Beguilers and balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguilers and balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tombowings
06-04-07, 07:58 PM I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party.

For the campaign I'm looking at, the level is going to be around three; please take that into acount when providing feedback.
tahngarth40
06-04-07, 08:06 PM I've found the one in the game I'm playing in to be a nice change of pace from having a rogue (we don't have many players so everyone kind of has to fill an "archetype" slot)

They are fine as a skill monkey and useful in combat in our game (of course we've only been playing so far from lvl 2-4) and has dominated a few combats via color spray.
tombowings
06-04-07, 08:07 PM Thats around what we play as well.
teshen
06-04-07, 08:14 PM It's fine... even with a party with a beguiler, a sorcerer, and a rogue, you'll overlap some, but leave room for the others to do their own thing... and it helps to have some reduncencies... In a recent game, the party beguiler and the rogue were using the aid another action to find traps and were checking each other's work a lot.

Now a (illumian) specialist wizard x/beguiler 1/ultimate magus 10 would put the sorcerer out of business... :D
glacialcat
06-04-07, 08:21 PM Well the Beguiler class does have Balance as a skill...

So its gotta be more balanced than Wizards, Druids and Fighters...
windscar18
06-04-07, 08:53 PM The beguiler is obviously not going to be as powerful as wizard/druid/cleric. That said, beguilers are perfectly reasonable as they have a reasonably useful spell list, high skill points, and some somewhat useful abilities (Surprise Casting needs to not be melee only though -_-).
tombowings
06-04-07, 11:00 PM Ok, I was worried they would be too powerful.
Crash169
06-05-07, 12:03 AM They make excellent support casters in combat and have the ability to dominate outside the battlefield as well.

It truly is a great class to play.
Lotus Crane
06-05-07, 01:48 AM I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party.
Out of curiosity, what is your distinction between "usefulness" and "power?" Wouldn't most people assume those are synonymous terms?
InkBlot
06-05-07, 02:15 AM They are synonymous, but they don't mean the same thing.

Usefulness is like breadth of things you can do and how reliably you can do them. Power is how well you can do them. A rogue is useful because she has a good chance of overcoming a skill-based challenge of an appropriate CR. A cleric is powerful because with by casting silence she can automatically roll an "I win" on her Move Silently check.
goawayugh
06-05-07, 08:37 AM The beguiler is obviously not going to be as powerful as wizard/druid/cleric.

You sure about that?
Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556).

Beguiler is my favorite base class ever. They have one more class skill than rogues and often more skill points (thanks to Int based casting). You can be the trap disarmer/skill monkey and give great support in combat. Use the variant rule in PHBII for the Warmage's Advanced Learning and you can get some really useful stuff.
foxtail
06-05-07, 09:11 AM I've played a beguiler, and though it's awesomely fun in social settings, one of the major drawbacks of the class becomes clear when you find yourself in combat with any creatures immune to mind-affecting spells. Since these spells make up the bulk of the beguiler's spell list, the class immediately gets relegated to a passive/support role in these situations.

On the other hand, you can buff up almost your entire spell list with only two feats (Spell Focus [enchantment] and [illusion]).
tombowings
06-05-07, 06:09 PM Well, what are some good low level feats?
Kalarus
06-05-07, 06:19 PM You might want to take a look here:

http://boards1.wizards.com:80/showthread.php?t=805782
Morwen
06-05-07, 06:36 PM I've played a beguiler, and though it's awesomely fun in social settings, one of the major drawbacks of the class becomes clear when you find yourself in combat with any creatures immune to mind-affecting spells. Since these spells make up the bulk of the beguiler's spell list, the class immediately gets relegated to a passive/support role in these situations.

One of the players in my current campaign is a Beguiler, and while the character was definitely doing his part of the job in the early levels, he's been lacking lately. As you say, the class is extremely limited.

The fix me and my player were able to agree on was using Wish scrolls to add spells of his choice to his spells known list. So far I've allowed the first Wish to add one spell per spell level.. I haven't yet decided if that's too powerful for one Wish though, so we'll see what I do about the second one :)
Thawmus
06-05-07, 07:00 PM I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party.

