Beguiler vs. Illusionist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler vs. Illusionist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sines
09-18-06, 06:37 PM Welp, had my first game with a Beguiler, and can't say it went terribly well. It was a fun game, but it did bring to mind some of my more notable weaknessess. Of the two fights I got in, one was against Skeletons, mindless, and the other was against an Otyugh (Uses Scent, and Will +6). The Otyugh was the big ecounter, but that +6 Will save decimated me. While it was partly bad luck on my part, not one spell got off, and I used 5. The Scent feature, of course, made it immune to Silent Image.

Anyway, just wondering how well the Beguiler pans out at later levels. As far as I can tell, its Mind-Affecting Will Saves all the way. Perfectly fine against enemies not immune to those, but given my DMs love of the undead, I wonder how often I'll have options. I can't reliably use my UMD for quite some time.

So, the question is, what are some lower level Beguiler ways around the mindless and the Will saves. Best I have seen from my spell list so far, is that mindless creatures (Not intelligent immune to MA) wouldn't think to walk through illusionary barriers, pits, ect... due to sheer lack of logic. I'm thinking of just changing to an Illusionist, staying in character, just changing the mechanics. The party already has all the skills that I'd bring to the table covered.

Thanks for the advice
Forgember
09-18-06, 07:00 PM A friend of mine is curently playing a Beguiler and it seems like he would have more fun if he had some type of weapon to fall back on during Undead/Anti Mind Effecting encounters. I don't have the book with Beguiler in it personally so I have no idea what weapons they can use if any. Seems to me that a nice back up crossbow would come in handy alot and keep you usefull during them tough encounters. I am aware that they get Wizard attacks but with a good magic crossbow and some dex pumpers you should be able to get off a good shot or two during a fight. Hope that helps :D
Chainsaw
09-18-06, 07:07 PM Beguilers basically get rogue weapon selections and they rely very very highly on their spellcasting and skills to get things done rather than combat. I personally have never played one but I also wonder about their abilities in combats containing things immune or nearly immune to mind affecting spells.
wingedcoyote
09-18-06, 07:08 PM They're proficient with simple weapons, rapiers, shortswords, shortbow, hand crossbows... I think that's it, but it's not a bad list at all. I'm planning one now, and I think I'll give him a whip (not proficient, but it doesn't matter) so he can feint at 15 feet plus a rapier if he needs to attack up close, and probably a shortbow. And armor spikes when I can afford'em, so he'll still threaten when he's got the whip out.
wal9000
09-18-06, 07:45 PM I'm playing one at eleventh level right now, and I'd say that it works out very well. You should keep in mind that your figments will work against mindless opponents as long as they have eyes (Don't mess with oozes, we fought a living spell once and my only useful option was haste). I highly recommend investing feats in Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for enchantment, and pick up a headband of intellect if you can afford it. Every little bit helps.

You should also make an effort to remember the different kinds of spells that you have on your list. Spider Climb can be an indispensable adventuring tool, and you have access to a few spells that can be immensely helpful to your allies. Put displacement on the tank, and he'll take half as much damage. Blur, invisibility (standard and greater), expeditious retreat, and greater mirror image are all great for avoiding damage.

In combat you'll want to avoid notice. Try to stay invisible whenever you can, or just stay out of sight if that's your only option. Taking combat expertise and improved feint to gain the advantage or surprise casting is a waste of two feats; if they don't know you're there they don't get dex bonus to AC.

Here's a list of spells that I've found are best in combat, in no particular order:
Haste - Makes your party faster, grants AC bonus and extra attacks, among other things.
Slow - Enemies can't take full attack actions, which is a real lifesaver.
Glitterdust - Reveals invisibles, and often blinds. A blind enemy is a dead enemy for all practical purposes.
Color Spray - Often overlooked at higher levels, this spell stuns creatures of 5 or more hit dice. Use it on enemy Fighters, because they have low will saves, and stunning causes them to drop everything held. Takes no actions for a turn (and loses dex bonus to AC for sneak attacking fun if you have a rogue), then gives you all AoO fun when he picks his sword back up.
Displacement - Your fighter/barbarian/whatever will love you.
Halt - If someone tries to run at you to attack you can stop them before they get in range. Immediate actions are great.
Stay the Hand - Similar to Halt, but works for after they get within attack range.
Hold Person / Hold Monster - Paralyzed and waiting for a Coup de Grace.
Feeblemind - Enemy caster just has to fail one save and he's out of the picture.
Etheralness, Swift - An excellent escape spell. Cast it defensively and move wherever you want without worrying about attacks of opportunity.
Mind Fog - Will fail saves just about all saves against your enchantments.
Overwhelm - Deals nonlethal damage equal to target's current HP. Requires a touch attack, so do it while you're invisible. OWNED!
True Seeing - Never know when you might need it. Keep at least one dost of the material component handy.
Dispel Magic (and Greater) - Goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. These spells are awesome.

