Beholder as a monster class, where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beholder as a monster class, where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Electric_Zombie
01-26-07, 12:59 AM Howdy,

We're playing a 20th level campaign and we get the opportunity to play almost anything. Got approval from our DM that I could make a Beholder, but I can't find anywhere information on a Beholder as a player character.

I checked Savage Species and the Lords of Madness books, neither have anything regarding racial attribute adjustments, level adjustments, and advancement.

There are some cool feats in the Lords of Madness book that I'll definitely take advantage of, but I need to make the character first.

Does anything exist in any of the source books for a Beholder? Or do I just follow the Monster rules in the Savage Species (calculating CR, etc.) I'd much rather roll my own stats and apply them how I want with racial adjustments than using the pre-generated stats from the Monster Manual.

Thanks,

EZ
Electric_Zombie
01-26-07, 01:10 AM I did a search on Google, and I found this on another website. I think someone made it, but it looks pretty good. Any comments or suggestions?

http://www.planewalker.com/codex/entry.php?intEntryID=11023
Electric_Zombie
01-26-07, 02:46 AM Gah, I already found a problem with this guy's advancement table.

If the ECL of the Beholder is +6 with a total character level of 17, then as a character you'd advance 11 levels of Beholder for a total of 17 levels including the ECL. That would be consistent with the Monster Manual of 11 HD average. He has it advancing 17 levels of beholder. With the ECL that'd be 23 levels of Beholder.

Sigh. This is confusing. :(
kadeity
01-26-07, 03:56 AM there is no beholder monster class...and i know, it sucks.

I wanted to play a beholder several times, but theres not much of a way to do it. You MIGHT be able to make the Lesser Beholder (Gauth) into a monster class...but thats about it as for options.
travellersside
01-26-07, 08:13 AM Gah, I already found a problem with this guy's advancement table.

If the ECL of the Beholder is +6 with a total character level of 17, then as a character you'd advance 11 levels of Beholder for a total of 17 levels including the ECL. That would be consistent with the Monster Manual of 11 HD average. He has it advancing 17 levels of beholder. With the ECL that'd be 23 levels of Beholder.

Nope, you're just not used to this sort of progression. The linked Beholder 'class' has 17 levels. However, it only has 11 HD, which means that the ECL has also been accounted for in those 17 levels. See those dead levels, where you gain no HD, no skill points, and that don't count towards feats? Those are the ECL levels. The class abilities have been spread accross all 17 levels, so that you still get a feature when you hit an ECL level, else you'd just level up and gain absolutely nothing. This is how it's been done since Savage Species, so there's nothing odd here.
Armoracia Rusticana
01-26-07, 09:41 AM Polymorph Any Object. Namely, self. Or pay mage to do so. Here you go, mister Beholder.
runestar
01-26-07, 10:23 AM Beholders are ECl24(11HD, LA+13)...You still can't play one as of yet...:(
Electric_Zombie
01-26-07, 11:48 AM Nope, you're just not used to this sort of progression. The linked Beholder 'class' has 17 levels. However, it only has 11 HD, which means that the ECL has also been accounted for in those 17 levels. See those dead levels, where you gain no HD, no skill points, and that don't count towards feats? Those are the ECL levels. The class abilities have been spread accross all 17 levels, so that you still get a feature when you hit an ECL level, else you'd just level up and gain absolutely nothing. This is how it's been done since Savage Species, so there's nothing odd here.

Oh, oh, I get it. So you take "blank" levels occasionally which rounds out the ECL for the total of 17 levels.

Beholders are ECl24(11HD, LA+13)...You still can't play one as of yet...:(

LA of +13? Is that in any of the books? I looked around on Google and found a rather extensive thread on it. But it was based around 3.0 and they were under the assumption that the Beholder's hovering was a persistant Fly spell and were including a +2 ECL for that; but it's not a spell, it's a "natural bouyancy," according to the Lords of Madness book. So if you kill a Beholder, the body still hovers.

