Beefier Wizards? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beefier Wizards? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LimaBeanMage
04-18-08, 12:09 AM I was wondering if there were any base class variants for wizard that are slightly tougher than the standard counterpart; much like battle sorcerers as opposed to regular sorcerers.

Edit: Ok, not only variants, but possibly base classes who draw from the sorc/wiz spell list and prepare using a spellbook.
Jaxgaret
04-18-08, 12:25 AM Archivists and Death Masters qualify for your requirements.

The question is, why do you want a "beefier Wizard"? The bookish Wizard archetype is the epitome of squishiness.
M-bark
04-18-08, 10:46 AM Unearthed Arcana has the battle sorcerer. You could make a battle wizard variant.

SRD
Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die
d8.
Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.
CLASS FEATURES
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.
Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
RobbyPants
04-18-08, 12:54 PM If you're having trouble finding anything, one option is to simply take the Abjurant Champion PrC when you qualify for it at 10th level. It's a bit of a while to wait, and you need proficiency with a martial weapon and Combat Casting, but it is an option.

Otherwise, work with your DM and see if he'll make a wizard version of the battle sorcerer. The one less spell known per level could be translated into only gaining one free spell in your spellbook at odd levels instead of two. I think it'd be decent power-level wise.
Frozen Yakman
04-18-08, 01:45 PM Play as an awakened cow.
LimaBeanMage
04-18-08, 02:37 PM The question is, why do you want a "beefier Wizard"? The bookish Wizard archetype is the epitome of squishiness.

Well, I agree with you there, but I would also think of wizards as the versatility champs. In which case they are make great combinations with skillful characters like rogues. While rogue's and wizards are generally supposed to stay out of combat, rogues find themselves thrust into possible melee situations more often and can relatively deal with it. Though with wizard reducing my AB and HD, I find these situations to be increasingly difficult.

I think the death master will really do perfectly for what I want to use him for. Though, I wish there was a class that mixes rogue and wizard but doesn't keep the full squishiness of the wizard, like arcane tricksters.
JulesCARV
04-18-08, 04:12 PM I'm picturing a blue-collar wizard with a slight beer belly in denim overalls, with a sturdy belt holding all sorts of spell components. "Well, I could getcha teleported to Westfall by early tomorruh, but I don't have the right spell prepped for today. Now, as an alternative, I do have shadow walk prepped right now, so we could walk it through the shadow plane, but that'll be a trek. Your call, chief."

At any rate, bear in mind that the difference between d4 and d8 is a difference of +2 constitution and a single feat (Improved Toughness -- +1 hp/hd).

If you played a dwarf wizard with high constitution, possibly going into RoS runesmith (getting heavy armor proficiency... somehow), and took improved toughness, you'd be approximately as beefy as, say, a human wizard with d8 hd.

Being a gnome takes away the runesmith option, but it would give you +1 Ac anyway from small size.

Maybe that's not exactly what you're looking for, though -- or maybe you wanted to mix high constitution and a beefier class variant.
dman11235
04-18-08, 04:31 PM Do not just take the Battle Sorcerer and convert it, you'd need something besides the spells known problem to balance it. The spells known works for sorcerer because they can't learn more than what they get from levels. Wizards can.

Besides, you can use your spells to be less squishy. Stuff that boosts con/HP/AC works, and stuff that grants miss chances really helps (it's how wizards don't get hit).
LimaBeanMage
04-19-08, 01:35 AM Ok, so I was thinking of making a custom variant wizard. It would have a d6 HD, 6+ int skill progression, BAB of a cleric, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and to balance all of this, the prohibition of two chosen schools of magic.

Basically I thought this would be a like a specialist wizard, who normally give up two schools to make another better, but this one was giving up a second school in order to become more proficient without their magic in a hostile environment. What would you make of it in terms of balance and possible history?
Jaxgaret
04-19-08, 03:29 AM I would make it three prohibited schools of magic, or two prohibited schools but you can't select Evocation as one of them.
bkdubs123
04-19-08, 04:11 AM Ok, so I was thinking of making a custom variant wizard. It would have a d6 HD, 6+ int skill progression, BAB of a cleric, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and to balance all of this, the prohibition of two chosen schools of magic.