Can't recommend much above 6th level spells, because I haven't looked at them a whole lot. Up to that point it's a pretty great (if slightly limited in scope) selection of spells. You may want to take Extraordinary Concentration (Complete Adventurer) as your 12th level bonus feat, as it lets you concentrate on a spell (read: illusions) as a move action, so you can cast other spells while you keep them going. It's a high check to do it (concentration DC = 25 + spell level), so skill focus helps. Skill focus (Concentration) is more useful than Combat Casting, because it applies in any situation and the bonus is only 1 less.

Hope this give you a better picture of what they can do at high levels. My save DCs are 19 + spell level, or 21 + spell level for enchantments, but I have crazy high Int, and a Headband of Intellect +6. Good luck with your character, and may he last to high levels!
Sines
09-18-06, 08:55 PM Heh, I was asking for effects I can generate that are useful against Mind Immune or High Will saves enemies. The defensive spells are nice (Especially given our groups ability to heal itself is our angry-at-his-job 6 Strength Paladin :D), but so far, the only way I can deal with enemies without proper minds or high will saves is my illusions. Of course, Illusions + Bluff is something the Beguiler does much better than a Wizard, but it is kinda annoying to have to deal with fairly easily resisted spells.

Ah well. Shortbow it is. Although, being a Gnome drops that down to 1d4 damage... and maybe take some blunt arrows for those skeletons... those do exist somewhere... right?
burntgerbil
09-18-06, 10:20 PM two words...
Solid Fog.

That has helped our party a LOT of times.

That being on the beguilers list was great - worst case scenario, it allows you to flee.
wal9000
09-18-06, 10:43 PM Heh, I was asking for effects I can generate that are useful against Mind Immune or High Will saves enemies. The defensive spells are nice (Especially given our groups ability to heal itself is our angry-at-his-job 6 Strength Paladin :D), but so far, the only way I can deal with enemies without proper minds or high will saves is my illusions. Of course, Illusions + Bluff is something the Beguiler does much better than a Wizard, but it is kinda annoying to have to deal with fairly easily resisted spells.

Ah well. Shortbow it is. Although, being a Gnome drops that down to 1d4 damage... and maybe take some blunt arrows for those skeletons... those do exist somewhere... right?

There are blunt arrows in Races of the Wild, which deal bludgeoning damage, but unfortunately it's nonlethal and they have a shorter range increment. Try asking your DM if you could get some that don't have leather wrapped tips and do lethal damage.

For no save offensive spells you're going to be looking at generally weaker spells. Off the top of my head are:

Obscuring Mist
Silent/Minor/Major Image, as long as they don't interact with it
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust (Save vs. blindness, but vs becoming visible)
Dispel Magic (No save, but requires caster level checks)
Solid Fog
Power Word Blind/Sun/Kill
Spell Turning
Time Stop

I left off the defensive stuff, it's the same as the last list.

But seriously, if you start off the fight with 2 or 3 Mind Fogs until someone fails a save you'll be able to do just about whatever you want to them, even dominate and turn them against your other enemies before killing them. The penalty lasts 2d6 rounds after they leave the fog, so just use it on the wizard that's off to the side of the battlefield, and have him use his ranged spells to help your party. Then he won't need to leave the fog and will probably stay under your control unless he makes a really good save.

And do everything you can to raise those saves! You need it!
Kadasbrass
09-18-06, 10:49 PM UMD and a Wand of Fireballs can do wonders :P
periscope
09-19-06, 01:57 AM For the pesky UMD devices, may I suggest skill focus (UMD) and an item familiar? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

For every 3 skill points that you invest into it, you gain an additional +1 untyped bonus that you can invest into any skill as long as the bonus doesnt exceed the actual number of ranks you have in the skill (and it can put you past maximum ranks).

The only other thing I could say is a take the arcane disciple feat and each one of those spells is on your list and you can use wands of them without hassle (take the sun since your dm like his undead so much, use searing light and sunburst and PONE them).
Nicholas the Paladin
09-20-06, 11:45 AM So, the question is, what are some lower level Beguiler ways around the mindless and the Will saves. Best take the 'extra spell' feat from ComplArc:
choose a Ray-spell, it's great versus Mindless foes ánd against High-will save creatures. Unfortunantly I don't know that many ray spells.

besides that, max out UMD and get yourself a wand of Magic Missiles
BoDiddilly
09-20-06, 09:36 PM In my opion mindles creature are very easy for a beguiler to deal with, becauce they have no intellegance they are easily fooled by illusionary copies and clones, as well as obsticals, Of course those of you who have read my thread on beguilers no exactly what I would done. anyways I considering your troubles I would have to ask what spells you took for advance learning? and what is you level?

