Beguiler: A big deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler: A big deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dude1057
02-14-07, 06:17 PM I just got the players handbook 2 and there is a new class in there called Beguiler. Its kinda like a dishonest one. You are somewhat a rogue but yet you have magic. You are known for tricks and lying. My question is has anybody played as a Beuiler yet and is it really as good as what it says?
malisteen
02-14-07, 06:27 PM I've played one. They're a lot fun, but can have difficulty in combat if you fight a lot of enemies that are immune to mental attacks, like vermin, undead, constructs, and so forth. They're best in urban campaigns with a lot of sneakery and social interaction, where their skills and spells can be put to the most use.

In regular campaigns, they substitute fairly well for skill monkey. If your DM allows them the eclectic learning Warblade variant from PHBII they can even try to substitute for arcane caster, although that's more difficult.
Witch
02-14-07, 06:31 PM They look awesome. They're not extraordinarily powerful ingame. Sometimes, I get a bit bored by lack of options. (Though that might be the campaign's fault sometimes.)
FrostHammer
02-14-07, 06:33 PM If by "regular" you mean "combat-focused" then yes.

Not all campaigns default to "kick-in the door" styles. Anyhow, even in fighting-intensive sessions, you can still contribute a lot. You are the master at fooling enemies, and with Shadow spells you can have damage as well.
dude1057
02-14-07, 06:53 PM So would you say that a Beguiler is a good replacment for a rogue. I am a rogue right now and if he dies I need a backup.
Witch
02-14-07, 07:48 PM For a rogue? It depends on why the rogue was there. Was it there mainly for being a social character, a skillmonkey or a trapfinder? Then surely.
FrostHammer
02-14-07, 07:53 PM A Beguiler is a Rogue with less base skill points (but since her primary ability is Intelligence, it ends up about the same or even more. My Human Beguiler at level 1 had 48 skill points to spend).

You also trade in Sneak Attack for Spell Casting. hitpoints are the same, and Rogue do survive better with the evasion and uncanny dodge and all that, but magic can help you survive in other ways.

A beguielr has the same trapfinding and disabling abilities as the rogue as well.
TheCobra
02-14-07, 07:53 PM Beguilers look almost strictly better than rogues to me.

Undead foes should blasted with shadow spells or controlled with enchantment spells via song of the dead.
Jaxgaret
02-14-07, 07:57 PM Beguilers look almost strictly better than rogues to me.

Undead foes should blasted with shadow spells or controlled with enchantment spells via song of the dead.

Yeah, they're definitely at least a little higher on the power scale than Rogues. Then again, it's hard not to be as a caster.
dude1057
02-14-07, 08:07 PM A Beguiler is a Rogue with less base skill points (but since her primary ability is Intelligence, it ends up about the same or even more. My Human Beguiler at level 1 had 48 skill points to spend).

You also trade in Sneak Attack for Spell Casting. hitpoints are the same, and Rogue do survive better with the evasion and uncanny dodge and all that, but magic can help you survive in other ways.

A beguielr has the same trapfinding and disabling abilities as the rogue as well.

I'm kinda going on a gnome Beguiler. Just kinda seems to fit really to me. The hard part will be trying to hide who I really am from the other party members. They will figure out my class in no time.
FrostHammer
02-14-07, 08:17 PM It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments.
dude1057
02-14-07, 08:21 PM It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments.

Arent they bad fighters? I mean they don't have anything that would be worth it. Wouldn't they be more of a rogue/sorcerer?
JonnySpaz
02-14-07, 08:38 PM He was quoting order of the stick. It was pretty funny
Bopple
02-14-07, 08:41 PM If you are going to be a gnome beguiler, then Shadowcraft Mage PrC will make you much more powerful.

BTW, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are not beguiler spells.
You have to learn it with Advanced Learning ability.
MerrikCale
02-14-07, 08:46 PM I like them. They are a nice combo class (rogue/sorcerer) and fill a nice niche.
FrostHammer
02-15-07, 03:25 AM He was quoting order of the stick. It was pretty funny

*bows* Thank you. I'll be here all week.
foginator
02-20-07, 12:32 PM If you are going to be a gnome beguiler, then Shadowcraft Mage PrC will make you much more powerful.

