Beguiler (PHB II) Surprise Casting ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler (PHB II) Surprise Casting ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ariel23
07-17-06, 09:29 AM I sent this to the sage (i.e., Skip) but I've never received an answer from the sage, so I'm posting it here. If you don't have the PHB II you can see Skip Williams' overview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a). The Surprise Casting ability uses the term/phrase "remain in melee."
Surprise Casting: Also starting at 2nd level, a beguiler can use the Bluff skill to feint in melee combat. After a successful feint, your subject is denied a Dexterity bonus against any spell you cast as well as any melee attack you make. To get the benefit, you must remain in melee with your foe, and you must make a melee attack or cast a spell on or before your next turn after the feint.
What does "remain in melee" mean? [Or "in melee"]

Here are some follow-up questions which might (or might not) arise from answering the main question:

Is this a defined term/phrase which has meaning in any other aspect of the game (other than the Beguiler class)? E.g., does this mean everyone who wishes to use the Feint special combat action must be "in melee" to use the feat?

If your opponent "leaves" or "breaks" melee can you regain the "in melee" status in time to use the ability, or does this not qualify as "remaining" in melee?
If the answer is "no" does this mean that a free 5' step is sufficient to counteract this ability?

Do you need to be "in melee" when the feint is made, when the spell is cast, or both?

Can an unarmed Beguiler or Beguiler carrying a ranged weapon qualify as being in melee? (I.e., doesn't have the Improved Unarmed strike feat and doesn't threaten an opponent.)
LordPendragon
07-17-06, 09:47 AM It is part of the feint special manoeuvre that you must be in melee to attempt it.

The true effect of feinting is that the target is flat-footed with respect to you. This means the cannot make an AoO on you (so casting in melee is no longer a problem, unless another enemy threatens you), and they get no Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. This effect ends on the target's next turn, since making any action always ends a flat-footed state. Since it only lasts until the beginning of their next turn anyways, it's almost impossible for them to break the effect by moving away.
Puca
07-17-06, 10:10 AM What does "remain in melee" mean? [Or "in melee"]To me, it means where you have an opponent within your reach or are within his during some sort of hostile action.

Is this a defined term/phrase which has meaning in any other aspect of the game (other than the Beguiler class)? It is used in other places, e.g. Combat Expertise, but is not explicitly defined.

E.g., does this mean everyone who wishes to use the Feint special combat action must be "in melee" to use the feat? Little confusion: Feinting is not a feat; it is a special combat action. The rules on feinting do not say that you have to be in melee when you make the feint, but that you only get the benefit for a melee attack.

If your opponent "leaves" or "breaks" melee can you regain the "in melee" status in time to use the ability, or does this not qualify as "remaining" in melee?
If the answer is "no" does this mean that a free 5' step is sufficient to counteract this ability?This is not official, but I would let it work if you were “in melee” when you made the feint and “in melee” at the time you cast the spell. So if there were a couple of moves in between, provided the rules on feinting (before the end of you next turn) were followed, it would be ok.

Can an unarmed Beguiler or Beguiler carrying a ranged weapon qualify as being in melee? (I.e., doesn't have the Improved Unarmed strike feat and doesn't threaten an opponent.)Again, this isnt defined, but Id rule it that as long as one of you is theoretically capable of hitting the other with something other than a ranged weapon, you are ok.

The true effect of feinting is that the target is flat-footed with respect to you. This means the cannot make an AoO on you (so casting in melee is no longer a problem, unless another enemy threatens you), and they get no Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. Oh my god no! This is not true. Hes not flat-footed. He can make AoOs. Casting is still draws one.

A feint denies your dex for one, the next, melee attack. Thats it! no more.
This effect ends on the target's next turn, since making any action always ends a flat-footed state.With typical feinting, it ends on the next melee attack you make, or the end of your next turn which ever comes first. I assume the same it true of the beguilers special benefits.

