Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seizeaczech 09-26-07, 01:42 AM	I love both of these classes and must make a decision. I can make great role playing decisions for both classes and just can't decide. Therefore, I'm naturally more interested in which class is the most effective. What do you all think? What would you be?
LoneFlame 09-26-07, 11:31 AM	Effectiveness depends on need. Beguiler's got similar skills points(though not as large a skill selection as Factotum). Beguiler's got 9th lv spell, but the selection isn't that great(though using the Warmage's variant on Advanced Learning can suppliment that). Both can disarm traps. Beguiler sucks at melee combat, whereas Factotum is okay. In anti-magic zones, Factotum owns on the Beguiler Overall, they're about equal.
Aggrenox 09-26-07, 05:16 PM	I find the concept of the cunning hero who "figures out" how to cast spells and channel divine energy much more fun to play, but you need to think what your going to have more fun playing.
StruckingFuggle 09-26-07, 06:16 PM	you need to think what your going to have more fun playing. You know, he basically said that from a roleplaying perspective and potentially mechanical perspective, they'd both be really close to equal in terms of fun; therefore which would be more fun would be determined by their mathematical / mechanical impact on the group - which, thus, is his question.
Aggrenox 09-26-07, 07:53 PM	and I meant you're. But what ever. MASSIVE FAIL! LVL 2!
bkdubs123 09-26-07, 09:05 PM	from a mechanical perspective, the Factotum is likely more powerful at lower levels (1-5), but after a while the Beguiler's spells start to catch up. They are both fun to play, although I know I had more fun playing my Beguiler (whether that was because I started it at level 3 and the Factotum at level 1 remains to be seen). purely on paper, I like the Factotum better, but in practice (however limited) I enjoyed playing my Beguiler more.
Jaxgaret 09-26-07, 11:01 PM	Killer Gnome Shadowcraft Illusionist! Um... wait, that wasn't one of the choices. Go with the Factotum. It's new, it's different, try it out.
seizeaczech 09-27-07, 12:36 AM	Howdy folks! Thanks for the responses. Boy, taking the sweeping view of your responses it brings me back to square one. Would you find that mechanically one would be better than the other if there weren't more than 2 encounters a day?
seizeaczech 09-27-07, 12:44 AM	Howdy folks! Thanks for the responses. Boy, taking the sweeping view of your responses it brings me back to square one. Would you find that mechanically one would be better than the other if there weren't more than 2 encounters a day?
goawayugh 09-27-07, 01:01 AM	I'm partial to casters (read the first line in my sig). The Beguiler will deffinitely be more powerful once you hit low-mid to mid levels (6+). See if your DM will allow the Eclectic Learning variant from PHBII, he should. It is listed under the Warmage entry. Plus, with Beguiler, you can enter Shadowcraft Mage, the BEST PrC EVER! (again, check my sig, "death by silent image")
FponkDamn 09-27-07, 10:04 AM	Mechanically speaking, if the adventure/campaign is very dungeon-crawly, you'll probably like the Factotum's range of usefulness there more appropriate. If the campaign is more social/diplomatic, then Beguiler is great right from the start. If there's an equal mix, but the number of encounters per day is low, Beguiler gets a slight edge - while the Factotum is no weaker for having fewer encounters, the Beguiler, like any spellcaster, is stronger for it. Also, consult with your group - while it seems like any choice will put you in the "secondary rogue" sort of party role, check the composition of your group. If your group lacks a rogue, that might push you in the direction of Factotum, which will be more likely to take up that role full-time than the Beguiler. If your party lacks a "front-man" or a utility spellcaster, that would likely push you more in the direction of Beguiler. Since there is in fact a fair amount of bleed between these two classes' party roles, I think your best bet would be to ask your play group which one they'd rather have! Good luck! - Johnny
Kurald_Galain 09-27-07, 10:13 AM	If your group lacks a rogue, that might push you in the direction of Factotum, which will be more likely to take up that role full-time than the Beguiler. In my experience, a beguiler functions perfectly well as a primary rogue, with the exception of its combatant function (sneak attack; then again, the beguiler can make himself useful in other ways during combat). Aside from getting the good skillz, you get spells like Knock and Invis, which at times mean you can upstage the rogue.
goawayugh 09-27-07, 10:16 AM	I think your best bet would be to ask your play group which one they'd rather have! I think this is the best advice I've read in this thread so far.
seizeaczech 09-27-07, 10:23 PM	I think this is the best advice I've read in this thread so far. I agree. It is actually my default in every case. I can give anybody a fun personality and have a good time playing it so class usually doesn't matter too much. In this case, the players don't care and the DM insists that I play whatever I want. We played in one game and I have had extreme second thoughts over my initial class selection (I chose it with a strictly serious campaign in mind, and this one is much lighter) which has led me to my choice of Factotum V. Beguiler. Everyone's input has been very valuable and I agree with the assessments. Let me put this perhaps another way. . .how strong do you think the Factotum is? How strong is the Beguiler? I don't need to dominate by power but I want to be at least effective. What do you all think?
Jaxgaret 09-27-07, 11:25 PM	I'm going to say that the Beguiler is probably going to come out on top in terms of power levels, simply due to the fact that it is a full caster and the Factotum is not. However, I'm going to reiterate my suggestion from before: play a Factotum! It's new! Exciting! Rich Burlew designed it! I get $1 every time someone plays one! Whereas the Beguiler, while cool, is a Rogue/Illusionist base class with a few neat doodads. Nothing super ground-breaking in terms of class design. If you're going to go with the Factotum, the feat Font of Inspiration is your best friend.