BTW, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are not beguiler spells.
You have to learn it with Advanced Learning ability.

Unfortunately advanced learning only allows sorcer/wizard spells of the enchantment or illusion school only, so all conjuration/evocation spells are in no ways a possibility.

I am also playing a beguiler who is currently lvl 4 and due to bad rolls he has been mostly a very ineffective class, but has great potential which i have no doubt he will be showing in higher lvls. The tide of battle, no doubt would have been turned quickly if i could have caught a break on monsters saving throws.:ahem:
MerlintheTuna
02-20-07, 12:41 PM Unfortunately advanced learning only allows sorcer/wizard spells of the enchantment or illusion school only, so all conjuration/evocation spells are in no ways a possibility.I disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) entirely. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm)
DreamerInsane
02-20-07, 01:26 PM It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments.

And that doesn't strike you as needlessly complicated?
;)
Pangeon
02-20-07, 01:55 PM And that doesn't strike you as needlessly complicated?

Not until this moment, no.

Beguilers are really fun to play.
The only problem with them, IMO, is that their usefulness can be very situational- as has been mentioned, they can be amazing in an urban environment, for example, but be completely useless against constructs.
The_Shaman
02-20-07, 02:02 PM Depends. Shadow illusions retain some usefulness against anything, and any illusion/enchantment/evocation/abjuration/precision damage-based character would have problems against a golem. That you are less well suited to handle some situations doesn't make you weak in general.
Zanchief
02-20-07, 02:32 PM Not until this moment, no.

Beguilers are really fun to play.
The only problem with them, IMO, is that their usefulness can be very situational- as has been mentioned, they can be amazing in an urban environment, for example, but be completely useless against constructs.

Just really make sure that Slow sticks.
foginator
02-20-07, 02:35 PM I disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) entirely. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm)

Well i stand corrected, although I do wonder what book thats from.

I would think that it woudln't be all that usefull. A jack of all trades isn't what a beguiler is, he's highly specialized, bothering with those kinds of spells kinda muddies him down.
eggplantm
02-20-07, 02:53 PM I have seen a beguiler played up to level 13 and I believe they are a useful class that can fill the role of the rogue as the skill heavy trapfinder (lots of skill points and all the trapfinding abilities) a primary spellcaster (as many spells as the sorcerer and up to 9th level spells) or as support.

The support role comes more into play when facing constructs or undead. The beguiler is far from useless in these situations. Use Magic Device can allow you to overcome any situation (our beguiler carries a staff of fire) and the class has plenty of buffing spells like haste, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, etc.

Our player has never really capitalized on the bequiler's cloaked casting abilities but I think these could be very useful. Her spell DC's are quite high anyway and most things that fail their saves are basically out of the combat.

The class requires a cautious and strategic player to get the most out of it. you cannot compete very well in direct magical power as all of your spells are indirect. It also depends how your DM adjucates the use of Illusions. I have seem several monsters defeated because they continued to fight an illusion without making a successful will save to disbelieve it.
Averroes
02-20-07, 02:54 PM Being able to cast any spell from your list at any time is very useful. But like they said it doesn't work very well if you are going up against undead or constructs.
I have a beguiler in my campaign and in pretty much any non-combat situation he fixes any problems instantly. In combat without Undead or the like he also controlls it. Spells like 'friend to foe' hesisatate', Hold monster, ect ect ect ect. and the like have a tendency to be very powerful vs low will enemies, and even some high will ones when he does it from invisibility. To be honest he is probably one of the most annoying PC's (not player) I've ever dealt with. I hope I don't have in many of my camgaigns.
Felirc
02-20-07, 03:08 PM although I do wonder what book thats from

It's from the Players Handbook. :P I don't have mine with me or I'd tell you the page number. As for the Beguiler, I don't own a PHB2 (yet).:weep: But I have heard some great things about the class from these boards. Don't forget that a Rogue will have a hard time against constructs and undead too.

