Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 11-04-07, 06:00 AM	Is it just my misunderstanding, or is the Beguiler grossly underpowered combat wise ? Sure, it has some nice save-or-suck spells (and it's quite capable of running for its life), but it becomes quite useless against opponents with buffed saves and/or immunities.
AnonymousInternets 11-04-07, 06:05 AM	Your best bet against things with strong immunities would probably be illusions, as many of those don't allow SR and are save-free until the enemy actually interacts with them (IE wasted some of their turn).
nonsi 11-04-07, 06:15 AM	Your best bet against things with strong immunities would probably be illusions, as many of those don't allow SR and are save-free until the enemy actually interacts with them (IE wasted some of their turn). Thanks for the insight (point noted and might be exploited in the future), but I wasn't looking for compensation tactics, but was rather asking a general question.
kuonji 11-04-07, 06:23 AM	They aren't underpowered in combat, they are about a half step above useless. At least underpowered could still do some noticable damage. That being said, the player who ran one in my last campaign proved to be one of the most effective characters in the game. The spells available are pretty good and being a spontaneous caster with a large, varied purpose spell list is really nice. Informed opponents targeted him first during the game since he was often the scariest guy on the battlefield.
Kratch 11-04-07, 07:26 AM	Beguillers are quite powerful as a class. They can be devastating to many opponents with their enchantment/skills. The problem lies in the fact that, against some encounters, their power lies in aiding others (through their many buff spells) to accomplish the task rather then hogging the glory for themselves, and this concept is is detestable to some individuals.
nonsi 11-04-07, 07:58 AM	Beguillers are quite powerful as a class. They can be devastating to many opponents with their enchantment/skills. "devastating" sounds a bit optimistic. As levels go up, opponents tend to have ridiculously high saves (from various buffs). The problem lies in the fact that, against some encounters, their power lies in aiding others (through their many buff spells) to accomplish the task rather then hogging the glory for themselves, and this concept is is detestable to some individuals. "aiding others"..... during comabt :confused: Is that with or without relying on opponents failing their saves ?
Kratch 11-04-07, 08:36 AM	"devastating" sounds a bit optimistic. As levels go up, opponents tend to have ridiculously high saves (from various buffs). Perhaps devastating is a "bit" optomistic, but I think your being as optimistic with the "ridiculously high saves" as I was being about "devastating". If the saves became so unmanageable, full casters wouldn't be considered as powerful as they are, after all, most no save sure kills involve multiple spells to accomplish, if their even legal. with that said, I did acknowledge some things would require the use of buffs (which target allies, allies that likely won't feel the need to save, as buffs are beneficial, allies which can then go on to fight the enemy), you know, the part where I mentioned not being a glory hog illusions are a good way to avoid saves (or delay them) if used cleverly. Buffs also avoid saves, as I already mentioned. additionally, the beguiler is quite capable of getting some decent DC's, much like other casters. "aiding others"..... during comabt :confused: Is that with or without relying on opponents failing their saves ? buffs don't generally care about opponents saves, as they are targeting willing allies. thats what I meant by aiding others, demonstrated by the mention of using their various buff spells, which I added in brackets. I'm really not sure what was so confusing about that particular comment, are buffs so foreign to you?
nonsi 11-04-07, 11:15 AM	buffs don't generally care about opponents saves, as they are targeting willing allies. thats what I meant by aiding others, demonstrated by the mention of using their various buff spells, which I added in brackets. I'm really not sure what was so confusing about that particular comment, are buffs so foreign to you? OK. I went over the Beguiler's spell-list and here are all the spells I could come up with that may be useful for allies during combat: ZERO: none 1st: none 2nd: Invisibility (requires touch; ends when attacking), Spider Climb (requires touch) 3rd: none 4th: Freedom of Movement (circumstantial), Greater Invisibility (requires touch) 5th: Break Enchantment (circumstantial - relevant mainly after the damage is done), Swift Etherealness (good one) 6th: none 7th: none 8th: Mind Blank (for prevention rather than buffing) 9th: Etherealness (hardly implementable during combat) This is hardly an appropriate list for a party support. Edit: ok, I missed Haste, but that's about it.
