Berserker Barbarian and Stacking Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Berserker Barbarian and Stacking Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duergar
07-01-07, 07:29 AM Well people, is me again, i would like to ask a question if you dont mind, well back in the phbII, there is the berserker barbarian, so i read the book and it says you give up your rage for berserker, so here is the question, if i take one level of berserker(barbarian) and at level 2 i take a lever of normal barbarian, the rage and berserker bonus stacks? cause if that is possible think about, rage plus berserker plus frenzy, but i dunno, i am playing a gestalt campaign so i wonder if i can go "barbarian/berserker" Frenzied Berserker/Eye of gruumsh" and make a killing machine, well thats the question, if i happed to ignore some rules tell me in what book they are, cause in gestalt says that you cant take the same class twice, but since is not the same class, i have a shoot, thanks a lot people, :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Anguish2
07-01-07, 09:58 AM When DMing, I wouldn't allow that. Generally, alternate class features replace existing features, not create a new base class. Thusly, if playing with an alternate barbarian, you can't also dip into core-barbarian. What I probably would allow in most cases is two different characters to use the two different mechanics. So one raging barbarian and one berserking barbarian could co-exist in the same campaign. Just never the same character.
Silverthumb128
07-01-07, 11:31 AM I've wondered about this before, too, since Barbarian grants Rage, but Berserk(Deities & Demigods Prestige Class) grants Frenzy. They're similar abilities, but different enough. Maybe? Hard to say, by RAW.
AbusedFrog
07-01-07, 01:11 PM If someone DID allow it they would compromise, at least this is what MY DM would do, and let you have it but you couldnt enter both frenzy AND rage at the same time telling me that they are two different states of being... but hey thats just my DM maybe you can talk yours into it.
kalstrand
07-01-07, 02:10 PM You can't take Barbarian 1 and Barbarian 1. The berserker ability in the PHB2 is not a serperate Barbarian class it just changes the rage abilitiy granted in the PHB for the berserk ability in the PHB2. The frenzy ability granted by the Frenzied Berserker or the Berserker class in Dieties and Demi-gods stacks with either of the rage abilities, but they probably won't stack with each other (I am away from books so I cant verify right now.).
Tiverine
07-01-07, 02:25 PM the thing is simple... if you are taking a substitution level then it replaces the precedent class feature totally even if you take another level in that class. If your character get a level in one class and a level in an other class, and the first and second class give him similar powers, if they haven't the same name then stack otherwise they don't stack, so a frenzy doesn't stack with an other frenzy, and a rage doesn't stack with an other rage, but a rage stacks with a frenzy.
deviknyte
07-01-07, 08:21 PM You can enter a frenzy from Frenzied Berserker stacks with rage. Says so on page 34 Complete Warrior. Battle fury from the Berserk PrC in the Deities and Demigods doesn't say it doesn't stack, so it does. Now become a Bear Warrior and call it a day. The only thing about taking Berserker Barbarian is that I'd let it stack with rage if you can find a prestige class that give rages. But I wouldn't let a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian and Rage stack, but that's just IMO, rule wise.. they'd stack.

Non-lawful Good Berserker Barbarian, Fighter (you need the feats to Prc), Berserk, Frenzied Berserker, PrC that gives Rage, PrC that gives Rage that I'm trading for Whirling Frenzy, Bear Warrior (trading Frenzied Berserker bonuses for bear form) with the Righteous Wrath feat a wilding weapon and a lot of wilding clasp.

This all stacks but, by RAW you can't have a PrC trade rage for Whirling Frenzy or have Righteous Wrath work on things other than rage. If it did you could get around the Battle Fury killing nearest creature (the whole time), the party, than objects (sucks for boat battles by the way). And if it did you could get around the Frenzy killing living creatures after foes are dead. Also note all rage feats and the extra rages granted by the bear warrior only apply to Rage and sometimes Frenzy. You also can only trade the stat bonuses from frenzy or rage for bear form. But I'd trade frenzy because it has the weakest stat bonuses.

