Beguiler: A bit much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguiler: A bit much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dachannien
04-08-07, 09:14 PM Hi, all,

A player who is joining the campaign I'm DMing owns Player's Handbook II and has asked to play a Beguiler. On looking over the class, I've noticed something that causes me great concern, and I wanted to ask the community whether my logic is valid or if there's something I'm missing that prevents this class from being unbalanced.

The way I approach the Beguiler is as a cross between a Rogue and a Sorcerer. If we start with the Sorcerer and start giving things up to permit the class to get rogue abilities, eventually we should arrive at the Beguiler. The Beguiler gives up access to many of the spells that Sorcerers can choose to learn, and gains light armor (with bards' 0% spell failure), d6 hit die, a good class skill list, good skill points, and rogue trap searching/disabling.

However, in the process, the beguiler also gains the ability to cast spontaneously from a much larger spell list than the Sorcerer gets to. In fact, none of the original PHB1 classes gets to cast spontaneously from a spell list even half the size of the Beguiler's. (On top of this, the Beguiler gets some special class abilities, including an ability at level 20 to bypass SR entirely in certain situations.)

This doesn't seem right to me. The Sorcerer known spells numbers at level 20 are 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, while the Beguiler's numbers are equivalent to 7/14/19/20/11/11/8/8/7/6. The spells per day numbers are essentially the same, with the Sorcerer getting one more level 9 spell per day at level 20.

There are two ways I've thought of to remedy this situation, assuming that I'm right and it's out of whack in the first place. One, apply a spell selection rule a la bards and sorcerers that limits the number of spells the Beguiler can know, but leave the Beguiler spell list as is. Or two, change the spell list so that it only includes enchantment and illusion spells (as written, only about half of the spells are from those two schools), and allow the Beguiler to cast spontaneously from that list, which would be much closer to the Sorcerer known spells numbers.

What do you folks think? Did I smoke some bad granola, or is the Beguiler class overpowered?
highbulp
04-08-07, 09:21 PM Well I believe the sorcerer is generally considered to be underpowered, so the argument "it's better than a sorcerer" may not hold much water.

But you're also missing a big part: choice. The sorcerer has the option to learn some awesome spells that the beguiler just can't get, everything from Summon spells to Polymorph to direct damage blasts. And even if the sorcerer doesn't have the spell known, he can still use wands and scrolls that contain that spell. The beguiler has no such option. He has one single shtick. Yeah, he can do that better than than the sorcerer, but that's all he can do.

In short, no, the beguiler isn't overpowered. It's just designed better than the sorcerer.
ThePope
04-08-07, 09:23 PM except that there are two things that differentiate the beguiler list from the sorceror...

1 the beguiler list is very very focused, there's tons of incredibly useful spells out there that a beguiler has no chance at.

2 the beguiler has lots of spells that while at some point in time they might find a use, the fact is that 95% of the time they might as well not be on the list.... what i'm saying is there's a lotta fluff spells that really you could skip when comparing the amount of known spells based on the impact they'll have on most games.

i mean, look at the warmage, same idea, tons of known spells... but a ton of overlap and fluff stuff that has a very good chance of never being cast.
Qooroo
04-08-07, 09:23 PM Nah, the Beguiler class isn't overpowered. It's a good strong class for sure. It can function in the same role as a Rogue very nicely, and can get some good use out of its spells. But it's not broken in comparison to the Sorceror. It may know more spells, but the nature of the spell list is that it lacks the huge dicersity of the Sorceror. It doesn't have the same potential for wand/staff use as a sorceror (even if a Sorceror doesn't know a spell, they can still get access to it). The spells of Beguiler can be strong, but they're also largely useless against monsters immune to mind-affecting spells. Ultimately they gain the ability to be a bit of a skill-monkey/serve as trapfinders, but they give up a lot of diversity. They serve a very specific role, but they gain some neat things because of it.

So, ultimately, they're good, but if anything they're weaker than a wizard/sorceror.
MareltEkiran
04-08-07, 09:29 PM Beguilers are fine as it is...