Ps Prestidigitation can create sents
Nicholas the Paladin
09-21-06, 02:15 AM In my opion mindles creature are very easy for a beguiler to deal with, becauce they have no intellegance they are easily fooled by illusionary copies and clones, as well as obsticals, Of course those of you who have read my thread on beguilers no exactly what I would done. What's your thread then?

another usefull thread is the beguiler handbook:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=635691

anyways I considering your troubles I would have to ask what spells you took for advance learning? and what is you level?
take the shadow spells with your advanced learning slots.
'shadow binding' from SpC is a nice 1st level spells for your first slot at 3rd beguiler level. After that go for shadow'conj/evoc.
Sines
09-21-06, 09:08 AM Welp, I'm only level 1, so no advanced learning yet. I haven't seen anything terribly interesting on the list of level 1 ench/illusion spells. That being said my DM let me add some personal touch to my spell list by letting me swap out two spells for two other, similarly Beguiler themed, spells (Sleep and Rouse for Serene Visage and Distract Assailant). I have no idea what to take for level 3 Advanced Learning.

I do plan later to take a level of Shadow Adept, to delay the onset of my level 7 Advanced learning so I can take that one for a level 4 Shadow spell, so I can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at level 9.

Feats appear to be taking this fashion. I took Shadow Weave Magic as my first level feat. After that I plan to take Obtain Familiar, as well as the Spell Focus: Illusion I need to take the Shadowcraft Prestige class. However, that second one can wait till level 9. And Obtain Familiar isn't vital, though its better than your standard feat. Skill Focus UMD is lookin' like a good idea these days, if I take it at level 3, my check will be +10 for Wands, and +14 for Scrolls. Not bad, nows I think about it.
NineInchNall
09-21-06, 01:12 PM Why on God's green earth would you want a familiar? A Beguiler can do his own scouting, and you don't have the buffs to make a familiar viable in combat. Furthermore, as a Shadowcraft Mage you'll be spending most of your time invisible and summoning illusory critters onto the field anyway, making the familiar a joke.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sines 09-18-06, 06:37 PM	Welp, had my first game with a Beguiler, and can't say it went terribly well. It was a fun game, but it did bring to mind some of my more notable weaknessess. Of the two fights I got in, one was against Skeletons, mindless, and the other was against an Otyugh (Uses Scent, and Will +6). The Otyugh was the big ecounter, but that +6 Will save decimated me. While it was partly bad luck on my part, not one spell got off, and I used 5. The Scent feature, of course, made it immune to Silent Image. Anyway, just wondering how well the Beguiler pans out at later levels. As far as I can tell, its Mind-Affecting Will Saves all the way. Perfectly fine against enemies not immune to those, but given my DMs love of the undead, I wonder how often I'll have options. I can't reliably use my UMD for quite some time. So, the question is, what are some lower level Beguiler ways around the mindless and the Will saves. Best I have seen from my spell list so far, is that mindless creatures (Not intelligent immune to MA) wouldn't think to walk through illusionary barriers, pits, ect... due to sheer lack of logic. I'm thinking of just changing to an Illusionist, staying in character, just changing the mechanics. The party already has all the skills that I'd bring to the table covered. Thanks for the advice
Forgember 09-18-06, 07:00 PM	A friend of mine is curently playing a Beguiler and it seems like he would have more fun if he had some type of weapon to fall back on during Undead/Anti Mind Effecting encounters. I don't have the book with Beguiler in it personally so I have no idea what weapons they can use if any. Seems to me that a nice back up crossbow would come in handy alot and keep you usefull during them tough encounters. I am aware that they get Wizard attacks but with a good magic crossbow and some dex pumpers you should be able to get off a good shot or two during a fight. Hope that helps :D
Chainsaw 09-18-06, 07:07 PM	Beguilers basically get rogue weapon selections and they rely very very highly on their spellcasting and skills to get things done rather than combat. I personally have never played one but I also wonder about their abilities in combats containing things immune or nearly immune to mind affecting spells.
wingedcoyote 09-18-06, 07:08 PM	They're proficient with simple weapons, rapiers, shortswords, shortbow, hand crossbows... I think that's it, but it's not a bad list at all. I'm planning one now, and I think I'll give him a whip (not proficient, but it doesn't matter) so he can feint at 15 feet plus a rapier if he needs to attack up close, and probably a shortbow. And armor spikes when I can afford'em, so he'll still threaten when he's got the whip out.