But to answer your question and not boast power. Rage, Battle Fury, Berserker Strength, Frenzy traded in for Bear Form, and Whirling Frenzy all stack all the while getting a haste attack and a melee rapid shot and buying a lot of wilding. Getting them all legally and having a lot of the abilities apply to simular/like abilities requires house ruling.
deviknyte
07-01-07, 08:35 PM I'd like to add that I can make a much better version of this being a lawful good Sohei (Oriental Adventures 3.0). It also helps my will save if I can be the original Samurai (Oriental Adventures 3.0). 2Fighter 2Orig Sam versus 4Fighter. His str and con don't raise as high but he get the same amount of extra attacks and a better AC.
IRememberCecil
07-01-07, 08:36 PM Battle fury from the Berserk PrC in the Deities and Demigods doesn't say it doesn't stack, so it does.
Actually, that's not how D&D works. If it doesn't say it can or does, than it can't/doesn't. The Player's Handbook, for example, doesn't state that Barbarians can't cast 9th level spells. By your reasoning, Barbarians then become supremely overpowered, to the point of being broken.

Anyways, the abilities both stack for a different reason: They both provide untyped bonuses and are separate sources.

Remember, bonuses of the same type don't stack except if they're both untyped (i.e. not deflection, alchemical, profane, etc.) and come from different sources.
Johnny_Angel
07-01-07, 08:45 PM If you really want a simple way of doing this, play a shifter barbarian; shift and rage at the same time.
Duergar
07-01-07, 09:21 PM TYVM, cause the new books dont say anything about stacking, but variants are "new clases" so barbarian1 barbarian berserker 1, will have rage and berserk
Johnny_Angel
07-01-07, 09:43 PM I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that variants are not considered new classes. I'm also about 80% sure that PHBII actually addresses this issue. I'll read through the copy I have and see if I can find where it says that; I'll post the page when I find it.

If they were, I'd take 2 levels of the variant fighter and then take 2 levels of the regular fighter and end up with 4 bonus feats.

Other books that address this issue are Unearthed Arcana and Complete Warrior (CW has a variant paladin and a variant ranger.)

Now, there are some exceptions to this. One exception which comes to mind is that you could multiclass Druid with Urban Druid, but that's not even really an exception because they're actually two different classes.
Silverthumb128
07-01-07, 10:28 PM Alright, how about this description: Rage is Kaioken, Frenzy is Super Saiyan 1. :D

Goku says they stack...
Johnny_Angel
07-01-07, 11:01 PM Rage from barbarian and frenzy from the various PrCs do stack; I'm still pretty sure you can't multiclass with only 1 class: barbarian and barbarian.
StruckingFuggle
07-01-07, 11:04 PM I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that variants are not considered new classes.

You could be, but you're not.

TYVM, cause the new books dont say anything about stacking, but variants are "new clases" so barbarian1 barbarian berserker 1, will have rage and berserk

You're wrong. See above.

If you ue the "Berserker Frenzy" Variant from the PHBII, it's not a seperate class. It's more like the "Rage" class feature for a Barbarian gets replaced with something like a Rogue's "Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities)". You get your choice of either "Rage" or "Berserker Frenzy".

At Level 1, and only at Level 1.

And since you can't take Level 1 of Barbarian again, you can't also get Rage. Alternate Class Features are exactly that. Alternate class features for extant classes, not new classes - so they optionally replace something. It's a trade, not an addition.

However, at the same time, any of the rage-esque-but-not-rage class features, regardless of name (unless it's "rage" and behaves like rage, or "berserker frenzy" and behaves like berserker frenzy - two classes granting rage don't give you "double rage") do stack.

Seperate but similar abilities, providing unnamed bonuses basically always stack, unless explicitly noted (A Swordsage and Ninja's AC with a Monk, for example).
Salla
07-01-07, 11:08 PM The PHBII Berserker Strength is a class feature substitution, not a separate class.
deviknyte
07-02-07, 08:49 AM Sorry. First, I'm correcting myself. RAW Whirling Frenzy can't stack with Rage... RAW.

Second, when I said that if it doesn't say it doesn't stack I was apply my D&D knowledge on others, I figured that everyone knew the no named boths stacks, bonuses from the same named ability, spell or power don't and bonuses of the same name don't (with a few exception). I was just applying that into the it doesn't say it doesn't stack. My bad.

Third, can can't take a variant of a class than another variant or the core version. You can not take different versions of a class. So says the UnAr.

But as in my demonstration, you can be a Barbarian with Berserker Strength, than PrC into a class with Rage.
StruckingFuggle
07-02-07, 12:18 PM [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Sorry. First, I'm correcting myself. RAW Whirling Frenzy can't stack with Rage... RAW.

