Beef Up the Sorceror! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beef Up the Sorceror! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster
01-13-06, 08:38 AM Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror.
Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die.
BONUS FEATS. I'd give them metamagic like wizards, and probably a few general bonus feats as well.
Metamagic improvement! Let them get a spell all metamagic'd up like an hour in advance, or give them a limited amount of instant metamagic daily.
I'll update this later.
Pandaemoni
01-13-06, 08:43 AM Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror.
[list] Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die.

See, Bard PHB pages 26-30

Also, "gypped" is a bigoted term since it denigrates the Romany, or "gypsies." You might as well say sorcerers are "polacks".
Sosthenes
01-13-06, 09:20 AM Well, I'd say that spontaneous casting about cancels out the better spell selection of the Wizard. So the only thing that might warrant changes would be the bonus feats and the possibility of specialization.

Anything that gives the sorcerer more bonus feats probably tilts the balance against the wizard, so I wouldn't give them more than the Wizard. Give them the same choice yet change the first level one from Scribe Scroll to Eschew Materials.

Specialization can also be replaced in a rather similar way: Create some "bloodlines" or affinities (i.e. Dragon, Storm etc.) with the benefit of two known spells per spell level, but decrease general spells known per level by one. So you know more spells, yet are a little less flexible.

The Fighter variant has been done by UA's Battle Sorcerer and is quite nicely balanced.

Monte Cook had a Sorcerer variant who got 4 skill points, D6 HD and didn't need material components. Then he balanced the spell lists, so that spells that are increasingly useful if you can cast them quite often got bumped a level. And some of the more sophisticated spells weren't on the list anymore, as the sorcerer is more about raw power than intricately woven spells...

Since the first release of 3E, there have been lots of "fixes" for the Sorcerer. Most of them are pretty minimal, as it's only slightly out of balance. Changing too much makes them too powerful (i.e. cleric-like...)

(And BTW, the origin of "gypped" is a matter of debate. Some overly politically correct people would probably even object to your "denigrate" as being racial ;) )
Seeker of Undeath
01-13-06, 09:56 AM Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror.
Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die.
BONUS FEATS. I'd give them metamagic like wizards, and probably a few general bonus feats as well.
Metamagic improvement! Let them get a spell all metamagic'd up like an hour in advance, or give them a limited amount of instant metamagic daily.
I'll update this later.Hrmm... I like the good old Eschew Materials at 1st, then a bonus Metamagic or Draconic Heritage feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

As for metamagic you need to check out Arcane Preparation and the whole slew of Sudden <whatever> metamagic feats from Complete Arcane.

I happen to like the idea of making Knowledge (Planes) a class skill too. That opens up the whole Fiend-Blooded PrC for them too.
Pandaemoni
01-13-06, 11:24 AM If I had to change the sorcerer or make them balanced against wizard (in fact, I am personally more likely to nerf wizard, cleric and druid, but six of one...), then I'd change their flavor iv very different ways from the original poster's suggestions.

First rule, is that the goal is not to make them *better* than wizards (or bards, for that matter as the original poster's suggestions seem likely to marginalize bards except in the rare cases where a player really wants to play a musician or other performer for roll paying reasons).

Second rule, is that you want to give them more flavor without necessarily forcing everyone to adopt the *same* flavor (i.e. all sorcerers get Draconic Heritage).

In that regard, what I'd consider doing is to hybridize the specialist wizards and the Draconic Heritage ideas (without actually having dragons being necessarily involved).

Have each Sorcerer pick a particular kind of dragon or non-deity outsider as a "patron." (This mimics the fact the folkloric sorcerers frequently were thought to be in league with devils and demons...he devil/demon in question simply would have been the sorcerer's patron) Each patron would have an associated element (acid, fire, cold, or electricity) As a spell-like ability, the Sorcerer can cast one extra spell with the associated type of damage per day for each spell level from which he or she can cast spells. (if no such spell exists at a given spell level , the player may either, at the DM's discretion (i) invent such a spell without the associated research cost or time--it is presumed to have been invented by the character's patron or (ii) the character can choose a different elemental spell and cast it as if that spell had been subjected to the Energy Substitution feat, with no increase in spell level or in casting time). This extra spell like ability is *not* granted unless you gain the requisite Sorcerer level, hence jumping over to a PrC costs you list ability. The sorcerer is treated as if he were one caster level higher for purposes of determining the effects of all spells cast from his or her related element (including range, damage, save DCs, etc); The sorcerer must choose two other elements from the list and cannot learn spells that have those descriptors (he can, of course, still cast such a spells energy substituted counterpart, if one was taken as a spell-like ability). The patron demands payment for its role in guiding the sorcerer, taking a part of the life force of the character (the character selects a "character flaw" from Unearthed Arcana, without the offsetting free feat, or some other flaw approved by the DM). No magic can restore the lost piece of the character's life force (or, hence, directly remove the flaw).