Gnarl 11-04-07, 01:10 PM	Is it just my misunderstanding, or is the Beguiler grossly underpowered combat wise ? Sure, it has some nice save-or-suck spells (and it's quite capable of running for its life), but it becomes quite useless against opponents with buffed saves and/or immunities. Those spells should be able to work against opponents not immuned to them. Are you playing in a very large or high power game where the DM needs to compensate with higher CR monsters? On the other hand, it does lack some firepower against critters immuned to their spells. I've never played one for long, but isn't Use Magic Device good enough to get something usefull to do? (like using a wand of hail of stone or lesser orb).
Kratch 11-04-07, 02:11 PM	OK. I went over the Beguiler's spell-list and here are all the spells I could come up with that may be useful for allies during combat: ZERO: none 1st: none 2nd: Invisibility (requires touch; ends when attacking), Spider Climb (requires touch) 3rd: none 4th: Freedom of Movement (circumstantial), Greater Invisibility (requires touch) 5th: Break Enchantment (circumstantial - relevant mainly after the damage is done), Swift Etherealness (good one) 6th: none 7th: none 8th: Mind Blank (for prevention rather than buffing) 9th: Etherealness (hardly implementable during combat) Some spells you missed 0th: message (good for informing allies of tactics and relaying needs without the enemy hearing. nothing sucks more then the primary fighter screaming "I need a heal" and having the badguys go before the healer gets to and all turning on him) 1st: Expeditious retreat (I don't know how often I hear "mobility is king" on these boards) 2nd: Blur (miss chances are always good for anyone in melee), Detect thoughts (again, works well for group communication, much like message), see invis/silence (situational, but can help against various undead that cast/use sonic attacks). 3rd: you already acknowledged missing haste (an awesome spell for buffing melees), Displacement (miss chances are always good), legion of sentinals (flankers and bonus AoO's are helpful) 4th: you got them 5th: rary's telepathic bond 6th: true seeing 7th: spell turning 8th-9th: you got them Thats also not including things like solid fog that don't get SR/saves, they just work. This is hardly an appropriate list for a party support. Considering the small size of the beguiler list, and the fact that his party support is only in the case of enchantment/illusion immune creatures (which aren't altogether too common, especially illusions), it is a sufficient list to be helpful, certainly far from useless. these buffs alone would not make a good character, thankfully they are not alone, beguilers have enchantment illusions to go with these.
bkdubs123 11-04-07, 02:20 PM	Beguiler actually has the chance to get the highest save DCs in the game by sneaking up on enemies and Surprise Casting on them. I don't know why anyone is complaining about the high saves of monsters... if you're having trouble overcoming saves, that isn't the Beguiler's fault just pick up Spell Focus (enchantment) and you've pretty much encompassed your entire list of offensive muscle. Great spells to use in combat that you apparently don't know about... - 1st: Charm Person, Color Spray, Obscuring Mist, Sleep; 2nd: BLINDING COLOR SURGE, Fog Cloud, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Stay the Hand, Touch of Idiocy, Vertigo; 3rd: Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, Halt, Hold Person, Inevitable Defeat, Legion of Sentinels, Major Image, Slow, Suggestion, Zone of Silence; 4th: Charm Monster, Confusion, Greater Invisibility, GREATER MIRROR IMAGE, Rainbow Pattern, Solid Fog, ... You know what, I'm just going to stop. The Beguiler is all about throwing around potent debuffs. I played a Beguiler and with a little Warblade multiclassing I could usually kill monsters myself after I debuffed them so badly. For the first two levels I was Beguiler 2, but was sneaking around casting and attacking with my Rapier and got more kills than our Warforged Fighter! For the first couple of levels you lack any sort of direct damage (whelm, you don't count) but that doesn't mean your debuffs are any less important. Hell, level 1, cast sleep on some goblins, coup de grace. Sneak up on them by 2nd level to make it even easier to effect them.
