beguiler/warmage vs. sorcerer questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

beguiler/warmage vs. sorcerer questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
technochris81
06-20-06, 03:32 AM 1. why does a (1st level) Beguiler/Warmage get 14/13 1st level spells known while a (1st level) Sorcerer gets 2?

2. would it be fair to just give Sorcerers d6 hit die, several more spells known, and bonus feats at 5/10/15/20?

- if you answered yes to question 2, how many more spells known is in order? can we just double (or even triple) the Sorcerer's spells known?

-chris
Witch
06-20-06, 03:41 AM Sorcerers get to -choose- which spells known. That would imply choice, and more choices generally equals more power.

That said, giving them a d6 HD and those bonus feats (only Heritage or Metamagic feats) wouldn't be a problem.
technochris81
06-20-06, 04:25 AM Sorcerers get to -choose- which spells known. That would imply choice, and more choices generally equals more power.

it doesn't matter what 2 spells you choose. 14 is always better than 2. some spells are definitely better than others, but i would rather have 14 crappy ones than 2 amazing ones.
Witch
06-20-06, 04:29 AM The issue with the new type of casters is that they aren't very versatile. Sorcerers can be - they can pick spells that can be handy for every situation. The new casters, while having a large list, have a very thematic spell list. You won't suddenly see Scorching Ray on the Beguilers spell list, for example.
runestar
06-20-06, 04:31 AM Play it your way then. ;) You will find that at low lvs, blasting is generally sub-optimal when you lack the caster lv to power it, and area-affect spells like sleep/colour spray are generally more efficient.

Perhaps they appear to have the advantage at lower lvs, but wait till you reach mid lvs.
belthazzar1113
06-20-06, 06:04 AM one of the nice thing sorcs can do that beguilers and warmages can't do is research and add origonal spells to their list. or add new spells from new publications. since warmage and beguiler will probly never see an update in a wotc book but sorc/wizard gets new spells almost every tome that comes out you can always play more interesting sorcs if you customize them to the game.

is you dm big on using incarnum? then crack the book and there are four or five spells specifically dealing with it for the sorc. Your dm using binders as bad guys? crack the ToM and there are half a dozen anti binder spells to grab.

as far as fixing the sorc i usally just let people play battle sorcs and choose to either lose the spell known or lose a step of HD. works out pretty well and gives sorcs a more hearty taste.
Vaelan
06-20-06, 07:08 AM one of the nice thing sorcs can do that beguilers and warmages can't do is research and add origonal spells to their list.
There are no rules that prohibit these classes from researching new spells. The DMG says the following on page 198...

A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell.

The only reasonable restriction would be that new spells cannot vary greatly from their theme.
WayneTheGame
06-20-06, 07:09 AM Answer is simple: Because WotC evidently realized that they screwed the Sorcerer by giving them NOTHING based on the false assumption that spontaneously casting spells was so supremely powerful that any other bonuses would make the Sorcerer unbalanced. In our campaign, the DM houseruled that Wizards don't lose spells when memorized and Sorcerers gain bonus metamagic feats exactly like a Wizard does. They can also swap spells out at every level instead of every 4th or whatever that ridiculousness is (why would anyone play a Sorcerer, I bet you're asking? Because they get more spells per day than the Wizard).

What I would do to the sorc is this:

Hit Die: d6
Bonus Feat @ 1st level: Eschew Materials, Heritage (Must choose e.g. Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, etc.)