-Felirc-
fuzzyrabbitstrikesback
02-20-07, 03:19 PM Now maybe I'm just forgetting something very important here, but why would Beguilers be useless against Constructs? I admit I'm a bit rusty regarding Constructs (haven't played for a while, and our campaigns feature few constructs). While I'm sure most Enchantment spells might fail, what about Illusion? The key thing to remember about the Beguiler is that Illusions are godly. Use illusions as distractions, to set up an ambush, or to lure it off a cliff. The possibilities are (seemingly) endless.

Like I said, I could be wrong. I know for a fact, however, that illusions are godly against undead, especially unintelligent ones. Gotta love how they'll never become suspicious about why the walls of a room are suddenly 20 feet closer together :D
teshen
02-20-07, 03:48 PM Now maybe I'm just forgetting something very important here, but why would Beguilers be useless against Constructs?
I think it is because, as mindless, they are immune to many illusion and enchantment effects, just like undead.
Nephlite
02-20-07, 04:45 PM I think it is because, as mindless, they are immune to many illusion and enchantment effects, just like undead.

That is a misconception. Mindless makes you immune to illusion spells that effect the mind not exist.

I create an illusionary monster: the unintelligent undead have no reason to doubt it (they are dumb).

Golem are just as dumb.

Intelligent undead are not as dumb sadly.
FrostHammer
02-20-07, 07:18 PM I forgot, do contructs and golems have high will saves?
MerlintheTuna
02-20-07, 08:25 PM Illusions work just dandy on undead. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html)