nonsi 11-04-07, 03:19 PM	Some spells you missed 0th: message (good for informing allies of tactics and relaying needs without the enemy hearing. nothing sucks more then the primary fighter screaming "I need a heal" and having the badguys go before the healer gets to and all turning on him) 1st: Expeditious retreat (I don't know how often I hear "mobility is king" on these boards) 2nd: Blur (miss chances are always good for anyone in melee), Detect thoughts (again, works well for group communication, much like message), see invis/silence (situational, but can help against various undead that cast/use sonic attacks). 3rd: you already acknowledged missing haste (an awesome spell for buffing melees), Displacement (miss chances are always good), legion of sentinals (flankers and bonus AoO's are helpful) 4th: you got them 5th: rary's te lepathic bond 6th: true seeing 7th: spell turning 8th-9th: you got them Thats also not including things like solid fog that don't get SR/saves, they just work. >> 0th: message That's pre-combat or combat preventing, not an in-combat spell. >> 2nd: Blur, Detect thoughts. Ok, I missed Blur, but it requires touch and only confers 20% damage negation. Guess it's better than nothing, but this would not be my ace in the hole in dire straights. As for Detect Thoughts... same as Message. >> 3rd: Displacement, Legion of Sentinals Displacement... same as Blur. Legion of Sentinals... finally a decent combat buffing spell (but I failed to find what their BAB is). This ammounts to 3 decent combat oriented spells (non of which produce direct damage, btw). >> 5th: rary's telepathic bond It has its usefulness if cast in advance, but I'm not sure this would be the right choice in case of emergency. >> 6th: true seeing Another counter measure, not a buffer spell. >> 7th: spell turning Self only, not ally support.
Kratch 11-04-07, 03:47 PM	Legion of Sentinals... finally a decent combat buffing spell (but I failed to find what their BAB is). This ammounts to 3 decent combat oriented spells (non of which produce direct damage, btw). If your looking for direct damage, your looking at the wrong class. Beguilers are powerful, but their methods are far more subtle. They have always fit well into my play style, as I prefer playing casters that don't draw attention to themselves, instead, they draw attention away, by using effects that create diversions (illusions), enhance others to a greater threat (buffs) or have no visible effect to be traced back to it's source (enchantments) I do believe I said "aid allies during combat (using buffs)", those advance casting spells fit into this description (such as detect thought and message), as to the in combat buffs such as haste and displacement (note that they have decent buffs (like mirror image and invis) and armour options to allow them to buff relatively safely, even in close melee, and their medium BAB allows them to participate in combat, even if only as an added flanker and minimalist damage. as for blur, 20% doesn't seem like much, but in the low levels, when it would be used most (the higher levels would more often use displacement), it is still pretty significant, and more then enough to help out against the very rare number of creatures immune to mind effecting effects
The_Shaman 11-04-07, 03:48 PM	I never thought beguilers were supposed to excel at combat - like bards, their focus is supposed to lie elsewhere. However, as others have pointed out, they have some useful combat spells. Level one has expeditious retreat, sleep, charm person, and color spray (I've used it, and it's not half bad). Higher levels have okay spells as well, though they are often situational. Consider also options like greater dispel magic (at its level, enemies always have some magic), the power words, and the dominate line, for starters - other spells can also be useful at times, and due to the beguiler's spontaneous casting, it means that they're at hand if they're ever needed . IMO, however, if we are to discuss their spell list we should also include the advanced learning feature. Illusion spells contain the shadow subschool, featuring shadow conjuration, evocation, and their higher forms. These improve a beguiler's options tremendously. I think you might have heard of the Shadowcraft Mage beguiler builds... Death by silent image, indeed. Overall, the class isn't as focused on combat as the dread necro or the warmage, but I'd say it's far from useless. On top of that, it's a damn good skillmonkey, and notably tougher than most full arcane casters. I've done an illusion-themed sorcerer once (my first PnP character, in fact) and I almost cried when I saw how useless he was made by the PHB II.
