best archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

best archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bolomang
08-28-07, 05:03 AM i was wondering, what is better, without spells or magic items, a ranger focusing on ranged attacks, or a fighter focusing on ranged attacks?

ps: if you use abbreviations, please put them in parentheses (like this) the first time u use them...
Lady_Dragon
08-28-07, 05:54 AM I'm going to have to go with Fighter here. The key to being a really effective archer is the ranged feats. The fighter has feats in spades, and even though the ranger gets a few of these for free, the fighter can get these and more, PLUS the weapon focus feats with shortbow or longbow to make it even nastier. Combining this with a good strength and dexterity and a composite bow with a strength modifier, and you have yourself a nasty archer.
dknight100
08-28-07, 06:05 AM Without spells, the fighter easily. With spells and class features taken into account... ranger comes out ahead. Fighters get feats, but rangers get magic, and specifically entangle, which is nifty as you can then keep people at range while you shoot them, unlike the fighter.

One thing to keep in mind that as long as your to hit is alright, extra damage dice is better than straight modifiers to your bow (i.e. if you can take flaming/shocking/icy/sonic weapon buffs vs +2 or greater)
goawayugh
08-28-07, 07:46 AM If you're just focusing on attack/damage output without magic, nothing will ever beat a Fighter. Although Ranger is a MUCH better class to play.
Argaud
08-28-07, 09:50 AM Without spells, the fighter easily. With spells and class features taken into account... ranger comes out ahead. Fighters get feats, but rangers get magic, and specifically entangle, which is nifty as you can then keep people at range while you shoot them, unlike the fighter.

One thing to keep in mind that as long as your to hit is alright, extra damage dice is better than straight modifiers to your bow (i.e. if you can take flaming/shocking/icy/sonic weapon buffs vs +2 or greater)
Please, explain me how the ranger can beat the +4 to hit and +6 to damage from each arrow that the fighter gets from feats. Not to mention the fighter has Improved Rapid Shot at level 6.

As for the bow, all those energy enhancements become obsolete at high level because everybody has energy resistance. Also, DR becomes a huge problem since a character generally cannot Power Attack with arrows (exception: Peerless Archer).

The best enhencements for bows are probably Split (Champions of Ruin) that doubles the number of arrows fired, and Force (Magic Items Compendium) that turns the arrows into force attacks, which get through all DR (even epic).
goawayugh
08-28-07, 10:20 AM Yes, force is the best bow enhancement there is.
Fallenangel359
08-28-07, 11:01 AM A multiclass between the 2 is the best.

Now if you want absolute best archer, I'd go artificer 4, warmage 6, force missile mage 5, ardent savant 5, not nessessarily in that order.

Spellstoring bolts with self reloading quickloading light crossbows, with twf.

Just put lots of highpowered magic missiles in there, for rediculous missile spam.

The best archer sniper would be a fighter, with the energybow.
dknight100
08-28-07, 05:11 PM Please, explain me how the ranger can beat the +4 to hit and +6 to damage from each arrow that the fighter gets from feats. Not to mention the fighter has Improved Rapid Shot at level 6.
Because even though the poster asked about without spells and such, thats similar to saying, whats better: cleric with no items or a monk with no items?

Without spells and the rest of their class features, the fighter is better. However, with class features, the ranger pulls ahead - he has increased versatility from his casting ability - including keeping people at range, such as entangle, snare, and water walk. Keeping someone entirely away from you is always better than a bit more damage per shot.

As for the bow, all those energy enhancements become obsolete at high level because everybody has energy resistance. Also, DR becomes a huge problem since a character generally cannot Power Attack with arrows (exception: Peerless Archer).
Its pretty much because you can't power attack that the extra damage dice are better - with decent bab and dex, you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, and while many monsters have energy resists, its most certainly not all of them, and they don't have resistance to all energy. If you don't take fire, you're pretty much safe, and if you do take fire, just make sure you take some other things - unless your DM has you fighting fire types all the time, it will still pay itself off.

::EDIT:: Enchanting energy dice onto your weapon instead of to hit is similar to enchanting damage - you trade off 1 to hit, and a definite 1 to damage, in exchange for 3.5 average damage, with a range of 1-6 damage.

I also realised i didn't get around to answering your DR point. This doesn't actually matter that the target has DR. If it has DR/magic, then the bow gets through (under any reading of the rules, as to have energy dice added to it, the weapon must be +1 first). If it has DR/piercing, then bow is just as stuffed, regardless of core enchants (see next section)

The best enhencements for bows are probably Split (Champions of Ruin) that doubles the number of arrows fired, and Force (Magic Items Compendium) that turns the arrows into force attacks, which get through all DR (even epic).
Those are indeed awesome enhancements to have - i didn't reference them because i was just refering to core material as its the only thing we can be sure people have. For example, if i include non core, using spells the ranger becomes an even better archer, just from including the Complete Adventurer expanded spell lists.
The_Shaman
08-28-07, 06:41 PM i was wondering, what is better, without spells or magic items, a ranger focusing on ranged attacks, or a fighter focusing on ranged attacks?

ps: if you use abbreviations, please put them in parentheses (like this) the first time u use them...