Also, constructs have no good saves. They're pretty easy to deal with as long as you have a few spells that don't allow SR. Like, for example... Grease. Golems are made out to be mage-killers, but they don't really follow through in that respect. If anything, it just sucks to be a Rogue.
MerlintheTuna
02-20-07, 08:26 PM I would think that it woudln't be all that usefull. A jack of all trades isn't what a beguiler is, he's highly specialized, bothering with those kinds of spells kinda muddies him down.Think of it as being to spontaneously cast an entire school of spells. It's a nice perk to have, to the point of "If you're a spontaneous caster and don't take this, you're pretty much an idiot."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dude1057 02-14-07, 06:17 PM	I just got the players handbook 2 and there is a new class in there called Beguiler. Its kinda like a dishonest one. You are somewhat a rogue but yet you have magic. You are known for tricks and lying. My question is has anybody played as a Beuiler yet and is it really as good as what it says?
malisteen 02-14-07, 06:27 PM	I've played one. They're a lot fun, but can have difficulty in combat if you fight a lot of enemies that are immune to mental attacks, like vermin, undead, constructs, and so forth. They're best in urban campaigns with a lot of sneakery and social interaction, where their skills and spells can be put to the most use. In regular campaigns, they substitute fairly well for skill monkey. If your DM allows them the eclectic learning Warblade variant from PHBII they can even try to substitute for arcane caster, although that's more difficult.
Witch 02-14-07, 06:31 PM	They look awesome. They're not extraordinarily powerful ingame. Sometimes, I get a bit bored by lack of options. (Though that might be the campaign's fault sometimes.)
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 06:33 PM	If by "regular" you mean "combat-focused" then yes. Not all campaigns default to "kick-in the door" styles. Anyhow, even in fighting-intensive sessions, you can still contribute a lot. You are the master at fooling enemies, and with Shadow spells you can have damage as well.
dude1057 02-14-07, 06:53 PM	So would you say that a Beguiler is a good replacment for a rogue. I am a rogue right now and if he dies I need a backup.
Witch 02-14-07, 07:48 PM	For a rogue? It depends on why the rogue was there. Was it there mainly for being a social character, a skillmonkey or a trapfinder? Then surely.
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 07:53 PM	A Beguiler is a Rogue with less base skill points (but since her primary ability is Intelligence, it ends up about the same or even more. My Human Beguiler at level 1 had 48 skill points to spend). You also trade in Sneak Attack for Spell Casting. hitpoints are the same, and Rogue do survive better with the evasion and uncanny dodge and all that, but magic can help you survive in other ways. A beguielr has the same trapfinding and disabling abilities as the rogue as well.
TheCobra 02-14-07, 07:53 PM	Beguilers look almost strictly better than rogues to me. Undead foes should blasted with shadow spells or controlled with enchantment spells via song of the dead.
Jaxgaret 02-14-07, 07:57 PM	Beguilers look almost strictly better than rogues to me. Undead foes should blasted with shadow spells or controlled with enchantment spells via song of the dead. Yeah, they're definitely at least a little higher on the power scale than Rogues. Then again, it's hard not to be as a caster.
dude1057 02-14-07, 08:07 PM	A Beguiler is a Rogue with less base skill points (but since her primary ability is Intelligence, it ends up about the same or even more. My Human Beguiler at level 1 had 48 skill points to spend). You also trade in Sneak Attack for Spell Casting. hitpoints are the same, and Rogue do survive better with the evasion and uncanny dodge and all that, but magic can help you survive in other ways. A beguielr has the same trapfinding and disabling abilities as the rogue as well. I'm kinda going on a gnome Beguiler. Just kinda seems to fit really to me. The hard part will be trying to hide who I really am from the other party members. They will figure out my class in no time.
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 08:17 PM	It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments.
dude1057 02-14-07, 08:21 PM	It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments. Arent they bad fighters? I mean they don't have anything that would be worth it. Wouldn't they be more of a rogue/sorcerer?
JonnySpaz 02-14-07, 08:38 PM	He was quoting order of the stick. It was pretty funny
Bopple 02-14-07, 08:41 PM	If you are going to be a gnome beguiler, then Shadowcraft Mage PrC will make you much more powerful. BTW, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are not beguiler spells. You have to learn it with Advanced Learning ability.
MerrikCale 02-14-07, 08:46 PM	I like them. They are a nice combo class (rogue/sorcerer) and fill a nice niche.
FrostHammer 02-15-07, 03:25 AM	He was quoting order of the stick. It was pretty funny bows Thank you. I'll be here all week.
foginator 02-20-07, 12:32 PM	If you are going to be a gnome beguiler, then Shadowcraft Mage PrC will make you much more powerful. BTW, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are not beguiler spells. You have to learn it with Advanced Learning ability. Unfortunately advanced learning only allows sorcer/wizard spells of the enchantment or illusion school only, so all conjuration/evocation spells are in no ways a possibility. I am also playing a beguiler who is currently lvl 4 and due to bad rolls he has been mostly a very ineffective class, but has great potential which i have no doubt he will be showing in higher lvls. The tide of battle, no doubt would have been turned quickly if i could have caught a break on monsters saving throws.:ahem:
MerlintheTuna 02-20-07, 12:41 PM	Unfortunately advanced learning only allows sorcer/wizard spells of the enchantment or illusion school only, so all conjuration/evocation spells are in no ways a possibility.I disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) entirely. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm)
