Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 12-06-06, 02:32 AM	evening all, our game as of late has been entirely delayed due to exams and other such things, and i was wondering since my hexblade is about to gain her 9th level, which one of the three new characters released in the ToB would make the most effective dip? I've recently been introduced to them and am already a big fan, since we play in a small group and any tactical help (read: big damage) is greatly appreciated. they all seem to excell in their own arenas, but i was curious as to what class would best suit a mostly-frontline hexblade. i like the crusader because that bit of extra healing looks handy, but they seem to have an awkward 'recover' mechanism in play. swordsage seems fun, since it'd give the most new powers and a healthy dose of skills and play on non-strength scores. finally, warblade looks interesting, because i'd be able to output some reall BIG damage. keep in mind this is all from an initial glance and by no means am i an optimization profession (well duh). thanks in advance.
Iarmeister 12-06-06, 02:41 AM	I think the Sword Sage is a great level 1 dip. Pros: Quick to Act nets you an additional +1 to your initiative and it stacks with Improved Initiative. You choose one discipline, and then you get the feat weapon focus for all of it's preferred weapons list. You get the more skill points/level than either the Crusader or the Warblade. And, you also get the most Maneuvers Known/Readied from the largest selection of disciplines between the other two ToB base classes. Cons: At level one Swordsage you get a +0 BAB. Level 1 Swordsage also gets +0 For SV, but gets +2 to Ref and Will (which may not be a bad thing since you are playing a Fighter variant). Unless you have the Adaptive Style feat, it takes a full-round action to recover a single maneuver during combat. And, really...that's all I can think of as being a 'CON' against the Swordsage.
Cilador 12-06-06, 03:09 AM	While I have played both classes and I love both I will also have to vote for the swordsage. The pros out way the cons espically with a one level dip, and I also really recommend taking adaptive style as your ninth level feat it is a must for swordsages. Also if you can stand taking 2 levels as the swordsage you will gain the AC bonus that I think is the coolest thing ever, since it stacks with armor.
saidin0111 12-06-06, 03:21 AM	yes, the wis bonus to ac that stacks with light armor is a must if you are going two dip levels, of course that requires that you have a wis bonus of 2 or 3 to be useful
Belgian Waffle 12-06-06, 07:51 AM	Iarmeister pretty much said what I was going to say. So, yeah.
Norhg 12-06-06, 08:50 AM	One level of Warblade, stance Leading the Charge then White Raven Tactics That's where the real ultimate power is at, I tell you :rolleyes: You could do it all at level 9 too What's so good about doing the Warblade Way? Their method for renewing Maneuvers.
Iarmeister 12-06-06, 11:42 AM	One level of Warblade, stance Leading the Charge then White Raven Tactics That's where the real ultimate power is at, I tell you :rolleyes: You could do it all at level 9 too What's so good about doing the Warblade Way? Their method for renewing Maneuvers. The Warblade's method of renewing maneuvers is pretty awesome, I'll give you that. But at level 1? I think the flexibility of the Swordsage yields better results overall.
Norhg 12-06-06, 03:33 PM	The Warblade's method of renewing maneuvers is pretty awesome, I'll give you that. But at level 1? I think the flexibility of the Swordsage yields better results overall. I'm not talking flexibility or anything. I'm talking being able to get an extra full-attack every round That's what White Raven Tactics merits you when you one level dip into warblade at level 9
Buccaneer 12-06-06, 03:59 PM	I'm not talking flexibility or anything. I'm talking being able to get an extra full-attack every round That's what White Raven Tactics merits you when you one level dip into warblade at level 9 Can you use that one on yourself? I didnt think the user himself was considered an "ally" for the purposes of that manuever?
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-06-06, 04:36 PM	Can you use that one on yourself? I didnt think the user himself was considered an "ally" for the purposes of that manuever? It is up to your interpretation of ally. My group wouldn't read it that way. I also vote for swordsage btw.
Iarmeister 12-06-06, 04:41 PM	Can you use that one on yourself? I didnt think the user himself was considered an "ally" for the purposes of that manuever? He/She's not. Sorry, didn't mean to make a blanket statement. However, I think most DM's would rule that you are not include yourself as an 'ally'. In fact, the specific reading says you 'select an ally within range (10ft)'. Under the target descriptor it says: One ally. Not self. So, WRT is great for buffing an ally, but not so great if you are going solo, or find yourself outside of 10ft from an ally.
