Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Isomer 02-24-07, 08:29 PM	I'm curious to see what people think of the Beguilder class from the Players Handbook 2. Flavorwise it looks very deep and appealing, but what about game mechanics? Just a few observations of my own. They lack the rogues sneak attack, i think that is a good thing as it distances them from the rogue making them distinct/different. But it also causes the drawback (combined with a poor Bab) that they are crap when combat actually starts. They have a good number of support spells like the Bard and even some potentially powerful enchantment magic, but leaning on their spell casting makes them vulnerable to a host of critters, constructs, vermin, dragons (immune to paralysis and sleep effects), and undead all come to mind. Going back to the rogue comparison, they are a little behind them on skill points, but the utility spells, detect magic, read magic, disguise self, detect thoughts, invisibility, knock, spider climb, and the like more than make up for the 2 points per level differance. They have trapfinding, i'm not sure what to make of that as it relates to relative power... Armorer mage as a class feature seems like a must. Without the damaging spells common to some of the other casting classes, they'd seem particularly vulnerable without it (then again they do have access to mage armor). Silent and still spell both seem to fit well with the core consept of this class. I like the advanced learning feature, but wonder if maybe they shouldn't have included divinations as possible spells to learn. They have good will saves but not good reflex saves, with the rogue heavy influence that supprises me. It might be for balance issues, but i look and see the bard, cleric, druid, and ranger as all having good saves in two different areas. Lastly the cloaked casting feature, i find it intreiging both flavorwise and from a gameplay view. I look forward to actually playing one of these guys in a friends upcoming game, i would love to hear anyone elses first intial take on this class.
TheCobra 02-24-07, 08:32 PM	But it also causes the drawback (combined with a poor Bab) that they are crap when combat actually starts. In combat, casting spells tends to be better than hitting things. Beguilers are usually better than rogues in combat. they are a little behind them on skill points Actually, they tend to have more skill points than rogues. Beguilers pump INT, rogues pump DEX.
Isomer 02-24-07, 09:45 PM	In combat, casting spells tends to be better than hitting things. Beguilers are usually better than rogues in combat. Actually, they tend to have more skill points than rogues. Beguilers pump INT, rogues pump DEX. You missed the whole problem with a lack of combat spells... Just because i can cast spells doesn't mean i have a spell that is effective or relavent to the fight i'm in. Have you actually read their spell list? It's a classic short falling of spell castors at low levels; i have these 3 or 4 spells and that's it. When i get to 16th level i might be able to shape the world, but right now i'm more worried about this zombie that is clubing my face in. And to the skill point comment i made the mistake of going simply by what the book says you get at each level 8+int verses 6+int. I've played a number of a rogues in the past and have always played up my Int first because i love my skillpoints and can never have enough. I didn't dwell on or even consider that other people might not try to get the most skill points in their rogue as possible.
TheCobra 02-24-07, 10:49 PM	Just because i can cast spells doesn't mean i have a spell that is effective or relavent to the fight i'm in. Beguilers have great spells. At level 1, casting sleep or color spray four times a day rules. Unlike wizards, they don't have worry about memorizing spells. Really, beguilers own wizards during the low levels. At level 4, beguilers can go to town with glitterdust. At 6 they get dispel magic, hold person, slow, and suggestion. Plenty of options. When i get to 16th level i might be able to shape the world, but right now i'm more worried about this zombie that is clubing my face in. A 16th-level beguiler will only be seen by a zombie when she wants to be. Period.
Memnanth 02-24-07, 10:55 PM	I'm currently playing a level 10 human Beguiler in one of my friends campaigns. It has worked very well for me, especially since it is a drow heavy campaign. Something to keep in mind when going against undead or constructs is that they aren't immune to either shadow spells, or any illusion spells for the most part. Illusion might not help you against the zombie, but it will help you against anything with an intelligence high enough to know it should run away. Plus, it is always important to remember the diplomacy DC to make someone who is currently friendly (such as from charm) permanently friendly is only 1, and only 20 to make them permanently helpful. With a few diplomacy boosting items you can quickly assemble an army, without ever touching leadership.
