Beguiler's Surprise Casting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler's Surprise Casting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rbodine
06-03-07, 01:44 AM I'm missing something, and the FAQ doesn't answer my question.

The Beguiler's Surprise Casting ability (PHB 2, pg 7) appears to be identical to the ordinary Feint action (PHB, pg 155) with one exception: Surprise Casting expressly mentions that spells are also available as your next attack, whereas Feint doesn't. (I'm not going to post the details because of the CoC.)

This means that all that this class feature adds to the table is the ability to apply it to spells that require an attack roll (not including anything gained through Advanced Learning). Looking at the beguiler spell list, I find only one spell, Touch of Idiocy, that requires an attack roll. Because casters generally shouldn't get close enough to touch an enemy, I find this to be a largely meaningless class feature.

What, if anything, am I missing?
Axiomatic_vampire
06-03-07, 03:56 AM Synergy with Cloaked casting. If you feint and put them flat footed, you get the DC bonus on your hold person, or whatever.
You're probably invisible, you tap the guy on the opposite shoulder as a swift action (improved feint + surprise casting), he's flat footed, now he has to make a save 1 or 2 higher. With improved invisibility, it's not a bad feature. Anything to boost those save DCs, right?
rbodine
06-03-07, 04:04 AM Synergy with Cloaked casting. If you feint and put them flat footed, you get the DC bonus on your hold person, or whatever.
You're probably invisible, you tap the guy on the opposite shoulder as a swift action (improved feint + surprise casting), he's flat footed, now he has to make a save 1 or 2 higher. With improved invisibility, it's not a bad feature. Anything to boost those save DCs, right?

This is correct, but it's no different from what any other character could do when using Feint in combat. I'm not saying that there isn't a reason for a Beguiler to Feint in combat. What I'm saying is that there's no point in saying it's a class feature. It's just an ordinary Feint (except for the narrow, worthless difference I mentioned in my original post).
Axiomatic_vampire
06-03-07, 04:09 AM Other characters get a save DC bonus vs. flatfooted? I'm pretty sure that's beguiler specific, so getting a feint as a swift action is relavent.
rbodine
06-03-07, 04:18 AM Other characters get a save DC bonus vs. flatfooted? I'm pretty sure that's beguiler specific, so getting a feint as a swift action is relavent.

Yes, it's Beguiler specific, but that's Cloaked Casting, which I'm not addressing.

Let me try this from another point of view.

Let's say a Beguiler uses Suprise Casting in combat. What happens? Target denied Dex. Beguiler's DCs go up.

Let's say a Beguiler uses a normal Feint in combat. What happens? Target denied Dex. Beguiler's DCs go up.

Each of these results are great; I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is that they're the same exact thing. So, how is Suprise Casting not just Feint? If it is just Feint, why is it considered a class feature? Everyone can do it; it's just that the Beguiler uses it for a different purpose, which is covered under Cloaked Casting.

Although you seem to have missed my point, you have brought up a significant difference: at 6th level, if you've burned a feat on Improved Feint, you'll be able to Feint as a swift action. That makes it a little better (probably not worth a feat, but some might disagree), but if that's the only significant difference, why bother giving it to a Beguiler prior to 6th level? For 4 levels, the Beguiler will gain nothing more from the class feature than he would from the regular Feint. In effect, he won't have the class feature until 6th level anyway . . . maybe.
rbodine
06-03-07, 04:32 AM Here's how I would have designed the character:

Surprise Casting: At 6th level, the Beguiler receives Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if he lacks the prerequisites for the feat, permitting the Beguiler to feint as a move action. If the Beguiler already has Improved Feint, the Beguiler may feint as a swift action.

So as far as I can tell, what I've written more accurately describes what's going on. Nothing is different for a beguiler until 6th level, so the class feature shouldn't kick in until then.

I think I now have my answer. There's a difference, but not until 6th level. Poor designing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rbodine 06-03-07, 01:44 AM	I'm missing something, and the FAQ doesn't answer my question. The Beguiler's Surprise Casting ability (PHB 2, pg 7) appears to be identical to the ordinary Feint action (PHB, pg 155) with one exception: Surprise Casting expressly mentions that spells are also available as your next attack, whereas Feint doesn't. (I'm not going to post the details because of the CoC.) This means that all that this class feature adds to the table is the ability to apply it to spells that require an attack roll (not including anything gained through Advanced Learning). Looking at the beguiler spell list, I find only one spell, Touch of Idiocy, that requires an attack roll. Because casters generally shouldn't get close enough to touch an enemy, I find this to be a largely meaningless class feature. What, if anything, am I missing?
Axiomatic_vampire 06-03-07, 03:56 AM	Synergy with Cloaked casting. If you feint and put them flat footed, you get the DC bonus on your hold person, or whatever. You're probably invisible, you tap the guy on the opposite shoulder as a swift action (improved feint + surprise casting), he's flat footed, now he has to make a save 1 or 2 higher. With improved invisibility, it's not a bad feature. Anything to boost those save DCs, right?
rbodine 06-03-07, 04:04 AM	Synergy with Cloaked casting. If you feint and put them flat footed, you get the DC bonus on your hold person, or whatever. You're probably invisible, you tap the guy on the opposite shoulder as a swift action (improved feint + surprise casting), he's flat footed, now he has to make a save 1 or 2 higher. With improved invisibility, it's not a bad feature. Anything to boost those save DCs, right? This is correct, but it's no different from what any other character could do when using Feint in combat. I'm not saying that there isn't a reason for a Beguiler to Feint in combat. What I'm saying is that there's no point in saying it's a class feature. It's just an ordinary Feint (except for the narrow, worthless difference I mentioned in my original post).
Axiomatic_vampire 06-03-07, 04:09 AM	Other characters get a save DC bonus vs. flatfooted? I'm pretty sure that's beguiler specific, so getting a feint as a swift action is relavent.
rbodine 06-03-07, 04:18 AM	Other characters get a save DC bonus vs. flatfooted? I'm pretty sure that's beguiler specific, so getting a feint as a swift action is relavent. Yes, it's Beguiler specific, but that's Cloaked Casting, which I'm not addressing. Let me try this from another point of view. Let's say a Beguiler uses Suprise Casting in combat. What happens? Target denied Dex. Beguiler's DCs go up. Let's say a Beguiler uses a normal Feint in combat. What happens? Target denied Dex. Beguiler's DCs go up. Each of these results are great; I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is that they're the same exact thing. So, how is Suprise Casting not just Feint? If it is just Feint, why is it considered a class feature? Everyone can do it; it's just that the Beguiler uses it for a different purpose, which is covered under Cloaked Casting. Although you seem to have missed my point, you have brought up a significant difference: at 6th level, if you've burned a feat on Improved Feint, you'll be able to Feint as a swift action. That makes it a little better (probably not worth a feat, but some might disagree), but if that's the only significant difference, why bother giving it to a Beguiler prior to 6th level? For 4 levels, the Beguiler will gain nothing more from the class feature than he would from the regular Feint. In effect, he won't have the class feature until 6th level anyway . . . maybe.
rbodine 06-03-07, 04:32 AM	Here's how I would have designed the character: Surprise Casting: At 6th level, the Beguiler receives Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if he lacks the prerequisites for the feat, permitting the Beguiler to feint as a move action. If the Beguiler already has Improved Feint, the Beguiler may feint as a swift action. So as far as I can tell, what I've written more accurately describes what's going on. Nothing is different for a beguiler until 6th level, so the class feature shouldn't kick in until then. I think I now have my answer. There's a difference, but not until 6th level. Poor designing.