For the campaign I'm looking at, the level is going to be around three; please take that into acount when providing feedback.

I'm currently playing a Grey Elf Beguiler at level 5 (started at 3). So far, he's subtly dominated every encounter thus far. Either by blinding the opponent, putting minions to sleep.

The party barbarian killed another party member, and my character eventually avenged him when everyone wasn't looking. A quick sleep spell gave him a 5% chance to save against it, due to my ridiculously high DC (easy to accomplish with only two schools to specialize in), and then I performed a perfect coup-de-grace. The rest of the players (and, after the truth got out, their characters) have had utmost respect for him ever since, and haven't dared mess with him.

So, powerful? Maybe not. Versatile in spellcasting? No. But he's a much better skillmonkey than even the rogue, and his DC's can get amped up to a point where it's absolutely ridiculous, without feeling like you wasted any feats. I mean, the two metamagic feats you want the most with this class, you get for free. And he even has a class feature for getting higher DC's.
Thawmus
06-05-07, 07:01 PM One of the players in my current campaign is a Beguiler, and while the character was definitely doing his part of the job in the early levels, he's been lacking lately. As you say, the class is extremely limited.

The fix me and my player were able to agree on was using Wish scrolls to add spells of his choice to his spells known list. So far I've allowed the first Wish to add one spell per spell level.. I haven't yet decided if that's too powerful for one Wish though, so we'll see what I do about the second one :)

Well, what's he lacking? Damage spells?

Because you can fix that pretty quick by using his Advanced Learning on Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.
TheWhirlingDeathaxe
06-05-07, 07:11 PM I've seen two beguilers in action. The first was as a DM running Expidition to Castle Ravenloft. The player ended up being very frustrated with her choice of class because of all of the undead. Therein lies the beguilers greatest weakness. If the bad guys are non-living, you're stuck using your very limited selection of buff spells and then hiding. She definately shined in the area of trapfinding and door opening though.
The other is in the campaign I'm currenly a player in. Our party is pretty big at 6 players, but the beguiler still manages to shine. He's ended multiple encounters with his sleep spell and the subdual dammage spells (whelm). We have a rougue in the groupwho is very gung ho about his job as trapfinder and door opener, so his huge skill list has been somewhat subdued in this adventure so far.
The beguiler (IMO) is a fantastic class, and very well balanced. As a DM I allowed the beguiler to take the warmages substitution level from the PHB 2 allowing her to use her advanced learning on non-enchantment non-illusion spells, but treating that spell as a higher level spell. (i.e. fireball could be learned as a 4th level spell)
I did notice that the beguiler suffers a lull in power at around 6th level, but picks back up quickly around 10th-12th level. This was just with the build my player chose though and may not hold true for each beguiler.
Thawmus
06-05-07, 07:17 PM I've seen two beguilers in action. The first was as a DM running Expidition to Castle Ravenloft. The player ended up being very frustrated with her choice of class because of all of the undead. Therein lies the beguilers greatest weakness. If the bad guys are non-living, you're stuck using your very limited selection of buff spells and then hiding. She definately shined in the area of trapfinding and door opening though.
The other is in the campaign I'm currenly a player in. Our party is pretty big at 6 players, but the beguiler still manages to shine. He's ended multiple encounters with his sleep spell and the subdual dammage spells (whelm). We have a rougue in the groupwho is very gung ho about his job as trapfinder and door opener, so his huge skill list has been somewhat subdued in this adventure so far.
The beguiler (IMO) is a fantastic class, and very well balanced. As a DM I allowed the beguiler to take the warmages substitution level from the PHB 2 allowing her to use her advanced learning on non-enchantment non-illusion spells, but treating that spell as a higher level spell. (i.e. fireball could be learned as a 4th level spell)
I did notice that the beguiler suffers a lull in power at around 6th level, but picks back up quickly around 10th-12th level. This was just with the build my player chose though and may not hold true for each beguiler.

You would be better off taking a 1 level dip into a prestige class like Mindbender, keeping your spellcasting going as-is, but delaying your advanced learning a bit. This way, you can pick up Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and the greater versions later on.

