Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raul Windrider 08-13-06, 01:03 AM	Take your standard sword-swinging fantasy fighter. How highly trained are most of these types in hand to hand combat? I know they are not monks--pure hand-to-hand martial artists--but wouldn't you say that most military academies teach at least some basics of hand-to-hand, similar to the modern/real world military and other primarily weapon-oriented martial arts?
LordPendragon 08-13-06, 01:06 AM	It would make sense that they do. I assume that's meant to be reflected in the fact that a high base attack makes them effective with unarmed attacks (at least, magically enhanced unarmed attacks... but they need magically enhanced weapons anyways).
Raul Windrider 08-13-06, 01:10 AM	True. I've been wondering this about a lot of the more elite fantasy type weapons fighters; Drizzt, Artemis, various Jedi and Sith etc. Then again some D&D fighters might ignore hand-to-hand training out of practicality. It's not like it would do you much good against a troll or ogre.
periscope 08-13-06, 01:11 AM	Thats what the guantlet proficiencies are for.
spectralphoenix 08-13-06, 01:11 AM	If they want to take the appropriate feats, very. Keep in mind that all fighters are different. There is no one background for fighters, nor a curriculum for "Fighter College." A fighter with no feats will be better than most other classes simply by virtue of his BAB. Of course, if he wants to be good at it, he takes feats, which represent time spent learning unarmed fighting techniques instead of fencing or archery or whatever.
Salla 08-13-06, 01:13 AM	Certainly makes a valid justification for taking Improved Unarmed Strike (or dipping one level of Monk and calling it basic HTH training).
a_m0ogle 08-13-06, 01:41 AM	I'm like the concept of a pure fighter unarmed combatant. Improved Unarmed strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, and tons of add-on feats. Improved Trip.. grapple.. disarm.. etc. That could be quite good.
SeptimusMagistos 08-13-06, 11:19 AM	Possible with a lot of non-source material.
Esponer 08-13-06, 01:47 PM	The way I'd envisage a "fighter" class is to give them an ability called Martial Prowess, which provides a series of scaling benefits. Firstly a dodge bonus which is reduced by armour check penalty (thus enabling unarmoured fighters, but not adding additional power to heavily armoured ones), secondly a nonmagical enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with any weapons they are proficient with (thus not stacking with magical weapons), and thirdly increased unarmed strike damage (although Improved Unarmed Strike would still be necessary for someone who didn't want to provoke attacks of opportunity). Martial Prowess would essentially reflect that all skilled fighters are somewhat adapt at fighting unarmed and armoured, allowing fighters to be a little less useless if they lose their equipment.
Ralvuimego 08-13-06, 07:28 PM	The way I'd envisage a "fighter" class is to give them an ability called Martial Prowess, which provides a series of scaling benefits. Firstly a dodge bonus which is reduced by armour check penalty (thus enabling unarmoured fighters, but not adding additional power to heavily armoured ones), secondly a nonmagical enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with any weapons they are proficient with (thus not stacking with magical weapons), and thirdly increased unarmed strike damage (although Improved Unarmed Strike would still be necessary for someone who didn't want to provoke attacks of opportunity). Martial Prowess would essentially reflect that all skilled fighters are somewhat adapt at fighting unarmed and armoured, allowing fighters to be a little less useless if they lose their equipment. Don't get me wrong, it sounds great at face value, especially for RP purposes, but there are problems. The dodge bonus makes wearing heavy armor at all almost redundant, since light armor is much cheaper, doesn't restrict movement, and has a very small armor check penalty. Assuming the bonus tops out at +4, a fighter in a chain shirt would have an equal AC to a fighter in full plate, without much of the penalties. The bonus to attack and damage rolls makes fighters less dependant on magical weapons, true, allowing the fighter to focus on armor and other magical doodads, which is a problem, believe it or not. A fighter could just as easily carry as many copies of a weapon as he needs special abilities for to overcome whatever special resistances his foes has, then just lean back on the innate enhancement bonus he has to do the grunt work instead of having to put out the effort to buy that big +5 vorpal flaming burst superweapon most fighters seek. ------------------------------------- Truthfully, the fighter class doesn't need any changing, it just needs better bonus feat options, something to make it worth going Fighter 20.
a_m0ogle 08-13-06, 07:51 PM	+5 vorpal flaming burst superweapon ------------------------------------- Truthfully, the fighter class doesn't need any changing, it just needs better bonus feat options, something to make it worth going Fighter 20. Vorpral is horrible :P, huge waste of +5 enhancement, and would not be an aspect of a super-weapon, unless you are going for a fighter that is meant to go against opponents twice his level and needs such to have a 1/20 chance in beating that opponent.. I agree with the second part.
Flay Crimsonwind 08-13-06, 08:01 PM	*snip*Improved Unarmed strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, and tons of add-on feats. *snip*Where is this feat located? I cannot find it. Sorry if this is off topic, though it may help others too.
aelryinth 08-13-06, 08:25 PM	It's from Tome of Battle. +3 BAB req, gives Unarmed Strike progression that climbs with levels. A Proper FIGHTER feat. It scales with level, unlike almost all other fighter feats. I like the OA saying about open hand, and any sensible melee instructor HAS to include grappling and hand to hand combat techniques, simply because so much battle takes place in close quarters. A Thousand Days of Hand, a Hundred days of SPear, First day of Sword. ==Aelryinth
Esponer 08-13-06, 08:36 PM	The dodge bonus makes wearing heavy armor at all almost redundant, since light armor is much cheaper, doesn't restrict movement, and has a very small armor check penalty. Assuming the bonus tops out at +4, a fighter in a chain shirt would have an equal AC to a fighter in full plate, without much of the penalties. Indeed: seen as the parity you mention would occur at higher levels where the cost of full-plate has nearly become negligible, I don't see this as much of an issue. Armour bonuses and dodge bonuses are very different beasts, with advantages and disadvantages relative to each other: armour bonuses aren't effective against touch attacks, but dodge bonuses aren't useful when denied your Dexterity bonus, such as when you're flat-footed. Going for lightly armoured would never be the "obvious choice", but it would at least become a viable option. Your figures seem off, though, as if the bonus tops out at +4, a fighter in full-plate would have 2 more AC over the fighter in the chain shirt (wearing a chain shirt, you'd only usually benefit from +2 of that +4 bonus due to ACP). The bonus to attack and damage rolls makes fighters less dependant on magical weapons, true, allowing the fighter to focus on armor and other magical doodads, which is a problem, believe it or not. A fighter could just as easily carry as many copies of a weapon as he needs special abilities for to overcome whatever special resistances his foes has, then just lean back on the innate enhancement bonus he has to do the grunt work instead of having to put out the effort to buy that big +5 vorpal flaming burst superweapon most fighters seek. Said bonus probably caps out at +2 or +3. A dedicated fighter is probably going to want a +5 weapon, or at least a reliable and long-lasting way to treat his favoured weapon as a +5 weapon (e.g. spells). It does make "+1 wrathful healing speed wounding blessed greatsword" a point or two more viable, but... so?