Basically I thought this would be a like a specialist wizard, who normally give up two schools to make another better, but this one was giving up a second school in order to become more proficient without their magic in a hostile environment. What would you make of it in terms of balance and possible history?

Two prohibited schools, Evocation nor Divination can be one of them, reduce the spells per day by 1 to a minimum of 1, reduce the spells automatically added to your spellbook each level to 1. Then, maybe, it won't be the arcane CoDzilla. What other skills are you giving it? The Beguiler list?
LimaBeanMage
04-19-08, 01:48 PM What other skills are you giving it? The Beguiler list?

None really, the only things it gains are what I listed. Though, I was suggesting giving up two schools in order to circumvent the need to give up spells per day; namely because I figured they are sacrificing certain schools in place of sacrificing a portion of their entire spell casting ability. Otherwise I would just give them no prohibited school but a larger penalty to magic advancement. Maybe I can back of the bonuses a little.

How about, 6 HD, 4+ int skill progression, cleric BAB, and three forbidden schools (but no spells per day/level penalty)?
bkdubs123
04-19-08, 02:10 PM I don't know. I mean... following precedent I think you have to limit spells per day/level. You could ban 7 schools and a Wizard that casts ONLY Conjuration or Illusion spells will still be pretty potent with the bumps to hp, skills, and BAB because it still has as many spells known and castable per day as any other Wizard (especially when you consider the Shadow Adept/Shadowcraft Mage craziness you can get into with Illusion).

