Beefing up the Battle Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beefing up the Battle Sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RobbyPants
03-10-08, 10:04 AM The Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana is genreally though to be weaker than the sorcerer in that it doesn't get enough to make up for the loss of a spell known and a spell per day per spell level. I was thinking of various ways to beef up the class to make it more viable, as I've always liked the idea of a single-class gish.

Here are a few ideas I've had for beefing it up a bit. I would use one (or several) of these to alter the class for my games. Let me know if you think any of these are a good idea, or if you have others you'd like to add:

Good Fort save.
Intermediate Fort save (the Battle Fortitude ability of the Scout).
A bonus fighter feat every four or five levels.
Proficiency in any one martial weapon (including two-handers).
Proficiency in all martial weapons.
Cutting back on the spells known restriction a bit. Only apply it to the highest level spell known, instead of to all spell levels.
Shokorai
03-10-08, 12:34 PM The Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana is genreally though to be weaker than the sorcerer in that it doesn't get enough to make up for the loss of a spell known and a spell per day per spell level. I was thinking of various ways to beef up the class to make it more viable, as I've always liked the idea of a single-class gish.

Here are a few ideas I've had for beefing it up a bit. I would use one (or several) of these to alter the class for my games. Let me know if you think any of these are a good idea, or if you have others you'd like to add:

Good Fort save.
Intermediate Fort save (the Battle Fortitude ability of the Scout).
A bonus fighter feat every four or five levels.
Proficiency in any one martial weapon (including two-handers).
Proficiency in all martial weapons.
Cutting back on the spells known restriction a bit. Only apply it to the highest level spell known, instead of to all spell levels.

Sho likes. Sho could definitely get behind these ideas. It never did appear to Sho, too, that the limited melee aspects gained off-set the hamper to spellcasting.
RobbyPants
03-10-08, 12:49 PM Sho likes. Sho could definitely get behind these ideas. It never did appear to Sho, too, that the limited melee aspects gained off-set the hamper to spellcasting.
Obviously, I wouldn't implement all of the abilities above, but which one(s) would you use?

I'm hoping to get enough feedback to make a decent, interesting, and viable gish class.
The_Shaman
03-10-08, 01:16 PM I'd just give them the proficiency in 1 martial weapon (actually, I'd like to give them proficiency in 1+int mod martial weapons, min. 1) and try to allow them to take the Dragon Mag bloodline feats. Mind you, I think any sorcerer should be allowed to take those - it's thematic and useful without being game-breaking. I could see substituting it for Summon Familiar, even - they can spend a feat to get a familiar back if they want it, which imo isn't a bad idea.

I'd also think about a bonus feat progression every 5 levels, but, again, I think all sorcerers should get that.
serow_#R
03-10-08, 01:27 PM I'd give them Prof with all Martial Weapons, at the least.
And a bonus Fighter feat at 5, 10, 15, 20 as well.
StevenO
03-10-08, 02:06 PM Leave it alone.

Ok, maybe I'd allow any single weapon but that really is as far as I'd go.

If you aren't a slave to the single class concept the Battle Sorcerer probably one of the better magic using classes for a wide variety of PrC. Abjurant Champion is almost a no-brainer and you can meet the prereqs in seven levels without giving up any additional casting. With a weapon proficiency expansion to all martial weapons Eldritch Knight becomes a very easy entry as well. If you aren't caught up in needing the world's greatest spellcasting the BS is the best for getting spells going into Arcane Archer which makes the AA's Imbue Arrow more useful. The BS also works well in a Dragon Disciple build as four levels gets you 2nd level slots which the DD can expand upon.
LoneFlame
03-10-08, 02:53 PM The problem with Battle Sorcerer lies not in the changes to Sorcerer, but Sorcerer itself.

Sorcerer itself should have some sort of bonus feats(even if they are just metamgic or item creation feats) at lvs 5, 10, 15, & 20 anyway. That was a big flaw in the class's design, no incentive to not prestige out of it the first chance you got.

Anyway. I'd adjust the Weapon Proficiency, cause Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage doesn't restrict on it(except that it says that it must be a martial melee weapon) & even gives you weapon focus with it, so why shouldn't Battle Sorcerer's weapon proficiency be for any 1 martial melee weapon.
RobbyPants
03-10-08, 08:01 PM It seems like what most people suggest is to go for the fighter feats every five levels and make the martial weapon proficiency either any martial weapon, or all martial weapons.

The bonus feats might be a good idea, at least in my games, as I've given the regular sorcerer bonus feats every five levels, plus one at first (the choices are Eschew Materials at first, and metamagic or item creation after that, or a heritage feat at first and every five after that). Of course, that just helps keep them on par with sorcerers in my games, so they didn't really gain anything.