Not just RAW. It's a lot harder than just "not RAW", because Whirling Frenzy is another alternate class feature for the Barbarian, replacing Rage - you could as much get WF and Rage as you could get Berserker Frenzy as Rage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duergar 07-01-07, 07:29 AM	Well people, is me again, i would like to ask a question if you dont mind, well back in the phbII, there is the berserker barbarian, so i read the book and it says you give up your rage for berserker, so here is the question, if i take one level of berserker(barbarian) and at level 2 i take a lever of normal barbarian, the rage and berserker bonus stacks? cause if that is possible think about, rage plus berserker plus frenzy, but i dunno, i am playing a gestalt campaign so i wonder if i can go "barbarian/berserker" Frenzied Berserker/Eye of gruumsh" and make a killing machine, well thats the question, if i happed to ignore some rules tell me in what book they are, cause in gestalt says that you cant take the same class twice, but since is not the same class, i have a shoot, thanks a lot people, :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Anguish2 07-01-07, 09:58 AM	When DMing, I wouldn't allow that. Generally, alternate class features replace existing features, not create a new base class. Thusly, if playing with an alternate barbarian, you can't also dip into core-barbarian. What I probably would allow in most cases is two different characters to use the two different mechanics. So one raging barbarian and one berserking barbarian could co-exist in the same campaign. Just never the same character.
Silverthumb128 07-01-07, 11:31 AM	I've wondered about this before, too, since Barbarian grants Rage, but Berserk(Deities & Demigods Prestige Class) grants Frenzy. They're similar abilities, but different enough. Maybe? Hard to say, by RAW.
AbusedFrog 07-01-07, 01:11 PM	If someone DID allow it they would compromise, at least this is what MY DM would do, and let you have it but you couldnt enter both frenzy AND rage at the same time telling me that they are two different states of being... but hey thats just my DM maybe you can talk yours into it.
kalstrand 07-01-07, 02:10 PM	You can't take Barbarian 1 and Barbarian 1. The berserker ability in the PHB2 is not a serperate Barbarian class it just changes the rage abilitiy granted in the PHB for the berserk ability in the PHB2. The frenzy ability granted by the Frenzied Berserker or the Berserker class in Dieties and Demi-gods stacks with either of the rage abilities, but they probably won't stack with each other (I am away from books so I cant verify right now.).
Tiverine 07-01-07, 02:25 PM	the thing is simple... if you are taking a substitution level then it replaces the precedent class feature totally even if you take another level in that class. If your character get a level in one class and a level in an other class, and the first and second class give him similar powers, if they haven't the same name then stack otherwise they don't stack, so a frenzy doesn't stack with an other frenzy, and a rage doesn't stack with an other rage, but a rage stacks with a frenzy.
deviknyte 07-01-07, 08:21 PM	You can enter a frenzy from Frenzied Berserker stacks with rage. Says so on page 34 Complete Warrior. Battle fury from the Berserk PrC in the Deities and Demigods doesn't say it doesn't stack, so it does. Now become a Bear Warrior and call it a day. The only thing about taking Berserker Barbarian is that I'd let it stack with rage if you can find a prestige class that give rages. But I wouldn't let a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian and Rage stack, but that's just IMO, rule wise.. they'd stack. Non-lawful Good Berserker Barbarian, Fighter (you need the feats to Prc), Berserk, Frenzied Berserker, PrC that gives Rage, PrC that gives Rage that I'm trading for Whirling Frenzy, Bear Warrior (trading Frenzied Berserker bonuses for bear form) with the Righteous Wrath feat a wilding weapon and a lot of wilding clasp. This all stacks but, by RAW you can't have a PrC trade rage for Whirling Frenzy or have Righteous Wrath work on things other than rage. If it did you could get around the Battle Fury killing nearest creature (the whole time), the party, than objects (sucks for boat battles by the way). And if it did you could get around the Frenzy killing living creatures after foes are dead. Also note all rage feats and the extra rages granted by the bear warrior only apply to Rage and sometimes Frenzy. You also can only trade the stat bonuses from frenzy or rage for bear form. But I'd trade frenzy because it has the weakest stat bonuses. But to answer your question and not boast power. Rage, Battle Fury, Berserker Strength, Frenzy traded in for Bear Form, and Whirling Frenzy all stack all the while getting a haste attack and a melee rapid shot and buying a lot of wilding. Getting them all legally and having a lot of the abilities apply to simular/like abilities requires house ruling.