I have no problem adding Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill in that system. Nor with giving them Eschew Materials as a free feat. Sorcerers could also take the Draconic Heritage feat if they wanted it, but it would not be given to them for free (you don't need to be related to a dragon to have one as your patron). Sorcerers would also need to be damnably careful about identifying their patrons. If your patron is located and killed by some BBEG, you'd no longer be able to advance to any new sorcerer levels (unless you find a new patron, which would be tough given that you got your last one killed).

I might need to rethink the last bullet conceoptually to allow for "good" patrons, but the hardship on a good sorcerer with a good patron should be no less than that for an evil sorcerer. IMO, that rules out having a patron who merely requires the sorcerer to go on quests. While in real life, the obligation to go on periodic quests would be a terrible price, in game it is not so bad.
Crimson_Concerto
01-13-06, 05:44 PM The only think I think is underpowered about sorcerers is how they have to wait until even levels to get a new spell level as opposed to prepared casters who get their new spell levels at odd levels, a level earlier.

To balance this, the house rule I usually suggest is to give the sorcerer 0 spells per day at the levels when prepared casters get a new spell level but they do not. What this does is allow a sorcerer to cast spells of that level if they have a sufficient CHA mod to get bonus spells per day of that level. This turns the Spells / Day table to:

Level Spells
01 5/3
02 6/4
03 6/5/0
04 6/6/3
05 6/6/4/0
06 6/6/5/3
07 6/6/6/4/0
08 6/6/6/5/3
09 6/6/6/6/4/0
10 6/6/6/6/5/3
11 6/6/6/6/6/4/0
12 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
13 6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
14 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

This is enough to make them balanced, we think. They're still sub-par, but now they are standable like a fighter; slighty underpowered, but you should be able to prevail none the less if you know what you're doing and at least try to be effective.

I forgot to mention that at the level when the sorcerer gets this new 0 spells per day, he knows 1 spell of that level as long as he has a sufficient CHA mod to get a bonus spell/day of that level. Otherwise, it does not know any of that level's spells.
Seeker of Undeath
01-13-06, 06:38 PM The only think I think is underpowered about sorcerers is how they have to wait until even levels to get a new spell level as opposed to prepared casters who get their new spell levels at odd levels, a level earlier.

To balance this, the house rule I usually suggest is to give the sorcerer 0 spells per day at the levels when prepared casters get a new spell level but they do not. What this does is allow a sorcerer to cast spells of that level if they have a sufficient CHA mod to get bonus spells per day of that level. This turns the Spells / Day table to:

Level Spells
01 5/3
02 6/4
03 6/5/0
04 6/6/3
05 6/6/4/0
06 6/6/5/3
07 6/6/6/4/0
08 6/6/6/5/3
09 6/6/6/6/4/0
10 6/6/6/6/5/3
11 6/6/6/6/6/4/0
12 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
13 6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
14 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0
18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

This is enough to make them balanced, we think. They're still sub-par, but now they are standable like a fighter; slighty underpowered, but you should be able to prevail none the less if you know what you're doing and at least try to be effective.

I forgot to mention that at the level when the sorcerer gets this new 0 spells per day, he knows 1 spell of that level as long as he has a sufficient CHA mod to get a bonus spell/day of that level. Otherwise, it does not know any of that level's spells. Did you notice what happens if you change the zeros to twos? Ah, and shove the spells known up one.
Kyuketsukiouji
01-13-06, 06:47 PM - 4 skill points per level.
- Diplomacy and UMD as class skills.
- The same spell level progression as a wizard.

There, fixed.
Crimson_Concerto
01-13-06, 06:49 PM Did you notice what happens if you change the zeros to twos? Ah, and shove the spells known up one.Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know the pattern would suggest changing the 0s to 2s, but I'm not trying to make a MAJOR change here, just a sufficient one.

