Being useful in and out of combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Being useful in and out of combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paradisio
05-30-05, 01:10 AM I don't know if I should put this in this forum or what... I am torn between this, optimization, and "what's a player to do?"

My last character was a druid, and I loved the character, good backstory and fun to play.... I had to retire because the party was becoming predominatly evil and were going to kill fey, and I didn't want to be the party jerk because I couldn't help.

Now, thinking we were going to be in a war... I made a warmage.

And we haven't fought a single battle in a couple of sessions, and with practically no skills of use, I feel completely useless.

Starting at half experience again will hurt, but I will do it if perhaps I can get some balance between combat and out of combat situations... Any advice on a class?
Razel
05-30-05, 01:20 AM you don't need any particular class to be effective outside of combat. Your effectiveness outside of combat is offten determined by a combination of your skills (knoladges, crafts, preforms, diplomacy, ect) and your roleplaying. If you really want to have a tone of skills, then go with rouge or bard, they get tons of skills and are effective in combat.
CzarGarrett
05-31-05, 09:13 AM Roleplaying should take the role of skills in a lot of situations.

Do more roleplaying, and you'll feel more useful.
Jaid
05-31-05, 01:02 PM you could do some limited multiclassing.

and yes, it will help you to have skills...

i mean, honestly, maybe your DM just ignores whether or not people have diplomacy or whatever in your group, personally i wouldn't (the skill is there for a reason, but so long as you adjust your campaign accordingly, i suppose it doesn't matter that much)...

but please explain how you are supposed to "roleplay" your way up a wall, or across a river? (that would be climb and swim, if you hadn't guessed). how are you supposed to roleplay your ability to notice small details?

he didn't say diplomatic situations, he said out of combat situations. big difference there.

anyways, best i can reccommend is to look for odd uses to your spells... for example, disintegrate can remove obstacles as well as kill enemies. while you will still be somewhat hurting in social-type situations, that should help you some in others.

oh, and even crossclassed, some skills could still be worthwhile... bluff or diplomacy for example would not be bad options to cross-class some skills into unless you have specific uses for all your skill points.
Paradisio
05-31-05, 06:45 PM I do roleplay, more than anyone else, and I am the only one who talks in character, even the DM doesn't.

But apparently since I have no spot or listen, the DM has basically made me blind and deaf, since he makes the players roll to see/hear even obvious things (like a small creature not hiding or a cannon going off fairly close to myself.)

I have no diplomacy skill, only intimidate, which doesn't really help when the party is trying to befriend people.

I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter, so I basically have no utility otherwise. I knew this would be a problem going into the class, but not fighting a single thing for several sessions, really only leaves me the ability to talk and maybe roll a knowledge check.
LordHell
05-31-05, 07:14 PM Roleplaying should take the role of skills in a lot of situations.

Do more roleplaying, and you'll feel more useful.

I certainly disagree with this.

This makes the 'Mind' ability scores of the game severly underpowered vs the physical ability scores.

To be honest, I dont care how good you can make an argument or string a flowery sentance together, if your character has 3 charisma your roleplaying isnt going to make a difference.

Having said that, if your character has a low charisma, you should roleplay it as such.

As for the original poster. This is what you get for being a one trick pony.
Paradisio
05-31-05, 09:03 PM Before this turns into a flame war, can I get some more advice about the original question about which class I should use?
Rahie_Leios
05-31-05, 09:27 PM Defenatly the bard, out of battle they do the most, high charisma gives you a good reason to RP and talk to people, you can still do alright in combat. and if you read dragon magazine they have a jester class that can make even the most none battle campaine fun.....that and they can do powerword kill once per day

Rahie Leios
Encard
05-31-05, 10:17 PM Hmm... Well, you could go with bard, as a previous poster suggested - that'd certainly make you useful out of combat, and I know there are some bardic builds that could be quite nice in combat as well. A swashbuckler character (not necessarily taking full levels in that class - perhaps a Fighter/Swashbuckler/Duelist sort of build would work) could be nice, since you'd have both the out-of-combat social skills and a fair amount of in-combat ability at your disposal. A Telepath Psion would have both Diplomacy and a lot of mind-affecting powers (as well as other powers) that could be quite effective both in an out of combat. A basic rogue character would also fit the bill.