So, if I give my normal sorcerers bonus feats as well, perhaps I should give the battle sorcerer proficiency in all martial weapons instead of just any one.

If you aren't a slave to the single class concept the Battle Sorcerer probably one of the better magic using classes for a wide variety of PrC. Abjurant Champion is almost a no-brainer and you can meet the prereqs in seven levels without giving up any additional casting.
True. About the only thing you give up is the wasted feat on Combat Casting.

With a weapon proficiency expansion to all martial weapons Eldritch Knight becomes a very easy entry as well.
Actually, the Eldritch Knight is a bit of a trade. You do get full BAB for ten levels, which is nice, but you lose a caster level and your hit dice drop from d8 to d6. So, in the long run, your gain is +3 BAB and a bonus feat, compared to the loss of a caster level and 10 HP on average.
ninjarabbit
03-10-08, 09:57 PM I think the battlesorcerer is fine the way it is. It's a balanced single class gish, it's actually quite comparable to the psy warrior except you get 9th level spells instead of bonus feat.
The_Shaman
03-10-08, 10:53 PM Well, at the end of ends a class with access to Polymorph and a d8 HD isn't that bad, I can give you that ;) Still, I think the sorc and the b-sorc could use a minor buff.
RobbyPants
03-11-08, 08:26 AM Well, at the end of ends a class with access to Polymorph and a d8 HD isn't that bad, I can give you that ;) Still, I think the sorc and the b-sorc could use a minor buff.
Yeah, Polymorph (and its relatives) are pretty abusable. I've yet to figure out what I want to do about them. The simple solution is to get rid of them. The harder solution is to nerf them in some way.

Luckily, so far, none of my players have realized the abuse-tasticness of those spells. It took me a while to convince one of the players that there are better spells than fireball.
teshen
03-11-08, 10:21 AM Leave it alone. . .
I think the battlesorcerer is fine the way it is. It's a balanced single class gish, it's actually quite comparable to the psy warrior except you get 9th level spells instead of bonus feat.
Agreed. The loss of one spell slot per level leaves them with as many castable spells as a specialist wizard. And although one spell known less per level hurts a sorcerer, he's going to focus on casting to fight rather than casting to cover other problems the party will encounter. Besides, most will prc anyway... although, that's not an excuse for a base class to be so boring... as far as features go, that is.

I'd just give them the proficiency in 1 martial weapon (actually, I'd like to give them proficiency in 1+int mod martial weapons, min. 1) and try to allow them to take the Dragon Mag bloodline feats. Mind you, I think any sorcerer should be allowed to take those - it's thematic and useful without being game-breaking. I could see substituting it for Summon Familiar, even - they can spend a feat to get a familiar back if they want it, which imo isn't a bad idea. . . I'm leaning toward the battle fortitude and 1 + int mod in martial weapons. And that idea of substituting a bloodline feat for familiar is a good one as well... it more or less nixes the loss of one spell known.

If you make a battle sorcerer with those minor changes I think the class would be fairly competative. Even moreso with stalwart sorcerer and obtain familiar feat. The familiar will have substantially higher hit points compared to a normal familiar and have an average base attack... between that and the share spells feature, meaning when you buff for battle your familiar does too, I can see a normally weak familiar being really mean, especially since he can occupy the same same square as you.

So go throw your ferret in their face and cut their legs off.
ninjarabbit
03-11-08, 03:48 PM Yeah, Polymorph (and its relatives) are pretty abusable. I've yet to figure out what I want to do about them. The simple solution is to get rid of them. The harder solution is to nerf them in some way.

My solution was to make alter self a 3rd level spell and polymorph a 6th level spell for wizards and sorcerers, at 2nd and 4th levels repsecitvely those spells are almosat no-brainers.
RobbyPants
03-11-08, 08:55 PM My solution was to make alter self a 3rd level spell and polymorph a 6th level spell for wizards and sorcerers, at 2nd and 4th levels repsecitvely those spells are almosat no-brainers.
Did that seem to work pretty well, or were you not able to play-test it? The only other thing I'm worried about is Shapechange, although, at that level, things go pretty crazy anyway.
ninjarabbit
03-12-08, 03:47 PM Did that seem to work pretty well, or were you not able to play-test it? The only other thing I'm worried about is Shapechange, although, at that level, things go pretty crazy anyway.

It actually worked out pretty well.

Honestly alter self is better than most 3rd level spells since it can give you a signifcant bonus to natural armor, natural attacks, and different movement modes like flying and burrowing. It's like barkskin, disguise self, and fly all rolled into one.