Give them metamagic feats like a wizard (minus two or three), allow their CHA to give bonus spells KNOWN, maybe somewhere in there throw in additional Heritage feats based on what they picked at 1st level (replacing the 2-3 Metamagic bonus feats they don't get).
Bahriel
06-20-06, 07:21 AM In the campaing i play in every week, and the campaign i run loosely, we use the Mage, which is a crossbreed between the wizard and sorceror

he gains spells known as a sorceror, except on even levels where he gets 1 spell known in his highest level,

He has a spellbook, from which he memorizes his daily spells known (Ie a level 1 mage would be allowed to memorize 4 lvl 0 and 2 lvl 1 spells for that day, from his spellbook)

Difference is he's free to use the prepared spells in any order, he doens't prepare "2 burning hands" but prepares burning hands and something else, and then just uses them as he sees fit within the limits of the spells per day.

the amge also gains the metamagic/item creation feats of a wizard.
Otto the Bugbear
06-20-06, 07:37 AM In the campaing i play in every week, and the campaign i run loosely, we use the Mage, which is a crossbreed between the wizard and sorceror

he gains spells known as a sorceror, except on even levels where he gets 1 spell known in his highest level,

He has a spellbook, from which he memorizes his daily spells known (Ie a level 1 mage would be allowed to memorize 4 lvl 0 and 2 lvl 1 spells for that day, from his spellbook)

Difference is he's free to use the prepared spells in any order, he doens't prepare "2 burning hands" but prepares burning hands and something else, and then just uses them as he sees fit within the limits of the spells per day.

the mage also gains the metamagic/item creation feats of a wizard.

You, my friend, just made it to the status of honorary bugbear.

For those interested, The Mage can be found in my sig. I should say, the way you describe the mage is the same as my very own.

Here, have some :cookie: or :pint: , whatever floats your boat.

Cheers

Otto :)
Ivellious Galanodel
06-20-06, 08:40 AM Two problems with your build here...one is that to play a beguiler/warmage, you have to have two good ability scores...Int and Cha, instead of just one for the sorceror. The second problem is your initial comparison...a 1st level beguiler/warmage is actually equal to a 2nd level sorceror (not a 1st level) and the spell progression of moving up both classes vs increasing levels in only one class will have a dramatic effect on the power of those spells and who gets to access higher level spells sooner (the sorceror of course does). There just isn't a better replacement to the sorceror from any of the new books, just characters with different flavors to them. I do agree with you that the sorceror is not as powerful as it should be, as I feel inclined to pick wizard over it every time. Perhaps they will fix it someday.
WayneTheGame
06-20-06, 08:54 AM I don't think he meant a multiclass Beguiler/Warmage as a build, I think he was just asking why the two of those classes get [14] spells known at 1st level and a Sorcerer only gets 2.
technochris81
06-20-06, 03:08 PM I don't think he meant a multiclass Beguiler/Warmage as a build, I think he was just asking why the two of those classes get [14] spells known at 1st level and a Sorcerer only gets 2.

yeah, i didn't mean multiclass
ninjarabbit
06-20-06, 04:20 PM The issue with the new type of casters is that they aren't very versatile. Sorcerers can be - they can pick spells that can be handy for every situation. The new casters, while having a large list, have a very thematic spell list. You won't suddenly see Scorching Ray on the Beguilers spell list, for example.

That's pretty much the answer.

Basically a warmage has a bunch of different hammers, a beguiler has a bunch of different screwdrivers, and a sorcerer has a hammer, 2 screwdrivers (flathead and phillips), a wrench, and a few other tools.
Milo HoBo
06-20-06, 07:03 PM That's pretty much the answer.

Basically a warmage has a bunch of different hammers, a beguiler has a bunch of different screwdrivers, and a sorcerer has a hammer, 2 screwdrivers (flathead and phillips), a wrench, and a few other tools.

If said sorcerer so chooses (he'd be dumb not to).

The socerer, however, does need help, in the same way that all the core classes need help (and then some). He needs a reason to NOT take a prestige class. WotC has started to curve the PrC trend by introducing classes that actually have neat abilities worth sticking around for.
technochris81
06-21-06, 04:28 PM forgive the :bump:
AsimovValentin
06-21-06, 08:02 PM What was the bump for? The discussion was over. Just because you've got 14 different ways to deal damage doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than a guy that can say, cast orb of acid and say...color spray.
technochris81
06-22-06, 01:10 AM What was the bump for? The discussion was over. Just because you've got 14 different ways to deal damage doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than a guy that can say, cast orb of acid and say...color spray.