I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter, so I basically have no utility otherwise.
Wouldn't Orb of Force do the trick?
Votan
06-01-05, 02:49 AM Before this turns into a flame war, can I get some more advice about the original question about which class I should use?

I also like classes that balance both in and out of combat. Some classes to consider:

Wilder: 4 skill points per level, d6 hit points, wears light armor and has a nice skill list. Can be a bit of a one trick pony in combat (blast damage) but some nice options here. In the end can actuall end up with more diversity than the warmage by careful power selection. Carefully consdier expanded nowledge to get energy missle and astral construct. Note that spot and listen are both class skills.

Druid: 4 skill points per level. Decent skill list. Wildshape is ever useful and it is an ideal utility feature for the class (birds can fly over walls, bears can tear down doors). Spells on the druid lists don't pinnacle like the arcane and cleric lists (levels 7 to 9 tend to be weaker although this is not true erleir than that) but it so doesn't matter.

Telepath: 2 skill points a level but a caster with INT as a stat. Has access to the key social skills as class skills. Lots of feats comapred to a wilder. If a 13 wisdom can be afforded you can slip in some nice things like inquistor using bonus feats. Powers can be used in many non-combat situations for stuff like mind reading.

Ranger: 6 skill points a level and is a +1 BAB melee class. Pick something like human for your favored enemy and reap the benefits of skill bonuses agaisnt them. It's a scout and a skilled one at that. Not a favored choice of mine only because I prefer casters but definitely fills the skilled warrior niche.

Monk: 4 skill points per level. It's an odd choice but a very defensive one. Monks are very good at staying alive and have a number of abilities that work well outside of combat. In particular, they make fearsome scouts and assassins.

Rogues and Bards have solid skill lists and can be valuable members of a party. However, in particular, I tend to find Bards underperform at low levels compared to other classes. Rogues can be very solid but are very sensitive to bad situations and can be built badly easily.

If you want to keep your warmage and prestige classes are an option, do see if the Daggerspell Mage (complete Adventurer) is an option. Has 6 skill points per level and the warmage will lose little with the multi-classing and lost caster levels.
VerinBlod
06-01-05, 05:34 AM I would go with bard if you really feel that a new character is in place. You could go for the sublime chord PrC. You still progres as a bard and get access to the sor/wiz spell list and eventually 9th level spells.
FeanorCursed
06-01-05, 11:36 AM Ranger, i thing, it's good in and out of combats
solbergb
06-01-05, 12:59 PM I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter.

Um....

Acid orb
Sonic orb
Shatter

Just off the top of my head, all of these can clear away obstacles. Not efficiently if the DM rules hardness works vs acid or sonic, and shatter has some weight limits, but no warmage should be balked by a barrier for long.

Truestrike+missile weapon can sometimes do trick shots, which can help with getting a rope or grapnel up a cliff.

Tenser's disc (you should have this at L3) has a variety of out of combat uses, including making everyone in the party (except you if you believe the latest FAQ) immune to having to make balance checks on difficult surfaces, hauling away bodies, hauling tons of grain to starving people etc. It is also a stepladder and a delivery system for the party fighter to blenderize an enemy (put fighter on disc. Use your move action to move the fighter to the enemy while you attack with a spell. Fighter now can full attack...with +1 for height advantage)

Leomund's hut (Lvl 6 advanced learning) has a lot of out of combat uses, mostly having to do with environment (heat, cold, sandstorm, blizzard) mitigation.

Pyrotechnics and sleet storm can put out fires. Pyrotechnics is good for signaling.

