Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luca 05-25-06, 09:39 AM	How can a Beguiler acquire the ability to cast "Mage Hand" in order to became an Arcane Trickster?
Nausicaa 05-25-06, 09:42 AM	Extra spell feat in CA
Luca 05-25-06, 09:50 AM	Extra spell feat in CA This Feat can grant spells outside the class list?
Nausicaa 05-25-06, 09:52 AM	Yes, of course! ;)
Votan 05-25-06, 09:56 AM	This Feat can grant spells outside the class list? Because of the wording at the bottom, it has been interpreted by many people as possibly allowing this (when it discusses spells that can't be acquired or researched by a wizard). It doesn't specifically allow this which has also led to the (also reasonable) camp that you would need a more explicit set of wording to break a rule using a feat. It's an endless debate. Another alternative is the feat Spell Hand from the Complete Arcane which gives you three cantrips each once per day (Mage Hand, open/close and Tensoer's Floating disk).
Nausicaa 05-25-06, 10:00 AM	Because of the wording at the bottom, it has been interpreted by many people as possibly allowing this (when it discusses spells that can't be acquired or researched by a wizard). It doesn't specifically allow this which has also led to the (also reasonable) camp that you would need a more explicit set of wording to break a rule using a feat. Well, if it doesn't give extra-list spells, it is a bit useless IMO.. a totally waster feat slot °°
Votan 05-25-06, 10:13 AM	Well, if it doesn't give extra-list spells, it is a bit useless IMO.. a totally waster feat slot °° Oh, with respect to wizards, I completely agree. However, skill focus (craft) is also a possible use of a feat too so that isn't decisive. And a Sorcerer can still make some use of this feat if it is list only as spells known drives that class and there might be a level where the character concept just requires one more spell. It's just good to mark out where there is broad disagreement about mechanics because individual DMs will rule differently. Not that this can't happen anyway, but it's less likely with well established things (like toughness adds to hit points) then with subtle points (badly worded feats). My conclusion is that we need clarifying errata for frequently asked rules questions like this. I don't overly care about the answer but it makes a HUGE difference in builds. For example, if allowed then Paladins and Ranger should give serious consideration to Extra Spell [Wraithstrike] to make their spell slots super-useful. If this isn't allowed I'll build an effective character in a different way but it will change the way I build characters if I know this (for example, power attack is a much better feat if you can convert all melee attacks to touch attacks with a swift action 15+ times per day).
Luca 05-25-06, 10:27 AM	Another alternative is the feat Spell Hand from the Complete Arcane which gives you three cantrips each once per day (Mage Hand, open/close and Tensoer's Floating disk). But as spell-like abilities. I don't think they "can be cast"...
Todd 05-25-06, 10:44 AM	How can a Beguiler acquire the ability to cast "Mage Hand" in order to became an Arcane Trickster? The Spell Hand feat from the Complete Arcane will do the trick for sure regardless of your stance on Extra Spell. However I have to say that just going Beguiler 20 is probably better than any combo with Arcane Trickster.
Nausicaa 05-25-06, 10:45 AM	For example, if allowed then Paladins and Ranger should give serious consideration to Extra Spell [Wraithstrike] to make their spell slots super-useful. If this isn't allowed I'll build an effective character in a different way but it will change the way I build characters if I know this (for example, power attack is a much better feat if you can convert all melee attacks to touch attacks with a swift action 15+ times per day). Player's brokeness always comes out XD.. in my campaign it is one of the few spells i banned. In another campaign DMed by my boyfriend (the FR campaign in my signature) it is not banned and is a real doom for gameplay.
periscope 05-25-06, 12:19 PM	You could just use the Hand neckalce from the DMG that allows mage hand at will.
Nausicaa 05-25-06, 12:31 PM	You could just use the Hand neckalce from the DMG that allows mage hand at will. Using object for PrC entry requirement is not possible..
Witch 05-25-06, 01:15 PM	Using object for PrC entry requirement is not possible.. Wrong. Items can be used to qualify for Pr C entry just fine. Nothing says they can't. The only issue is that I think the hand doesn't allow you to actually cast the spell.
gorfnad the shiznit 05-25-06, 02:54 PM	Magic Training is another feat that will allow you to cast mage hand (as well as two other cantrips of your choice)