Isomer 02-24-07, 11:05 PM	You make a good point about sleep and glitterdust. But you missunderstood me with the level 16 comment. A 16th-level beguiler will only be seen by a zombie when she wants to be. Period. The reference there was a comment on power curve from the low level characters point of view. Before the words 16th level came the phrase when i get to Spell casters as a general rule have amazing upward potential, but in order to go up to the top, you have to start at the bottom with the zombies, and vermin (which are both immune to the vast majority of the beguilers abilities). with regurds to other topics; What if do you think about their base saves? Should they get good reflex saves as well? Do you think trapfinding is a good class feature to include?
TheCobra 02-24-07, 11:31 PM	(which are both immune to the vast majority of the beguilers abilities). But not glitterdust, nor illusions. Mindless things are really easy to fool with illusions. Should they get good reflex saves as well? Do any full casters get good Reflex saves? Do you think trapfinding is a good class feature to include? It's a defining feature.
Kintara 02-25-07, 02:28 AM	I don't understand the "useless in combat" comment at all. Practically every single spell on their list is useful in combat. Look at just first level. Charm Person (many potential combat uses), Color Spray (great low level combat spell), Comprehend Languages (okay, this one is rarely, not never, useful in combat, fortunately Beguilers don't need to choose or prepare spells, so its utility comes at essentially no cost to combat effectiveness), Detect Secret Doors (usually not important in combat, but it could be, if you are lucky and desperate, I suppose ;)), Disguise Self (useful just before combat as a means of infiltration), Expeditious Retreat (useful for expeditious retreats), Hypnotism (usable in combat, but probably not worth it. you could just color spray them, after all. ;) great for pre-combat preparatory hijinx, though), Mage Armor (mmm, armor), Obscuring Mist (a nice way to stall for time or as cover for trickery), Rouse (useful for one of the DM's favorite encounters, night raid!), Silent Image (hard to quantify its usefulness if it's not apparent, but in short, trickery is fun), Sleep ("Psst, rogue!" *splorch*), Undetectable Alignment (again, useful for infiltration), Whelm (hey, it's direct damage, non-lethal only means it might require a few more steps to make permanent. *splorch*). Edit: And, honestly, I don't mind leaning on support spells (which the Beguiler has a decent selection of) when fighting enemies immune to mind affecting effects and such. When playing my Beguiler, I usually had something available that proved useful. The best thing about being a Beguiler is that you have all of your spells available all the time. And even when you're not really useful in combat, you can be useful right before (if you're not, you're not trying hard enough).
Marcotic 02-25-07, 04:42 AM	I'd say off hand rogue and Beg are the same in combat, but beguilor probly shines a bit more out of combat/before combat If you want to spend the cash, rogue has UMD so they can do spells, just you know, expesively.
Isomer 02-25-07, 01:01 PM	Edit: And, honestly, I don't mind leaning on support spells (which the Beguiler has a decent selection of) when fighting enemies immune to mind affecting effects and such. When playing my Beguiler, I usually had something available that proved useful. The best thing about being a Beguiler is that you have all of your spells available all the time. And even when you're not really useful in combat, you can be useful right before (if you're not, you're not trying hard enough). You make a very good point reguarding the variety of support spells and having them available all the time, that is actually one of the characteristics of this class that draws me the most. I admit discarded their usefulness in combat too quickly, it's just i've seen so many people voiceing the logic that casters are god(not a typo) and melee people suck and beguilers don't have the offensive spell set normally associated with overt damage(slightly unrelated to the previous thought, but i felt it just the same). So it was a bit of a knee jerk reflex, sorry. I'm going to playing one in an upcoming game and am very excited about it, the last thing i had in mind is to come off as being down on the class. But from a critical prespective i think they shine brightest outside of combat. This is not to imply they can't shine in combat, just that they are stronger elsewhere. To the question made about other full castors getting good reflex saves, Bards are not full casters but they have simular spells (support and enchantment verses blowing stuff up) and get good reflex saves. Druids and Clerics are both full castors that have good saves in 2 areas, they may not be strong at reflex saves but it still stands as an example of a castor who's more than just strong willed. So for power/balance issues would it be unreasonable to give them a good reflex save too?