Intimidate...can be useful if making friends isn't working. You also get Kn History as a class skill...put some ranks into it, it can be surprisingly helpful.
Galahdeon
06-01-05, 01:19 PM you should stick with the classes you want. yes a battle mage is for battles but then they sometimes bring the battle along with them. i have been playing a ranger and have a load of fun doing it even though i am in an urban area i still do everthing i want to do even if i suck at the skill like starting a bare fight and then calling the town guard for the hell of it then trying to bluff my way out with a -4. in this way i put presure on my DM to do something he might not have planed on or that he didn't want it is your job as a PC to ask questions when your roleplaying the youjust decide on how your character would handel the situation for instance testing cheap potions do you try it yourself or do you give it to a companyon to test it for you? Now if you can think of other ways to test it then great. then your class skills you don't have listen and spot as class skills so what you can still do them. I am going to be DMing a campagn soon and i expect all my players to ask questions and the PCs to respond to what i describe , or outline for them. you don't have to have the right skill you can use any skill. or a combination of skills or even spells :mage: :fight!: hehehehehehe
Mercurius
06-01-05, 01:31 PM It sounds to me like your DM might be misinterpreting the rules for skills and such in the game. Anyone can make listen and spot checks, and the DC for seeing someone who's standing in plain sight ought to be so low that even if he is making you roll for it you should be fine. I'd try talking to him about how useless you're feeling due to how he handles your out of combat interactions and see if you can work something out.
Paradisio
06-01-05, 01:55 PM We'll the point is pretty moot, out of the year the campaign is running, we have never not been able to go somewhere because there was a wall the party couldn't destroy or something.

I can't cast tensers floating disc, because it requires mercury, and mercury is only had by the people who live in cincinati, and they are stingy and near impossible to get to (no, im not kidding.)
solbergb
06-01-05, 02:48 PM Maybe you need the Eschew Materials feat in a campaign like that. That would certainly be my approach.

I have played in a campaign where spell ink (ie what you scribe scrolls and spellbooks with) was something that ran out very quickly for the whole continent. (at leats within teleport range). Not available at any price because the basis was black pearls that generally were regurgitated by water dragons. No I am not making this up :)

My caster/alchemist was thinking of working on a new formula, if she ever got any downtime.

Seriously though, the level 3 advanced learning is wasted if you can't get the component for the only evocation spell that you don't already have on your list.
Votan
06-01-05, 03:28 PM Maybe you need the Eschew Materials feat in a campaign like that. That would certainly be my approach.