I think that'd bring it down to 11. +1 for each eye stalk, and +1 for the main eye. Although the Savage Species 3.5 edition says that only persistant special abilities (always on) are adusted for CR. So that would mean the main eye. And only 3 eye stalks can point in any 1 direction. So that also should limit the CR as well. They don't have hands and can't use weapons, so they're pretty much limited to their eyes only.

I think I'm reaching, here, but I just wanna get it into 20 levels. :)
travellersside
01-26-07, 01:26 PM Hmm. Let's look at this linked 'class' since that means that we're all looking at the same thing. Is it equivalent to a level 17 character?

Well, the stats are certainly favourable, but it's worth noting that with only 11 HD over 17 levels, you have a shockingly low BAB, skill points and saves - in other words, those stats help to reduce your penalties, rather than make you better than an average character. Unfortunately, you have less feats than you should have, due to the +LA effect. As an additional side effect, you are extremely vulnerable to magical effects based on your HD, since you have so many less than most people of your ECL. These are all extremely bad. ECL 17 with 11D8 hp is approximately the same as 17D4, except that constitution bonuses will be less effective (+2 Con only gives +11hp, rather than +17) It's a good thing that you get a total of +4 Con, because you will need them. With these extra Con points, you still have less hit points than a D8 class at level 17 would.

This class isn't by any stretch of imagination capable of performing skill functions, due to having an absurdly low cap on the skills, not to mention the entire 'no manipulative appendages' bit. Mage Hand will help, but it's very weak. Later, at level 11, you can use Telekinesis once/day, but that's it until you hit level 15, when it becomes unlimited. You need other people to do these things for you.

As far as physical combat goes, forget it. As previously mentioned, you have no manipulative appendages, thus your only attack option is your bite. It starts as a 1D6 natural attack, but since you achieve Large size at level 7, it will upgrade to 1D8 then. Even so, you have the same BAB as a wizard would, and very few hit points. Combat is not only not an option, but you'll be worse than the aforementioned wizard, since at least he can use a magic weapon for a bonus to hit.

So, are you any good as a base for a spellcasting class? No. You're appalling. You are 17 caster levels behind anyone else, so your +8 Int, +4 Wis and +4 Cha really won't help you.

In other words, you don't synergise with any class whatsoever. Since your progression stops dead at level 17, you're going to have to multiclass at this point. Your best bet would probably be Warlock, but I'm not entirely sure if even that would be worth it. By the look of it, a beholder can use all of its eyes as free actions, so you have the time left for a warlock's spell-likes. It'll give you a few new options.

Okay. Now that we know what the implications are, what do you get? Well, it's a very odd 'class' in that you eventually get the chance to cast an absurdly high number, but completely rigid selection, of spells every round. Early on, you won't have many uses of them, but they eventually become unlimited. Some of them are nice, true, but the big problem is that your 'spell selection' is very poor. At level 17, you are 3 caster levels down (effective CL is HD+3, i.e. 14) and most of your powers are irrelevant.

It looks to be a very frustrating class, since you're going to have too few uses of your eyes at the time when they're worth using, yet have unlimited use after they become obsolete. You'll make a decent nuisance, with your anti-magic cone, but you will be contributing less and less as time goes by. While I'm all for playing odd things, I do consider this to be an unplayable race, not least because it isn't worth 17 levels.

WotC have previously stated that they've artificially inflated the +LA of the non-standard races, in order to 'encourage' people to not play them. As it is, you see, your racial powers are accounted for in the LA, which is fine. This is then added onto your racial HD, which seems fine on the surface, until you realise something interesting. If you take all the powers away, you're stating that a racial HD is worth the same as a class HD, which is only true if you're an outsider or dragon. In the case of the beholder, they're saying that 11HD of 3/4 BAB, 2 skill points, D8 hp and no class features is equal to a level in a class. Any class. Do you see the problem yet? You're essentially paying twice for your powers. The first time in the LA, and the second time when they're claimed as being the reason that you're stuck with racial HD. Truthfully, a full beholder is probably worth roughly 12-13 levels, not 17.

Anyway, have a look over the linked class (http://www.planewalker.com/codex/entry.php?intEntryID=11023) and see whether you think that this is just as good as a level 17 barbarian, rogue, cleric or wizard. Can this 'class' compete in a party against CR17 critters? No. It'll get minced.