wal9000 09-18-06, 07:45 PM	I'm playing one at eleventh level right now, and I'd say that it works out very well. You should keep in mind that your figments will work against mindless opponents as long as they have eyes (Don't mess with oozes, we fought a living spell once and my only useful option was haste). I highly recommend investing feats in Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for enchantment, and pick up a headband of intellect if you can afford it. Every little bit helps. You should also make an effort to remember the different kinds of spells that you have on your list. Spider Climb can be an indispensable adventuring tool, and you have access to a few spells that can be immensely helpful to your allies. Put displacement on the tank, and he'll take half as much damage. Blur, invisibility (standard and greater), expeditious retreat, and greater mirror image are all great for avoiding damage. In combat you'll want to avoid notice. Try to stay invisible whenever you can, or just stay out of sight if that's your only option. Taking combat expertise and improved feint to gain the advantage or surprise casting is a waste of two feats; if they don't know you're there they don't get dex bonus to AC. Here's a list of spells that I've found are best in combat, in no particular order: Haste - Makes your party faster, grants AC bonus and extra attacks, among other things. Slow - Enemies can't take full attack actions, which is a real lifesaver. Glitterdust - Reveals invisibles, and often blinds. A blind enemy is a dead enemy for all practical purposes. Color Spray - Often overlooked at higher levels, this spell stuns creatures of 5 or more hit dice. Use it on enemy Fighters, because they have low will saves, and stunning causes them to drop everything held. Takes no actions for a turn (and loses dex bonus to AC for sneak attacking fun if you have a rogue), then gives you all AoO fun when he picks his sword back up. Displacement - Your fighter/barbarian/whatever will love you. Halt - If someone tries to run at you to attack you can stop them before they get in range. Immediate actions are great. Stay the Hand - Similar to Halt, but works for after they get within attack range. Hold Person / Hold Monster - Paralyzed and waiting for a Coup de Grace. Feeblemind - Enemy caster just has to fail one save and he's out of the picture. Etheralness, Swift - An excellent escape spell. Cast it defensively and move wherever you want without worrying about attacks of opportunity. Mind Fog - Will fail saves just about all saves against your enchantments. Overwhelm - Deals nonlethal damage equal to target's current HP. Requires a touch attack, so do it while you're invisible. OWNED! True Seeing - Never know when you might need it. Keep at least one dost of the material component handy. Dispel Magic (and Greater) - Goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. These spells are awesome. Can't recommend much above 6th level spells, because I haven't looked at them a whole lot. Up to that point it's a pretty great (if slightly limited in scope) selection of spells. You may want to take Extraordinary Concentration (Complete Adventurer) as your 12th level bonus feat, as it lets you concentrate on a spell (read: illusions) as a move action, so you can cast other spells while you keep them going. It's a high check to do it (concentration DC = 25 + spell level), so skill focus helps. Skill focus (Concentration) is more useful than Combat Casting, because it applies in any situation and the bonus is only 1 less. Hope this give you a better picture of what they can do at high levels. My save DCs are 19 + spell level, or 21 + spell level for enchantments, but I have crazy high Int, and a Headband of Intellect +6. Good luck with your character, and may he last to high levels!
Sines 09-18-06, 08:55 PM	Heh, I was asking for effects I can generate that are useful against Mind Immune or High Will saves enemies. The defensive spells are nice (Especially given our groups ability to heal itself is our angry-at-his-job 6 Strength Paladin :D), but so far, the only way I can deal with enemies without proper minds or high will saves is my illusions. Of course, Illusions + Bluff is something the Beguiler does much better than a Wizard, but it is kinda annoying to have to deal with fairly easily resisted spells. Ah well. Shortbow it is. Although, being a Gnome drops that down to 1d4 damage... and maybe take some blunt arrows for those skeletons... those do exist somewhere... right?
burntgerbil 09-18-06, 10:20 PM	two words... Solid Fog. That has helped our party a LOT of times. That being on the beguilers list was great - worst case scenario, it allows you to flee.