Since it only lasts until the beginning of their next turn anyways, it's almost impossible for them to break the effect by moving away.What they do, when, and how, will have no effect whatsoever on a typical feint. If they fail the check, and you are able to make a melee attack against them before the end of your next turn, they are denied their Dex for that one attack. Now, some people might take a very strict view of the beguilers “stay in melee requirement” and if they do, a 5-foot step would allow them to break the effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ariel23 07-17-06, 09:29 AM	I sent this to the sage (i.e., Skip) but I've never received an answer from the sage, so I'm posting it here. If you don't have the PHB II you can see Skip Williams' overview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a). The Surprise Casting ability uses the term/phrase "remain in melee." Surprise Casting: Also starting at 2nd level, a beguiler can use the Bluff skill to feint in melee combat. After a successful feint, your subject is denied a Dexterity bonus against any spell you cast as well as any melee attack you make. To get the benefit, you must remain in melee with your foe, and you must make a melee attack or cast a spell on or before your next turn after the feint. What does "remain in melee" mean? [Or "in melee"] Here are some follow-up questions which might (or might not) arise from answering the main question: Is this a defined term/phrase which has meaning in any other aspect of the game (other than the Beguiler class)? E.g., does this mean everyone who wishes to use the Feint special combat action must be "in melee" to use the feat? If your opponent "leaves" or "breaks" melee can you regain the "in melee" status in time to use the ability, or does this not qualify as "remaining" in melee? If the answer is "no" does this mean that a free 5' step is sufficient to counteract this ability? Do you need to be "in melee" when the feint is made, when the spell is cast, or both? Can an unarmed Beguiler or Beguiler carrying a ranged weapon qualify as being in melee? (I.e., doesn't have the Improved Unarmed strike feat and doesn't threaten an opponent.)
LordPendragon 07-17-06, 09:47 AM	It is part of the feint special manoeuvre that you must be in melee to attempt it. The true effect of feinting is that the target is flat-footed with respect to you. This means the cannot make an AoO on you (so casting in melee is no longer a problem, unless another enemy threatens you), and they get no Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. This effect ends on the target's next turn, since making any action always ends a flat-footed state. Since it only lasts until the beginning of their next turn anyways, it's almost impossible for them to break the effect by moving away.
Puca 07-17-06, 10:10 AM	What does "remain in melee" mean? [Or "in melee"]To me, it means where you have an opponent within your reach or are within his during some sort of hostile action. Is this a defined term/phrase which has meaning in any other aspect of the game (other than the Beguiler class)? It is used in other places, e.g. Combat Expertise, but is not explicitly defined. E.g., does this mean everyone who wishes to use the Feint special combat action must be "in melee" to use the feat? Little confusion: Feinting is not a feat; it is a special combat action. The rules on feinting do not say that you have to be in melee when you make the feint, but that you only get the benefit for a melee attack. If your opponent "leaves" or "breaks" melee can you regain the "in melee" status in time to use the ability, or does this not qualify as "remaining" in melee? If the answer is "no" does this mean that a free 5' step is sufficient to counteract this ability?This is not official, but I would let it work if you were “in melee” when you made the feint and “in melee” at the time you cast the spell. So if there were a couple of moves in between, provided the rules on feinting (before the end of you next turn) were followed, it would be ok. Can an unarmed Beguiler or Beguiler carrying a ranged weapon qualify as being in melee? (I.e., doesn't have the Improved Unarmed strike feat and doesn't threaten an opponent.)Again, this isnt defined, but Id rule it that as long as one of you is theoretically capable of hitting the other with something other than a ranged weapon, you are ok. The true effect of feinting is that the target is flat-footed with respect to you. This means the cannot make an AoO on you (so casting in melee is no longer a problem, unless another enemy threatens you), and they get no Dex bonus to AC against your attacks. Oh my god no! This is not true. Hes not flat-footed. He can make AoOs. Casting is still draws one. A feint denies your dex for one, the next, melee attack. Thats it! no more. This effect ends on the target's next turn, since making any action always ends a flat-footed state.With typical feinting, it ends on the next melee attack you make, or the end of your next turn which ever comes first. I assume the same it true of the beguilers special benefits. Since it only lasts until the beginning of their next turn anyways, it's almost impossible for them to break the effect by moving away.What they do, when, and how, will have no effect whatsoever on a typical feint. If they fail the check, and you are able to make a melee attack against them before the end of your next turn, they are denied their Dex for that one attack. Now, some people might take a very strict view of the beguilers “stay in melee requirement” and if they do, a 5-foot step would allow them to break the effect.