Nexis 09-28-07, 12:03 AM	In terms of power, the Beguiler is pure awesome. They get a great spell list and can really support the party with their spells. I find that the factum is interesting but, mechanically, not very good. :(
seizeaczech 09-28-07, 12:14 AM	I'm going to say that the Beguiler is probably going to come out on top in terms of power levels, simply due to the fact that it is a full caster and the Factotum is not. However, I'm going to reiterate my suggestion from before: play a Factotum! It's new! Exciting! Rich Burlew designed it! I get $1 every time someone plays one! Whereas the Beguiler, while cool, is a Rogue/Illusionist base class with a few neat doodads. Nothing super ground-breaking in terms of class design. If you're going to go with the Factotum, the feat Font of Inspiration is your best friend. I am sorely tempted by this. I love the mechanics of the Factotum, so much so that I can't quite get past it. Yet, the Beguiler fits my character so well too that I can't decide. I like very much this new path of mechanics of resources that are restricted per encounter (Factotum and ToB). I think I am 51% in favor of Factotum but I really just can't choose. Maybe I should change this to a poll and you can all vote and tell me what to play:)
TheCobra 09-28-07, 01:43 AM	from a mechanical perspective, the Factotum is likely more powerful at lower levels (1-5), Really? I'm not very familiar with the Factotum, but I have trouble imagining a more powerful 1st-level character than a beguiler. Four color sprays, great skills, and light armor proficiency. What could beat that?
goawayugh 09-28-07, 08:01 AM	Here's another thought: Have you played either one before? If yes, then play the one you haven't yet. If no, I'm still sticking with my recommendation of Beguiler. I've never played a Factotum before. And, although very interesting looking, they just don't seem that powerful to me. Maybe I'm missing something that you can only see if you play them. Then again, I'm not too much impressed with almost anything that is not a caster. Now this thought line leaves me wanting to play a Factotum just to see what they are like in action...
Sosthenes 09-28-07, 01:21 PM	I'm currently facing a similar dilemma, as I'm currently torn between choosing either factotum or beguiler for a gestalt character. As a feytouched explorer of ruins, both kinda fit... But I think the enjoyment you get from both classes heavily depends on the other characters in the party and the general playing style. With urban, social adventures, a simple illusion can work wonders. For a dungeon trip, the factotum is rather enjoyable. Also, attributes matter: A factotum is great to play if all you've got is one good stat. Even in low point buy, putting most of it in Int might be fun. If anyone has seen those "Librarian" TV movies with Noah Wyle, you know what I mean... Actually, for certain kinds of adventures, multi-classing between those might be worthwile. Both have Int as their primary stat, and even the low-level beguiler spells are worthwile, even if thos goes against the holy command of "thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels"...
Jaxgaret 09-28-07, 02:26 PM	I've never played a Factotum before. And, although very interesting looking, they just don't seem that powerful to me. Maybe I'm missing something that you can only see if you play them. Then again, I'm not too much impressed with almost anything that is not a caster. Now this thought line leaves me wanting to play a Factotum just to see what they are like in action... Base Factotums mostly nova in combat. Taking the feat Font of Inspiration multiple times allows them to nova even more, or nova and then eke the rest of their Inspiration points over the entire encounter. I would almost have to recommend taking Font of Inspiration as the bulk of your feat choices, if not every feat you select - the class itself provides for enough versatility of play design. A Human or Strongheart Halfling Factotum who takes nothing but Font of Inspiration could be a surprisingly strong combat character. An excellent choice for Factotum PCs is to splash 4 levels of Warblade into the mix, making the character an eventual Factotum16/Warblade4. This adds a good bit of combat prowess to the Factotum, and reduces how much they'll have to do '1-round inspiration point-fueled blaze of glory, then stay out of the way' in combat. One might be inclined to take the levels in Warblade at 5th, 8th (or 12th), 11th (or 15th), and 18th (for that 6th level stance) to maximize benefits.
InkBlot 09-28-07, 03:43 PM	Swordsage may be a better choice. You start out with more maneuvers, and every time you take another level you get another maneuver. You only lose one point of BAB, which Discipline Focus makes up for (your full attack is weaker but all your best moves are standard actions). You don't get Int to reflex saves but you get a better base reflex and a better will. The only downside is lower hit die (only a huge difference if your first level would have been Warblade), and needing to take Adaptive Style because of your suck recovery method.
FponkDamn 09-28-07, 09:14 PM	If you do decide to take the Factotum, take it from someone who's played one extensively - Font of Inspiration should not be your only feat. It should be several, perhaps even many, of your feat choices, but there are a few others that you simply can't be without. Namely, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. You'll get more mileage out of that one than you ever will from Font of Inspiration. Although, if you DO decide to use most of your feat selections on Font of Inspiration, make sure that as soon as you can pretend to cast 2nd level spells you snag Heroics out of Spell Compendium. Gives you a fighter feat for 10 min/level. Snag a wand of it, too, as soon as you can. At the beginning of any given battle, you'll be able to use your intense knowledge of whatever foe you're facing to choose the best feat for the scenario. In many cases I ended up doing this and selecting a Tactical feat - they are fantastic to grant with that spell, and fit with the general "smart fighting" that Factotums tend to do. So, there's some advice, if you go Factotum. If you go Beguiler... well, I haven't played one. So next game I'm in, I will! - Johnny
Jaxgaret 09-29-07, 12:09 AM	If you do decide to take the Factotum, take it from someone who's played one extensively - Font of Inspiration should not be your only feat. It should be several, perhaps even many, of your feat choices, but there are a few others that you simply can't be without. Namely, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. You'll get more mileage out of that one than you ever will from Font of Inspiration. That is one snazzy feat for a Factotum. What are some of the others? Also, thanks for the agreement on FoI being a good selection for the bulk of a Factotum's feats. The reason for it is inherent in the design of the feat - the more times you take it, the more benefit you get out of each selection.