Eschew materials is a strange feat. On one hand it can be a useless feat if spell components are treated as flavor. On the other hand, it can be a lifesaver if they need to be found and gathered -- doubly so if the odd ones (like swallowing a live spider) are strictly enforced (let's roll and see if the spider for that spell is still alive -- no, you swallowed a bug for nothing).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 05-30-05, 01:10 AM	I don't know if I should put this in this forum or what... I am torn between this, optimization, and "what's a player to do?" My last character was a druid, and I loved the character, good backstory and fun to play.... I had to retire because the party was becoming predominatly evil and were going to kill fey, and I didn't want to be the party jerk because I couldn't help. Now, thinking we were going to be in a war... I made a warmage. And we haven't fought a single battle in a couple of sessions, and with practically no skills of use, I feel completely useless. Starting at half experience again will hurt, but I will do it if perhaps I can get some balance between combat and out of combat situations... Any advice on a class?
Razel 05-30-05, 01:20 AM	you don't need any particular class to be effective outside of combat. Your effectiveness outside of combat is offten determined by a combination of your skills (knoladges, crafts, preforms, diplomacy, ect) and your roleplaying. If you really want to have a tone of skills, then go with rouge or bard, they get tons of skills and are effective in combat.
CzarGarrett 05-31-05, 09:13 AM	Roleplaying should take the role of skills in a lot of situations. Do more roleplaying, and you'll feel more useful.
Jaid 05-31-05, 01:02 PM	you could do some limited multiclassing. and yes, it will help you to have skills... i mean, honestly, maybe your DM just ignores whether or not people have diplomacy or whatever in your group, personally i wouldn't (the skill is there for a reason, but so long as you adjust your campaign accordingly, i suppose it doesn't matter that much)... but please explain how you are supposed to "roleplay" your way up a wall, or across a river? (that would be climb and swim, if you hadn't guessed). how are you supposed to roleplay your ability to notice small details? he didn't say diplomatic situations, he said out of combat situations. big difference there. anyways, best i can reccommend is to look for odd uses to your spells... for example, disintegrate can remove obstacles as well as kill enemies. while you will still be somewhat hurting in social-type situations, that should help you some in others. oh, and even crossclassed, some skills could still be worthwhile... bluff or diplomacy for example would not be bad options to cross-class some skills into unless you have specific uses for all your skill points.
Paradisio 05-31-05, 06:45 PM	I do roleplay, more than anyone else, and I am the only one who talks in character, even the DM doesn't. But apparently since I have no spot or listen, the DM has basically made me blind and deaf, since he makes the players roll to see/hear even obvious things (like a small creature not hiding or a cannon going off fairly close to myself.) I have no diplomacy skill, only intimidate, which doesn't really help when the party is trying to befriend people. I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter, so I basically have no utility otherwise. I knew this would be a problem going into the class, but not fighting a single thing for several sessions, really only leaves me the ability to talk and maybe roll a knowledge check.
LordHell 05-31-05, 07:14 PM	Roleplaying should take the role of skills in a lot of situations. Do more roleplaying, and you'll feel more useful. I certainly disagree with this. This makes the 'Mind' ability scores of the game severly underpowered vs the physical ability scores. To be honest, I dont care how good you can make an argument or string a flowery sentance together, if your character has 3 charisma your roleplaying isnt going to make a difference. Having said that, if your character has a low charisma, you should roleplay it as such. As for the original poster. This is what you get for being a one trick pony.
Paradisio 05-31-05, 09:03 PM	Before this turns into a flame war, can I get some more advice about the original question about which class I should use?
Rahie_Leios 05-31-05, 09:27 PM	Defenatly the bard, out of battle they do the most, high charisma gives you a good reason to RP and talk to people, you can still do alright in combat. and if you read dragon magazine they have a jester class that can make even the most none battle campaine fun.....that and they can do powerword kill once per day Rahie Leios
Encard 05-31-05, 10:17 PM	Hmm... Well, you could go with bard, as a previous poster suggested - that'd certainly make you useful out of combat, and I know there are some bardic builds that could be quite nice in combat as well. A swashbuckler character (not necessarily taking full levels in that class - perhaps a Fighter/Swashbuckler/Duelist sort of build would work) could be nice, since you'd have both the out-of-combat social skills and a fair amount of in-combat ability at your disposal. A Telepath Psion would have both Diplomacy and a lot of mind-affecting powers (as well as other powers) that could be quite effective both in an out of combat. A basic rogue character would also fit the bill. I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter, so I basically have no utility otherwise. Wouldn't Orb of Force do the trick?