DreamerInsane 02-20-07, 01:26 PM	It ain't that hard. Just have your character say that he's a multiclass Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter who specializes (not the gameplay meaning) in Enchantments. And that doesn't strike you as needlessly complicated? ;)
Pangeon 02-20-07, 01:55 PM	And that doesn't strike you as needlessly complicated? Not until this moment, no. Beguilers are really fun to play. The only problem with them, IMO, is that their usefulness can be very situational- as has been mentioned, they can be amazing in an urban environment, for example, but be completely useless against constructs.
The_Shaman 02-20-07, 02:02 PM	Depends. Shadow illusions retain some usefulness against anything, and any illusion/enchantment/evocation/abjuration/precision damage-based character would have problems against a golem. That you are less well suited to handle some situations doesn't make you weak in general.
Zanchief 02-20-07, 02:32 PM	Not until this moment, no. Beguilers are really fun to play. The only problem with them, IMO, is that their usefulness can be very situational- as has been mentioned, they can be amazing in an urban environment, for example, but be completely useless against constructs. Just really make sure that Slow sticks.
foginator 02-20-07, 02:35 PM	I disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) entirely. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) Well i stand corrected, although I do wonder what book thats from. I would think that it woudln't be all that usefull. A jack of all trades isn't what a beguiler is, he's highly specialized, bothering with those kinds of spells kinda muddies him down.
eggplantm 02-20-07, 02:53 PM	I have seen a beguiler played up to level 13 and I believe they are a useful class that can fill the role of the rogue as the skill heavy trapfinder (lots of skill points and all the trapfinding abilities) a primary spellcaster (as many spells as the sorcerer and up to 9th level spells) or as support. The support role comes more into play when facing constructs or undead. The beguiler is far from useless in these situations. Use Magic Device can allow you to overcome any situation (our beguiler carries a staff of fire) and the class has plenty of buffing spells like haste, greater invisibility, freedom of movement, etc. Our player has never really capitalized on the bequiler's cloaked casting abilities but I think these could be very useful. Her spell DC's are quite high anyway and most things that fail their saves are basically out of the combat. The class requires a cautious and strategic player to get the most out of it. you cannot compete very well in direct magical power as all of your spells are indirect. It also depends how your DM adjucates the use of Illusions. I have seem several monsters defeated because they continued to fight an illusion without making a successful will save to disbelieve it.
Averroes 02-20-07, 02:54 PM	Being able to cast any spell from your list at any time is very useful. But like they said it doesn't work very well if you are going up against undead or constructs. I have a beguiler in my campaign and in pretty much any non-combat situation he fixes any problems instantly. In combat without Undead or the like he also controlls it. Spells like 'friend to foe' hesisatate', Hold monster, ect ect ect ect. and the like have a tendency to be very powerful vs low will enemies, and even some high will ones when he does it from invisibility. To be honest he is probably one of the most annoying PC's (not player) I've ever dealt with. I hope I don't have in many of my camgaigns.
Felirc 02-20-07, 03:08 PM	although I do wonder what book thats from It's from the Players Handbook. :P I don't have mine with me or I'd tell you the page number. As for the Beguiler, I don't own a PHB2 (yet).:weep: But I have heard some great things about the class from these boards. Don't forget that a Rogue will have a hard time against constructs and undead too. -Felirc-
fuzzyrabbitstrikesback 02-20-07, 03:19 PM	Now maybe I'm just forgetting something very important here, but why would Beguilers be useless against Constructs? I admit I'm a bit rusty regarding Constructs (haven't played for a while, and our campaigns feature few constructs). While I'm sure most Enchantment spells might fail, what about Illusion? The key thing to remember about the Beguiler is that Illusions are godly. Use illusions as distractions, to set up an ambush, or to lure it off a cliff. The possibilities are (seemingly) endless. Like I said, I could be wrong. I know for a fact, however, that illusions are godly against undead, especially unintelligent ones. Gotta love how they'll never become suspicious about why the walls of a room are suddenly 20 feet closer together :D
teshen 02-20-07, 03:48 PM	Now maybe I'm just forgetting something very important here, but why would Beguilers be useless against Constructs? I think it is because, as mindless, they are immune to many illusion and enchantment effects, just like undead.
Nephlite 02-20-07, 04:45 PM	I think it is because, as mindless, they are immune to many illusion and enchantment effects, just like undead. That is a misconception. Mindless makes you immune to illusion spells that effect the mind not exist. I create an illusionary monster: the unintelligent undead have no reason to doubt it (they are dumb). Golem are just as dumb. Intelligent undead are not as dumb sadly.
FrostHammer 02-20-07, 07:18 PM	I forgot, do contructs and golems have high will saves?
MerlintheTuna 02-20-07, 08:25 PM	Illusions work just dandy on undead. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html) Also, constructs have no good saves. They're pretty easy to deal with as long as you have a few spells that don't allow SR. Like, for example... Grease. Golems are made out to be mage-killers, but they don't really follow through in that respect. If anything, it just sucks to be a Rogue.
MerlintheTuna 02-20-07, 08:26 PM	I would think that it woudln't be all that usefull. A jack of all trades isn't what a beguiler is, he's highly specialized, bothering with those kinds of spells kinda muddies him down.Think of it as being to spontaneously cast an entire school of spells. It's a nice perk to have, to the point of "If you're a spontaneous caster and don't take this, you're pretty much an idiot."