Also, for a second there I though when you said "shove the spells known up one" you meant something mean. :P Again, I'm not trying to make the drastic changes other people are trying to make. I'm just giving them the right every other spellcasting class has of having a certain spell level by a certain time, and I think that's enough if you're playing with people who aren't massive powergamers.
Kyuketsukiouji
01-13-06, 06:58 PM There is no reason the sorcerer shouldn't have access to their spells at the same rate every single other primary caster class does, at (spell level x 2 -1)th level.
Raxmei
01-13-06, 07:07 PM If Sorceror had Extra Spell, among others, available as a bonus feat that would create a bit of motivation to stay in the class rather than jump ship to a prestige class at the first opportunity. Make it so they lose something by leaving the class, even if it's just a couple spells and metamagic feats. Better skill points also helps with this.
Seeker of Undeath
01-13-06, 07:40 PM Also, for a second there I though when you said "shove the spells known up one" you meant something mean. :P :eek:
:rofl:

No...that is most certainly not what I intended. I meant...eh, you get the idea. 1 2nd-level spell known at 3rd level and so on for all the odd levels through 17th. After that continue the pattern.

:embarrass

Sorry for that misunderstanding.
Crimson_Concerto
01-13-06, 08:17 PM :eek:
:rofl:

No...that is most certainly not what I intended. I meant...eh, you get the idea.

:embarrass

Sorry for that misunderstanding.

Don't worry about it. It just looked sort of weird the first time I looked at it. :rofl: I understood what you meant after a second.

I suppose what you said could work just as well as what I described, but my group is not a big fan of editing existing classes, so even though we agreed we need to give the sorcerer a tiny boost, we don't want it to be too big.

Actually, the problem that originally compelled us to make this small change was that Sorcerers cannot qualify for some prestige classes as early as a Wizard, and we all felt this was pretty dumb. When I play with groups that are not my usual, and I'm going to ply an arcane caster, I play a Wizard simply because I absolutely HATE that stupid thing about them getting their spell levels later. Can anybody think up a logical explanation for this? :confused:
Lotus Crane
01-13-06, 08:18 PM :heehee
malignor
01-13-06, 08:42 PM If anything, I'd just give them 4+int skill points, light armor proficiency and the ability to reduce armor's somatic arcane spell failure by 5%.

That's being generous.
Nephlite
01-13-06, 08:52 PM See, Bard PHB pages 26-30

Also, "gypped" is a bigoted term since it denigrates the Romany, or "gypsies." You might as well say sorcerers are "polacks".
To quote the show Recess: "This Whomps". Sorcerors whomp mechanics. Flavor-wiose they are cool, but not by mechanics qhere they fall behind.

No real reason to make their casting held back.
Really, just give diplomacy and survival to skills.
Sorceror Surge (luke Wilder Surge) but only up to +5 not +6 usable equal to turn undead so 3 + Charisma/day. (this way you remove rnervation).
Make them learn new spell levels same speed as Wizard. (so level 3, they have 2nd level spells).

That should be enough.
PsyBomb
01-13-06, 09:04 PM err, I hope you meant 2nd level spells...

I like giving them the ability to grab Sudden Metamagic Feats every fifth level, with the 20th being Sudden Quicken. And a d6 HD (makes sense, since they are supposedly much more active)
-Defiler of Souls-
01-13-06, 09:14 PM in my opinion the main thing thats necessary is adding 2 spells per day of new level and 1 spell known for each normal spellcaster progression new spell level(aka 1 level sooner then sorcerer normally gets new spell levels)

as for the the whole reason to not prc argument: quite frankly, other then druid, no primary spellcasting class really has incentive to not prc, (the only wizard bonus feat that really matters is the first one since 1 feat/5 levels isn't enough to keep you in a class)
Nephlite
01-13-06, 09:22 PM err, I hope you meant 2nd level spells...

I like giving them the ability to grab Sudden Metamagic Feats every fifth level, with the 20th being Sudden Quicken. And a d6 HD (makes sense, since they are supposedly much more active)

Err, yeah I meant 2nd, but I see few issues with giving it at 3rd. 3d6 damage with fireball: big deal.