Norhg 12-06-06, 05:00 PM	Can you use that one on yourself? I didnt think the user himself was considered an "ally" for the purposes of that manuever? Supposedly, customer support has ruled that you are your own ally for the purposes of this maneuver That would supposedly enable you to act twice as often as others, yes
Seerow 12-06-06, 05:02 PM	No suggestions of Crusader makes me sad.
Iarmeister 12-06-06, 06:50 PM	Supposedly, customer support has ruled that you are your own ally for the purposes of this maneuver That would supposedly enable you to act twice as often as others, yes Didn't see it. Can you show me the link?? Not saying you are wrong, but that is a huge ruling, and I don't want to rule wrong if it ever comes up in my own campaign.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-06-06, 08:20 PM	Generally, you are an ally of yourself for all effects that affect allies. Exceptions are specifically noted, and apparently that maneuver doesn't have the exception. Either way, it isn't really a huge problem (it's a bit better than a one-round, one-person Haste) by itself to be able to use it on yourself. The problem comes when you combine it with the rather weird interpretation of the Crusader's refresh method.
Grimmsfeld 12-06-06, 08:38 PM	and I also really recommend taking adaptive style as your ninth level feat it is a must for swordsages.Hurray for burning a feat to make your 1 level dip work efficiently. That's like saying that you need to take psionic meditation if you plan on dipping one level of psion, but that's just my opinion...anyway, I'd like to actually know what your ability scores are before I assume to know what would work best for you. Since you're playing a hexblade already, we can assume there's been a premium placed on charisma. Second, I'll venture to guess that since none of the hexblade's powers (not even skills) are based off wisdom, and that the Hex actually has the good Will save progression, wisdom wasn't really a high priority. If you do go into Swordsage, avoid anything that allows a save, if that's the case. If you really want to pump out big numbers repeatedly, I really would suggest the Crusader. Increases your BAB by another point compared to the Swordsage, has a d10 HD, a self buffing/damage management ability, increases one of your weak saves, and does not need to stop to refresh maneuvers. Suggested maneuvers would be Mountain Hammer, Bone Crusher, Leading The Attack, White Raven Tactics, and the fifth one...do whatever you want. As far as stances go, I really couldn't argue anything over Martial Spirit. Spot healing is nice, even if it's just two points. With the Warblade, it's really more of the same as the Crusader. Base Attack up, fortitude save up, reflex save goes up (providing you've got at least +1 int.) As for selecting maneuvers, you've got more disciplines to choose from than the crusader, but less maneuvers able to be readied, and you need to take time out every couple of rounds to refresh your maneuvers as part of an attack. Iron Heart is a good discipline, with a stance that grants +1d6 damage on melee damage rolls at the expense to -2AC. The Diamond Mind, which you could also pick from if you were a swordsage, has a pretty sexy maneuver, too, if you've already got a background in casting; Insightful Strike, which replaces your weapon damage roll with a concentration check. At your level, that should be at least 1d20+12.
xpochian 12-06-06, 10:26 PM	Wow! I'm very impressed with all of the feedback from everyone. I can't wait till the weekend when I can tear into my books and follow up all the questions that have been rattling around my head! ...anyway, I'd like to actually know what your ability scores are before I assume to know what would work best for you. Here is a quick rundown of my character. Str 14 (16 with gloves) Int 12 Dex 12 Wis 10 Con 12 Cha 18 (20 with bustier [she doesn't 'do' capes]) My current battle plan is to use a curse as a free action on my foe, then power attack with my bastard sword while swifting that karmic spell which causes exhaustion in people meleeing you. Basically, my curse reduces someone's effectiveness against me, and in turn I can crank out a decent amount of damage and have satisfaction if people hit me, they're going to have even worse stats: bye bye str and dex! Wis unfortunately was my dump stat, everything being poured into Cha. By the by, is there a quick and easy way to somehow have my Cha turn into an AC enhancing bonus? I'm already loving the 'Cha-to-magical-saves' thing I've got going on. Also, very appreciative of any more suggestions, based on the above information.
Grimmsfeld 12-06-06, 10:46 PM	Arcane Duelist. Check in the archives. Gives Cha to AC. It's a little heavy on the prerequisites, but it can be found here... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a
SilentOne 12-06-06, 10:51 PM	Definately go for Crusader. You get 5 maneuvers, 5 readied (nothing wasted), awesome powers (you go into it with 5th initiator level, so you can learn 1st through 3rd maneuvers, which means you can get thinks like Revitalizing Strike, Crusader's Strike, Martial Spirit, Foehammer, and Mountain Hammer, and...that other one. I forget, but those 5 alone are awesome (1's a stance). Plus, no action required to get back your maneuvers. Furious counterstrike is just plain awesome. Definately go crusader.
xpochian 12-06-06, 11:12 PM	I suppose here comes the obligatory 'how a crusader recovers powers' question: Based on what I could recall, they start the fight with all of their powers 'used up', and every round the DM randomly determines that two are restored, to 'ready' status. And this keeps happening until I eventually have all of them 'ready', unless I keep using a power every round. Assuming my understanding is correct, couldn't a bad 'randomization' result in me having to wait like 5 rounds until I eventually get the power I really want to use? I'm not from a position of experience to say it, but I feel the swordsage and warblade have easier to use recovery methods. Of course, I could be dead wrong.