In practise, they aren't all that deadly. Anything with a low will save is toast against them. But a wizard or sorcerer with a few mind-based spells known can do exactly the same.

Against anything not subject to mind spells or a decently high will save (which is most of the more powerful classes, as well as the more difficult monsters), the beguiler is next to useless. They gave them a few defensive and utility spells, in order to at least be able to do something in such situations.
A caster with one good Fortitude save spell, one good Reflex save spell and one good Will save spell is far deadlier than a caster with 20 good Will save spells. A sorcerer really only needs one attack spell of each type every few levels and can then use metamagic (with the alternate variant from PHB2 or the Rapid Metamagic feat, metamagic is no longer a problem for a sorcerer) to boost them as desired. A wizard knows as many spells as they need and with the easy-resting spells and abilities, it's not that much of an issue for them to prepare new ones.

The ability to wear light armour is pretty much a moot point these days, with the introduction of mithril twilight chain shirt (or just have Greater Mage Armour running the whole day). The difference between a d4 and d6 is only 20 HP over the course of your 20 levels of career. Not insignificant, but not an unbalancing factor.

The skills allow the beguiler to take the niche of a rogue, which is what they should do. Their special abilities are nice, but you'd be surprised how hard it is to actually catch an opponent flat-footed, once you enter the levels where every single mage knows See Invisibility and every creature has either Blindsight or True Seeing.
In other words, think of them as rogues without sneak attack and some magical tricks up their sleeve.

So overall, the Beguiler is definitely better than a non-spellcasting rogue, but on the weakish end when compared to the other full spellcasters.
Dachannien
04-08-07, 09:45 PM A sorcerer really only needs one attack spell of each type every few levels and can then use metamagic (with the alternate variant from PHB2 or the Rapid Metamagic feat, metamagic is no longer a problem for a sorcerer) to boost them as desired. A wizard knows as many spells as they need and with the easy-resting spells and abilities, it's not that much of an issue for them to prepare new ones.

The ability to wear light armour is pretty much a moot point these days, with the introduction of mithril twilight chain shirt (or just have Greater Mage Armour running the whole day).

Note that for the most part, we are playing a core book campaign. The campaign started as 3.0 edition and only recently moved to 3.5 edition, since we play online now instead of face-to-face and we can make easy reference of the SRD. The fancy extra stuff you mentioned above doesn't apply to us. :D

However, one thing you mentioned indicates one of the other annoyances I have with the Beguiler. They give the class nifty abilities like wearing light armor with no spell failure, but then they give the class Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor as well. They give the Beguiler rogue-ish class skills like Open Lock, Search, Hide, and Move Silently, but then they also give them spells like Knock, Detect Secret Doors, the various Invisibility spells, etc. While the spells and skills aren't identical in usage, they do have a lot of overlap, which really doesn't make sense to me.
AllisterH
04-08-07, 09:53 PM Yeah, the consensus is the dread necromancer (the necromancer version), the warmage (the blaster/evocation version and the beguiler are all well designed but generally speaking, definitely weaker than the sorceror.

Take for example, the 6th level for your beguiler player.

He gets to choose greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, mislead, overwhelm, repulsion, shadow walk, true seeing and veil.

No Globe. No Summoning, No Antimagic Field? Hell, look at what he does get. He finally gets access to movement with the subpar Shadow Walk, two effects which basically are scaled up versions of lower level spells?

Honestly, give a CO board expert access to the Spell Compendium or hell, just the PHB II & PHB and I'm betcha the sorceror created at any level will be more versatile and more powerful.
Crimson_Concerto
04-08-07, 09:59 PM Actually, the Beguiler is less powerful than the sorcerer.

Yes, yes, it doesn't seem that way at first, and was shocked the first time I saw it too... until I looked at its spell lsit. Now, look at the Beguilers spell list, and then look at the Sorcerer's spell list. Go on. Do it.

Now, tell me with a straight face that the Beguiler's spell list even BEGINS to compare. Can't do it, can you? THAT'S the reason the Sorcerer is still better.

