Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 10:16 AM	I was wondering what you think of the beguiler's special ability of cloaked casting, which raises the saving throw and gives a bonus on penetrating spell resistance when the beguiler casts against a creature that would be denied its Dexterity bonus. I had two thoughts: 1. First it seemed to me that automatically allowing the beguiler at 20th level to overcome the creature's spell resistance grants too much power. It seems like a more balanced idea to double the bonus from +2 (at 8th level) to +4 the way that the ability doubles the bonus to DC from +1 at 2nd level to +2 at 14th level. That way also the beguiler could continue to improve spell penetration at epic levels. 2. Then it occured to me that you don't need to be aware of an attack to gain the benefits of spell resistance (p. 298 DMG, last sentence of the first paragraph under "Spell Resistance"). So why should some power suddenly make your spell resistance weaker just because you're unaware of the attack? 3. Finally it occurred to me that you don't need to be aware of an attack to get a saving throw either, so why should some power suddenly make your saving throw harder just because you're not aware of it? So am I the only one who sees any problem with the ability? Do you: A. Think it's fine just as it is; B. Think that the power at 20th level should be changed from automatically overcoming SR to merely increasing the bonus to overcome SR; or C. Think the whole power is broken and should be eliminated (or perhaps replaced with something else)? Thanks!
Puca 08-04-06, 10:59 AM	I dont typically play at levels much beyond 16-17. So let me ask this: just how often at those levels are you able to catch someone without their Dex? At first glamce, automatically overcoming SR looked so grossly overpowered to me that my gut reaction was "no frickin' way" but then I had to admit that I dont really have a solid feel for how often the ability could ever come into play. At high levels, it seems like rogues struggle for SA, but then thats less an opportunity issue than a not-subject-to issue. I just dont really know. If it is going to be every single encounter, multiple times, then hell no. But if it is like once every five or six encounters? Is that a big deal? Im sure you know more about high level play like that than I, so, from a balance perspective, how often will this happen in your campaign?
Black_Puffin 08-04-06, 11:12 AM	Beguilers are in the habit of maipulation, and I've played two of them so far. To catch your opponent off guard is tricky when casting a spell. Most of the them I've had to catch them with a feint. To do that I had to sacrifice two feats for combat expertise and imp feint, to make my feint a swift action, and pour skill points incessantly into Bluff and skill focus it when I could spare the feat. I haven't taken persuasive yet. Against foes with high sense motive it's useless. But not many straight out of the MM foes with SR have high sense motive. Also look at the spells you can cast, they all specialize in either rendering foes under control or nonlethal damage, except for shadow evocation and conjuration, but the chance for considerably less damage is not worth it. And are you really going to charm or dominate the tarrasque? (unless you are evil, I think not. Even so, High will save) I think it should stay, it's not too useful or powerful at the level it's given.
Witchblade 08-04-06, 11:16 AM	I had two thoughts: I count 3, but maybe that's me. :P 1. First it seemed to me that automatically allowing the beguiler at 20th level to overcome the creature's spell resistance grants too much power. It seems like a more balanced idea to double the bonus from +2 (at 8th level) to +4 the way that the ability doubles the bonus to DC from +1 at 2nd level to +2 at 14th level. That way also the beguiler could continue to improve spell penetration at epic levels. Just making it a +4 would be a pretty major nerf, IMO. I think the power is fine as is. 2. Then it occured to me that you don't need to be aware of an attack to gain the benefits of spell resistance (p. 298 DMG, last sentence of the first paragraph under "Spell Resistance"). So why should some power suddenly make your spell resistance weaker just because you're unaware of the attack? Well, that's the special power. It doesn't have to be perfectly logical, it's DnD. The Beguiler just has a power that makes his spells more potent when his enemies are unaware. He's specialized in attacking unaware opponents, so that's where his power lies. 3. Finally it occurred to me that you don't need to be aware of an attack to get a saving throw either, so why should some power suddenly make your saving throw harder just because you're not aware of it? Same as 2. A. Think it's fine just as it is; Yeah, I guess. Haven't tested it though, but it seems like a strong, but not broken, power. C. Think the whole power is broken and should be eliminated (or perhaps replaced with something else)?No, definitely not. The power really belongs to the Beguiler and makes it special. It also synergyzes well with his other powers. I think the Beguiler's total array of powers is a bit too strong though. I mean, the spellcasting is just totally awesome. Like a sorcerer with a LOT of spells known, though a bit focused. 