Grimmsfeld 12-06-06, 11:29 PM	I personally chose to ignore the questionable CustServ ruling on the recovery mechanic, and run it exactly as written. When you run out of withheld maneuvers, and it's time for another one to be granted, your entire withheld/granted set restarts. Thus, even though it's randomized, you'd never have to wait more than three rounds for a particular readied maneuver to be available, since you always have three withheld, at the start of a rotation.
Cilador 12-07-06, 12:37 AM	The suggestion of taking adaptive style was just my opinon and it turns the swordsages refresh method into a plausable way to do it. Also as for white raven tactics if you read the flavor text it talks about effecting an ally not yourself, and another problem with white raven maneuvers is that they work best when you have other melee fighters in the group. Now I don't know about the rest of you but in my groups we usually only have one person trying to go melee with big bad boss monster (the best time to use alot of WT manuevers) so the pluses to charging and melee damage that the WT maneuvers grant your allies are wasted. Now this is only for my group, in which I am usually the only melee fighter.
Norhg 12-07-06, 09:37 AM	Didn't see it. Can you show me the link?? Not saying you are wrong, but that is a huge ruling, and I don't want to rule wrong if it ever comes up in my own campaign. Oh, I don't know. But I sent them the question to see what I answer I can get. I'll post here about it
Grimmsfeld 12-07-06, 11:37 PM	Also as for white raven tactics if you read the flavor text it talks about effecting an ally not yourself, and another problem with white raven maneuvers is that they work best when you have other melee fighters in the group.IIRC, Leading the Attack(Not to be confused with Leading the charge) grants a bonus on melee and ranged attacks (read; ranged touch attacks, ie, spells,) so it really depends on group composition. And either way you go on WRT, it's beneficial to the group. Remember, making the rest of the party stronger, by extension, makes you stronger (or at least more valuable to the group.) Cherry-pick the maneuvers that are useful in all situations, not the ones that only assist melee combatants.
Sphyre 12-08-06, 01:25 AM	i like the crusader because that bit of extra healing looks handy, but they seem to have an awkward 'recover' mechanism in play. According to WotC's Customer Service, Crusaders actually have the strongest recovery method, esspecially when you get the feat "Extra Granted Maneuver" Basically, if you don't know what it is, they say that when it's time to recover (you have no withheld maneuvers) you recover your expended maneuvers, keep your current readied maneuvers, and then you are granted how many maneuvers you were granted at the beginning of the encounter. Basically this means, if, in your first 3 rounds, you use less than or equal to the amount you'll be granted in the 4th round from auto-refreshing, you essentially gain access to all of them, every round, automatically always refreshing what you just used. Yep, it's a screwy mechanic, and at first I thought it was the worst, but after analysis, and the extra granted maneuver feat, it's easily the best. The warblade is next, being able to attack or fullround attack in a round that he refreshes, while the sword sage has the worst (but the least need to) and Adaptive style is in his favor, to recover all of them at once, rather than once as a full-round action. So if you like the Crusader, go ahead, it's strong, stronger than it first looks because it's recover mechanic is free.
xpochian 12-08-06, 03:57 AM	well then. I think i'm about ready to take the crusader plunge next time we play. one thing though, aren't they zealots and completely batshit-insano about their devotion to their god(ess)? I would not want to have to start screaming and yelling at people about how awesome tymora is all the time. unless i'm reading that wrong. i would see a hexblade 8 being extremely selfish, but I suppose since my character venerates Tymora's luck so much, that maybe she believes her manipulation of luck is divine?