The Sorcerer's spell options are much better than a Beguiler could ever hope for. Granted, a sorcerer who is focusing on enchantments and illusions will not be as good as a Beguiler, just as a sorcerer focusing only on necromancy or evocation will not be as good as the Dread Necromancer or Warmage respectively, but when the Sorcerer is actually played intelligently, things turn around.

See, a Sorcerer played with moderate intelligence will not waste spells known with two spells that accomplish the same thing. This sorcerer will have a much wider variety of options than the beguiler will, regardless of the fact that the Beguiler has more spells known, because they beguler's spells known all follow a similar theme and are made to accomplish similar things. The Beguiler spell list is redundant, while a moderately-intelligently played Sorcerer's spell list is not.

Now, of course, the Beguier does have the advantage of being able to make much more use of skills than a sorcerer, but it needs SOMETHING to allow it to keep up, no? See, the reason the Beguiler gets all that extra stuff is so that it can keep up in usefulness and survivability with the Sorcerer.

Sorcerers are just as powerful as Beguilers, probably more so, so don't worry. Everything is fine. :)
Dachannien
04-08-07, 10:13 PM Thanks all for the responses. I've taken your collective advice and taken a closer look at the Beguiler's spell list, and you may be right. :D I think we'll at least try it out and see how it goes, and if you're right, I won't feel the need to whip out the nerf bat later ;)
dragynson1
04-08-07, 10:24 PM I actually agree with the original poster, the beguiler is slightly overpowered BUT i think THE OP and most other posters are comparing the beguiler to the wrong class while sorcerer and beguiler share a lot in common the Beguiler shares as much if not more in common with the bard. While the sor and beg share 9th level spells, the bard and beguiler share hitdie/skills/armor/party roles

The beguiler seems to be basically a super powered magical bard.As opposed to song bard.
My suggestion is o go back and compare the beguiler 20 to a bard 20. We can assume bardic music 2 good saves and medium bab is considered powerful enough a trade to keep the bard to 6th level spell via the sublime chord prc. Hell you could even compare beguiler to a bard10/sublime chord10 with more accuracy.
That being said i do think the beguiler is more powerful due to mainly the huge spell access. not that i would ever play a bard , i would play a beguiler
Arcane Guyver
04-08-07, 10:43 PM My only problem with the Beguiler is that the spellcasting is Int-based. Charisma would make more sense IMO.
Crimson_Concerto
04-08-07, 11:16 PM My only problem with the Beguiler is that the spellcasting is Int-based. Charisma would make more sense IMO.

Yeah, I actually agree here. That's why in my games I house rules they use CHA to cast, the same way I rule that Warmages use INT to cast. Their flavor and mechanics just don't seeem to match up as-is.
turalisj
04-08-07, 11:39 PM Remember folks: a one-trick poney *looks at the overspecialised classes* is just that, one trick and nothing else.

That's my 1cp :P
Kintara
04-09-07, 12:01 AM The Beguiler isn't overpowered. In fact, all the classes should be so well-designed.

The nice thing about the Beguiler's spellcasting is that they get their entire spell list, which does allow them to not have to worry about burning spells known on spells they don't see being used very regularly (and they also get to add a few choice spells from other sources, which helps keep things interesting). Plus, you get a nice skill list and since your spellcasting is Int-based, which cuts down on the MAD. If you were planning on playing an Enchantment/Illusion based mage, then the Beguiler does it perfectly. Even their capstone ability to bypass SR is great. It's class design at its finest.