wal9000 09-18-06, 10:43 PM	Heh, I was asking for effects I can generate that are useful against Mind Immune or High Will saves enemies. The defensive spells are nice (Especially given our groups ability to heal itself is our angry-at-his-job 6 Strength Paladin :D), but so far, the only way I can deal with enemies without proper minds or high will saves is my illusions. Of course, Illusions + Bluff is something the Beguiler does much better than a Wizard, but it is kinda annoying to have to deal with fairly easily resisted spells. Ah well. Shortbow it is. Although, being a Gnome drops that down to 1d4 damage... and maybe take some blunt arrows for those skeletons... those do exist somewhere... right? There are blunt arrows in Races of the Wild, which deal bludgeoning damage, but unfortunately it's nonlethal and they have a shorter range increment. Try asking your DM if you could get some that don't have leather wrapped tips and do lethal damage. For no save offensive spells you're going to be looking at generally weaker spells. Off the top of my head are: Obscuring Mist Silent/Minor/Major Image, as long as they don't interact with it Fog Cloud Glitterdust (Save vs. blindness, but vs becoming visible) Dispel Magic (No save, but requires caster level checks) Solid Fog Power Word Blind/Sun/Kill Spell Turning Time Stop I left off the defensive stuff, it's the same as the last list. But seriously, if you start off the fight with 2 or 3 Mind Fogs until someone fails a save you'll be able to do just about whatever you want to them, even dominate and turn them against your other enemies before killing them. The penalty lasts 2d6 rounds after they leave the fog, so just use it on the wizard that's off to the side of the battlefield, and have him use his ranged spells to help your party. Then he won't need to leave the fog and will probably stay under your control unless he makes a really good save. And do everything you can to raise those saves! You need it!
Kadasbrass 09-18-06, 10:49 PM	UMD and a Wand of Fireballs can do wonders :P
periscope 09-19-06, 01:57 AM	For the pesky UMD devices, may I suggest skill focus (UMD) and an item familiar? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm For every 3 skill points that you invest into it, you gain an additional +1 untyped bonus that you can invest into any skill as long as the bonus doesnt exceed the actual number of ranks you have in the skill (and it can put you past maximum ranks). The only other thing I could say is a take the arcane disciple feat and each one of those spells is on your list and you can use wands of them without hassle (take the sun since your dm like his undead so much, use searing light and sunburst and PONE them).
Nicholas the Paladin 09-20-06, 11:45 AM	So, the question is, what are some lower level Beguiler ways around the mindless and the Will saves. Best take the 'extra spell' feat from ComplArc: choose a Ray-spell, it's great versus Mindless foes ánd against High-will save creatures. Unfortunantly I don't know that many ray spells. besides that, max out UMD and get yourself a wand of Magic Missiles
BoDiddilly 09-20-06, 09:36 PM	In my opion mindles creature are very easy for a beguiler to deal with, becauce they have no intellegance they are easily fooled by illusionary copies and clones, as well as obsticals, Of course those of you who have read my thread on beguilers no exactly what I would done. anyways I considering your troubles I would have to ask what spells you took for advance learning? and what is you level? Ps Prestidigitation can create sents
Nicholas the Paladin 09-21-06, 02:15 AM	In my opion mindles creature are very easy for a beguiler to deal with, becauce they have no intellegance they are easily fooled by illusionary copies and clones, as well as obsticals, Of course those of you who have read my thread on beguilers no exactly what I would done. What's your thread then? another usefull thread is the beguiler handbook: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=635691 anyways I considering your troubles I would have to ask what spells you took for advance learning? and what is you level? take the shadow spells with your advanced learning slots. 'shadow binding' from SpC is a nice 1st level spells for your first slot at 3rd beguiler level. After that go for shadow'conj/evoc.
Sines 09-21-06, 09:08 AM	Welp, I'm only level 1, so no advanced learning yet. I haven't seen anything terribly interesting on the list of level 1 ench/illusion spells. That being said my DM let me add some personal touch to my spell list by letting me swap out two spells for two other, similarly Beguiler themed, spells (Sleep and Rouse for Serene Visage and Distract Assailant). I have no idea what to take for level 3 Advanced Learning. I do plan later to take a level of Shadow Adept, to delay the onset of my level 7 Advanced learning so I can take that one for a level 4 Shadow spell, so I can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at level 9. Feats appear to be taking this fashion. I took Shadow Weave Magic as my first level feat. After that I plan to take Obtain Familiar, as well as the Spell Focus: Illusion I need to take the Shadowcraft Prestige class. However, that second one can wait till level 9. And Obtain Familiar isn't vital, though its better than your standard feat. Skill Focus UMD is lookin' like a good idea these days, if I take it at level 3, my check will be +10 for Wands, and +14 for Scrolls. Not bad, nows I think about it.
NineInchNall 09-21-06, 01:12 PM	Why on God's green earth would you want a familiar? A Beguiler can do his own scouting, and you don't have the buffs to make a familiar viable in combat. Furthermore, as a Shadowcraft Mage you'll be spending most of your time invisible and summoning illusory critters onto the field anyway, making the familiar a joke.