6+Int (which is high!) SP: beats the rogue anytime, they even have Trapfinding. UMD in addition to his other spells. Advanced Learning, take the shadow spells and you're all set. They also have better HD, better weapons and better class features than the sorcerer, not to mention they can cast spells while wearing armor. I use these houserules (may be a bit harsh, but not sure.) : Player’s Handbook II - The Beguiler loses Advanced Learning, Use Magic Device as a class skill and the spells Timestop and Power Word Kill. Also, its spellcasting ability is now based on Charisma. They get Force of Personality as a bonus feat on first level and Weird on their spells known list as a 9th level spell.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 11:45 AM	I dont typically play at levels much beyond 16-17. So let me ask this: just how often at those levels are you able to catch someone without their Dex? At first glamce, automatically overcoming SR looked so grossly overpowered to me that my gut reaction was "no frickin' way" but then I had to admit that I dont really have a solid feel for how often the ability could ever come into play. At high levels, it seems like rogues struggle for SA, but then thats less an opportunity issue than a not-subject-to issue. I just dont really know. If it is going to be every single encounter, multiple times, then hell no. But if it is like once every five or six encounters? Is that a big deal? Im sure you know more about high level play like that than I, so, from a balance perspective, how often will this happen in your campaign? Any time you successfully feint in combat using the Bluff skill you deny your opponent a Dex bonus, even if the opponent has the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. The beguiler gets the surprise casting ability, which, at 6th level, allows him to feint as a move action (instead of a standard action). That means that at 20th level the beguiler can potentially feint against the same opponent every round, and thus ignore SR every round. If, as Black_Puffin mentions, the beguiler also learns the Improved Feint feat (which combined with surprise casting reduces the feint time to a swift action), he can even move and feint against a new target every round. Then of course there's the standard times when characters lose their Dex bonus, such as when they're climbing or flat-footed. For a climbing opponent or flat-footed opponent without Improved Uncanny Dodge, the beguiler wouldn't even have to roll an opposed check but would automatically ignore the opponent's SR. So I'd expect catching an opponent without Dex bonus to come up quite often.
Milo HoBo 08-04-06, 11:57 AM	...To do that I had to sacrifice two feats for combat expertise and imp feint, to make my feint a swift action...This would take an addition two feats. Improved Feint makes feinting a move action. Wild Talent lets one take Psionic feats. Psionic Feint lets one feint as a swift action if one expends one's psionic focus. I think it's a nice ability, yes, but they will hardly get to enjoy it before you wrap up the campaign. Unless you go epic, which, you won't have as much to worry about with a Beguiler as opposed to a wizard. If you find it too powerful, it might be for your campaign, but this ability can't top what clerics, druids, or wizards are doing. I'm seriously more worried about rogues getting the shaft from a Beguiler's skill points and casting stat. I would use the Charisma as the casting stat and maybe, maybe, allow a Warmage to use Int instead. Hope things go well.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 12:19 PM	This would take an addition two feats. Improved Feint makes feinting a move action. Wild Talent lets one take Psionic feats. Psionic Feint lets one feint as a swift action if one expends one's psionic focus. The beguiler gets surprise casting, which at 6th level allows him to feint as a move action. If you also have Improved Feint, surprise casting allows you to feint as a swift action.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 01:11 PM	Any time you successfully feint in combat using the Bluff skill you deny your opponent a Dex bonus, even if the opponent has the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. The beguiler gets the surprise casting ability, which, at 6th level, allows him to feint as a move action (instead of a standard action). That means that at 20th level the beguiler can potentially feint against the same opponent every round, and thus ignore SR every round. If, as Black_Puffin mentions, the beguiler also learns the Improved Feint feat (which combined with surprise casting reduces the feint time to a swift action), he can even move and feint against a new target every round. Then of course there's the standard times when characters lose their Dex bonus, such as when they're climbing or flat-footed. For a climbing opponent or flat-footed opponent without Improved Uncanny Dodge, the beguiler wouldn't even have to roll an opposed check but would automatically ignore the opponent's SR. So I'd expect catching an opponent without Dex bonus to come up quite often. Oh heck! I completely forgot that a creature loses its Dex bonus against an invisible creature. A beguiler gets not only invisibility but greater invisibility, so a 20th-level beguiler probably will run around invisible much of the time in combat, making virtually every spell he casts automatically overcome spell resistance.