The ability of a Sorcerer to choose a better spell list isn't to be undervalued, but the Sorcerer also lacks the Beguiler's adroitness of design which might make it less fun.
eggplantm
04-09-07, 08:26 AM I've seen a beguiler played up to 13th level. They are a fine class that is a lot of fun. The non-violent spell list is their major restriction as well as their asset. The beguiller would throw around confusion and charms on her enemies which could be very hard to save against if she caught them flat footed but all of her spells were will save based. All or nothing. Also, if they were immune to mind affecting, they were basically immune to almost all of her spells. In those cases, she would fall back to buffing the rest of the group with spells like invisibility and haste. Out of combat, the class really, really shines. THey are the ultimate tricksters and manipulators and AND! they have lots of skill points and use magic device. Our beguiller carried around a staff of fire for the rare times when only brute force would do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dachannien 04-08-07, 09:14 PM	Hi, all, A player who is joining the campaign I'm DMing owns Player's Handbook II and has asked to play a Beguiler. On looking over the class, I've noticed something that causes me great concern, and I wanted to ask the community whether my logic is valid or if there's something I'm missing that prevents this class from being unbalanced. The way I approach the Beguiler is as a cross between a Rogue and a Sorcerer. If we start with the Sorcerer and start giving things up to permit the class to get rogue abilities, eventually we should arrive at the Beguiler. The Beguiler gives up access to many of the spells that Sorcerers can choose to learn, and gains light armor (with bards' 0% spell failure), d6 hit die, a good class skill list, good skill points, and rogue trap searching/disabling. However, in the process, the beguiler also gains the ability to cast spontaneously from a much larger spell list than the Sorcerer gets to. In fact, none of the original PHB1 classes gets to cast spontaneously from a spell list even half the size of the Beguiler's. (On top of this, the Beguiler gets some special class abilities, including an ability at level 20 to bypass SR entirely in certain situations.) This doesn't seem right to me. The Sorcerer known spells numbers at level 20 are 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, while the Beguiler's numbers are equivalent to 7/14/19/20/11/11/8/8/7/6. The spells per day numbers are essentially the same, with the Sorcerer getting one more level 9 spell per day at level 20. There are two ways I've thought of to remedy this situation, assuming that I'm right and it's out of whack in the first place. One, apply a spell selection rule a la bards and sorcerers that limits the number of spells the Beguiler can know, but leave the Beguiler spell list as is. Or two, change the spell list so that it only includes enchantment and illusion spells (as written, only about half of the spells are from those two schools), and allow the Beguiler to cast spontaneously from that list, which would be much closer to the Sorcerer known spells numbers. What do you folks think? Did I smoke some bad granola, or is the Beguiler class overpowered?
highbulp 04-08-07, 09:21 PM	Well I believe the sorcerer is generally considered to be underpowered, so the argument "it's better than a sorcerer" may not hold much water. But you're also missing a big part: choice. The sorcerer has the option to learn some awesome spells that the beguiler just can't get, everything from Summon spells to Polymorph to direct damage blasts. And even if the sorcerer doesn't have the spell known, he can still use wands and scrolls that contain that spell. The beguiler has no such option. He has one single shtick. Yeah, he can do that better than than the sorcerer, but that's all he can do. In short, no, the beguiler isn't overpowered. It's just designed better than the sorcerer.
ThePope 04-08-07, 09:23 PM	except that there are two things that differentiate the beguiler list from the sorceror... 1 the beguiler list is very very focused, there's tons of incredibly useful spells out there that a beguiler has no chance at. 2 the beguiler has lots of spells that while at some point in time they might find a use, the fact is that 95% of the time they might as well not be on the list.... what i'm saying is there's a lotta fluff spells that really you could skip when comparing the amount of known spells based on the impact they'll have on most games. i mean, look at the warmage, same idea, tons of known spells... but a ton of overlap and fluff stuff that has a very good chance of never being cast.