TheCobra 02-25-07, 01:12 PM	Druids and Clerics are both full castors that have good saves in 2 areas, they may not be strong at reflex saves but it still stands as an example of a castor who's more than just strong willed. Divine casters are supposed to be better than other classes. Everyone knows this. So for power/balance issues would it be unreasonable to give them a good reflex save too? It'd make a strong class even stronger. It's not needed, and would make rogues look even worse in comparison.
Isomer 02-25-07, 02:27 PM	I'm currently playing a level 10 human Beguiler in one of my friends campaigns. It has worked very well for me, especially since it is a drow heavy campaign. leadership. With the way drow favor schemes and manipulation, I'd imagine they'd play wonderfully in a such a game. :) Cobra you have some strong views on Beguilers (and i'm ok with that), i assume this comes from personal experiance. Talking hypotheticals is fun, but a good dnd story makes for a better read. I'd like to hear any personal stories you might have, be it your own or when you saw a friend play one. What level where you'll playing at? Would you consider your character a heavy combat castor, or did you favor the beguilers noncombat abilities?
Maxxim 02-25-07, 02:55 PM	I have to say, my Beguiler shines both in combat and in social situations. Social is obvious. At level 6, I average somewhere around 10-13 for the skills I'm putting points in (diplo, buff, etc.) Combat: I have a rule with my beguiler. I will not allow him to use a weapon to damage something, or cast a direct damage spell. I challenged myself to make him useful without doing so. And IMO, he is immensely useful. I make it so everyone else in the party can kill things faster, easier, and more safely. Shock and Awe if I get surprise (-10 to enemies' initiative rolls). Color spray or blinding color surge (which makes me invisible as well!) to open the fight. After that, I hop around, stunning, sleeping, or hypnotizing whichever enemy I like. Hypnotic pattern rocks. I can control the entire enemy party, and my allies just grab them one by one and beat them down. Nothing else to cast? How about haste to speed the killing up? Then, you have to think about the various immediate action spells. I can force an enemy to stop attacking for 1 round/level with an IMMEDIATE action. I can force it to stop moving for the same duration as an immediate action. Monster got past the fighter and wants to clobber the wizard? Not on my watch. We go through some fights where the cleric doesn't even need to heal, because its just a one-sided bloodbath thanks to the beguiler's amazing spell list. (Of course, there are some fights where I am knocked out in 1 blow, but that's due to my overzealous play style). I also took the group fake out skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. So the move action-feint to increase the spell DC works against multiple enemies at once. No, the Beguiler is masterful in combat. I bet that if someone better than me were playing my character, it would shine even more. I'm just not that experienced. But even so, I honestly think I am able to completely swing the tide of battle in most situations (and make things very complicated and annoying for the DM).
Isomer 02-25-07, 03:25 PM	No, the Beguiler is masterful in combat... But even so, I honestly think I am able to completely swing the tide of battle in most situations (and make things very complicated and annoying for the DM). reading this and the other things you've said i can't help but think "man i'm glad my DM isn't reading this thread" one question though, what book is shock and aww in?
YamiSouru 02-25-07, 03:55 PM	beguilers are far from useless and can actuelly make life a living hell for your DM (not that i suggest this for i have done so and suffered the results of such an action). For example my beguiler had to face off against a trog were-wolf (horrid horrid creature:tantrum: ) so one quick casting of sleep dropped it. after that just walked up, coup de grace, and the beguiler went on with his life. Now of course if you abuse the beguiler to much your DM might do what mine does, throws things at you that have high will saves, though when that happen remember expeditious retreat is your friend :ayyyy!:
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 04:02 PM	I'd consider it one of the more powerful casters. It has access to most of the spells of two powerful schools and a smattering of others, some of which are very powerful (if not directly so) in combat. The class also gives you a hefty number of skill points, allows you to wear armor and cast with it, and provides one of the rare ways to boost a spell's DC outside of ability modification. Plus, it's easy to choose spell focus when most of your spells are either enchantments or illusions; not to mention that it's relatively easy to get the Shadow X spells and start really causing mayhem. Basically, you're looking at a thematic sorcerer with more spells known, more features, armored casting, more skills, and iirc a better hit die. I'd say it's quite potent.