How can a soercor use sudden Quicken: Doe Sudden mechanics remove penalty for using metamagic that makes it a full-round action?
mouse47
01-13-06, 09:46 PM you could discuss this with more people on the thread entitled "sorcerers get the shaft" I think that sorcerer should get diplomacy as a class skill and 4+int mod skill points... at LEAST they should get these... mabe more...
mouse47
01-13-06, 09:49 PM oh i agree with kekabteaoibqhwebl (whatever his name is) on what the sorcerer should get now that i see what he said

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 01-13-06, 08:38 AM	Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror. Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die. BONUS FEATS. I'd give them metamagic like wizards, and probably a few general bonus feats as well. Metamagic improvement! Let them get a spell all metamagic'd up like an hour in advance, or give them a limited amount of instant metamagic daily. I'll update this later.
Pandaemoni 01-13-06, 08:43 AM	Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror. [list] Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die. See, Bard PHB pages 26-30 Also, "gypped" is a bigoted term since it denigrates the Romany, or "gypsies." You might as well say sorcerers are "polacks".
Sosthenes 01-13-06, 09:20 AM	Well, I'd say that spontaneous casting about cancels out the better spell selection of the Wizard. So the only thing that might warrant changes would be the bonus feats and the possibility of specialization. Anything that gives the sorcerer more bonus feats probably tilts the balance against the wizard, so I wouldn't give them more than the Wizard. Give them the same choice yet change the first level one from Scribe Scroll to Eschew Materials. Specialization can also be replaced in a rather similar way: Create some "bloodlines" or affinities (i.e. Dragon, Storm etc.) with the benefit of two known spells per spell level, but decrease general spells known per level by one. So you know more spells, yet are a little less flexible. The Fighter variant has been done by UA's Battle Sorcerer and is quite nicely balanced. Monte Cook had a Sorcerer variant who got 4 skill points, D6 HD and didn't need material components. Then he balanced the spell lists, so that spells that are increasingly useful if you can cast them quite often got bumped a level. And some of the more sophisticated spells weren't on the list anymore, as the sorcerer is more about raw power than intricately woven spells... Since the first release of 3E, there have been lots of "fixes" for the Sorcerer. Most of them are pretty minimal, as it's only slightly out of balance. Changing too much makes them too powerful (i.e. cleric-like...) (And BTW, the origin of "gypped" is a matter of debate. Some overly politically correct people would probably even object to your "denigrate" as being racial ;) )
Seeker of Undeath 01-13-06, 09:56 AM	Here's a list of things I'd like changed about the flavorful, yet mechanically gypped sorceror. Make them more fighter-y, and more rogue-y. Give 'em some neat new class skills and a few martial weapon proficiencies, maybe even a D6 HP Die. BONUS FEATS. I'd give them metamagic like wizards, and probably a few general bonus feats as well. Metamagic improvement! Let them get a spell all metamagic'd up like an hour in advance, or give them a limited amount of instant metamagic daily. I'll update this later.Hrmm... I like the good old Eschew Materials at 1st, then a bonus Metamagic or Draconic Heritage feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. As for metamagic you need to check out Arcane Preparation and the whole slew of Sudden <whatever> metamagic feats from Complete Arcane. I happen to like the idea of making Knowledge (Planes) a class skill too. That opens up the whole Fiend-Blooded PrC for them too.
Pandaemoni 01-13-06, 11:24 AM	If I had to change the sorcerer or make them balanced against wizard (in fact, I am personally more likely to nerf wizard, cleric and druid, but six of one...), then I'd change their flavor iv very different ways from the original poster's suggestions. First rule, is that the goal is not to make them better than wizards (or bards, for that matter as the original poster's suggestions seem likely to marginalize bards except in the rare cases where a player really wants to play a musician or other performer for roll paying reasons). Second rule, is that you want to give them more flavor without necessarily forcing everyone to adopt the same flavor (i.e. all sorcerers get Draconic Heritage). In that regard, what I'd consider doing is to hybridize the specialist wizards and the Draconic Heritage ideas (without actually having dragons being necessarily involved). Have each Sorcerer pick a particular kind of dragon or non-deity outsider as a "patron." (This mimics the fact the folkloric sorcerers frequently were thought to be in league with devils and demons...he devil/demon in question simply would have been the sorcerer's patron) Each patron would have an associated element (acid, fire, cold, or electricity) As a spell-like ability, the Sorcerer can cast one extra spell with the associated type of damage per day for each spell level from which he or she can cast spells. (if no such spell exists at a given spell level , the player may