With Shadow Evocation, they can cast Fireball, or any other evocation spell at 4th level or lower, but with your 5th level DCs (not to mention, since it's an illusion spell, and you should have spell focus for illusion spells by then, it's at a significantly high DC)
windscar18
06-05-07, 07:56 PM You sure about that?
Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556).

Beguiler is my favorite base class ever. They have one more class skill than rogues and often more skill points (thanks to Int based casting). You can be the trap disarmer/skill monkey and give great support in combat. Use the variant rule in PHBII for the Warmage's Advanced Learning and you can get some really useful stuff.

That's cheating :P . Besides, even the author admits that making it a wizard would probably be more powerful. Hell, even I can see that (FOCUSED SPECIALIST IN THE FACE!)
danielinthewolvesden
06-05-07, 10:40 PM I find them quite well balanced and if your party mage is a warmage, then the Bequiler is very useful.
foxtail
06-06-07, 08:25 AM I find them quite well balanced and if your party mage is a warmage, then the Bequiler is very useful.

Oh, I imagine a beguiler and a warmage would work excellently together. Between the two, you've got everything but utility spells covered, and the host of special abilities besides.

I've gotta get my party to try that.
Lawkeeper
06-06-07, 08:42 AM A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example.

As for the weakness of the beguiler when facing unliving foes, the rogue actually faces the same when you look on his sneak attack. Even worse since his SA absolutely does not work, while the beguiler can still buff himself and his colleagues up, and use illusions.
Lotus Crane
06-06-07, 11:48 AM A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example.
Not necessarily; bards can become Sublime Chords, while beguiler's can't. And Sublime Chords are arguably better primary spellcasters than even sorcerers.
Lawkeeper
06-06-07, 12:33 PM Not necessarily; bards can become Sublime Chords, while beguiler's can't. And Sublime Chords are arguably better primary spellcasters than even sorcerers.
Better spellcasters, yes. But beguilers get plentiful more skills, especially as their spellcasting being based on Intelligence. As rogue-replacements, they're better ; and they'll know more spells.
Brendan Candries
06-06-07, 12:59 PM You would be better off taking a 1 level dip into a prestige class like Mindbender, keeping your spellcasting going as-is, but delaying your advanced learning a bit. This way, you can pick up Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and the greater versions later on.

With Shadow Evocation, they can cast Fireball, or any other evocation spell at 4th level or lower, but with your 5th level DCs (not to mention, since it's an illusion spell, and you should have spell focus for illusion spells by then, it's at a significantly high DC)

aye, nice approach.

another very nice one-level dip is shadow adept (FRCS) at level 7.
goawayugh
06-06-07, 01:19 PM That's cheating :P . Besides, even the author admits that making it a wizard would probably be more powerful. Hell, even I can see that (FOCUSED SPECIALIST IN THE FACE!)

Cheating is a word I find VERY offensive. I DON'T CHEAT! I hate people who cheat in games. I make it a point of knowing all the rules to a game, so I can exploit them to my benefit, yet still play by the rules. It is not cheating if it is within the rules. Granted, it is ridiculously over powered, but still legal. Yes, Wizard may be a better start for the Shadowcraft Mage, but Beguiller is very good too.
windscar18
06-06-07, 01:23 PM Cheating is a word I find VERY offensive. I DON'T CHEAT! I hate people who cheat in games. I make it a point of knowing all the rules to a game, so I can exploit them to my benefit, yet still play by the rules. It is not cheating if it is within the rules. Granted, it is ridiculously over powered, but still legal. Yes, Wizard may be a better start for the Shadowcraft Mage, but Beguiller is very good too.

I was just joking as that uses a clearly non-beguiler approach to spellcasting :P.
goawayugh
06-06-07, 01:36 PM Yeah, I realized that after I already posted and saw the smiley. Didn't bother editing it though.
Lawkeeper
06-06-07, 03:15 PM Better spellcasters, yes. But beguilers get plentiful more skills, especially as their spellcasting being based on Intelligence. As rogue-replacements, they're better ; and they'll know more spells.
Just un update : Sublime chord doesn't ask that you have more than one level of bard - all that is asked is that you have the bardic music ability. So, beguiler9/bard1 will do the trick, with more spells/day and spells known than with pure bard.:cool:

And for an added benefit, 9th level of beguiler doesn't give anything more than a 3rd and a 4th level spells, so you can dip in a 1st level of any spellcasting PrC. Among examples that give +1 spellcasting level at first level : loremaster ; mindbender, fatespinner, bloodmagus (Complete Arcane) ; unseen seer (Complete Mage) ; or shadow adept as Brendan Candries says.
Thawmus
06-07-07, 10:28 AM A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example.

