Berserker Strength and the Low Con Barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Berserker Strength and the Low Con Barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BadCatMan
06-28-06, 08:52 PM A Barbarian with Berserker Strength (PHB2) can now dump Constitution and Rage all day.

Rage no longer depends on it, and the less HP he has, the more likely he is to get close enough to the threshold to pull it off.

Take a Con 10 Barbarian. At an average of 6.5 HP per level, he ends up with ~136 HP at level 20. His Berserker threshold is 5 x his Barbarian level 20 = 100. If he takes 36 points of damage, he spends the next 100 raging to his heart's content.

At level 3: ~25 HP, threshold 15. 10 points of damage to set him off.

At level 1: 12 HP, threshold 5. 6 points of damage to set him off.

It sounds too easy to pull off, with no restrictions on uses per day or duration. This Barbarian might let himself get whacked early on, or refuse healing afterwards, then stay in rage-mode all through every battle. He could even cut himself, but that would earn him a smack over the head.

Now DR will offset the damage, and having less HP would mean the character is more likely to get knocked out or killed, but it still doesn't seem enough.

And just on a conceptual level, the low Con Barbarian just seems... wrong. :(

Am I seeing this wrong or worrying over nothing, or does this seem overpowered?

One question: would this stop at the end of battle? Because there's no mentioned stopping mechanism.
Teydyn
06-28-06, 08:56 PM You are worried about a fighter with 136HP at level 20? And Rage that lasts 5 rounds? He wont live to the end of these...
ninjarabbit
06-28-06, 09:24 PM Berserker strength is a red herring. Having your tank walk around with half his hps and a gimped con is a setup for an early grave.
LordPendragon
06-28-06, 09:29 PM For those low Con Barbarians to survive long enough to do their raging, they'd need constant healing by a good Cleric. 5 DR is nothing at high levels, and a raging Barb's AC penalties mean he's going to be taking some beats. If nothing else, it's a risky maneuver that requires teamwork to pull off. Also, a high Con Barb can rage for 10 rounds usually. Lots of encounters end before 10 rounds, so the occasions where you actually get to use the extra rage length may not even be worth the risk.
scienceman47
06-29-06, 01:50 AM You little anime kids and your F***ing journeys. Ya see this? This is where your journey ends!

Think of high HP with berserker strength extending the window you can stay in berserker strength safely. A low CON barb will enter BS (berserker strength) mode quicker than a high CON barb will. But a low CON barb will also exit berserker strength faster, by virtue of dying. Now a high con barb will enter later, but will stay longer and remain less at risk of accidental crit death. So high CON barbs just plain have more time to BS, and are much less likely to die BS'ing.
Feroz
06-29-06, 02:00 AM You little anime kids and your F***ing journeys. Ya see this? This is where your journey ends!

Think of high HP with berserker strength extending the window you can stay in berserker strength safely. A low CON barb will enter BS (berserker strength) mode quicker than a high CON barb will. But a low CON barb will also exit berserker strength faster, by virtue of dying. Now a high con barb will enter later, but will stay longer and remain less at risk of accidental crit death. So high CON barbs just plain have more time to BS, and are much less likely to die BS'ing.

No, the high con barb and the low con bar will stay in BS the same amount of time. It's based on being at less than 5HP/level, not on any derivative of their normal HP. So both the low con and high con Barbarians enter BS at 50HP at level 10. they both have 50 HP to lose in their BS, and they'll go through it in the same amount of time. the only thing that changes in the time is the amount of time before the bararian hits his BS. Once he hits it, they stay in it for the same amount of time, from 50 HP until dead.
Tony Vargas
06-29-06, 01:38 PM Barbarian Rage normally has a relatively small number of uses, but can be called on when desired - often at the start of a battle so as to end it quickly, for instance.

Berserker Strength, OTOH, has no theoretical limit, but only kicks in as you aproach death. Aproaching death has the obvious problem of well, dying when you're done aproaching it.

The low CON barb seems like a self-limitting problem. They spend more time raging, and less time alive, compared to a high-CON barbarian.