Have Fun!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Electric_Zombie 01-26-07, 12:59 AM	Howdy, We're playing a 20th level campaign and we get the opportunity to play almost anything. Got approval from our DM that I could make a Beholder, but I can't find anywhere information on a Beholder as a player character. I checked Savage Species and the Lords of Madness books, neither have anything regarding racial attribute adjustments, level adjustments, and advancement. There are some cool feats in the Lords of Madness book that I'll definitely take advantage of, but I need to make the character first. Does anything exist in any of the source books for a Beholder? Or do I just follow the Monster rules in the Savage Species (calculating CR, etc.) I'd much rather roll my own stats and apply them how I want with racial adjustments than using the pre-generated stats from the Monster Manual. Thanks, EZ
Electric_Zombie 01-26-07, 01:10 AM	I did a search on Google, and I found this on another website. I think someone made it, but it looks pretty good. Any comments or suggestions? http://www.planewalker.com/codex/entry.php?intEntryID=11023
Electric_Zombie 01-26-07, 02:46 AM	Gah, I already found a problem with this guy's advancement table. If the ECL of the Beholder is +6 with a total character level of 17, then as a character you'd advance 11 levels of Beholder for a total of 17 levels including the ECL. That would be consistent with the Monster Manual of 11 HD average. He has it advancing 17 levels of beholder. With the ECL that'd be 23 levels of Beholder. Sigh. This is confusing. :(
kadeity 01-26-07, 03:56 AM	there is no beholder monster class...and i know, it sucks. I wanted to play a beholder several times, but theres not much of a way to do it. You MIGHT be able to make the Lesser Beholder (Gauth) into a monster class...but thats about it as for options.
travellersside 01-26-07, 08:13 AM	Gah, I already found a problem with this guy's advancement table. If the ECL of the Beholder is +6 with a total character level of 17, then as a character you'd advance 11 levels of Beholder for a total of 17 levels including the ECL. That would be consistent with the Monster Manual of 11 HD average. He has it advancing 17 levels of beholder. With the ECL that'd be 23 levels of Beholder. Nope, you're just not used to this sort of progression. The linked Beholder 'class' has 17 levels. However, it only has 11 HD, which means that the ECL has also been accounted for in those 17 levels. See those dead levels, where you gain no HD, no skill points, and that don't count towards feats? Those are the ECL levels. The class abilities have been spread accross all 17 levels, so that you still get a feature when you hit an ECL level, else you'd just level up and gain absolutely nothing. This is how it's been done since Savage Species, so there's nothing odd here.
Armoracia Rusticana 01-26-07, 09:41 AM	Polymorph Any Object. Namely, self. Or pay mage to do so. Here you go, mister Beholder.
runestar 01-26-07, 10:23 AM	Beholders are ECl24(11HD, LA+13)...You still can't play one as of yet...:(
Electric_Zombie 01-26-07, 11:48 AM	Nope, you're just not used to this sort of progression. The linked Beholder 'class' has 17 levels. However, it only has 11 HD, which means that the ECL has also been accounted for in those 17 levels. See those dead levels, where you gain no HD, no skill points, and that don't count towards feats? Those are the ECL levels. The class abilities have been spread accross all 17 levels, so that you still get a feature when you hit an ECL level, else you'd just level up and gain absolutely nothing. This is how it's been done since Savage Species, so there's nothing odd here. Oh, oh, I get it. So you take "blank" levels occasionally which rounds out the ECL for the total of 17 levels. Beholders are ECl24(11HD, LA+13)...You still can't play one as of yet...:( LA of +13? Is that in any of the books? I looked around on Google and found a rather extensive thread on it. But it was based around 3.0 and they were under the assumption that the Beholder's hovering was a persistant Fly spell and were including a +2 ECL for that; but it's not a spell, it's a "natural bouyancy," according to the Lords of Madness book. So if you kill a Beholder, the body still hovers. I think that'd bring it down to 11. +1 for each eye stalk, and +1 for the main eye. Although the Savage Species 3.5 edition says that only persistant special abilities (always on) are adusted for CR. So that would mean the main eye. And only 3 eye stalks can point in any 1 direction. So that also should limit the CR as well. They don't have hands and can't use weapons, so they're pretty much limited to their eyes only. I think I'm reaching, here, but I just wanna get it into 20 levels. :)