Milo HoBo 08-04-06, 01:16 PM	The beguiler gets surprise casting, which at 6th level allows him to feint as a move action. If you also have Improved Feint, surprise casting allows you to feint as a swift action. That is cool. I didn't see that in my friend's book. The invisibily and improved has to help as well.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 08:41 PM	That is cool. I didn't see that in my friend's book. The invisibily and improved has to help as well. Sure it's cool. Maybe too cool. A 20th-level beguiler basically ignores virtually every creature's SR all the time (by using greater invisibility). That seems a little much. At best I could see reducing the ability from automatically ignoring SR to raising the bonus to overcome SR from +2 to +4.
Eela6 08-04-06, 08:51 PM	A ninth-level Wizard ignores SR. Wall of Force. Cloudkill. Or, to your liking, Forcecage and the same. It's two levels higher, but there's no save, no saving throw, and it lasts two hours a level, stays around in an Antimagic field, and is immune to dispelling. Most enemies can't do jack to it, and then Cloudkill comes along and drains their Con to 0.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 08:58 PM	I'm seriously more worried about rogues getting the shaft from a Beguiler's skill points and casting stat. I would use the Charisma as the casting stat and maybe, maybe, allow a Warmage to use Int instead. I took a look at the beguiler's list of spells and I could see maybe culling the spells not obviously related to confusion and misdirection: 1st: comprehend languages, mage armor, and expeditious retreat 2nd: knock and spider climb 3rd: haste and maybe dispel magic 4th: maybe freedom of movement 5th: Rary's telepathic bond and sending 6th: maybe greater dispel magic and maybe shadow walk 7th: ethereal jaunt and maybe phase door 8th: etherealness, power word kill I would actually keep time stop as it seems like a natural for comfounding opponents. I'm not actually likely to cull the spells, as I've become increasingly less enamored of house rules, and so far nobody wants to play a beguiler, but these seem like spells that don't really belong with the beguiler.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 09:01 PM	A ninth-level Wizard ignores SR. Wall of Force. Cloudkill. Or, to your liking, Forcecage and the same. It's two levels higher, but there's no save, no saving throw, and it lasts two hours a level, stays around in an Antimagic field, and is immune to dispelling. Most enemies can't do jack to it, and then Cloudkill comes along and drains their Con to 0. A ninth-level wizard doesn't ignore SR. These spells don't allow SR regardless of who casts them. A 20th-level beguiler can regularly ignore the SR when using spells that allow SR.
Eela6 08-04-06, 09:11 PM	Possibly you mistake my meaning. The point was that it doesn't *matter*. If you want to know more on the subject, there's thousands of threads that outline this (I exaggerate, but still). Fighters need more feats part 1, for instance. There are tons of spells that ignore SR. Damage spells (Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloudkill) Delay/Utility Spells (Forcecage, Obscuring Mist). At level twenty, you're dealing with enemies that have Blasphemy (CL 20) as a Spell-Like ability - the ability to stop anyone within range with HD < 21 from doing anything. This same enemy can summon a duplicate of itself. Therefore, one of them can stop *all* the enemies from doing *anything*, unless they happen to have one of the few effects that boost Hit Dice (Inspire Greatness is one). The other can then clean up with it's at-will dominate effects and powerful attacks. In fact, they can keep going until they've sundered or outwaited every single item/spell that provides protection from Dominate (or knock you out if the must to remove it), because they don't eat, drink, or sleep, and then Dominate you, Blaspheming/Recasting every couple days as needed. Compared to a Balor, does that ability seem so powerful? But I won't continue.
CelestialBarbarian 08-04-06, 09:20 PM	Possibly you mistake my meaning. The point was that it doesn't *matter*. If you want to know more on the subject, there's thousands of threads that outline this (I exaggerate, but still). Fighters need more feats part 1, for instance. There are tons of spells that ignore SR. Damage spells (Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloudkill) Delay/Utility Spells (Forcecage, Obscuring Mist). At level twenty, you're dealing with enemies that have Blasphemy (CL 20) as a Spell-Like ability - the ability to stop anyone within range with HD < 21 from doing anything. This same enemy can summon a duplicate of itself. Therefore, one of them can stop *all* the enemies from doing *anything*, unless they happen to have one of the few effects that boost Hit Dice (Inspire Greatness is one). The other can then clean up with it's at-will dominate effects and powerful attacks. In fact, they can keep going until they've sundered or outwaited every single item/spell that provides protection from Dominate (or knock you out if the must to remove it), because they don't eat, drink, or sleep, and then Dominate you, Blaspheming/Recasting every couple days as needed. Compared to a Balor, does that ability seem so powerful? But I won't continue. I've both played in and run high-level campaigns and seen spell resistance make a profound difference, strategies to the contrary notwithstanding.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-04-06, 09:25 PM	Any caster can automatically overcome all CR appropriate SR with these 3 feats: Spell Penetration Greater Spell Penetration Arcane Mastery Automatically overcome SR=your CL+4, or more if you have other CL boosters...
