Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elrinade 10-19-06, 10:31 PM	Scrying (maybe greater?) and prying eyes (greater?) are needed! Comments? Thoughts?
Joseph_Silver 10-22-06, 07:36 AM	The beguiler is already seen as overpowered. I don't think this rogue/sorcerer hybrid should get more spells.
Starman IX 10-22-06, 07:53 AM	Overpowered?
Otto the Bugbear 10-22-06, 08:51 AM	Scrying (maybe greater?) and prying eyes (greater?) are needed! Comments? Thoughts? Beguiler is illusion and enchantment themed. Those are divinations. Care to explain the thought process behind this petition? Cheers Otto :)
MerlintheTuna 10-22-06, 08:53 AM	Overpowered? There's no resource more valuable than more people, and the Beguiler is incredible at getting them. They're not necessarily powerhouses in combat (although their spell list does get pretty impressive later on), but the fact that they can raise armies without too much effort outside of combat makes them very powerful.
zae 10-22-06, 08:55 AM	Overpowered? I think it simply works as a great sorcerer, but with some weaknesses covered over to put it on par with a wizard. Even then, it isn't on par with a wizard, but is better than the basic sorc. But they did the right thing: instead of just ramping up the power of the casting, they instead made the former "really bad" points simply "medium" - they made them more skillful, more surviveable etc. But I don't think they need those spells. They ue illusions and mind control to get their way into a place to spy on things, rather than doing it from a safe distance. If you want Scry&Die, be a wizard.
Slyver 10-22-06, 12:02 PM	Overpowered is at the same time both completely relative and abusively overused. The beguiler has no "overpoweredness" about it. There is nothing it can do that some other optimized build can't do better. What it is, is an out of the box decent class. Full of flavor, self sufficient and fun. It doesn't take any optimizing to make it feel like a full class, or to keep up with the Jones'. One of the problems (and strengths, depending on your point of view) with this type of class is that it doesn't allow for much in the way of optimizing with PRCs. Far from being overpowered, it is actually potentially less powerful than most classes because of its strengths. Beguiler is illusion and enchantment themed. Those are divinations. Care to explain the thought process behind this petition? The expanded learning only allows for picks from enchantment and illusion. This actually confused me as well when I first read that, since a close examination of their spell-list shows it to be primarily enchantment, illusion, and divination. Should those spells be on the spell list, or at least pickable by expanded learning? Yes, absolutely. They fully fit the theme (in my mind) and are hardly going to break anything. Slyver
MerlintheTuna 10-22-06, 12:06 PM	Let's drop the "Overpowered" line of discussion. It wasn't truly my intent to suggest that the Beguiler falls in that category. But the one-word response of "Overpowered?" appeared to me to be a sort of "Overpowered? Surely you jest, for this class cannot even fling the mighty fireball," routine. My goal was to point out that the Beguiler is, as Slyver describes, very powerful out of the box, and that his power is fairly straightforward due to the way his mechanics are described with flavor text.
Starman IX 10-22-06, 12:30 PM	Let's drop the "Overpowered" line of discussion. It wasn't truly my intent to suggest that the Beguiler falls in that category. But the one-word response of "Overpowered?" appeared to me to be a sort of "Overpowered? Surely you jest, for this class cannot even fling the mighty fireball," routine. My goal was to point out that the Beguiler is, as Slyver describes, very powerful out of the box, and that his power is fairly straightforward due to the way his mechanics are described with flavor text.Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like that. I should have said more. Classes like Beguiler, Warmage and Dread Necromancer are niche. They're great at what they do at early levels, but they peter out at around 10th-ish level. A beguiler is great at social situations like someone said, but you're not gonna negotiate with a mob or something that doesn't care about your enchantment and illusion spells. Same thing can be said about Warmage. Destruction is not the answer to everything. Haven't dealt with a Dread Necro, but I'm sure he boils down to one thing too. Niche, not overpowered.
Qatharsis 10-22-06, 12:59 PM	The Beguiler isn't as niche as you make him sound. Sure, raising mobs to do your job is not applicable to your average dungeon-crawl. Sure, a lot of that social prowess goes unused when the group prefers action-oriented adventuring. But even so, the Beguiler spell list contains a surprising number of highly useful spells that can really turn the tide in combat. He's got color spray and sleep for those low levels, dispel magic, haste, slow, confusion etc for the mid-range, and the power words and time stop for the endgame; all the nice invisibility spells, all the charm/hold/domination spells... and best of all, he automatically knows all spells of any level he attains! This practically guarantees that you'll always have something useful to do with that last unspent spell slot... And the skills, don't forget the skills! Since you're going to max Int, you'll end up with more than your average rogue... The Beguiler certainly sounds like an extremely fun character to play, too bad I haven't yet had the opportunity. I just love that flavor, style and non-trivial modus operandi.
Gideon_Gideonson 10-22-06, 01:15 PM	The Beguiler isn't overpowered. Actually, unless you really know how to use illusions, its fairly weak at times. But its SO MUCH FUN!!! Sorry...I love this class. Back on topic: I don't think it needs scrying. The beguiler isn't a spy. It's simply a trickster. In a prestige class, I could see these spells being added, but the base class has no need to scry on things. It doesn't mesh with the flavor of the class...it turns it from a controller/trickster into a spymaster. If that's what you want, build a PrC.
Orion_Danthyer 10-22-06, 02:09 PM	First off, the beguilers should not get scrying and prying eyes because they are into ench. and Illusion. And second, no way is the beguiler overpowered in any way. They have limited spells compared to a sorcerer or wizard, and i bet you anything a cleric can stop them. They are like bards, not good by themselves, but great in a party.
Slyver 10-22-06, 02:30 PM	Back on topic: I don't think it needs scrying. The beguiler isn't a spy. It's simply a trickster. In a prestige class, I could see these spells being added, but the base class has no need to scry on things. It doesn't mesh with the flavor of the class...it turns it from a controller/trickster into a spymaster. If that's what you want, build a PrC. I couldn't disagree more. The flavor text for the beguiler, as well as the mechanics suggest that a beguiler is perfectly suited for spying. Scrying is also directly related to the controlling and trickster aspects of roleplaying in DnD terms. As for what the class already has... For scrying spells, on their list they have detect secret doors, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate creature and the granddaddy of all scrying spells, discern location. Why not scry? They can already do it to some level of effectiveness, and when they get 8th level spells they can do it as well as can be done within the game. Why do they skip from clairaudience/clairvoyance all the way to discern location? There is no balance reason. My guess is, they didn't want the list to appear to long. People scream "overpowered" all the time. (Heh.) I am willing to bet those spells (and several others I can list) were recommended for the list but were cut off for this very reason: because people who have no real concept of what constitutes game balance love to scream overpowered. Slyver Edit: I just took a close look at the beguiler. For starting packages they have three listings; The Controller, The Trickster, and The Investigator. If an arcane investigator doesn't use scrying I don't know who in DnD would.
Archangel62 10-22-06, 03:21 PM	The beguiler is already seen as overpowered. I don't think this rogue/sorcerer hybrid should get more spells. From what you've stated so far on other threads it seems to me that your idea of overpowered is something that doesn't get killed when a person sneezes and is constantly dwarfed by everything around it. Not to mention that you hate anything that strays out of a predefined niche.
Kurama Youko 10-22-06, 03:47 PM	couldnt they just jump into the divine oracle class for more scrying spells/synergy.