So, if Berserker STR is an option, in addition to seeing lots of half-orc and human barbarians, we'll see the occassional elf, as well. ;)
scienceman47
06-29-06, 05:48 PM No, the high con barb and the low con bar will stay in BS the same amount of time. It's based on being at less than 5HP/level, not on any derivative of their normal HP. So both the low con and high con Barbarians enter BS at 50HP at level 10. they both have 50 HP to lose in their BS, and they'll go through it in the same amount of time. the only thing that changes in the time is the amount of time before the bararian hits his BS. Once he hits it, they stay in it for the same amount of time, from 50 HP until dead.

Dammit I forgot. Well, actually yeah. Barbarians with BS will probably have lower than average CON. And higher than average DEX, I would assume, probably hit 18 DEX. So there ya go. 8 CON barb will still drop fast, and fail to do his job, and you still have that time where the barbarian was hitting but not with BS. So not game breakingly abusable.

Nothing else to it.
Nephlite
06-29-06, 05:58 PM For those low Con Barbarians to survive long enough to do their raging, they'd need constant healing by a good Cleric. 5 DR is nothing at high levels, and a raging Barb's AC penalties mean he's going to be taking some beats. If nothing else, it's a risky maneuver that requires teamwork to pull off. Also, a high Con Barb can rage for 10 rounds usually. Lots of encounters end before 10 rounds, so the occasions where you actually get to use the extra rage length may not even be worth the risk.
DR from Berserker + 5 from levels= DR 10/-. Remember Berserker DR stacks with all DR.

10/- isn't all mighty, but nothing to sneeze at.
ninjarabbit
06-29-06, 07:31 PM Lets not forget about the extend rage feat, between extend rage and having a decent-to-good con you should easily rage long enough to kill whatever needs to be killed.