Jaxgaret 11-04-07, 04:06 PM	What you are missing is that direct damage is subpar, and battlefield control/buffing/debuffing is where the real power of casters comes through. You seem to far underestimate the power of spells like Color Spray, Silence, Touch of Idiocy, Haste, Displacement, Dispel/Greater Dispel Magic, Arcane Sight, Freedom of Movement, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, etc etc. And that's just scratching the surface. They have a strong, varied, and altogether useful spell list.
JackSnape 11-04-07, 04:20 PM	Why is anyone expecting a class called "The Beguiler" to be combat based anyway? And I would say that making touch = usless is a bad argument, with some mobility feats and a good dex touch spells are great for buffing and attacks. Besides most buffing should usually be done before combat.
bkdubs123 11-04-07, 04:24 PM	The fact is, they are not underpowered in combat, they just don't deal direct damage. If you want to deal direct damage play a Warmage. If you want other options than buffs/debuffs and illusions then multiclass like I did. You certainly don't need to however.
nonsi 11-04-07, 04:34 PM	Beguiler actually has the chance to get the highest save DCs in the game by sneaking up on enemies and Surprise Casting on them. I don't know why anyone is complaining about the high saves of monsters... if you're having trouble overcoming saves, that isn't the Beguiler's fault just pick up Spell Focus (enchantment) and you've pretty much encompassed your entire list of offensive muscle. I never said the class was totally worthless, but what do you do with it when you're facing constructs, undead, ZERO-INT monsters, outsiders, high-leveled monks, high-CHA paladins heavy on combat-form feats...... or other opponents heavy on the Will save modifiers ? I did find 3 decent combat oriented spells that are practically not situational (Haste, Legion of Sentinels and Swift Etherealness), but 3 is just not enough. You know what, I'm just going to stop. The Beguiler is all about throwing around potent debuffs. As long as they have any effect we're cool, but it seems they're way too easy to go around, since you just can't push the DC limits at the rate your opponents push their resistance modifiers. I played a Beguiler and with a little Warblade multiclassing I could usually kill monsters myself after I debuffed them so badly. For the first two levels I was Beguiler 2, but was sneaking around casting and attacking with my Rapier and got more kills than our Warforged Fighter! For the first couple of levels you lack any sort of direct damage (whelm, you don't count) but that doesn't mean your debuffs are any less important. Hell, level 1, cast sleep on some goblins, coup de grace. Sneak up on them by 2nd level to make it even easier to effect them. I do believe this is the very 1st time I've seen someone on these boards using levels 1 & 2 to argue how powerful a certain class is. Truly a refreshing approach :) The problem is that Sleep doesn't count once you start encountering 5HD+ opponents and Whelm doesn't scale to keep functioning as your heavy canon. Another major problem the Beguiler's facing is low survivability throughout levels 1 - 20 and no significant movement spells (flying, teleportation etc) to rely on as decent getaway means. when you encounter one of your bane opponents (which are about half the opponents out there) you're too easily ending up with nothing much to do other then waiting to die (unless someone else is there to serve as your meatshield or provide your getaway means).