Completely agreed. I'm currently playing a Beguiler in a party of about 8 people, and I'm one of only two arcanists (Most of them don't understand spellcasting, and have gotten too frustrated with it). One of which is constantly dumping levels into Rogue rather than his spellcasting class.

So I have my hands full. And I'm going to HAVE to pick up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, along with the greater versions. We just don't have anyone else in the party that will be doing it at later levels, so I'm going to have to be picking up the slack.

On the other hand, there is a lot of synergy between me and the two rogues in the party. Our last encounter, I turned one of them invisible, and cast Distract Assailant for them after the first round, so that they could keep getting their SA dice. A Beguiler can make fellow rogues VERY powerful.

As for the weakness of the beguiler when facing unliving foes, the rogue actually faces the same when you look on his sneak attack. Even worse since his SA absolutely does not work, while the beguiler can still buff himself and his colleagues up, and use illusions.

Having gone up against a zombie horde once already, I can attest to this. However, once you pick up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, as I plan to do, you should be able to perform during undead encounters more often.
Mikura
06-08-07, 10:37 PM When I started playing as a kid in 1st edition I played Illusionists. I'm playing a Beguiler in my current campaign and it almost feels like old times, but I actually get to fight.

In the last session we were pinned down by a guy with a composite bow (who never seemed to miss!). Two of the four of us were down, and the other guy was using enemy corpses for cover. I was crouched out of sight behind a building, and sent a Minor Image of myself running across 25' opening to the next building. Since he thought I went one way, this allowed me to move around the other way and get behind him and hit him with my rapier, also relieving the guy behind the bodies. We had him killed the next round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tombowings 06-04-07, 07:58 PM	I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party. For the campaign I'm looking at, the level is going to be around three; please take that into acount when providing feedback.
tahngarth40 06-04-07, 08:06 PM	I've found the one in the game I'm playing in to be a nice change of pace from having a rogue (we don't have many players so everyone kind of has to fill an "archetype" slot) They are fine as a skill monkey and useful in combat in our game (of course we've only been playing so far from lvl 2-4) and has dominated a few combats via color spray.
tombowings 06-04-07, 08:07 PM	Thats around what we play as well.
teshen 06-04-07, 08:14 PM	It's fine... even with a party with a beguiler, a sorcerer, and a rogue, you'll overlap some, but leave room for the others to do their own thing... and it helps to have some reduncencies... In a recent game, the party beguiler and the rogue were using the aid another action to find traps and were checking each other's work a lot. Now a (illumian) specialist wizard x/beguiler 1/ultimate magus 10 would put the sorcerer out of business... :D
glacialcat 06-04-07, 08:21 PM	Well the Beguiler class does have Balance as a skill... So its gotta be more balanced than Wizards, Druids and Fighters...
windscar18 06-04-07, 08:53 PM	The beguiler is obviously not going to be as powerful as wizard/druid/cleric. That said, beguilers are perfectly reasonable as they have a reasonably useful spell list, high skill points, and some somewhat useful abilities (Surprise Casting needs to not be melee only though -_-).
tombowings 06-04-07, 11:00 PM	Ok, I was worried they would be too powerful.
Crash169 06-05-07, 12:03 AM	They make excellent support casters in combat and have the ability to dominate outside the battlefield as well. It truly is a great class to play.
Lotus Crane 06-05-07, 01:48 AM	I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party. Out of curiosity, what is your distinction between "usefulness" and "power?" Wouldn't most people assume those are synonymous terms?
InkBlot 06-05-07, 02:15 AM	They are synonymous, but they don't mean the same thing. Usefulness is like breadth of things you can do and how reliably you can do them. Power is how well you can do them. A rogue is useful because she has a good chance of overcoming a skill-based challenge of an appropriate CR. A cleric is powerful because with by casting silence she can automatically roll an "I win" on her Move Silently check.