deviknyte 07-01-07, 08:35 PM	I'd like to add that I can make a much better version of this being a lawful good Sohei (Oriental Adventures 3.0). It also helps my will save if I can be the original Samurai (Oriental Adventures 3.0). 2Fighter 2Orig Sam versus 4Fighter. His str and con don't raise as high but he get the same amount of extra attacks and a better AC.
IRememberCecil 07-01-07, 08:36 PM	Battle fury from the Berserk PrC in the Deities and Demigods doesn't say it doesn't stack, so it does. Actually, that's not how D&D works. If it doesn't say it can or does, than it can't/doesn't. The Player's Handbook, for example, doesn't state that Barbarians can't cast 9th level spells. By your reasoning, Barbarians then become supremely overpowered, to the point of being broken. Anyways, the abilities both stack for a different reason: They both provide untyped bonuses and are separate sources. Remember, bonuses of the same type don't stack except if they're both untyped (i.e. not deflection, alchemical, profane, etc.) and come from different sources.
Johnny_Angel 07-01-07, 08:45 PM	If you really want a simple way of doing this, play a shifter barbarian; shift and rage at the same time.
Duergar 07-01-07, 09:21 PM	TYVM, cause the new books dont say anything about stacking, but variants are "new clases" so barbarian1 barbarian berserker 1, will have rage and berserk
Johnny_Angel 07-01-07, 09:43 PM	I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that variants are not considered new classes. I'm also about 80% sure that PHBII actually addresses this issue. I'll read through the copy I have and see if I can find where it says that; I'll post the page when I find it. If they were, I'd take 2 levels of the variant fighter and then take 2 levels of the regular fighter and end up with 4 bonus feats. Other books that address this issue are Unearthed Arcana and Complete Warrior (CW has a variant paladin and a variant ranger.) Now, there are some exceptions to this. One exception which comes to mind is that you could multiclass Druid with Urban Druid, but that's not even really an exception because they're actually two different classes.
Silverthumb128 07-01-07, 10:28 PM	Alright, how about this description: Rage is Kaioken, Frenzy is Super Saiyan 1. :D Goku says they stack...
Johnny_Angel 07-01-07, 11:01 PM	Rage from barbarian and frenzy from the various PrCs do stack; I'm still pretty sure you can't multiclass with only 1 class: barbarian and barbarian.
StruckingFuggle 07-01-07, 11:04 PM	I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that variants are not considered new classes. You could be, but you're not. TYVM, cause the new books dont say anything about stacking, but variants are "new clases" so barbarian1 barbarian berserker 1, will have rage and berserk You're wrong. See above. If you ue the "Berserker Frenzy" Variant from the PHBII, it's not a seperate class. It's more like the "Rage" class feature for a Barbarian gets replaced with something like a Rogue's "Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities)". You get your choice of either "Rage" or "Berserker Frenzy". At Level 1, and only at Level 1. And since you can't take Level 1 of Barbarian again, you can't also get Rage. Alternate Class Features are exactly that. Alternate class features for extant classes, not new classes - so they optionally replace something. It's a trade, not an addition. However, at the same time, any of the rage-esque-but-not-rage class features, regardless of name (unless it's "rage" and behaves like rage, or "berserker frenzy" and behaves like berserker frenzy - two classes granting rage don't give you "double rage") do stack. Seperate but similar abilities, providing unnamed bonuses basically always stack, unless explicitly noted (A Swordsage and Ninja's AC with a Monk, for example).
Salla 07-01-07, 11:08 PM	The PHBII Berserker Strength is a class feature substitution, not a separate class.
deviknyte 07-02-07, 08:49 AM	Sorry. First, I'm correcting myself. RAW Whirling Frenzy can't stack with Rage... RAW. Second, when I said that if it doesn't say it doesn't stack I was apply my D&D knowledge on others, I figured that everyone knew the no named boths stacks, bonuses from the same named ability, spell or power don't and bonuses of the same name don't (with a few exception). I was just applying that into the it doesn't say it doesn't stack. My bad. Third, can can't take a variant of a class than another variant or the core version. You can not take different versions of a class. So says the UnAr. But as in my demonstration, you can be a Barbarian with Berserker Strength, than PrC into a class with Rage.
StruckingFuggle 07-02-07, 12:18 PM	[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Sorry. First, I'm correcting myself. RAW Whirling Frenzy can't stack with Rage... RAW. Not just RAW. It's a lot harder than just "not RAW", because Whirling Frenzy is another alternate class feature for the Barbarian, replacing Rage - you could as much get WF and Rage as you could get Berserker Frenzy as Rage.