bkdubs123 11-04-07, 06:49 PM	I was just making sure to show that even before multiclassing with Warblade I was useful. As far as encountering Constructs and Undead, well, stay the hell away from them. You specialize in Mind-Effecting Spells. They don't have minds so let your friends take care of em! Holy crap, what an idea! That you don't have to personally kill a monster in every combat encounter! GASP! Go somewhere else, do something else while the party brings down the undead or stick around and give out buffs. Aren't there even feats that let you effect undead with mind effecting spells? I know there are Bardic Music feats, but I thought there were ways for standard spellcasters to do it too. The problem is that Sleep doesn't count once you start encountering 5HD+ opponents and Whelm doesn't scale to keep functioning as your heavy canon. You keep forgetting about the higher level spells... You get Deep Slumber later on. Also, you DON'T HAVE A HEAVY CANNON. Whelm isn't even supposed to serve that purpose. Overwhelm is ALMOST a heavy cannon, but its really high level, and doesn't actually even knock anyone out... anyway, You're a Beguiler, not a Warmage. You don't use cannons to take out foes. Hell, half the time you don't even take out foes. Let me stress something - you don't have to kill a monster to deal with it. In fact, you don't have to kill it to get XP. I can hear you now, "Wha-wha-whaaaat?" Successfully sneaking past some monsters that you'll never see again with Disguise Self (and perhaps some interaction skill checks)? You successfully defeated the encounter. You get experience. Well done. This is of great importance to a Beguiler or characters similar to him (Illusionist Wizards, or Bards). And it is important that DMs for such players reward their more subtle tactics just as much as a Barbarian's more direct approach. If you're concerned with the survivability of Beguiler's due to their lack of movement spells, give them Hide in Plain Sight at higher levels, and expand their spell list a bit to give them options that thwart tremorsense, blindsense and the like. You might consider the various Hide from Undead like spells as well. (They may not have teleportation, but they do have Freedom of Movement, Swift Etherealness, Shadow Walk, Ethereal Jaunt, Phase Door, Etherealness and Time Stop and the various invisibility spells and move silently/hide tactics at low levels.) One thing I do as a houserule for classes like Warmage and Beguiler is rule that Advanced Learning can grab ANY spell from any school. That way Warmages can grab some choice enchantments and Beguilers can grab some other nifty utility or damage dealing spells that they might like.
Treantmonklvl20 11-04-07, 07:45 PM	The Beguiler in our group was really just a battlefield controller at low levels (illusionary wall here - sleep spell there) However, now he is our most powerful combatant. Battle begins and his many willing thralls (he calls them "friends") are into combat like dirty shirts.
Jaxgaret 11-04-07, 10:16 PM	However, now he is our most powerful combatant. Battle begins and his many willing thralls (he calls them "friends") are into combat like dirty shirts. :rofl: Nice.
Kratch 11-04-07, 10:53 PM	Another major problem the Beguiler's facing is low survivability throughout levels 1 - 20 and no significant movement spells (flying, teleportation etc) to rely on as decent getaway means. their no less survivable then a rogue, and I've rarely/never seen it as a problem for them (it's always a consideration, but not a problem). It seems to me your trying to play it like a wizard (expecting it to have the same offensive and mobility options), but it's not a wizard. if you can't understand and accept the differences, don't play this class, it's not for you. however, this is not a fault of the class. when you encounter one of your bane opponents (which are about half the opponents out there) you're too easily ending up with nothing much to do other then waiting to die (unless someone else is there to serve as your meatshield or provide your getaway means). (looking at the bolded statement) Last I checked, thats what parties were for. the fact you would mention this as an "unless" (as if it often won't be the case) gives me concerns about how you play. the only thing I can think of is your DMing and that your planning to use this as a BBEG and your players group is made up of the above mentioned monk and paladin.
Cainin 11-05-07, 08:54 AM	If you want to raise your Beguiler's pure damage capability, I have a suggestion for you. Assuming that you can use Dragon Magic and Complete Arcane (w/ possibly Races of the Dragon), you can use you feats to gain a damage output. It requires the feats Dragontouched (DM), Draconic Heritage (CA / RotD), and Draconic Breath (CA / RotD). Assuming that you're playing a human, you can have a breath weapon by 3rd level. So when you're stumped by SR and creatures immune to you spells, you can simply use your supernatural breath weapon until you run out of spell slots.
Nelyo 11-05-07, 10:20 AM	I think you're overlooking a couple factors. One, the Beguiler has better hit points than a wizard and the ability to wear light armor from level 1. The Beguiler is at least as survivable as a rogue, and even moreso thanks to easy access to spells like expeditious retreat and invisibility (there aren't many zero-int or otherwise mind-affecting immune creatures who can also see invisibility). Also, you're forgetting a couple more useful spells, slow and solid fog, both of which are very useful in debuffing and controlling your opponents. You are right, though, in that the Beguiler has a disturbing lack of high-level offensive spells that aren't mind-affecting. Thus, in the second half of your Beguiler's career (levels 10-20) you have a few options for dealing with opponents immune to your best tricks: Make some "friends" with the dominate spell; gain a method of doing direct damage, such as Cainin's Draconic Breath suggestion, using Advanced Learning to pick up shadow evocation/conjuration, or going into Shadowcraft Mage; or grin and bear it and use your lower level spells to provide some help to your party members while they deal with the problem. In the end, the Beguiler just isn't made to deal direct damage and, as an obvious alternative to a rogue, you have to expect that they will be (mostly) useless in the same situations that make rogues (mostly) useless. Remember, though, that Beguilers share something else in common with rogues: the Use Magic Device skill. Get yourself a staff of excessive property damage or something for the corner cases.
