Being a paladin for Blackguard reasons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being a paladin for Blackguard reasons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Glissa Sunseeker
11-03-03, 10:37 AM I've just started a group. One of the players has chosen a paladin solely for the reason to change, at level 11, into a Blackguard and 5eceive the bonuses. These classes are the opposite of one another, and since is alignment is now LG, I fear he may not be driving his character as he would want to, being nice and all. It's a long way to level 11, and that's what makes this difficult... Shouldn't I advise him to create another evil-oriented character, instead of letting him play on his false paladin acts? I know it's his character, but still...
Eco-Mono
11-03-03, 10:52 AM I think it's fine. He's got the spiritual growth (or atrophy, if you prefer) of his character planned out... as long as his character is sincerely, truly Lawful Good now, and there is a REASON come level 11 why he would fall to blackguardness, I don't see any problem with it. Remind him though that he might need to take a while at lower power, since alignment change is gradual, and for a while he'll have no paladin powers but still not be evil enough to be a blackguard.

If all else fails, remember that blackguards must be contacted by a deity, which is 100% DM controlled. If his fall wasn't convincing, it probably wouldn't convince Hextor either.
ManTimeForgot
11-03-03, 10:58 AM Can't become a blackguard at level 11 if he falls at level one now can he?

Make sure the guy plays the paladin right, which I seriously doubt he can because players who want to become a blackguard are generally the same players with no concept of what it means to be a paladin to begin with.

Tell your player that the paladin is a paragon of good. This means he has to try and be good in every conceivable circumstance. What's more is that if he ever willingly does evil, then he is auto-fallen. If after that he still wants to go for it, then I would say let him. It is unfortunate that the "paladins" of all the various alignments ala first edition no longer exist. So for those who actually wish to play out a champion evil, sure why not.

But you must remind the player of what a blackguard is too. A blackguard is the opposite of a paladin. A blackguard who willingly does good is just as much in the hole as a paladin who does evil. What this means is is that if the player once he becomes a blackguard decides to be charitable, caring, compassionate, loving, honest (different than truthful in that honest implies using truth as a recourse rather than using truth when convenient), or selfless, then he is SOL.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
detectevil
11-03-03, 11:25 AM I swear to god, if I ever hear the words "paragon of good" in this boards again I'm going berserk...

Well, what level have you started the campaign? I've seem many players change their minds about the path they have chosen for their characters along play. If a blackguard dosen't fit your campaign, you can make it clear to the player without saying a word. Just puting them in situations where a blackguard wouldn't fit.

What is the rest of the party? What are their alignements? If you have a mainly good party, they would hardly accept a blackguard to join them. If it's a mainly neutral party, unless the paladin is williing to influece the rest of the party into good (which most are) the paladin will probably end up being affected by them. And will eventually fall.

Anyhow... it's not that good idea to change from paladin to blackguard on purpose. To become a BG, you must be of evil alignement. Changing alignements takes time. But you loose the paladin's power on the first evil action. So, I would say the ex-paladin will go around a long time without his powers before he finally becomes a BG.
Glissa Sunseeker
11-03-03, 11:43 AM We started at level one, new characters. One is a rogue dreaming of becoming an assassin. There is a good cleric, a fighter and two wizards who keep fighting each other merely for power reasons (both true neutral),(I don't want to imagine what will happen if they ever learn fireball), and that paladin who has a LG alignment... I'm going to let him play how he wants, but if he evers wants to be risen has a paladin after his fall, he can go take a turn to the Abyss, so help me Takhisis.
detectevil
11-03-03, 12:31 PM Hehehe... you have nothing to worry. This party does'nt sound like it's gonna last till level 11.
Maraxus
11-03-03, 05:08 PM A Paladin and a rogue, who wants to become an assasin? :D Cool.

I think, this is the right enviroment for a paladin to fall. He will probably sacrifice the cleric to his evil deitry of choise, to get his first blackguard-level. :devil:
Glissa Sunseeker
11-04-03, 05:40 PM Well, do you think the party's not going to last to level 11? They have handled everything pretty well. Their first encounter: three goblins who had stolen the item they were supposed to deliver (I know, goblins stealing is almost the the same as a dwarf dancing...) and they didn't take much damage. They got out practically unharmed, in fact. Have I failed calculating their suitable EL?

When it comes to the assassin... I don't know. It's a long way there. Maybe I'll just make him kill a prince or such. Escaping from an enraged army would be great for the adventure!
Daybreaker
11-04-03, 06:40 PM My only question is, does he plan to make the change because that sounds like a cool story, or is he just after some bonuses?
detectevil
11-05-03, 08:43 AM It's not about calculating ECL. It's about facing other kinds of challenge. Killing monsters is not the only thing, you know? There are monsters that are ridiculously easy to some parties, and completly impossible for others (I name the allip as an example. Almost no 4th level party can take that thing). And there are other challenges. A party with rogue, cleric and paladin calls for a moral challenge.

