Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blackjackg 01-17-07, 02:31 AM	Hey folks, I'm weighing the relative merits of these classes. The character I have in mind is a (Lesser) Tiefling who's essentially a sneak-attack rogue but backed up with magic. So, I've got some pros and cons. I'm looking for recommendations as to what's most important, and any other factors I've missed. Remember that Tieflings get a bonus to Int and a penalty to Cha. Beguiler Pros: Casts with Int, more-or-less full casting, cool Cloaked casting. Cons: No sneak attack, limited spell selection. Spellthief Pros: Sneak attack, very cool Steal Spell abilities Cons: Casts with Cha, poor spellcasting. Wizard/Rogue Pros: Casts with Int, good spell selection, sneak attack and other roguey goodness. Cons: General multiclassing woes. Anyway, anyone got any suggestions, 'cause I just can't decide.
mittenninja 01-17-07, 03:15 AM	Personally i've seen a few of all of these in actual gameplay with my group. Overall I'd have to say that the Beguiler is the best overall option to go with. Granted you don't get the sneak attack but almost everything else a rogue can do can be replicated using the beguiler. Besides, who's going to complain about losing a little sneak attack damage for full spellcasting?
Grimmsfeld 01-17-07, 03:17 AM	Well, you've pretty much ruled out the beguiler for your build yourself, since it indeed, does not grant sneak attack damage. The spellthief, you don't really need a high charisma score, say as high as a sorcer would, but it does need to be at least 14 to get all your spells. Other than that, I don't think anything else for the spellthief really builds on charisma, so it might be an ok option, although you get far less sneak attack dice from what I'm going to suggest next. Depending on your race and multiclass restraints, you could possibly do one level of rogue, one level of spellthief, six of wizard, and be into the arcane trickster PrC by level 8, which gives full spellcasting advancement for wizard and full sneak attack advancement(by full advancement, I mean +1d6 every other level), plus some other goodies. Might be worth a look. If the multiclassing is a little out of hand, just do rogue3/wizard5 to qualify for the trickster. Streamlines the build a bit, and drops the need for a decent charisma score. Given the first build, you could do spellthief1/rogue1/wizard6/arcane trickster10/wizard2 and have 18 levels of wizard spellcasting and 7d6 sneak attack; you could always cover the missing wizard caster levels with Practiced Spellcaster and buying a few extra spells to scribe into your spellbook. Also, with that first build, once the dust settles and there's an official ruling on the feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets other caster levels stack for the purposes of what level of spell you can steal, you might still be able to salvage a great deal of the Steal Spell ability. One last little drawback of the rogue1/spellthief1/wizard6/arcanetrickster10/wizard2 build: You have a base attack of +0 for the first three levels, and if you follow that build to 20, you've got a BAB of +9. Unless, you persuade your DM to use the fractional bonuses variant from UA. Then you'd have +10, which is still kind of low for a rogue; but you'd be attacking with spells anyway, which the ones you'd get sneak attack on are going to be touch attacks anyway.
mkill 01-17-07, 05:01 AM	Hey, let's confuse him even more... have you considered Warlock / Rogue? Sneak Attack with Eldritch Blast, roguish Invocations with skill point backup, take 10 on UMD, and general bad-ass flavor?
Northwest 01-18-07, 01:38 PM	I think the beguiler is the best overall mechanically. Having said that, however, I like the "feel" of a rogue/wizard (actually prefer sorc...but w/the tiefling...). Mainly physical abilities with some magic tricks for when you need them. Most of the spells that fit the idea are low level...spider climb, invisibility, knock, dispel magic, identify.
vinny_rex 01-18-07, 02:38 PM	Beguilers are my personal favorite. But then again, Enchantment and Illusion are my favorite schools anyway. I'm lame like that.
navar100 01-19-07, 02:05 AM	If you go with wizard/rogue you can eventually go into Arcane Trickster which will combine the two. I also the like warlock/rogue idea. A rogue will like Beguiling Influence and Leaps & Bounds. Complete Mage offers a similar mechanicInvocation to improve Spot and Search. You'll have to take 6 levels in warlock, so it will be awhile but worth it, you have Walk Unseen - 24 hour invisibility, at will. A ring of invisibility could do the same trick, though, but at in this case you won't need one and can use that ring slot for something else. Take Fell Flight fot flying if you want. If you prefer a combat shtick there's Eldritch Chain. The secondary bolts might only do half damage, but they will allow for full sneak attack. The problem is the number of extra bolts is tied to warlock level so it might be as useful for you, but it's there if you want. I don't recall if Complete Mage has an essentially rogue/warlock prestige class, but if you use Arcane Trickster as a model you can make one. This will allow your eldritch blase to increase in damage as well as get invocation so that you can easily get Walk Unseen and Eldritch Chain will be worth it.
Spellchains 01-19-07, 02:30 AM	Rogue 2. focused illusionist 3. Daggerspell mage 10. Nightmare Spinner 5. Practiced spellcaster makes it all happen and you only pay 3 levels in spellcasting might!
Krusk 01-19-07, 02:40 AM	Wizard/rogue gets my vote. you can go into arcane trickster or the new spellwarp sniper from complete scoundrel. Both are very solid class choices.
mittenninja 01-19-07, 09:37 AM	I also the like warlock/rogue idea. I would like to second that motion.