travellersside 01-26-07, 01:26 PM	Hmm. Let's look at this linked 'class' since that means that we're all looking at the same thing. Is it equivalent to a level 17 character? Well, the stats are certainly favourable, but it's worth noting that with only 11 HD over 17 levels, you have a shockingly low BAB, skill points and saves - in other words, those stats help to reduce your penalties, rather than make you better than an average character. Unfortunately, you have less feats than you should have, due to the +LA effect. As an additional side effect, you are extremely vulnerable to magical effects based on your HD, since you have so many less than most people of your ECL. These are all extremely bad. ECL 17 with 11D8 hp is approximately the same as 17D4, except that constitution bonuses will be less effective (+2 Con only gives +11hp, rather than +17) It's a good thing that you get a total of +4 Con, because you will need them. With these extra Con points, you still have less hit points than a D8 class at level 17 would. This class isn't by any stretch of imagination capable of performing skill functions, due to having an absurdly low cap on the skills, not to mention the entire 'no manipulative appendages' bit. Mage Hand will help, but it's very weak. Later, at level 11, you can use Telekinesis once/day, but that's it until you hit level 15, when it becomes unlimited. You need other people to do these things for you. As far as physical combat goes, forget it. As previously mentioned, you have no manipulative appendages, thus your only attack option is your bite. It starts as a 1D6 natural attack, but since you achieve Large size at level 7, it will upgrade to 1D8 then. Even so, you have the same BAB as a wizard would, and very few hit points. Combat is not only not an option, but you'll be worse than the aforementioned wizard, since at least he can use a magic weapon for a bonus to hit. So, are you any good as a base for a spellcasting class? No. You're appalling. You are 17 caster levels behind anyone else, so your +8 Int, +4 Wis and +4 Cha really won't help you. In other words, you don't synergise with any class whatsoever. Since your progression stops dead at level 17, you're going to have to multiclass at this point. Your best bet would probably be Warlock, but I'm not entirely sure if even that would be worth it. By the look of it, a beholder can use all of its eyes as free actions, so you have the time left for a warlock's spell-likes. It'll give you a few new options. Okay. Now that we know what the implications are, what do you get? Well, it's a very odd 'class' in that you eventually get the chance to cast an absurdly high number, but completely rigid selection, of spells every round. Early on, you won't have many uses of them, but they eventually become unlimited. Some of them are nice, true, but the big problem is that your 'spell selection' is very poor. At level 17, you are 3 caster levels down (effective CL is HD+3, i.e. 14) and most of your powers are irrelevant. It looks to be a very frustrating class, since you're going to have too few uses of your eyes at the time when they're worth using, yet have unlimited use after they become obsolete. You'll make a decent nuisance, with your anti-magic cone, but you will be contributing less and less as time goes by. While I'm all for playing odd things, I do consider this to be an unplayable race, not least because it isn't worth 17 levels. WotC have previously stated that they've artificially inflated the +LA of the non-standard races, in order to 'encourage' people to not play them. As it is, you see, your racial powers are accounted for in the LA, which is fine. This is then added onto your racial HD, which seems fine on the surface, until you realise something interesting. If you take all the powers away, you're stating that a racial HD is worth the same as a class HD, which is only true if you're an outsider or dragon. In the case of the beholder, they're saying that 11HD of 3/4 BAB, 2 skill points, D8 hp and no class features is equal to a level in a class. Any class. Do you see the problem yet? You're essentially paying twice for your powers. The first time in the LA, and the second time when they're claimed as being the reason that you're stuck with racial HD. Truthfully, a full beholder is probably worth roughly 12-13 levels, not 17. Anyway, have a look over the linked class (http://www.planewalker.com/codex/entry.php?intEntryID=11023) and see whether you think that this is just as good as a level 17 barbarian, rogue, cleric or wizard. Can this 'class' compete in a party against CR17 critters? No. It'll get minced. Have Fun!