The point is, a party that is not working togheter, looses a member every two sessions. And if those guys roleplay right, they look like they will disagree a lot.
Jontg
11-05-03, 11:29 AM I take it none of you read Dragon magazine? There was a whole section in the July issue about variant Paladins for other alignments--and in the September issue, they have three Blackguard-style core classes: The Despot (Lawful Evil), the Corruptor (Neutral Evil) and everyone's favorite, the Chaotic Evil Anti-paladin! If your player wants to become a blackguard, why not tell him about these classes and see if he changes his plans for a character?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Glissa Sunseeker 11-03-03, 10:37 AM	I've just started a group. One of the players has chosen a paladin solely for the reason to change, at level 11, into a Blackguard and 5eceive the bonuses. These classes are the opposite of one another, and since is alignment is now LG, I fear he may not be driving his character as he would want to, being nice and all. It's a long way to level 11, and that's what makes this difficult... Shouldn't I advise him to create another evil-oriented character, instead of letting him play on his false paladin acts? I know it's his character, but still...
Eco-Mono 11-03-03, 10:52 AM	I think it's fine. He's got the spiritual growth (or atrophy, if you prefer) of his character planned out... as long as his character is sincerely, truly Lawful Good now, and there is a REASON come level 11 why he would fall to blackguardness, I don't see any problem with it. Remind him though that he might need to take a while at lower power, since alignment change is gradual, and for a while he'll have no paladin powers but still not be evil enough to be a blackguard. If all else fails, remember that blackguards must be contacted by a deity, which is 100% DM controlled. If his fall wasn't convincing, it probably wouldn't convince Hextor either.
ManTimeForgot 11-03-03, 10:58 AM	Can't become a blackguard at level 11 if he falls at level one now can he? Make sure the guy plays the paladin right, which I seriously doubt he can because players who want to become a blackguard are generally the same players with no concept of what it means to be a paladin to begin with. Tell your player that the paladin is a paragon of good. This means he has to try and be good in every conceivable circumstance. What's more is that if he ever willingly does evil, then he is auto-fallen. If after that he still wants to go for it, then I would say let him. It is unfortunate that the "paladins" of all the various alignments ala first edition no longer exist. So for those who actually wish to play out a champion evil, sure why not. But you must remind the player of what a blackguard is too. A blackguard is the opposite of a paladin. A blackguard who willingly does good is just as much in the hole as a paladin who does evil. What this means is is that if the player once he becomes a blackguard decides to be charitable, caring, compassionate, loving, honest (different than truthful in that honest implies using truth as a recourse rather than using truth when convenient), or selfless, then he is SOL. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
detectevil 11-03-03, 11:25 AM	I swear to god, if I ever hear the words "paragon of good" in this boards again I'm going berserk... Well, what level have you started the campaign? I've seem many players change their minds about the path they have chosen for their characters along play. If a blackguard dosen't fit your campaign, you can make it clear to the player without saying a word. Just puting them in situations where a blackguard wouldn't fit. What is the rest of the party? What are their alignements? If you have a mainly good party, they would hardly accept a blackguard to join them. If it's a mainly neutral party, unless the paladin is williing to influece the rest of the party into good (which most are) the paladin will probably end up being affected by them. And will eventually fall. Anyhow... it's not that good idea to change from paladin to blackguard on purpose. To become a BG, you must be of evil alignement. Changing alignements takes time. But you loose the paladin's power on the first evil action. So, I would say the ex-paladin will go around a long time without his powers before he finally becomes a BG.
Glissa Sunseeker 11-03-03, 11:43 AM	We started at level one, new characters. One is a rogue dreaming of becoming an assassin. There is a good cleric, a fighter and two wizards who keep fighting each other merely for power reasons (both true neutral),(I don't want to imagine what will happen if they ever learn fireball), and that paladin who has a LG alignment... I'm going to let him play how he wants, but if he evers wants to be risen has a paladin after his fall, he can go take a turn to the Abyss, so help me Takhisis.
detectevil 11-03-03, 12:31 PM	Hehehe... you have nothing to worry. This party does'nt sound like it's gonna last till level 11.
Maraxus 11-03-03, 05:08 PM	A Paladin and a rogue, who wants to become an assasin? :D Cool. I think, this is the right enviroment for a paladin to fall. He will probably sacrifice the cleric to his evil deitry of choise, to get his first blackguard-level. :devil:
Glissa Sunseeker 11-04-03, 05:40 PM	Well, do you think the party's not going to last to level 11? They have handled everything pretty well. Their first encounter: three goblins who had stolen the item they were supposed to deliver (I know, goblins stealing is almost the the same as a dwarf dancing...) and they didn't take much damage. They got out practically unharmed, in fact. Have I failed calculating their suitable EL? When it comes to the assassin... I don't know. It's a long way there. Maybe I'll just make him kill a prince or such. Escaping from an enraged army would be great for the adventure!
Daybreaker 11-04-03, 06:40 PM	My only question is, does he plan to make the change because that sounds like a cool story, or is he just after some bonuses?
detectevil 11-05-03, 08:43 AM	It's not about calculating ECL. It's about facing other kinds of challenge. Killing monsters is not the only thing, you know? There are monsters that are ridiculously easy to some parties, and completly impossible for others (I name the allip as an example. Almost no 4th level party can take that thing). And there are other challenges. A party with rogue, cleric and paladin calls for a moral challenge. The point is, a party that is not working togheter, looses a member every two sessions. And if those guys roleplay right, they look like they will disagree a lot.
Jontg 11-05-03, 11:29 AM	I take it none of you read Dragon magazine? There was a whole section in the July issue about variant Paladins for other alignments--and in the September issue, they have three Blackguard-style core classes: The Despot (Lawful Evil), the Corruptor (Neutral Evil) and everyone's favorite, the Chaotic Evil Anti-paladin! If your player wants to become a blackguard, why not tell him about these classes and see if he changes his plans for a character?