Dumping your con also means dumping your fortitude save, basically having it go from great to above average making you more vunerable to save or die spells and effects.
BadCatMan
06-29-06, 10:08 PM Okay then, so nothing to worry about then. Thanks all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BadCatMan 06-28-06, 08:52 PM	A Barbarian with Berserker Strength (PHB2) can now dump Constitution and Rage all day. Rage no longer depends on it, and the less HP he has, the more likely he is to get close enough to the threshold to pull it off. Take a Con 10 Barbarian. At an average of 6.5 HP per level, he ends up with ~136 HP at level 20. His Berserker threshold is 5 x his Barbarian level 20 = 100. If he takes 36 points of damage, he spends the next 100 raging to his heart's content. At level 3: ~25 HP, threshold 15. 10 points of damage to set him off. At level 1: 12 HP, threshold 5. 6 points of damage to set him off. It sounds too easy to pull off, with no restrictions on uses per day or duration. This Barbarian might let himself get whacked early on, or refuse healing afterwards, then stay in rage-mode all through every battle. He could even cut himself, but that would earn him a smack over the head. Now DR will offset the damage, and having less HP would mean the character is more likely to get knocked out or killed, but it still doesn't seem enough. And just on a conceptual level, the low Con Barbarian just seems... wrong. :( Am I seeing this wrong or worrying over nothing, or does this seem overpowered? One question: would this stop at the end of battle? Because there's no mentioned stopping mechanism.
Teydyn 06-28-06, 08:56 PM	You are worried about a fighter with 136HP at level 20? And Rage that lasts 5 rounds? He wont live to the end of these...
ninjarabbit 06-28-06, 09:24 PM	Berserker strength is a red herring. Having your tank walk around with half his hps and a gimped con is a setup for an early grave.
LordPendragon 06-28-06, 09:29 PM	For those low Con Barbarians to survive long enough to do their raging, they'd need constant healing by a good Cleric. 5 DR is nothing at high levels, and a raging Barb's AC penalties mean he's going to be taking some beats. If nothing else, it's a risky maneuver that requires teamwork to pull off. Also, a high Con Barb can rage for 10 rounds usually. Lots of encounters end before 10 rounds, so the occasions where you actually get to use the extra rage length may not even be worth the risk.
scienceman47 06-29-06, 01:50 AM	You little anime kids and your F***ing journeys. Ya see this? This is where your journey ends! Think of high HP with berserker strength extending the window you can stay in berserker strength safely. A low CON barb will enter BS (berserker strength) mode quicker than a high CON barb will. But a low CON barb will also exit berserker strength faster, by virtue of dying. Now a high con barb will enter later, but will stay longer and remain less at risk of accidental crit death. So high CON barbs just plain have more time to BS, and are much less likely to die BS'ing.
Feroz 06-29-06, 02:00 AM	You little anime kids and your F***ing journeys. Ya see this? This is where your journey ends! Think of high HP with berserker strength extending the window you can stay in berserker strength safely. A low CON barb will enter BS (berserker strength) mode quicker than a high CON barb will. But a low CON barb will also exit berserker strength faster, by virtue of dying. Now a high con barb will enter later, but will stay longer and remain less at risk of accidental crit death. So high CON barbs just plain have more time to BS, and are much less likely to die BS'ing. No, the high con barb and the low con bar will stay in BS the same amount of time. It's based on being at less than 5HP/level, not on any derivative of their normal HP. So both the low con and high con Barbarians enter BS at 50HP at level 10. they both have 50 HP to lose in their BS, and they'll go through it in the same amount of time. the only thing that changes in the time is the amount of time before the bararian hits his BS. Once he hits it, they stay in it for the same amount of time, from 50 HP until dead.
Tony Vargas 06-29-06, 01:38 PM	Barbarian Rage normally has a relatively small number of uses, but can be called on when desired - often at the start of a battle so as to end it quickly, for instance. Berserker Strength, OTOH, has no theoretical limit, but only kicks in as you aproach death. Aproaching death has the obvious problem of well, dying when you're done aproaching it. The low CON barb seems like a self-limitting problem. They spend more time raging, and less time alive, compared to a high-CON barbarian. So, if Berserker STR is an option, in addition to seeing lots of half-orc and human barbarians, we'll see the occassional elf, as well. ;)
scienceman47 06-29-06, 05:48 PM	No, the high con barb and the low con bar will stay in BS the same amount of time. It's based on being at less than 5HP/level, not on any derivative of their normal HP. So both the low con and high con Barbarians enter BS at 50HP at level 10. they both have 50 HP to lose in their BS, and they'll go through it in the same amount of time. the only thing that changes in the time is the amount of time before the bararian hits his BS. Once he hits it, they stay in it for the same amount of time, from 50 HP until dead. Dammit I forgot. Well, actually yeah. Barbarians with BS will probably have lower than average CON. And higher than average DEX, I would assume, probably hit 18 DEX. So there ya go. 8 CON barb will still drop fast, and fail to do his job, and you still have that time where the barbarian was hitting but not with BS. So not game breakingly abusable. Nothing else to it.
Nephlite 06-29-06, 05:58 PM	For those low Con Barbarians to survive long enough to do their raging, they'd need constant healing by a good Cleric. 5 DR is nothing at high levels, and a raging Barb's AC penalties mean he's going to be taking some beats. If nothing else, it's a risky maneuver that requires teamwork to pull off. Also, a high Con Barb can rage for 10 rounds usually. Lots of encounters end before 10 rounds, so the occasions where you actually get to use the extra rage length may not even be worth the risk. DR from Berserker + 5 from levels= DR 10/-. Remember Berserker DR stacks with all DR. 10/- isn't all mighty, but nothing to sneeze at.
ninjarabbit 06-29-06, 07:31 PM	Lets not forget about the extend rage feat, between extend rage and having a decent-to-good con you should easily rage long enough to kill whatever needs to be killed. Dumping your con also means dumping your fortitude save, basically having it go from great to above average making you more vunerable to save or die spells and effects.
BadCatMan 06-29-06, 10:08 PM	Okay then, so nothing to worry about then. Thanks all.