Chimaera2000 12-08-06, 04:23 AM	Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, many of which have been discussed already. I think that what your choice comes down to is which particular maneuvers appeal to you most. For example, if Diamond Mind appeals to you, then Crusader is a poor choice, but it's a great choice if you want Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Each of the classes seems roughly balanced in terms on base mechanics (Hit Die, saves, special abilities et al), so I'd say pick which best fits your character concept and provides you with the maneuvers that you want. Personally, though, I'd vote for crusader. I love each of the Tome of Battle base classes, but the crusader has more maneuvers and better special abilities at level one than the warblade and has full base attack bonus and a better recovery mechanic compared to the swordsage. Plus, if you find out that you absolutely love the crusader, you can take another level in order to add your Charisma to your Will saves and gain a stance that's higher than 1st level (Customer Service stated that you can only select 1st-level stances with your first level in a martial adept class). Being able to heal yourself is always nice, too. As a side note, did you take the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) for your hexblade's curse? Having played a hexblade myself, that feat is very nice. In your case, it also compensates for your multiclassing.
Sphyre 12-08-06, 04:44 AM	well then. I think i'm about ready to take the crusader plunge next time we play. one thing though, aren't they zealots and completely *******-insano about their devotion to their god(ess)? I would not want to have to start screaming and yelling at people about how awesome tymora is all the time. unless i'm reading that wrong. i would see a hexblade 8 being extremely selfish, but I suppose since my character venerates Tymora's luck so much, that maybe she believes her manipulation of luck is divine? Remember that your character is a character first and a character class second. Esspecially because your character has just started in the class. Your character would be expanding his/her mind in the martial prowess of those who devote their way, rather than being a complete heretic. Play your character how you envision it, not how someone tells you you should play it.
Pyke_Moonshadow 12-08-06, 07:55 AM	Remember that your character is a character first and a character class second. Esspecially because your character has just started in the class. Your character would be expanding his/her mind in the martial prowess of those who devote their way, rather than being a complete heretic. Play your character how you envision it, not how someone tells you you should play it. While I agree with you, everyone should play how they want, a religious based class is a religious based class. If I was running a character that had not shown himself to be extremely devoute than I would not take levels in a class that gains its abilities from a god.
Buccaneer 12-08-06, 01:21 PM	Arcane Duelist. Check in the archives. Gives Cha to AC. It's a little heavy on the prerequisites, but it can be found here... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a I like that class quite a bit. especially for this ability: Dexterous Attack (Ex): Because the arcane duelist values successful hits over actual damage dealt, she can subtract damage from her chosen melee weapon's potential damage and add the same amount to her attack bonus. However, the weapon must do a minimum 1 point of damage. For example, the arcane duelist who wields a rapier as her chosen weapon can subtract up to 5 points from the damage, since the rapier has a damage potential of 6 points, and add that to her attack bonus. If she were wielding a +3 rapier, she could subtract up to 8 points from damage, since the weapon has a damage potential of 9 points, and add that to her attack bonus. The arcane duelist declares this power before rolling her attack, and the amount subtracted cannot exceed her base attack bonus. Think about combining that with the feat Stormguard warrior and the maneuvers avalanche of blades and raging Mongoose. Lets say a Duskblade1/Arcane Duelist 3/Warblade X build. Probably can get acess to Avalanche of Blades and Raging Mongoose around level 17 or so. Lets say your using a +3 Flaming Rapier. Now subtract 14 (your BAB) from damage and add that to your bonus to hit. Now use the Combat Rhythm option of Stormguard Warrior and activate Avalanche of Blades. You can now make melee touch attacks against an oppenet with a bonus of 31+your strength bonus and any other modifiers that might apply. After the first attack you can make a subsequent one at a -4 penalty and keep dooing that until you miss. Around 10 subsequent attacks shouldnt be to hard I think. Thats +50 damage to every attack you make in the next round. Next round activate Raging Mongoose and hit 5 times for a total of 250+10d6+(strength bonus (and whatever else applies)x5)+15 damage. Not too shabby for a 1 handed weapon user. (and theres no reason it couldnt be combined with a greatsword+powerattack or something if you wanted to) Decent melee power and some nice class flavor
Sphyre 12-08-06, 06:22 PM	While I agree with you, everyone should play how they want, a religious based class is a religious based class. If I was running a character that had not shown himself to be extremely devoute than I would not take levels in a class that gains its abilities from a god. But just because you're not extremely devout, doesn't mean that you don't share the same principles or that you aren't devout. Esspecially if it's just a one level dip. It would show that the character has those ideals, but it certainly doesn't make him a zealot. In fact, simply having a religious class doesn't require you to have an excessive overbearing paladin zeal, in fact a paladin's zeal may not even make itself manifest until presented with a situation where justice or wrongdoing was at hand. He may very well happily be merry with his friends in the tavern listening to bard stories, enjoying the good that there is the world until he gets another calling of evil to be smitten. Although religious characters often are blinded by their faith, as people do today, that does not in fact mean that all are, in either case. Thus I still believe that your character is a character first, before his class.