i just wanted some more feedback.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technochris81 06-20-06, 03:32 AM	1. why does a (1st level) Beguiler/Warmage get 14/13 1st level spells known while a (1st level) Sorcerer gets 2? 2. would it be fair to just give Sorcerers d6 hit die, several more spells known, and bonus feats at 5/10/15/20? - if you answered yes to question 2, how many more spells known is in order? can we just double (or even triple) the Sorcerer's spells known? -chris
Witch 06-20-06, 03:41 AM	Sorcerers get to -choose- which spells known. That would imply choice, and more choices generally equals more power. That said, giving them a d6 HD and those bonus feats (only Heritage or Metamagic feats) wouldn't be a problem.
technochris81 06-20-06, 04:25 AM	Sorcerers get to -choose- which spells known. That would imply choice, and more choices generally equals more power. it doesn't matter what 2 spells you choose. 14 is always better than 2. some spells are definitely better than others, but i would rather have 14 crappy ones than 2 amazing ones.
Witch 06-20-06, 04:29 AM	The issue with the new type of casters is that they aren't very versatile. Sorcerers can be - they can pick spells that can be handy for every situation. The new casters, while having a large list, have a very thematic spell list. You won't suddenly see Scorching Ray on the Beguilers spell list, for example.
runestar 06-20-06, 04:31 AM	Play it your way then. ;) You will find that at low lvs, blasting is generally sub-optimal when you lack the caster lv to power it, and area-affect spells like sleep/colour spray are generally more efficient. Perhaps they appear to have the advantage at lower lvs, but wait till you reach mid lvs.
belthazzar1113 06-20-06, 06:04 AM	one of the nice thing sorcs can do that beguilers and warmages can't do is research and add origonal spells to their list. or add new spells from new publications. since warmage and beguiler will probly never see an update in a wotc book but sorc/wizard gets new spells almost every tome that comes out you can always play more interesting sorcs if you customize them to the game. is you dm big on using incarnum? then crack the book and there are four or five spells specifically dealing with it for the sorc. Your dm using binders as bad guys? crack the ToM and there are half a dozen anti binder spells to grab. as far as fixing the sorc i usally just let people play battle sorcs and choose to either lose the spell known or lose a step of HD. works out pretty well and gives sorcs a more hearty taste.
Vaelan 06-20-06, 07:08 AM	one of the nice thing sorcs can do that beguilers and warmages can't do is research and add origonal spells to their list. There are no rules that prohibit these classes from researching new spells. The DMG says the following on page 198... A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell. The only reasonable restriction would be that new spells cannot vary greatly from their theme.
WayneTheGame 06-20-06, 07:09 AM	Answer is simple: Because WotC evidently realized that they screwed the Sorcerer by giving them NOTHING based on the false assumption that spontaneously casting spells was so supremely powerful that any other bonuses would make the Sorcerer unbalanced. In our campaign, the DM houseruled that Wizards don't lose spells when memorized and Sorcerers gain bonus metamagic feats exactly like a Wizard does. They can also swap spells out at every level instead of every 4th or whatever that ridiculousness is (why would anyone play a Sorcerer, I bet you're asking? Because they get more spells per day than the Wizard). What I would do to the sorc is this: Hit Die: d6 Bonus Feat @ 1st level: Eschew Materials, Heritage (Must choose e.g. Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, etc.) Give them metamagic feats like a wizard (minus two or three), allow their CHA to give bonus spells KNOWN, maybe somewhere in there throw in additional Heritage feats based on what they picked at 1st level (replacing the 2-3 Metamagic bonus feats they don't get).
Bahriel 06-20-06, 07:21 AM	In the campaing i play in every week, and the campaign i run loosely, we use the Mage, which is a crossbreed between the wizard and sorceror he gains spells known as a sorceror, except on even levels where he gets 1 spell known in his highest level, He has a spellbook, from which he memorizes his daily spells known (Ie a level 1 mage would be allowed to memorize 4 lvl 0 and 2 lvl 1 spells for that day, from his spellbook) Difference is he's free to use the prepared spells in any order, he doens't prepare "2 burning hands" but prepares burning hands and something else, and then just uses them as he sees fit within the limits of the spells per day. the amge also gains the metamagic/item creation feats of a wizard.