goawayugh 06-05-07, 08:37 AM	The beguiler is obviously not going to be as powerful as wizard/druid/cleric. You sure about that? Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556). Beguiler is my favorite base class ever. They have one more class skill than rogues and often more skill points (thanks to Int based casting). You can be the trap disarmer/skill monkey and give great support in combat. Use the variant rule in PHBII for the Warmage's Advanced Learning and you can get some really useful stuff.
foxtail 06-05-07, 09:11 AM	I've played a beguiler, and though it's awesomely fun in social settings, one of the major drawbacks of the class becomes clear when you find yourself in combat with any creatures immune to mind-affecting spells. Since these spells make up the bulk of the beguiler's spell list, the class immediately gets relegated to a passive/support role in these situations. On the other hand, you can buff up almost your entire spell list with only two feats (Spell Focus [enchantment] and [illusion]).
tombowings 06-05-07, 06:09 PM	Well, what are some good low level feats?
Kalarus 06-05-07, 06:19 PM	You might want to take a look here: http://boards1.wizards.com:80/showthread.php?t=805782
Morwen 06-05-07, 06:36 PM	I've played a beguiler, and though it's awesomely fun in social settings, one of the major drawbacks of the class becomes clear when you find yourself in combat with any creatures immune to mind-affecting spells. Since these spells make up the bulk of the beguiler's spell list, the class immediately gets relegated to a passive/support role in these situations. One of the players in my current campaign is a Beguiler, and while the character was definitely doing his part of the job in the early levels, he's been lacking lately. As you say, the class is extremely limited. The fix me and my player were able to agree on was using Wish scrolls to add spells of his choice to his spells known list. So far I've allowed the first Wish to add one spell per spell level.. I haven't yet decided if that's too powerful for one Wish though, so we'll see what I do about the second one :)
Thawmus 06-05-07, 07:00 PM	I like the look of the class, but I am wondering about balance and how useful (not powerful) they would be in a party. For the campaign I'm looking at, the level is going to be around three; please take that into acount when providing feedback. I'm currently playing a Grey Elf Beguiler at level 5 (started at 3). So far, he's subtly dominated every encounter thus far. Either by blinding the opponent, putting minions to sleep. The party barbarian killed another party member, and my character eventually avenged him when everyone wasn't looking. A quick sleep spell gave him a 5% chance to save against it, due to my ridiculously high DC (easy to accomplish with only two schools to specialize in), and then I performed a perfect coup-de-grace. The rest of the players (and, after the truth got out, their characters) have had utmost respect for him ever since, and haven't dared mess with him. So, powerful? Maybe not. Versatile in spellcasting? No. But he's a much better skillmonkey than even the rogue, and his DC's can get amped up to a point where it's absolutely ridiculous, without feeling like you wasted any feats. I mean, the two metamagic feats you want the most with this class, you get for free. And he even has a class feature for getting higher DC's.
Thawmus 06-05-07, 07:01 PM	One of the players in my current campaign is a Beguiler, and while the character was definitely doing his part of the job in the early levels, he's been lacking lately. As you say, the class is extremely limited. The fix me and my player were able to agree on was using Wish scrolls to add spells of his choice to his spells known list. So far I've allowed the first Wish to add one spell per spell level.. I haven't yet decided if that's too powerful for one Wish though, so we'll see what I do about the second one :) Well, what's he lacking? Damage spells? Because you can fix that pretty quick by using his Advanced Learning on Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.
TheWhirlingDeathaxe 06-05-07, 07:11 PM	I've seen two beguilers in action. The first was as a DM running Expidition to Castle Ravenloft. The player ended up being very frustrated with her choice of class because of all of the undead. Therein lies the beguilers greatest weakness. If the bad guys are non-living, you're stuck using your very limited selection of buff spells and then hiding. She definately shined in the area of trapfinding and door opening though. The other is in the campaign I'm currenly a player in. Our party is pretty big at 6 players, but the beguiler still manages to shine. He's ended multiple encounters with his sleep spell and the subdual dammage spells (whelm). We have a rougue in the groupwho is very gung ho about his job as trapfinder and door opener, so his huge skill list has been somewhat subdued in this adventure so far. The beguiler (IMO) is a fantastic class, and very well balanced. As a DM I allowed the beguiler to take the warmages substitution level from the PHB 2 allowing her to use her advanced learning on non-enchantment non-illusion spells, but treating that spell as a higher level spell. (i.e. fireball could be learned as a 4th level spell) I did notice that the beguiler suffers a lull in power at around 6th level, but picks back up quickly around 10th-12th level. This was just with the build my player chose though and may not hold true for each beguiler.