Deus_Proelii 02-25-07, 04:17 PM	Shock and awe is from the SpC. Beguilers definitely pull their own weight in combat. Even if you're facing mindless enemies, there're the shadow spells - and creatures without an INT score don't know how to disbelieve! :devil:
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 04:33 PM	Oh, with a bit of help from a PrC or two (hail the mighty gnome beguilers) disbelieving isn't much good either...
Arem_K 02-25-07, 06:54 PM	I'm playing a beguiler in a party that also has a cleric, druid, and wizard. It is early in the game (just hit level 2), put me and the wizard have been the real stars, using spells like color spray and sleep to take out whole groups of enemies. The druid is right behind, using a warbeast riding dog and a shillelagh to good effect. He also recently bought and trained a new dog. The cleric is on bottom so far, but he was building towards more of a support role anyway. So yeah, speaking from my personal experience a beguiler can pull it's weight with Core DnD's three power classes.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 07:32 PM	I take it you're having an easy time so far? Cleric, Beguiler, Druid, Wizard is like the strongest adventuring party ever.
Isomer 02-25-07, 07:34 PM	I was going for a human build rather than gnome, i just like my skills too much. The DMs said we'd be starting out at 5th level, this gives 3 potential feats if i'm human and i'm trying to deside what to commit to beyond spell focus enchantment.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 08:09 PM	Dazzling Illusion Unsettling Enchantment
Isomer 02-25-07, 08:18 PM	Dazzling Illusion Unsettling Enchantment i'm gonna take a shot in the dark and guess those are in the complete scoundrel? (a book i don't actually own) could you post the specs on what they do?
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 08:21 PM	Complete Mage actually. Dazzling Illusion does: When you cast an illusion spell, you can choose to render all enemies within 30 feet dazzled for 1 round. Blind creatures are immune to this effect. Unsettling Enchantment does: Any foe required to save against an enchantment spell you cast takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and to AC for 1 round, regardless of the result of the save. This is a mindaffecting effect. They both have prerequesites though. Read CMage to find out what they are. Not tough prereqs, but they're there.
Maxxim 02-25-07, 10:18 PM	I was going for a human build rather than gnome, i just like my skills too much. The DMs said we'd be starting out at 5th level, this gives 3 potential feats if i'm human and i'm trying to deside what to commit to beyond spell focus enchantment. If you're only doing human for skills, you don't need to worry about it. With a 20 INT (not that hard for level 5 or 6), you have 11 skill points per level before the human bonus. Gnomes are good for the illusion DC boost, but I personally like grey elf (+2 INT boosts DCs for all spell schools, not just illusion, plus helps with bonus spells at the same time). And on the note of giving the DM too hard of a time, I have to agree with that. I sometimes worry if I'm over-abusing the beguiler's spell list. If it's not that worrisome of a fight, sometimes it might be better just to sit back and snipe a bit with the crossbow.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 10:38 PM	How would you get 20 natural Int by level 5 or 6? Unless you have a race that has bonus Int, your Int can't go above 18 at level 1. Level 4 lets you put one in Int, so that's 19.
crueldespot 02-26-07, 01:53 AM	How would you get 20 natural Int by level 5 or 6 You could start out middle aged, which gives you +1 to mental stats and -1 to physical stats. There's a reason all those wizards in the movies have white hair.
FrostHammer 02-26-07, 02:10 AM	None of my DMs have allowed that so far...
Arcane Guyver 02-26-07, 02:19 AM	You could start out middle aged, which gives you +1 to mental stats and -1 to physical stats. There's a reason all those wizards in the movies have white hair. There's also a reason why the RPGA doesn't use that rule. :) Spellcasters are good enough already, they don't need this somewhat stealthy boost. That said, a gray elf could easily hit Int 20 by level 4 with a point buy.
Sigst 02-26-07, 03:04 AM	Do any full casters get good Reflex saves? The Favored Soul has 3 good saves. Sig
crueldespot 02-26-07, 07:19 AM	There's also a reason why the RPGA doesn't use that rule. Hey, I didn't say it was fair! Frosthammer didn't specify "within the RPGA guidelines" in his question (though he did specify "without an INT bonus race") I wouldn't allow it either, but many do. I don't see how else to get Maxxim's 20 INT by level 5 without using grey elf, higher age category, or int boosting items (which shouldn't increase skill pts).