Otto the Bugbear 06-20-06, 07:37 AM	In the campaing i play in every week, and the campaign i run loosely, we use the Mage, which is a crossbreed between the wizard and sorceror he gains spells known as a sorceror, except on even levels where he gets 1 spell known in his highest level, He has a spellbook, from which he memorizes his daily spells known (Ie a level 1 mage would be allowed to memorize 4 lvl 0 and 2 lvl 1 spells for that day, from his spellbook) Difference is he's free to use the prepared spells in any order, he doens't prepare "2 burning hands" but prepares burning hands and something else, and then just uses them as he sees fit within the limits of the spells per day. the mage also gains the metamagic/item creation feats of a wizard. You, my friend, just made it to the status of honorary bugbear. For those interested, The Mage can be found in my sig. I should say, the way you describe the mage is the same as my very own. Here, have some :cookie: or :pint: , whatever floats your boat. Cheers Otto :)
Ivellious Galanodel 06-20-06, 08:40 AM	Two problems with your build here...one is that to play a beguiler/warmage, you have to have two good ability scores...Int and Cha, instead of just one for the sorceror. The second problem is your initial comparison...a 1st level beguiler/warmage is actually equal to a 2nd level sorceror (not a 1st level) and the spell progression of moving up both classes vs increasing levels in only one class will have a dramatic effect on the power of those spells and who gets to access higher level spells sooner (the sorceror of course does). There just isn't a better replacement to the sorceror from any of the new books, just characters with different flavors to them. I do agree with you that the sorceror is not as powerful as it should be, as I feel inclined to pick wizard over it every time. Perhaps they will fix it someday.
WayneTheGame 06-20-06, 08:54 AM	I don't think he meant a multiclass Beguiler/Warmage as a build, I think he was just asking why the two of those classes get [14] spells known at 1st level and a Sorcerer only gets 2.
technochris81 06-20-06, 03:08 PM	I don't think he meant a multiclass Beguiler/Warmage as a build, I think he was just asking why the two of those classes get [14] spells known at 1st level and a Sorcerer only gets 2. yeah, i didn't mean multiclass
ninjarabbit 06-20-06, 04:20 PM	The issue with the new type of casters is that they aren't very versatile. Sorcerers can be - they can pick spells that can be handy for every situation. The new casters, while having a large list, have a very thematic spell list. You won't suddenly see Scorching Ray on the Beguilers spell list, for example. That's pretty much the answer. Basically a warmage has a bunch of different hammers, a beguiler has a bunch of different screwdrivers, and a sorcerer has a hammer, 2 screwdrivers (flathead and phillips), a wrench, and a few other tools.
Milo HoBo 06-20-06, 07:03 PM	That's pretty much the answer. Basically a warmage has a bunch of different hammers, a beguiler has a bunch of different screwdrivers, and a sorcerer has a hammer, 2 screwdrivers (flathead and phillips), a wrench, and a few other tools. If said sorcerer so chooses (he'd be dumb not to). The socerer, however, does need help, in the same way that all the core classes need help (and then some). He needs a reason to NOT take a prestige class. WotC has started to curve the PrC trend by introducing classes that actually have neat abilities worth sticking around for.
technochris81 06-21-06, 04:28 PM	forgive the :bump:
AsimovValentin 06-21-06, 08:02 PM	What was the bump for? The discussion was over. Just because you've got 14 different ways to deal damage doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than a guy that can say, cast orb of acid and say...color spray.
technochris81 06-22-06, 01:10 AM	What was the bump for? The discussion was over. Just because you've got 14 different ways to deal damage doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than a guy that can say, cast orb of acid and say...color spray. i just wanted some more feedback.