Gnarl 11-05-07, 04:19 PM	It requires the feats Dragontouched (DM), Draconic Heritage (CA / RotD), and Draconic Breath (CA / RotD). Assuming that you're playing a human, you can have a breath weapon by 3rd level. Don't you need to be a sorcerer to get Draconic Heritage? them to buff relatively safely, even in close melee, and their medium BAB allows them to participate in combat, even if only as an added flanker and minimalist damage. Medium? Isn't it awful?
Kratch 11-05-07, 04:29 PM	Medium? Isn't it awful? It is awful. my bad.
Cainin 11-06-07, 09:02 AM	Don't you need to be a sorcerer to get Draconic Heritage? Not neccessarily. As I mentioned, the build requires taking the Dragontouched feat from Dragon Magic. Amongst its various minor benefits, it lets the character counts as a Sorceror equal to its character level for the purposes of taking Draconic descriptor feats. Thus the character could then taking Draconic Heritage and all of its build on feats.
The_Shaman 11-06-07, 09:53 AM	If you want to raise your Beguiler's pure damage capability, I have a suggestion for you. Assuming that you can use Dragon Magic and Complete Arcane (w/ possibly Races of the Dragon), you can use you feats to gain a damage output. It requires the feats Dragontouched (DM), Draconic Heritage (CA / RotD), and Draconic Breath (CA / RotD). Assuming that you're playing a human, you can have a breath weapon by 3rd level. So when you're stumped by SR and creatures immune to you spells, you can simply use your supernatural breath weapon until you run out of spell slots. Archmage beguilers can use arcane fire to deal damage. The skill focus in spellcraft is a bit unnecessary unless your DM allows you to research a spell or two to add to your list (which can be very, very good, but is expensive and requires a lot of downtime).
Arcane Guyver 11-06-07, 03:15 PM	As others have said, you're best off looking at UMD for any damage-dealing effects you may desire (or, at low levels, crossbow & alchemical grenades). If you're really concerned about upping your combat potential with your Beguiler spells, try to get Spell Focus (enchantment), Unsettling Enchantment (CM 28), and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment).
arjomanes 11-06-07, 03:30 PM	I agree to an extent with the OP in that Beguilers can really struggle at high levels vs enemies that are immune to mind-controlling effects or that have true seeing (or both). But the beguiler has options built in to combat this weakness. UMD is a skill that cannot be overemphasized. While not quite as effective as a warlock's UMD, the beguiler can use wands and scrolls to great use. Another class feature that is critical is intelligent use of Advanced Learning. I feel that the shadow conjuration and evocation spells go a long way to shoring up any potential weaknesses in the beguiler's toolkit at higher levels, and are sufficient to allow a beguiler 20 to compete with other level 20 casters. Sure you won't have some of the ridiculous broken spells, but you'll more than adequately handle CR20 encounters in a normal group. Additionally, as has been mentioned before, enchanting low will enemies to do your dirty work for you is a remarkably good strategy. Just as you don't want to sunder the +3 sword or the wand of lightning your enemy has, you don't want to destroy all the potential mooks you can use to accomplish your goals. Overall, there are plenty of options to use against a wide range of enemies. Most undead and golems will still be affected by figments. Many enemies will be able to be enchanted even into higher levels. There are many battlefield control spells. But you will come across enemies that cannot be mind controlled or that have true seeing, more frequently at higher levels. At those levels you will need to resort to UMD, or shadow spells, or directing henchmen, or assisting allies and controlling the battlefield. The challenge will be greater in these instances, and you'll need to be more creative.