Qooroo 04-08-07, 09:23 PM	Nah, the Beguiler class isn't overpowered. It's a good strong class for sure. It can function in the same role as a Rogue very nicely, and can get some good use out of its spells. But it's not broken in comparison to the Sorceror. It may know more spells, but the nature of the spell list is that it lacks the huge dicersity of the Sorceror. It doesn't have the same potential for wand/staff use as a sorceror (even if a Sorceror doesn't know a spell, they can still get access to it). The spells of Beguiler can be strong, but they're also largely useless against monsters immune to mind-affecting spells. Ultimately they gain the ability to be a bit of a skill-monkey/serve as trapfinders, but they give up a lot of diversity. They serve a very specific role, but they gain some neat things because of it. So, ultimately, they're good, but if anything they're weaker than a wizard/sorceror.
MareltEkiran 04-08-07, 09:29 PM	Beguilers are fine as it is... In practise, they aren't all that deadly. Anything with a low will save is toast against them. But a wizard or sorcerer with a few mind-based spells known can do exactly the same. Against anything not subject to mind spells or a decently high will save (which is most of the more powerful classes, as well as the more difficult monsters), the beguiler is next to useless. They gave them a few defensive and utility spells, in order to at least be able to do something in such situations. A caster with one good Fortitude save spell, one good Reflex save spell and one good Will save spell is far deadlier than a caster with 20 good Will save spells. A sorcerer really only needs one attack spell of each type every few levels and can then use metamagic (with the alternate variant from PHB2 or the Rapid Metamagic feat, metamagic is no longer a problem for a sorcerer) to boost them as desired. A wizard knows as many spells as they need and with the easy-resting spells and abilities, it's not that much of an issue for them to prepare new ones. The ability to wear light armour is pretty much a moot point these days, with the introduction of mithril twilight chain shirt (or just have Greater Mage Armour running the whole day). The difference between a d4 and d6 is only 20 HP over the course of your 20 levels of career. Not insignificant, but not an unbalancing factor. The skills allow the beguiler to take the niche of a rogue, which is what they should do. Their special abilities are nice, but you'd be surprised how hard it is to actually catch an opponent flat-footed, once you enter the levels where every single mage knows See Invisibility and every creature has either Blindsight or True Seeing. In other words, think of them as rogues without sneak attack and some magical tricks up their sleeve. So overall, the Beguiler is definitely better than a non-spellcasting rogue, but on the weakish end when compared to the other full spellcasters.
Dachannien 04-08-07, 09:45 PM	A sorcerer really only needs one attack spell of each type every few levels and can then use metamagic (with the alternate variant from PHB2 or the Rapid Metamagic feat, metamagic is no longer a problem for a sorcerer) to boost them as desired. A wizard knows as many spells as they need and with the easy-resting spells and abilities, it's not that much of an issue for them to prepare new ones. The ability to wear light armour is pretty much a moot point these days, with the introduction of mithril twilight chain shirt (or just have Greater Mage Armour running the whole day). Note that for the most part, we are playing a core book campaign. The campaign started as 3.0 edition and only recently moved to 3.5 edition, since we play online now instead of face-to-face and we can make easy reference of the SRD. The fancy extra stuff you mentioned above doesn't apply to us. :D However, one thing you mentioned indicates one of the other annoyances I have with the Beguiler. They give the class nifty abilities like wearing light armor with no spell failure, but then they give the class Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor as well. They give the Beguiler rogue-ish class skills like Open Lock, Search, Hide, and Move Silently, but then they also give them spells like Knock, Detect Secret Doors, the various Invisibility spells, etc. While the spells and skills aren't identical in usage, they do have a lot of overlap, which really doesn't make sense to me.
AllisterH 04-08-07, 09:53 PM	Yeah, the consensus is the dread necromancer (the necromancer version), the warmage (the blaster/evocation version and the beguiler are all well designed but generally speaking, definitely weaker than the sorceror. Take for example, the 6th level for your beguiler player. He gets to choose greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, mislead, overwhelm, repulsion, shadow walk, true seeing and veil. No Globe. No Summoning, No Antimagic Field? Hell, look at what he does get. He finally gets access to movement with the subpar Shadow Walk, two effects which basically are scaled up versions of lower level spells? Honestly, give a CO board expert access to the Spell Compendium or hell, just the PHB II & PHB and I'm betcha the sorceror created at any level will be more versatile and more powerful.