I also think that if you're going to give the Wizard more skill points that it needs more skills. Right now it's an Intelligence single attribute dependant class. Basically, it's already got enough skill points to put into its various skills (which amount basically to Concentration, Knowledges, and... maybe Spellcraft if you're feeling daring).
archerpwr
04-19-08, 09:15 PM Why not be a mongrelfolk wizard? +4 con (effectively d8s) and -2 int (worse casting).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LimaBeanMage 04-18-08, 12:09 AM	I was wondering if there were any base class variants for wizard that are slightly tougher than the standard counterpart; much like battle sorcerers as opposed to regular sorcerers. Edit: Ok, not only variants, but possibly base classes who draw from the sorc/wiz spell list and prepare using a spellbook.
Jaxgaret 04-18-08, 12:25 AM	Archivists and Death Masters qualify for your requirements. The question is, why do you want a "beefier Wizard"? The bookish Wizard archetype is the epitome of squishiness.
M-bark 04-18-08, 10:46 AM	Unearthed Arcana has the battle sorcerer. You could make a battle wizard variant. SRD Battle Sorcerer The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill. Hit Die d8. Base Attack Bonus The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric. Class Skills Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list. CLASS FEATURES The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below. Weapon and Armor Proficiency At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor. Spellcasting A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance. A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any). A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
RobbyPants 04-18-08, 12:54 PM	If you're having trouble finding anything, one option is to simply take the Abjurant Champion PrC when you qualify for it at 10th level. It's a bit of a while to wait, and you need proficiency with a martial weapon and Combat Casting, but it is an option. Otherwise, work with your DM and see if he'll make a wizard version of the battle sorcerer. The one less spell known per level could be translated into only gaining one free spell in your spellbook at odd levels instead of two. I think it'd be decent power-level wise.
Frozen Yakman 04-18-08, 01:45 PM	Play as an awakened cow.
LimaBeanMage 04-18-08, 02:37 PM	The question is, why do you want a "beefier Wizard"? The bookish Wizard archetype is the epitome of squishiness. Well, I agree with you there, but I would also think of wizards as the versatility champs. In which case they are make great combinations with skillful characters like rogues. While rogue's and wizards are generally supposed to stay out of combat, rogues find themselves thrust into possible melee situations more often and can relatively deal with it. Though with wizard reducing my AB and HD, I find these situations to be increasingly difficult. I think the death master will really do perfectly for what I want to use him for. Though, I wish there was a class that mixes rogue and wizard but doesn't keep the full squishiness of the wizard, like arcane tricksters.
JulesCARV 04-18-08, 04:12 PM	I'm picturing a blue-collar wizard with a slight beer belly in denim overalls, with a sturdy belt holding all sorts of spell components. "Well, I could getcha teleported to Westfall by early tomorruh, but I don't have the right spell prepped for today. Now, as an alternative, I do have shadow walk prepped right now, so we could walk it through the shadow plane, but that'll be a trek. Your call, chief." At any rate, bear in mind that the difference between d4 and d8 is a difference of +2 constitution and a single feat (Improved Toughness -- +1 hp/hd). If you played a dwarf wizard with high constitution, possibly going into RoS runesmith (getting heavy armor proficiency... somehow), and took improved toughness, you'd be approximately as beefy as, say, a human wizard with d8 hd. Being a gnome takes away the runesmith option, but it would give you +1 Ac anyway from small size. Maybe that's not exactly what you're looking for, though -- or maybe you wanted to mix high constitution and a beefier class variant.
dman11235 04-18-08, 04:31 PM	Do not just take the Battle Sorcerer and convert it, you'd need something besides the spells known problem to balance it. The spells known works for sorcerer because they can't learn more than what they get from levels. Wizards can. Besides, you can use your spells to be less squishy. Stuff that boosts con/HP/AC works, and stuff that grants miss chances really helps (it's how wizards don't get hit).
LimaBeanMage 04-19-08, 01:35 AM	Ok, so I was thinking of making a custom variant wizard. It would have a d6 HD, 6+ int skill progression, BAB of a cleric, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and to balance all of this, the prohibition of two chosen schools of magic. Basically I thought this would be a like a specialist wizard, who normally give up two schools to make another better, but this one was giving up a second school in order to become more proficient without their magic in a hostile environment. What would you make of it in terms of balance and possible history?
Jaxgaret 04-19-08, 03:29 AM	I would make it three prohibited schools of magic, or two prohibited schools but you can't select Evocation as one of them.
bkdubs123 04-19-08, 04:11 AM	Ok, so I was thinking of making a custom variant wizard. It would have a d6 HD, 6+ int skill progression, BAB of a cleric, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, and to balance all of this, the prohibition of two chosen schools of magic. Basically I thought this would be a like a specialist wizard, who normally give up two schools to make another better, but this one was giving up a second school in order to become more proficient without their magic in a hostile environment. What would you make of it in terms of balance and possible history? Two prohibited schools, Evocation nor Divination can be one of them, reduce the spells per day by 1 to a minimum of 1, reduce the spells automatically added to your spellbook each level to 1. Then, maybe, it won't be the arcane CoDzilla. What other skills are you giving it? The Beguiler list?
LimaBeanMage 04-19-08, 01:48 PM	What other skills are you giving it? The Beguiler list? None really, the only things it gains are what I listed. Though, I was suggesting giving up two schools in order to circumvent the need to give up spells per day; namely because I figured they are sacrificing certain schools in place of sacrificing a portion of their entire spell casting ability. Otherwise I would just give them no prohibited school but a larger penalty to magic advancement. Maybe I can back of the bonuses a little. How about, 6 HD, 4+ int skill progression, cleric BAB, and three forbidden schools (but no spells per day/level penalty)?
bkdubs123 04-19-08, 02:10 PM	I don't know. I mean... following precedent I think you have to limit spells per day/level. You could ban 7 schools and a Wizard that casts ONLY Conjuration or Illusion spells will still be pretty potent with the bumps to hp, skills, and BAB because it still has as many spells known and castable per day as any other Wizard (especially when you consider the Shadow Adept/Shadowcraft Mage craziness you can get into with Illusion). I also think that if you're going to give the Wizard more skill points that it needs more skills. Right now it's an Intelligence single attribute dependant class. Basically, it's already got enough skill points to put into its various skills (which amount basically to Concentration, Knowledges, and... maybe Spellcraft if you're feeling daring).
archerpwr 04-19-08, 09:15 PM	Why not be a mongrelfolk wizard? +4 con (effectively d8s) and -2 int (worse casting).