Anauroch 08-05-06, 04:24 AM	I agree with Eela6. Being able to overcome SR at level 20 does not *matter* that much. Greater Invisibility? Level 20 characters will regularly meet CR 20 monsters/opponents and even up to CR 24 is possible! How many of them won't be able to laugh at invisibility?! :P So if the Beguiler doesn't automatically get to overcome their SR with greater invisibility, then he has to use the feint action (which CAN be a swift action with combat expertise and improved feint => this would mean NO other swift actions that round as per the RAW). Even if the Beguiler would be able to overcome SR every time without using spells or feats - his spell selection is not that of a wizard. If the SR is so high that the wizard cannot easily overcome it, he'll just have to use spells that bypass SR. He's got the spell selection to do that. Oh, whatever - if your experience shows you that the Beguiler with his spells is too strong with his 20th level ability, then just change it. Without any gaming experience myself I'd say leave it as is, though. ;)
Yue Ryong 08-07-06, 12:20 PM	I'm curious. Does Cloaked Casting allow you to bypass the 'Magic Immunity' of Golems?
Puca 08-07-06, 12:56 PM	Any time you successfully feint in combat using the Bluff skill you deny your opponent a Dex bonus, even if the opponent has the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. The beguiler gets the surprise casting ability, which, at 6th level, allows him to feint as a move action (instead of a standard action). That means that at 20th level the beguiler can potentially feint against the same opponent every round, and thus ignore SR every round. I know how it works. The key word is “potentially.” Opponents get to add their BAB to their Sense Motive. With full BAB, even a few ranks in Sense Motive, you will never really need to worry. Also (and this might be contradicted in some way by the Beguilers ability: I dont have to book in front of me) but you need to be in melee to feint, which then may very likely provoke an AoO. Im sure it works better in other campaigns than mine, but feint is never 100%, or even close. Oh heck! I completely forgot that a creature loses its Dex bonus against an invisible creature. A beguiler gets not only invisibility but greater invisibility, so a 20th-level beguiler probably will run around invisible much of the time in combat, making virtually every spell he casts automatically overcome spell resistance.At level 20. Again, Im not really experienced at that level of play, but it would strike me that with all the ways to get See Invisibility, you wouldnt have that many BBEGs who would be fooled here. Im not saying that it isnt powerful or even overpowered. I just dont know. It does strike me that things like “automatically overcome SR every round” might be a bit overstated. At least in my experience.
Black_Puffin 08-07-06, 04:15 PM	I think that the power to overcome flatfooted foes at 20 is fine. If it was a lower level power, yeah, it's broken. Are you really going to waste a spell (invisibility) to overcome SR? You'd essentially need two spell slots to cast one spell. You wouldn't have that many to spare. The beguiler spell list is intentionally narrow and spells per day are low to limit it's effectiveness, even if it overcomes SR every round. I personally think there's a few spells in the Spell Comp and D20 modern Web Exp that should be on the list but they should be limited still. And the cloaked casting, I believe, affects only Beguiler spells. Feinting in combat doesn't require to be in melee as far as I know. What could be a problem is if the DM lets the Warmage's Eclectic Learning be taken instead of Adv Learning. The really potent spells would and could cause a problem with Cloaked Casting.
Puca 08-07-06, 04:29 PM	Feinting in combat doesn't require to be in melee as far as I know.Youre correct. Ive screwed that up before. I get it in my head because a normal feint works with a melee attack, which incorrectly I translate to "in melee." But isnt there some weird way this is worded in the Beguilers description? I thought Id read that somewhere before.