Crimson_Concerto 04-08-07, 09:59 PM	Actually, the Beguiler is less powerful than the sorcerer. Yes, yes, it doesn't seem that way at first, and was shocked the first time I saw it too... until I looked at its spell lsit. Now, look at the Beguilers spell list, and then look at the Sorcerer's spell list. Go on. Do it. Now, tell me with a straight face that the Beguiler's spell list even BEGINS to compare. Can't do it, can you? THAT'S the reason the Sorcerer is still better. The Sorcerer's spell options are much better than a Beguiler could ever hope for. Granted, a sorcerer who is focusing on enchantments and illusions will not be as good as a Beguiler, just as a sorcerer focusing only on necromancy or evocation will not be as good as the Dread Necromancer or Warmage respectively, but when the Sorcerer is actually played intelligently, things turn around. See, a Sorcerer played with moderate intelligence will not waste spells known with two spells that accomplish the same thing. This sorcerer will have a much wider variety of options than the beguiler will, regardless of the fact that the Beguiler has more spells known, because they beguler's spells known all follow a similar theme and are made to accomplish similar things. The Beguiler spell list is redundant, while a moderately-intelligently played Sorcerer's spell list is not. Now, of course, the Beguier does have the advantage of being able to make much more use of skills than a sorcerer, but it needs SOMETHING to allow it to keep up, no? See, the reason the Beguiler gets all that extra stuff is so that it can keep up in usefulness and survivability with the Sorcerer. Sorcerers are just as powerful as Beguilers, probably more so, so don't worry. Everything is fine. :)
Dachannien 04-08-07, 10:13 PM	Thanks all for the responses. I've taken your collective advice and taken a closer look at the Beguiler's spell list, and you may be right. :D I think we'll at least try it out and see how it goes, and if you're right, I won't feel the need to whip out the nerf bat later ;)
dragynson1 04-08-07, 10:24 PM	I actually agree with the original poster, the beguiler is slightly overpowered BUT i think THE OP and most other posters are comparing the beguiler to the wrong class while sorcerer and beguiler share a lot in common the Beguiler shares as much if not more in common with the bard. While the sor and beg share 9th level spells, the bard and beguiler share hitdie/skills/armor/party roles The beguiler seems to be basically a super powered magical bard.As opposed to song bard. My suggestion is o go back and compare the beguiler 20 to a bard 20. We can assume bardic music 2 good saves and medium bab is considered powerful enough a trade to keep the bard to 6th level spell via the sublime chord prc. Hell you could even compare beguiler to a bard10/sublime chord10 with more accuracy. That being said i do think the beguiler is more powerful due to mainly the huge spell access. not that i would ever play a bard , i would play a beguiler
Arcane Guyver 04-08-07, 10:43 PM	My only problem with the Beguiler is that the spellcasting is Int-based. Charisma would make more sense IMO.
Crimson_Concerto 04-08-07, 11:16 PM	My only problem with the Beguiler is that the spellcasting is Int-based. Charisma would make more sense IMO. Yeah, I actually agree here. That's why in my games I house rules they use CHA to cast, the same way I rule that Warmages use INT to cast. Their flavor and mechanics just don't seeem to match up as-is.
turalisj 04-08-07, 11:39 PM	Remember folks: a one-trick poney looks at the overspecialised classes is just that, one trick and nothing else. That's my 1cp :P
Kintara 04-09-07, 12:01 AM	The Beguiler isn't overpowered. In fact, all the classes should be so well-designed. The nice thing about the Beguiler's spellcasting is that they get their entire spell list, which does allow them to not have to worry about burning spells known on spells they don't see being used very regularly (and they also get to add a few choice spells from other sources, which helps keep things interesting). Plus, you get a nice skill list and since your spellcasting is Int-based, which cuts down on the MAD. If you were planning on playing an Enchantment/Illusion based mage, then the Beguiler does it perfectly. Even their capstone ability to bypass SR is great. It's class design at its finest. The ability of a Sorcerer to choose a better spell list isn't to be undervalued, but the Sorcerer also lacks the Beguiler's adroitness of design which might make it less fun.
eggplantm 04-09-07, 08:26 AM	I've seen a beguiler played up to 13th level. They are a fine class that is a lot of fun. The non-violent spell list is their major restriction as well as their asset. The beguiller would throw around confusion and charms on her enemies which could be very hard to save against if she caught them flat footed but all of her spells were will save based. All or nothing. Also, if they were immune to mind affecting, they were basically immune to almost all of her spells. In those cases, she would fall back to buffing the rest of the group with spells like invisibility and haste. Out of combat, the class really, really shines. THey are the ultimate tricksters and manipulators and AND! they have lots of skill points and use magic device. Our beguiller carried around a staff of fire for the rare times when only brute force would do.