Thawmus 06-05-07, 07:17 PM	I've seen two beguilers in action. The first was as a DM running Expidition to Castle Ravenloft. The player ended up being very frustrated with her choice of class because of all of the undead. Therein lies the beguilers greatest weakness. If the bad guys are non-living, you're stuck using your very limited selection of buff spells and then hiding. She definately shined in the area of trapfinding and door opening though. The other is in the campaign I'm currenly a player in. Our party is pretty big at 6 players, but the beguiler still manages to shine. He's ended multiple encounters with his sleep spell and the subdual dammage spells (whelm). We have a rougue in the groupwho is very gung ho about his job as trapfinder and door opener, so his huge skill list has been somewhat subdued in this adventure so far. The beguiler (IMO) is a fantastic class, and very well balanced. As a DM I allowed the beguiler to take the warmages substitution level from the PHB 2 allowing her to use her advanced learning on non-enchantment non-illusion spells, but treating that spell as a higher level spell. (i.e. fireball could be learned as a 4th level spell) I did notice that the beguiler suffers a lull in power at around 6th level, but picks back up quickly around 10th-12th level. This was just with the build my player chose though and may not hold true for each beguiler. You would be better off taking a 1 level dip into a prestige class like Mindbender, keeping your spellcasting going as-is, but delaying your advanced learning a bit. This way, you can pick up Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and the greater versions later on. With Shadow Evocation, they can cast Fireball, or any other evocation spell at 4th level or lower, but with your 5th level DCs (not to mention, since it's an illusion spell, and you should have spell focus for illusion spells by then, it's at a significantly high DC)
windscar18 06-05-07, 07:56 PM	You sure about that? Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556). Beguiler is my favorite base class ever. They have one more class skill than rogues and often more skill points (thanks to Int based casting). You can be the trap disarmer/skill monkey and give great support in combat. Use the variant rule in PHBII for the Warmage's Advanced Learning and you can get some really useful stuff. That's cheating :P . Besides, even the author admits that making it a wizard would probably be more powerful. Hell, even I can see that (FOCUSED SPECIALIST IN THE FACE!)
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-07, 10:40 PM	I find them quite well balanced and if your party mage is a warmage, then the Bequiler is very useful.
foxtail 06-06-07, 08:25 AM	I find them quite well balanced and if your party mage is a warmage, then the Bequiler is very useful. Oh, I imagine a beguiler and a warmage would work excellently together. Between the two, you've got everything but utility spells covered, and the host of special abilities besides. I've gotta get my party to try that.
Lawkeeper 06-06-07, 08:42 AM	A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example. As for the weakness of the beguiler when facing unliving foes, the rogue actually faces the same when you look on his sneak attack. Even worse since his SA absolutely does not work, while the beguiler can still buff himself and his colleagues up, and use illusions.
Lotus Crane 06-06-07, 11:48 AM	A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example. Not necessarily; bards can become Sublime Chords, while beguiler's can't. And Sublime Chords are arguably better primary spellcasters than even sorcerers.
Lawkeeper 06-06-07, 12:33 PM	Not necessarily; bards can become Sublime Chords, while beguiler's can't. And Sublime Chords are arguably better primary spellcasters than even sorcerers. Better spellcasters, yes. But beguilers get plentiful more skills, especially as their spellcasting being based on Intelligence. As rogue-replacements, they're better ; and they'll know more spells.