Ditto on polymorph, it's hands down the best overall 4th level spell. Those spells are just too good for the level that they're at. By making them 3rd and 6th levels spells it makes it so that those spells aren't no-brainers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 03-10-08, 10:04 AM	The Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana is genreally though to be weaker than the sorcerer in that it doesn't get enough to make up for the loss of a spell known and a spell per day per spell level. I was thinking of various ways to beef up the class to make it more viable, as I've always liked the idea of a single-class gish. Here are a few ideas I've had for beefing it up a bit. I would use one (or several) of these to alter the class for my games. Let me know if you think any of these are a good idea, or if you have others you'd like to add: Good Fort save. Intermediate Fort save (the Battle Fortitude ability of the Scout). A bonus fighter feat every four or five levels. Proficiency in any one martial weapon (including two-handers). Proficiency in all martial weapons. Cutting back on the spells known restriction a bit. Only apply it to the highest level spell known, instead of to all spell levels.
Shokorai 03-10-08, 12:34 PM	The Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVari antBattleSorcerer) from Unearthed Arcana is genreally though to be weaker than the sorcerer in that it doesn't get enough to make up for the loss of a spell known and a spell per day per spell level. I was thinking of various ways to beef up the class to make it more viable, as I've always liked the idea of a single-class gish. Here are a few ideas I've had for beefing it up a bit. I would use one (or several) of these to alter the class for my games. Let me know if you think any of these are a good idea, or if you have others you'd like to add: Good Fort save. Intermediate Fort save (the Battle Fortitude ability of the Scout). A bonus fighter feat every four or five levels. Proficiency in any one martial weapon (including two-handers). Proficiency in all martial weapons. Cutting back on the spells known restriction a bit. Only apply it to the highest level spell known, instead of to all spell levels. Sho likes. Sho could definitely get behind these ideas. It never did appear to Sho, too, that the limited melee aspects gained off-set the hamper to spellcasting.
RobbyPants 03-10-08, 12:49 PM	Sho likes. Sho could definitely get behind these ideas. It never did appear to Sho, too, that the limited melee aspects gained off-set the hamper to spellcasting. Obviously, I wouldn't implement all of the abilities above, but which one(s) would you use? I'm hoping to get enough feedback to make a decent, interesting, and viable gish class.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 01:16 PM	I'd just give them the proficiency in 1 martial weapon (actually, I'd like to give them proficiency in 1+int mod martial weapons, min. 1) and try to allow them to take the Dragon Mag bloodline feats. Mind you, I think any sorcerer should be allowed to take those - it's thematic and useful without being game-breaking. I could see substituting it for Summon Familiar, even - they can spend a feat to get a familiar back if they want it, which imo isn't a bad idea. I'd also think about a bonus feat progression every 5 levels, but, again, I think all sorcerers should get that.
serow_#R 03-10-08, 01:27 PM	I'd give them Prof with all Martial Weapons, at the least. And a bonus Fighter feat at 5, 10, 15, 20 as well.
StevenO 03-10-08, 02:06 PM	Leave it alone. Ok, maybe I'd allow any single weapon but that really is as far as I'd go. If you aren't a slave to the single class concept the Battle Sorcerer probably one of the better magic using classes for a wide variety of PrC. Abjurant Champion is almost a no-brainer and you can meet the prereqs in seven levels without giving up any additional casting. With a weapon proficiency expansion to all martial weapons Eldritch Knight becomes a very easy entry as well. If you aren't caught up in needing the world's greatest spellcasting the BS is the best for getting spells going into Arcane Archer which makes the AA's Imbue Arrow more useful. The BS also works well in a Dragon Disciple build as four levels gets you 2nd level slots which the DD can expand upon.
LoneFlame 03-10-08, 02:53 PM	The problem with Battle Sorcerer lies not in the changes to Sorcerer, but Sorcerer itself. Sorcerer itself should have some sort of bonus feats(even if they are just metamgic or item creation feats) at lvs 5, 10, 15, & 20 anyway. That was a big flaw in the class's design, no incentive to not prestige out of it the first chance you got. Anyway. I'd adjust the Weapon Proficiency, cause Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage doesn't restrict on it(except that it says that it must be a martial melee weapon) & even gives you weapon focus with it, so why shouldn't Battle Sorcerer's weapon proficiency be for any 1 martial melee weapon.