Black_Puffin 08-07-06, 04:44 PM	I'm not too sure because I don't have the book right in front of me, but doesn't the description of cloaked casting mention something about being in melee? It is worded oddly if memory serves. I think Cloaked Casting was meant to add spellcasting to the standard Feint. It does the same as feint but adds the spellcasting. Losing dex vs the next attack is standard, overcoming SR is new. I think in Raptor School, tactical feat, you can feint using your BAB if you wear a cloak and swirl it in your opponent's face. Not the best for Beguiler but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Puca 08-07-06, 05:03 PM	I'm not too sure because I don't have the book right in front of me, but doesn't the description of cloaked casting mention something about being in melee? It is worded oddly if memory serves.Im going from memory too, but I think the whole ability is prefaced with the phrase "When in melee, ..." I think, and I'll be home to check my book by the next time I post, that the way it is worded leaves open the possibility of Feinting when "in melee" however you define "in melee;" then moving, either with a five-foot step or a regular movement; then cast with out drawing the AoO (for casting) and get the benefits of cloaked casting. Edit: I actually read the ability now. It reads that it must be used "in combat" and the Beguiler must "remain in melee." This leads me to believe that in order to pull this off, you need to cast defensively and risk loosing the spell or drawing an AoO; although, at level 20, there isnt much of a chance of failing that check.
Black_Puffin 08-07-06, 06:08 PM	When denied dex to AC, can you take AoO's? I never really looked into it. If you can, then the Cloaked Casting has it's disadvantage and we can all go home happy, even at Lv 20. Thanks man.
CelestialBarbarian 08-07-06, 07:08 PM	When denied dex to AC, can you take AoO's? I never really looked into it. If you can, then the Cloaked Casting has it's disadvantage and we can all go home happy, even at Lv 20. Thanks man. The text on p. 7 PHB II specifies that to use surprise casting you must remain in melee, and that the target isn't flat-footed just because it's denied its Dex bonus (the general rule, just restated here, is that being flanked doesn't make you lose your attacks of opportunity). The requirement to remain in melee and the possibility of taking an attack of opportunity are negated by the fact that any 20th-level beguiler is going to have a minimum Concentration bonus of 23. Since a skill check doesn't fail automatically on a roll of a natural 1, this means he has a minimum roll of 24, meaning he can automatically cast on even a 9th-level spell on the defensive, so an attack of opportunity will not apply. It sounds to me like most of you haven't played (much less DMed) high-level characters, and don't realize that the arcane casters run around invisible virtually all the time.
Black_Puffin 08-08-06, 11:17 AM	Easy there man. I have played and DMed high level campaigns. And I just looked up the rules about AoO and Flatfootedness. Invisibility can easily be defeated and over rated in this case. There's environment issues and counter spells. Any smart DM can counter an invisible foe, same with any smart villian. Just because you can run around invisible doesn't mean you can't be detected and your opponent is unaware at all times. If you can figure out a way to track an opponent, I'd rule that you negate the invisibility bonuses. example: You battle in ankle deep water, underwater, in a sandstorm, dust cloud, fog, by puddles, dust on a floor, or use metsubushi. Using glitterdust and see invisiblity by default. Don't forget about blind sense and blind sight. Just because I can't see you doesn't mean I can't stop you. You just need a little creativity.
CelestialBarbarian 08-08-06, 11:38 AM	Easy there man. I have played and DMed high level campaigns. And I just looked up the rules about AoO and Flatfootedness. Invisibility can easily be defeated and over rated in this case. There's environment issues and counter spells. Any smart DM can counter an invisible foe, same with any smart villian. Just because you can run around invisible doesn't mean you can't be detected and your opponent is unaware at all times. If you can figure out a way to track an opponent, I'd rule that you negate the invisibility bonuses. example: You battle in ankle deep water, underwater, in a sandstorm, dust cloud, fog, by puddles, dust on a floor, or use metsubushi. Using glitterdust and see invisiblity by default. Don't forget about blind sense and blind sight. Just because I can't see you doesn't mean I can't stop you. You just need a little creativity. Just because it's possible to overcome invisiblity doesn't mean that that it loses its usefulness. Sure, a wizard might realize that there's someone invisible about and cast see invisibility, and the glitterdust. Of course he's probably not the one in melee with the invisible beguiler, and casting glitterdust means risking blinding his allies who are in melee with the beguiler. Possibly or perhaps probably none of those handy conditions will apply. The issue isn't whether someone can overcome invisibility with the right spells or by tweaking the conditions to make them unfavorable to the beguiler. I wasn't really thinking about how the DM might challenge a PC beguiler as much as I was thinking about how an NPC beguiler might just ignore the SR of the PCs with SR or how a PC beguiler who turns on the PCs with SR might just ignore it. Since both invisibility and SR still make a difference at high levels, there's just too much opportunity to simply sweep away the SR of the PCs who have paid through the nose for it. I'm not going to toss it out any more than I'm going to suddenly toss out another PC's uncanny dodge. Edit: You mentioned being flat-footed and attacks of opportunity, but that wasn't the issue. We know that you can't make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed unless you have Combat Reflexes. The issue is whether losing your Dex bonus makes you lose your attacks of opportunity. Being flat-footed makes you lose your Dex bonus, unless you have uncanny dodge, but that doesn't mean losing your Dex bonus makes you lose your attacks of opportunity. Indeed NOT losing your Dex bonus when you're flat-footed because you have uncanny dodge doesn't prevent you from losing your attacks of opportunity. It's being flat-footed, not losing your Dex bonus, that makes you lose your attacks of opportunity.