Maxxim 02-26-07, 07:42 AM	How would you get 20 natural Int by level 5 or 6? Unless you have a race that has bonus Int, your Int can't go above 18 at level 1. Level 4 lets you put one in Int, so that's 19. Start with 18 INT, play a grey elf for +2, add 1 at level 4, and I'm at 21. (I didn't mention the extra 1 since it doesn't do anything right now). I could have a 23 if I bought a headband of intellect, but I like my hat of disguise, its more fun. Or, start with a 16, grey elf adds +2, and buy a headband of intellect, not that hard at all at level 6, especially considering that a beguiler doesn't need magic weapons, and can get by easily without magic armor.
Grogmir 02-26-07, 07:43 AM	Hi There I’m just starting a Beguiler as well, Gonna be great fun to play especially when the other two members of my group are a knight and a Paladin! LOL…. Anyway, Could someone confirm there are gaps in the PHB2 list of spells, for example in the text they mention using Haste, but its not in there list of spells IIRC, Has there been a correction done on the beguiler list at all? Regards Grogmir.
Isomer 02-26-07, 09:10 AM	Hi There I’m just starting a Beguiler as well, Gonna be great fun to play especially when the other two members of my group are a knight and a Paladin! LOL…. Grogmir. With two lawful bent honorable characters? :eek: man you're asking for trouble (lot of fun too). Any idea what alignment you plan on playing? i'm going CN for the record, and this is not picked so i kind be kind of evil in an otherwise good game. Rather i have a nice 5 pages or so of history i've written setting him up that way.
Grogmir 02-26-07, 09:30 AM	Yeah I know! The Knight is a fat Halfling (Lawful N) called Filious the Fat (although she (yep it’s a girl playing him) always uses a different name such as Filious the Great) While the Paladin is just well, a Paladin. I’m C.Good, basically I’m using beguiler as a wrap for the skills I needed, Thiefing and magic, she’s the daughter of some famous magic couple who’s had a boring childhood, so she’s developed to lying all the time and being a cleptomanic to get her fun, nothing really evil basically, she’s just looking for someone to notice her really and has held onto these to ‘goody two shoes’ because they’ve shown they notice and care for her. I plan to go Beguiler 2/Focused (C.Mage) Transmutor 3 then Ulitmate Magus. “I’ll show my parents that I can be a Mage!”
Maxxim 02-26-07, 03:27 PM	Anyway, Could someone confirm there are gaps in the PHB2 list of spells, for example in the text they mention using Haste, but its not in there list of spells IIRC, Has there been a correction done on the beguiler list at all? Regards Grogmir. I mentioned using Haste. I don't have the book in front of me at work, but I use haste at least once a session, I'm almost positive its in the Beguiler's level 2 list (unless I just added it by mistake and have been cheating ever since).
crueldespot 02-26-07, 05:28 PM	I can confirm that haste is on the beguiler's list of level 3 spells. PHB2, p11.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 02:53 AM	Not everyone can have a Grey Elf. And hell, not everyone rolls an 18 either. but regardless, the Beguiler is still a great class.
Isomer 02-27-07, 12:18 PM	Not everyone can have a Grey Elf. And hell, not everyone rolls an 18 either. but regardless, the Beguiler is still a great class. 4d6 drop the lowest=18 is very uncommon without cheating. And you're right, i don't have access to all the elf variants, and even if i did i doubt i'd play it. Only time i ever played an elf was when i played a drow (he was a sneaky manipulative fellow but not a beguiler). I enjoyed playing him, but otherwise I have had a strong since of feh towards elves and their 20 different sub-varieties.
Arcane Guyver 02-27-07, 02:24 PM	Sheezus, I was just saying that with an LA +0 race from the MM and a standard point buy you could get a 20 Int by L4 easily, even without resorting to artificially aging your character for cheesy stats (just spend the 13 points for a '17.'...it'll hurt your other stats, but then again, most spellcasters only need to worry about their casting stat, Con & Dex).