xpochian 12-08-06, 06:36 PM	As a side note, did you take the Ability Focus feat (Monster Manual) for your hexblade's curse? I have an noticed a large bump in the number of people who've failed their saves. I recall I took it after a particularly annoying fight where an OGRE of all things avoided both of my hexblade's curses. DC 17 and the bastard (apparently) rolled a 17, and then a 19. I really wish it was a save for half, as I think that'd give Hexblades a little more 'street cred' Also, as for how I plan on playing her, sometimes luck couldn't be better: last fight before level up, I managed to get myself down to 0 hp, and used my last action to power attack an half-red draconic orc who'd fumbled up his AoO on me, killing him. In game purposes, the DM declared that even though I was at 0 hp, I had taken a severe blow that "should've" killed my character. Being slightly superstitious to begin with, and having an intimate relationship with luck and chance, my character felt that this was Tymora's blessing made real and that Tymora had chosen to spare her life. Roll through a few weeks and a few very Joan of Arc type moments, and I'm now Hexblade 8 / Crusader 1. Customer Service stated that you can only select 1st-level stances with your first level in a martial adept class. You're kidding. Well then, time to re-write most of my abilities, anyone have a good list of 1st level powers for a Crusader? Being able to heal yourself is always nice, too. And other members of the group too. Our only other 'healer' is the warlock who merely dipped into Cleric for the domains/healing and as a pre-req for some kinda divinely-inspired warlock-thingy. Pardon my moronic. Heh.
Norhg 12-08-06, 07:36 PM	Didn't see it. Can you show me the link?? Not saying you are wrong, but that is a huge ruling, and I don't want to rule wrong if it ever comes up in my own campaign.Oh, I don't know. But I sent them the question to see what I answer I can get. I'll post here about it Therefore: Pg. 94, who is treated as an Ally for the purposes of White Raven Tactics? Anyone I deem fit? My own self? You count as your own ally. You can consider anyone you want to be an ally when it is time to make that choice. So there you have it! Seems like you can decide that aren't your own ally though :p Regardless, they say that you can use WRT on yourself.
Chimaera2000 12-08-06, 08:43 PM	Customer Service stated that you can only select 1st-level stances with your first level in a martial adept class. You're kidding. Well then, time to re-write most of my abilities, anyone have a good list of 1st level powers for a Crusader? Note that's it's only stances that have to be 1st-level with your first level of crusader. The maneuvers that you can select are determined by your inititiator level. In your case, you'll have an initiator level of five (one level of crusader plus 1/2 of your other levels), which means that you can select up to third-level maneuvers.
xpochian 12-09-06, 12:34 AM	I actually just air-pumped a YES! as I read that, can't wait to test out these new powers. It's going to be very, very sweet.
Belgian Waffle 12-09-06, 12:58 AM	Customer Service stated that you can only select 1st-level stances with your first level in a martial adept class. This is kind of silly. Is the process for selecting stances That different from selecting maneuvers? I didn't think so... :confused:
Vaelan 12-09-06, 01:07 AM	Generally, you are an ally of yourself for all effects that affect allies. Exceptions are specifically noted, and apparently that maneuver doesn't have the exception. The general rule is that you are not an ally. Effects that affect allies and yourself explicitly state that they affect you as well. This also fits with the glossary entry for ally which specifies that an ally is another character.
Grimmsfeld 12-09-06, 01:53 AM	This is kind of silly. Is the process for selecting stances That different from selecting maneuvers? I didn't think so... That's actually a pretty basic interpretation of the RAW. Under "Stances Known" for each martial adept class, it specifically says "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from X-discplines." The "Maneuvers Known" section for each class doesn't have the restriction on level.
Norhg 12-09-06, 08:15 AM	The general rule is that you are not an ally. Effects that affect allies and yourself explicitly state that they affect you as well. To give you two examples when ally is includes yourself, I'll first give you the Inspire Courage ability in which this is passingly stated: Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. Then there is bless which states: Bless fills your allies with courage. Each ally gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and on saving throws against fear effects. This would include the caster. Seemingly it is apparent that ally would include the caster/user at least for area effects. For single target effects Inspire Competence would set precadence. Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The bard must also be able to see the ally. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear the bard’s music. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as the bard concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. A bard can’t inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.For these abilities, it seems like the text has to specifically exclude the own character if it isn't an elegible target. Though I must say that in an ability, Ally only makes sense when applied to abilities that affect multiple targets. When affecting single targets "target: one creature" would be more intuitive.