either, at the DM's discretion (i) invent such a spell without the associated research cost or time--it is presumed to have been invented by the character's patron or (ii) the character can choose a different elemental spell and cast it as if that spell had been subjected to the Energy Substitution feat, with no increase in spell level or in casting time). This extra spell like ability is not granted unless you gain the requisite Sorcerer level, hence jumping over to a PrC costs you list ability. The sorcerer is treated as if he were one caster level higher for purposes of determining the effects of all spells cast from his or her related element (including range, damage, save DCs, etc); The sorcerer must choose two other elements from the list and cannot learn spells that have those descriptors (he can, of course, still cast such a spells energy substituted counterpart, if one was taken as a spell-like ability). The patron demands payment for its role in guiding the sorcerer, taking a part of the life force of the character (the character selects a "character flaw" from Unearthed Arcana, without the offsetting free feat, or some other flaw approved by the DM). No magic can restore the lost piece of the character's life force (or, hence, directly remove the flaw). I have no problem adding Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill in that system. Nor with giving them Eschew Materials as a free feat. Sorcerers could also take the Draconic Heritage feat if they wanted it, but it would not be given to them for free (you don't need to be related to a dragon to have one as your patron). Sorcerers would also need to be damnably careful about identifying their patrons. If your patron is located and killed by some BBEG, you'd no longer be able to advance to any new sorcerer levels (unless you find a new patron, which would be tough given that you got your last one killed). I might need to rethink the last bullet conceoptually to allow for "good" patrons, but the hardship on a good sorcerer with a good patron should be no less than that for an evil sorcerer. IMO, that rules out having a patron who merely requires the sorcerer to go on quests. While in real life, the obligation to go on periodic quests would be a terrible price, in game it is not so bad.
Crimson_Concerto 01-13-06, 05:44 PM	The only think I think is underpowered about sorcerers is how they have to wait until even levels to get a new spell level as opposed to prepared casters who get their new spell levels at odd levels, a level earlier. To balance this, the house rule I usually suggest is to give the sorcerer 0 spells per day at the levels when prepared casters get a new spell level but they do not. What this does is allow a sorcerer to cast spells of that level if they have a sufficient CHA mod to get bonus spells per day of that level. This turns the Spells / Day table to: Level Spells 01 5/3 02 6/4 03 6/5/0 04 6/6/3 05 6/6/4/0 06 6/6/5/3 07 6/6/6/4/0 08 6/6/6/5/3 09 6/6/6/6/4/0 10 6/6/6/6/5/3 11 6/6/6/6/6/4/0 12 6/6/6/6/6/5/3 13 6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 14 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 This is enough to make them balanced, we think. They're still sub-par, but now they are standable like a fighter; slighty underpowered, but you should be able to prevail none the less if you know what you're doing and at least try to be effective. I forgot to mention that at the level when the sorcerer gets this new 0 spells per day, he knows 1 spell of that level as long as he has a sufficient CHA mod to get a bonus spell/day of that level. Otherwise, it does not know any of that level's spells.
Seeker of Undeath 01-13-06, 06:38 PM	The only think I think is underpowered about sorcerers is how they have to wait until even levels to get a new spell level as opposed to prepared casters who get their new spell levels at odd levels, a level earlier. To balance this, the house rule I usually suggest is to give the sorcerer 0 spells per day at the levels when prepared casters get a new spell level but they do not. What this does is allow a sorcerer to cast spells of that level if they have a sufficient CHA mod to get bonus spells per day of that level. This turns the Spells / Day table to: Level Spells 01 5/3 02 6/4 03 6/5/0 04 6/6/3 05 6/6/4/0 06 6/6/5/3 07 6/6/6/4/0 08 6/6/6/5/3 09 6/6/6/6/4/0 10 6/6/6/6/5/3 11 6/6/6/6/6/4/0 12 6/6/6/6/6/5/3 13 6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 14 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0 18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 This is enough to make them balanced, we think. They're still sub-par, but now they are standable like a fighter; slighty underpowered, but you should be able to prevail none the less if you know what you're doing and at least try to be effective. I forgot to mention that at the level when the sorcerer gets this new 0 spells per day, he knows 1 spell of that level as long as he has a sufficient CHA mod to get a bonus spell/day of that level. Otherwise, it does not know any of that level's spells. Did you notice what happens if you change the zeros to twos? Ah, and shove the spells known up one.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-13-06, 06:47 PM	- 4 skill points per level. - Diplomacy and UMD as class skills. - The same spell level progression as a wizard. There, fixed.