Votan 06-01-05, 02:49 AM	Before this turns into a flame war, can I get some more advice about the original question about which class I should use? I also like classes that balance both in and out of combat. Some classes to consider: Wilder: 4 skill points per level, d6 hit points, wears light armor and has a nice skill list. Can be a bit of a one trick pony in combat (blast damage) but some nice options here. In the end can actuall end up with more diversity than the warmage by careful power selection. Carefully consdier expanded nowledge to get energy missle and astral construct. Note that spot and listen are both class skills. Druid: 4 skill points per level. Decent skill list. Wildshape is ever useful and it is an ideal utility feature for the class (birds can fly over walls, bears can tear down doors). Spells on the druid lists don't pinnacle like the arcane and cleric lists (levels 7 to 9 tend to be weaker although this is not true erleir than that) but it so doesn't matter. Telepath: 2 skill points a level but a caster with INT as a stat. Has access to the key social skills as class skills. Lots of feats comapred to a wilder. If a 13 wisdom can be afforded you can slip in some nice things like inquistor using bonus feats. Powers can be used in many non-combat situations for stuff like mind reading. Ranger: 6 skill points a level and is a +1 BAB melee class. Pick something like human for your favored enemy and reap the benefits of skill bonuses agaisnt them. It's a scout and a skilled one at that. Not a favored choice of mine only because I prefer casters but definitely fills the skilled warrior niche. Monk: 4 skill points per level. It's an odd choice but a very defensive one. Monks are very good at staying alive and have a number of abilities that work well outside of combat. In particular, they make fearsome scouts and assassins. Rogues and Bards have solid skill lists and can be valuable members of a party. However, in particular, I tend to find Bards underperform at low levels compared to other classes. Rogues can be very solid but are very sensitive to bad situations and can be built badly easily. If you want to keep your warmage and prestige classes are an option, do see if the Daggerspell Mage (complete Adventurer) is an option. Has 6 skill points per level and the warmage will lose little with the multi-classing and lost caster levels.
VerinBlod 06-01-05, 05:34 AM	I would go with bard if you really feel that a new character is in place. You could go for the sublime chord PrC. You still progres as a bard and get access to the sor/wiz spell list and eventually 9th level spells.
FeanorCursed 06-01-05, 11:36 AM	Ranger, i thing, it's good in and out of combats
solbergb 06-01-05, 12:59 PM	I don't have any spells capable of destroying matter. Um.... Acid orb Sonic orb Shatter Just off the top of my head, all of these can clear away obstacles. Not efficiently if the DM rules hardness works vs acid or sonic, and shatter has some weight limits, but no warmage should be balked by a barrier for long. Truestrike+missile weapon can sometimes do trick shots, which can help with getting a rope or grapnel up a cliff. Tenser's disc (you should have this at L3) has a variety of out of combat uses, including making everyone in the party (except you if you believe the latest FAQ) immune to having to make balance checks on difficult surfaces, hauling away bodies, hauling tons of grain to starving people etc. It is also a stepladder and a delivery system for the party fighter to blenderize an enemy (put fighter on disc. Use your move action to move the fighter to the enemy while you attack with a spell. Fighter now can full attack...with +1 for height advantage) Leomund's hut (Lvl 6 advanced learning) has a lot of out of combat uses, mostly having to do with environment (heat, cold, sandstorm, blizzard) mitigation. Pyrotechnics and sleet storm can put out fires. Pyrotechnics is good for signaling. Intimidate...can be useful if making friends isn't working. You also get Kn History as a class skill...put some ranks into it, it can be surprisingly helpful.
Galahdeon 06-01-05, 01:19 PM	you should stick with the classes you want. yes a battle mage is for battles but then they sometimes bring the battle along with them. i have been playing a ranger and have a load of fun doing it even though i am in an urban area i still do everthing i want to do even if i suck at the skill like starting a bare fight and then calling the town guard for the hell of it then trying to bluff my way out with a -4. in this way i put presure on my DM to do something he might not have planed on or that he didn't want it is your job as a PC to ask questions when your roleplaying the youjust decide on how your character would handel the situation for instance testing cheap potions do you try it yourself or do you give it to a companyon to test it for you? Now if you can think of other ways to test it then great. then your class skills you don't have listen and spot as class skills so what you can still do them. I am going to be DMing a campagn soon and i expect all my players to ask questions and the PCs to respond to what i describe , or outline for them. you don't have to have the right skill you can use any skill. or a combination of skills or even spells :mage: :fight!: hehehehehehe
Mercurius 06-01-05, 01:31 PM	It sounds to me like your DM might be misinterpreting the rules for skills and such in the game. Anyone can make listen and spot checks, and the DC for seeing someone who's standing in plain sight ought to be so low that even if he is making you roll for it you should be fine. I'd try talking to him about how useless you're feeling due to how he handles your out of combat interactions and see if you can work something out.
Paradisio 06-01-05, 01:55 PM	We'll the point is pretty moot, out of the year the campaign is running, we have never not been able to go somewhere because there was a wall the party couldn't destroy or something. I can't cast tensers floating disc, because it requires mercury, and mercury is only had by the people who live in cincinati, and they are stingy and near impossible to get to (no, im not kidding.)
solbergb 06-01-05, 02:48 PM	Maybe you need the Eschew Materials feat in a campaign like that. That would certainly be my approach. I have played in a campaign where spell ink (ie what you scribe scrolls and spellbooks with) was something that ran out very quickly for the whole continent. (at leats within teleport range). Not available at any price because the basis was black pearls that generally were regurgitated by water dragons. No I am not making this up :) My caster/alchemist was thinking of working on a new formula, if she ever got any downtime. Seriously though, the level 3 advanced learning is wasted if you can't get the component for the only evocation spell that you don't already have on your list.
Votan 06-01-05, 03:28 PM	Maybe you need the Eschew Materials feat in a campaign like that. That would certainly be my approach. Eschew materials is a strange feat. On one hand it can be a useless feat if spell components are treated as flavor. On the other hand, it can be a lifesaver if they need to be found and gathered -- doubly so if the odd ones (like swallowing a live spider) are strictly enforced (let's roll and see if the spider for that spell is still alive -- no, you swallowed a bug for nothing).