Brendan Candries 06-06-07, 12:59 PM	You would be better off taking a 1 level dip into a prestige class like Mindbender, keeping your spellcasting going as-is, but delaying your advanced learning a bit. This way, you can pick up Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and the greater versions later on. With Shadow Evocation, they can cast Fireball, or any other evocation spell at 4th level or lower, but with your 5th level DCs (not to mention, since it's an illusion spell, and you should have spell focus for illusion spells by then, it's at a significantly high DC) aye, nice approach. another very nice one-level dip is shadow adept (FRCS) at level 7.
goawayugh 06-06-07, 01:19 PM	That's cheating :P . Besides, even the author admits that making it a wizard would probably be more powerful. Hell, even I can see that (FOCUSED SPECIALIST IN THE FACE!) Cheating is a word I find VERY offensive. I DON'T CHEAT! I hate people who cheat in games. I make it a point of knowing all the rules to a game, so I can exploit them to my benefit, yet still play by the rules. It is not cheating if it is within the rules. Granted, it is ridiculously over powered, but still legal. Yes, Wizard may be a better start for the Shadowcraft Mage, but Beguiller is very good too.
windscar18 06-06-07, 01:23 PM	Cheating is a word I find VERY offensive. I DON'T CHEAT! I hate people who cheat in games. I make it a point of knowing all the rules to a game, so I can exploit them to my benefit, yet still play by the rules. It is not cheating if it is within the rules. Granted, it is ridiculously over powered, but still legal. Yes, Wizard may be a better start for the Shadowcraft Mage, but Beguiller is very good too. I was just joking as that uses a clearly non-beguiler approach to spellcasting :P.
goawayugh 06-06-07, 01:36 PM	Yeah, I realized that after I already posted and saw the smiley. Didn't bother editing it though.
Lawkeeper 06-06-07, 03:15 PM	Better spellcasters, yes. But beguilers get plentiful more skills, especially as their spellcasting being based on Intelligence. As rogue-replacements, they're better ; and they'll know more spells. Just un update : Sublime chord doesn't ask that you have more than one level of bard - all that is asked is that you have the bardic music ability. So, beguiler9/bard1 will do the trick, with more spells/day and spells known than with pure bard.:cool: And for an added benefit, 9th level of beguiler doesn't give anything more than a 3rd and a 4th level spells, so you can dip in a 1st level of any spellcasting PrC. Among examples that give +1 spellcasting level at first level : loremaster ; mindbender, fatespinner, bloodmagus (Complete Arcane) ; unseen seer (Complete Mage) ; or shadow adept as Brendan Candries says.
Thawmus 06-07-07, 10:28 AM	A beguiler is perhaps the best way to have a second arcane spellcaster in place of a rogue in a four-members group. Much better at it than the bard for example. Completely agreed. I'm currently playing a Beguiler in a party of about 8 people, and I'm one of only two arcanists (Most of them don't understand spellcasting, and have gotten too frustrated with it). One of which is constantly dumping levels into Rogue rather than his spellcasting class. So I have my hands full. And I'm going to HAVE to pick up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, along with the greater versions. We just don't have anyone else in the party that will be doing it at later levels, so I'm going to have to be picking up the slack. On the other hand, there is a lot of synergy between me and the two rogues in the party. Our last encounter, I turned one of them invisible, and cast Distract Assailant for them after the first round, so that they could keep getting their SA dice. A Beguiler can make fellow rogues VERY powerful. As for the weakness of the beguiler when facing unliving foes, the rogue actually faces the same when you look on his sneak attack. Even worse since his SA absolutely does not work, while the beguiler can still buff himself and his colleagues up, and use illusions. Having gone up against a zombie horde once already, I can attest to this. However, once you pick up Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, as I plan to do, you should be able to perform during undead encounters more often.
Mikura 06-08-07, 10:37 PM	When I started playing as a kid in 1st edition I played Illusionists. I'm playing a Beguiler in my current campaign and it almost feels like old times, but I actually get to fight. In the last session we were pinned down by a guy with a composite bow (who never seemed to miss!). Two of the four of us were down, and the other guy was using enemy corpses for cover. I was crouched out of sight behind a building, and sent a Minor Image of myself running across 25' opening to the next building. Since he thought I went one way, this allowed me to move around the other way and get behind him and hit him with my rapier, also relieving the guy behind the bodies. We had him killed the next round.