Puca 08-08-06, 02:51 PM	It sounds to me like most of you haven't played (much less DMed) high-level characters, and don't realize that the arcane casters run around invisible virtually all the time.A fact that, for my part, Ive admitted several times. Just because it's possible to overcome invisiblity doesn't mean that that it loses its usefulness.Its probably just a difference in campaign styles, but at higher levels, say 12+, invisibility effects lose a lot of their effectiveness against intelligent opponents. It is just because it is such an effective technique that those with the power and resources to do so find a way to deal with it. The issue isn't whether someone can overcome invisibility with the right spells or by tweaking the conditions to make them unfavorable to the beguiler. For me, the issue is pretty close to that. I wasnt talking about doing anything different per se, but whether or not the things that would normally happen, like smart opponents considering a See Invisibility potion to be practically mandatory equipment, would be such that Beguilers wouldnt be able to use this technique with such a frequency as to make it a cause for concern. How often if can be used is for me a crucial factor in any question regarding the power of the ability. (That it is very, very powerful is not something I dispute.) If you can figure out a way to track an opponent, I'd rule that you negate the invisibility bonuses. example: You battle in ankle deep water, underwater, in a sandstorm, dust cloud, fog, by puddles, dust on a floor, or use metsubushi. Using glitterdust and see invisiblity by default. Don't forget about blind sense and blind sight.Being ankle-deep in water and things like that, including Blindsense but not Blind Sight, only allow you to target the square your invisible opponent is in. You still suffer all the penalties, including being denied your dex against their attacks.
Gworraent 08-08-06, 05:23 PM	It's fine. This character makes a great beguiler. Gnome +1 to illusion DC's Improved Feint(feintig as swift action at, I believe, 6th level) Spell Focus Enchantment and Illusion. All beguiler spells are enchantment or illusion so the DC's of all his/her spells increase by one. +2 to Illusion DCs(or +3 if Feint used succesfully) +1 to Enchantment DC's(or +2 if Feint used succesfully) Very nice :D
Black_Puffin 08-08-06, 05:53 PM	The NPC issue... Regardless of how we overcome invisibility, an NPC beguiler would be a serious threat to SR. My idea of resolving this is to have a way the PCs could put a stop to the beguiler beforehand. Perhaps roleplay, beguilers are also manipulators through words. If the PCs realize that its a beguiler they could prepare accordingly. It sounds like this becomes a question of: how do we combat such a threat? It's also about who has the SR. Fighters, could have some serious problems. Wizards, might not be that bad off. To be honest, I've never had a beguiler NPC of that high of a level. Thanks about the corrections, but I'd rule if there was some way you could know where exactly your foe is (by some means of outlining them, ankle deep water lets you know how they are standing) or what was about to happen (ie. detect thoughts), you'd negate the invisibility.
CelestialBarbarian 08-09-06, 03:33 PM	You guys have persuaded me that spell resistance, invisibility and cloaked casting are all useless, so I'm removing them all from the game.
Anauroch 08-09-06, 03:54 PM	:bounce: :heehee
Black_Puffin 08-09-06, 04:09 PM	Whatever... Just don't do it on our account. If something is that powerful it just has to be done right by the DM. Say a PC is abusing SR, throw the beguiler at them. Just make sure you remove them for a good reason.
CelestialBarbarian 08-09-06, 11:13 PM	:bounce: :heehee :D