Crimson_Concerto 01-13-06, 06:49 PM	Did you notice what happens if you change the zeros to twos? Ah, and shove the spells known up one.Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know the pattern would suggest changing the 0s to 2s, but I'm not trying to make a MAJOR change here, just a sufficient one. Also, for a second there I though when you said "shove the spells known up one" you meant something mean. :P Again, I'm not trying to make the drastic changes other people are trying to make. I'm just giving them the right every other spellcasting class has of having a certain spell level by a certain time, and I think that's enough if you're playing with people who aren't massive powergamers.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-13-06, 06:58 PM	There is no reason the sorcerer shouldn't have access to their spells at the same rate every single other primary caster class does, at (spell level x 2 -1)th level.
Raxmei 01-13-06, 07:07 PM	If Sorceror had Extra Spell, among others, available as a bonus feat that would create a bit of motivation to stay in the class rather than jump ship to a prestige class at the first opportunity. Make it so they lose something by leaving the class, even if it's just a couple spells and metamagic feats. Better skill points also helps with this.
Seeker of Undeath 01-13-06, 07:40 PM	Also, for a second there I though when you said "shove the spells known up one" you meant something mean. :P :eek: :rofl: No...that is most certainly not what I intended. I meant...eh, you get the idea. 1 2nd-level spell known at 3rd level and so on for all the odd levels through 17th. After that continue the pattern. :embarrass Sorry for that misunderstanding.
Crimson_Concerto 01-13-06, 08:17 PM	:eek: :rofl: No...that is most certainly not what I intended. I meant...eh, you get the idea. :embarrass Sorry for that misunderstanding. Don't worry about it. It just looked sort of weird the first time I looked at it. :rofl: I understood what you meant after a second. I suppose what you said could work just as well as what I described, but my group is not a big fan of editing existing classes, so even though we agreed we need to give the sorcerer a tiny boost, we don't want it to be too big. Actually, the problem that originally compelled us to make this small change was that Sorcerers cannot qualify for some prestige classes as early as a Wizard, and we all felt this was pretty dumb. When I play with groups that are not my usual, and I'm going to ply an arcane caster, I play a Wizard simply because I absolutely HATE that stupid thing about them getting their spell levels later. Can anybody think up a logical explanation for this? :confused:
Lotus Crane 01-13-06, 08:18 PM	:heehee
malignor 01-13-06, 08:42 PM	If anything, I'd just give them 4+int skill points, light armor proficiency and the ability to reduce armor's somatic arcane spell failure by 5%. That's being generous.
Nephlite 01-13-06, 08:52 PM	See, Bard PHB pages 26-30 Also, "gypped" is a bigoted term since it denigrates the Romany, or "gypsies." You might as well say sorcerers are "polacks". To quote the show Recess: "This Whomps". Sorcerors whomp mechanics. Flavor-wiose they are cool, but not by mechanics qhere they fall behind. No real reason to make their casting held back. Really, just give diplomacy and survival to skills. Sorceror Surge (luke Wilder Surge) but only up to +5 not +6 usable equal to turn undead so 3 + Charisma/day. (this way you remove rnervation). Make them learn new spell levels same speed as Wizard. (so level 3, they have 2nd level spells). That should be enough.
PsyBomb 01-13-06, 09:04 PM	err, I hope you meant 2nd level spells... I like giving them the ability to grab Sudden Metamagic Feats every fifth level, with the 20th being Sudden Quicken. And a d6 HD (makes sense, since they are supposedly much more active)
-Defiler of Souls- 01-13-06, 09:14 PM	in my opinion the main thing thats necessary is adding 2 spells per day of new level and 1 spell known for each normal spellcaster progression new spell level(aka 1 level sooner then sorcerer normally gets new spell levels) as for the the whole reason to not prc argument: quite frankly, other then druid, no primary spellcasting class really has incentive to not prc, (the only wizard bonus feat that really matters is the first one since 1 feat/5 levels isn't enough to keep you in a class)
Nephlite 01-13-06, 09:22 PM	err, I hope you meant 2nd level spells... I like giving them the ability to grab Sudden Metamagic Feats every fifth level, with the 20th being Sudden Quicken. And a d6 HD (makes sense, since they are supposedly much more active) Err, yeah I meant 2nd, but I see few issues with giving it at 3rd. 3d6 damage with fireball: big deal. How can a soercor use sudden Quicken: Doe Sudden mechanics remove penalty for using metamagic that makes it a full-round action?
mouse47 01-13-06, 09:46 PM	you could discuss this with more people on the thread entitled "sorcerers get the shaft" I think that sorcerer should get diplomacy as a class skill and 4+int mod skill points... at LEAST they should get these... mabe more...
mouse47 01-13-06, 09:49 PM	oh i agree with kekabteaoibqhwebl (whatever his name is) on what the sorcerer should get now that i see what he said