RobbyPants 03-10-08, 08:01 PM	It seems like what most people suggest is to go for the fighter feats every five levels and make the martial weapon proficiency either any martial weapon, or all martial weapons. The bonus feats might be a good idea, at least in my games, as I've given the regular sorcerer bonus feats every five levels, plus one at first (the choices are Eschew Materials at first, and metamagic or item creation after that, or a heritage feat at first and every five after that). Of course, that just helps keep them on par with sorcerers in my games, so they didn't really gain anything. So, if I give my normal sorcerers bonus feats as well, perhaps I should give the battle sorcerer proficiency in all martial weapons instead of just any one. If you aren't a slave to the single class concept the Battle Sorcerer probably one of the better magic using classes for a wide variety of PrC. Abjurant Champion is almost a no-brainer and you can meet the prereqs in seven levels without giving up any additional casting. True. About the only thing you give up is the wasted feat on Combat Casting. With a weapon proficiency expansion to all martial weapons Eldritch Knight becomes a very easy entry as well. Actually, the Eldritch Knight is a bit of a trade. You do get full BAB for ten levels, which is nice, but you lose a caster level and your hit dice drop from d8 to d6. So, in the long run, your gain is +3 BAB and a bonus feat, compared to the loss of a caster level and 10 HP on average.
ninjarabbit 03-10-08, 09:57 PM	I think the battlesorcerer is fine the way it is. It's a balanced single class gish, it's actually quite comparable to the psy warrior except you get 9th level spells instead of bonus feat.
The_Shaman 03-10-08, 10:53 PM	Well, at the end of ends a class with access to Polymorph and a d8 HD isn't that bad, I can give you that ;) Still, I think the sorc and the b-sorc could use a minor buff.
RobbyPants 03-11-08, 08:26 AM	Well, at the end of ends a class with access to Polymorph and a d8 HD isn't that bad, I can give you that ;) Still, I think the sorc and the b-sorc could use a minor buff. Yeah, Polymorph (and its relatives) are pretty abusable. I've yet to figure out what I want to do about them. The simple solution is to get rid of them. The harder solution is to nerf them in some way. Luckily, so far, none of my players have realized the abuse-tasticness of those spells. It took me a while to convince one of the players that there are better spells than fireball.
teshen 03-11-08, 10:21 AM	Leave it alone. . . I think the battlesorcerer is fine the way it is. It's a balanced single class gish, it's actually quite comparable to the psy warrior except you get 9th level spells instead of bonus feat. Agreed. The loss of one spell slot per level leaves them with as many castable spells as a specialist wizard. And although one spell known less per level hurts a sorcerer, he's going to focus on casting to fight rather than casting to cover other problems the party will encounter. Besides, most will prc anyway... although, that's not an excuse for a base class to be so boring... as far as features go, that is. I'd just give them the proficiency in 1 martial weapon (actually, I'd like to give them proficiency in 1+int mod martial weapons, min. 1) and try to allow them to take the Dragon Mag bloodline feats. Mind you, I think any sorcerer should be allowed to take those - it's thematic and useful without being game-breaking. I could see substituting it for Summon Familiar, even - they can spend a feat to get a familiar back if they want it, which imo isn't a bad idea. . . I'm leaning toward the battle fortitude and 1 + int mod in martial weapons. And that idea of substituting a bloodline feat for familiar is a good one as well... it more or less nixes the loss of one spell known. If you make a battle sorcerer with those minor changes I think the class would be fairly competative. Even moreso with stalwart sorcerer and obtain familiar feat. The familiar will have substantially higher hit points compared to a normal familiar and have an average base attack... between that and the share spells feature, meaning when you buff for battle your familiar does too, I can see a normally weak familiar being really mean, especially since he can occupy the same same square as you. So go throw your ferret in their face and cut their legs off.
ninjarabbit 03-11-08, 03:48 PM	Yeah, Polymorph (and its relatives) are pretty abusable. I've yet to figure out what I want to do about them. The simple solution is to get rid of them. The harder solution is to nerf them in some way. My solution was to make alter self a 3rd level spell and polymorph a 6th level spell for wizards and sorcerers, at 2nd and 4th levels repsecitvely those spells are almosat no-brainers.
RobbyPants 03-11-08, 08:55 PM	My solution was to make alter self a 3rd level spell and polymorph a 6th level spell for wizards and sorcerers, at 2nd and 4th levels repsecitvely those spells are almosat no-brainers. Did that seem to work pretty well, or were you not able to play-test it? The only other thing I'm worried about is Shapechange, although, at that level, things go pretty crazy anyway.
ninjarabbit 03-12-08, 03:47 PM	Did that seem to work pretty well, or were you not able to play-test it? The only other thing I'm worried about is Shapechange, although, at that level, things go pretty crazy anyway. It actually worked out pretty well. Honestly alter self is better than most 3rd level spells since it can give you a signifcant bonus to natural armor, natural attacks, and different movement modes like flying and burrowing. It's like barkskin, disguise self, and fly all rolled into one. Ditto on polymorph, it's hands down the best overall 4th level spell. Those spells are just too good for the level that they're at. By making them 3rd and 6th levels spells it makes it so that those spells aren't no-brainers.