat will not be as effective as it seems. In general, I think that you let the Ascetic Mage feat seems more important then it is in reality. After all the only gain for you is in +3 levels on the +1 AC per 5(:eek: ) levels of monk which is too small net gain to mention. Besides, preferring the monk class over the sorcerer class means that you won't invest as much in charisma as you would invest in wisdom. And you don't want to let that feat reduce your armor now do ya? Personally, I think that you can manage without it and that there are much better feats to take. So think carefully before you write this feat on your character sheet. Another thing for the thought. When I went this way with my class I thought it would be a nice thing to do by taking my first two levels as a fighter the following way: Ftr 1 Ftr 2 Ftr 2 \ Mnk 1 Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 1 Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 2 Ftr 2 \ Mnk 2 \ Scr 3 This way, you ignore the Multi-class penalty and you gain another 2 precious feats! Now, good luck.