Under these conditions, probably fighter, but not by much. Without the ranger's spot, hide and MS as class skills, the fighter is a superior archer... but only against enemies s/he can see, and s/he leaves him/herself much more open to retaliation. Should I presume that since you say no spells, you are using any of the spellless ranger variants? Because a ranger with splitting arrow and a lesser rod of empowering can do some pretty nasty tricks imo.
Nightshade
08-28-07, 06:42 PM On a battle field, the fighter generally has a better to hit and damage with his arrows plus the feats to max out the feat tree and so is better. UNLESS... the monster or humanoid you're fighting is one of the Ranger Favored Enemies. Then the Ranger almost pulls even.

BUT... the Ranger has skills in move silently, spot, and spells. Those really really make you a better archer than the fighter because you're always dealing with circumstances where those are handy.

Personally, I'd go Ranger if I was going archery but maybe dip into fighter for 2 feats.
Argaud
08-28-07, 06:44 PM Because even though the poster asked about without spells and such, thats similar to saying, whats better: cleric with no items or a monk with no items?

Without spells and the rest of their class features, the fighter is better. However, with class features, the ranger pulls ahead - he has increased versatility from his casting ability - including keeping people at range, such as entangle, snare, and water walk. Keeping someone entirely away from you is always better than a bit more damage per shot.
Generally the ranger spells are weak. They come late and in small doses, and although there is a jewel or two out there (usually in obscure supplements like Champions of Ruin) they hardly make the ranger a better archer, since they are momentaneous buffs that last just one round (although swift spells are nice) or take one action, which means the fighter has already caused considerable damage while the ranger buffed.

Your example of good spells, for instance, is somewhat lacking. Entangle only works outdoors, with plenty vegetation around, and most fights in D&D take place indoors, in dungeons or cities. Snare takes 3 rounds to cast. Water Walk means the party is fighting on water, how often does that happen? Not to mention the ranger gets that at level 11 the earliest, when magical flight is already very common for all party members.

And then you have all the rest of the ranger class abilities. Frankly, most are a joke. The combat styles gives 3 decent feats, so it is good. Favored enemy depends on the DM being nice to the ranger. Endurance was a joke before PH2, now it is almost good because it is the prereq of Steadfast Determination, a feat that is pure gold for ranger and fighters. Track become obsolete after level 5-6, because magic gives so much better options to track people. Woodland stride is a joke as class ability, it basically does nothing. Camouflage and HiPS are NPC abilities, in the typical party environment they have almost no use (yes, yes, in a campaign revolving around scouting and sneaking they are great, but a campaign's specifics can make any class utterly awesome). Basically the bulk of the ranger class abilities are equvalent to very weak feats that nobody would take if they weren't free. Even Evasion is iffy, what would you take with a warrior character if given a choice: Evasion or Power Attack? Evasion or Combat Reflexes? Saying class abilities are better than feats is pretty dumb. Some class abilities are very good, but many, if not most, are colorful crap.
Its pretty much because you can't power attack that the extra damage dice are better - with decent bab and dex, you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, and while many monsters have energy resists, its most certainly not all of them, and they don't have resistance to all energy. If you don't take fire, you're pretty much safe, and if you do take fire, just make sure you take some other things - unless your DM has you fighting fire types all the time, it will still pay itself off.
It is true that a full bab class will almost always hit with the first attack. But archers can generally full attack each and every round, so hitting with the second, third and even fourth attack is possible, particularly with the very high to hit fighters can achieve. Moreover the +6 to damage from feats is nothing to scoff at because arrows generally do little damage (but if you hit with a lot of them every round, all is good).

Energy resists are incredibly common after level 10. It is really annoying. Just check the encounter lists :(
I also realised i didn't get around to answering your DR point. This doesn't actually matter that the target has DR. If it has DR/magic, then the bow gets through (under any reading of the rules, as to have energy dice added to it, the weapon must be +1 first). If it has DR/piercing, then bow is just as stuffed, regardless of core enchants (see next section)
The main problem with DR is the DR/alignment, which archers can't punch through easily because they can't power attack.
Treantmonklvl20
08-28-07, 06:53 PM A multiclass between the two is better than either single classed. (you will maintain hide/sneak skills - can pick up almost every ranged feat easy).

Take a level of Ranger first though - for the frontloading.

You should also exit into one of the Archery-based PrC's ASAP. OBI, Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper - they are all better at archery than either of these classes are.
dknight100
08-28-07, 07:37 PM Basically the bulk of the ranger class abilities are equvalent to very weak feats that nobody would take if they weren't free. Even Evasion is iffy, what would you take with a warrior character if given a choice: Evasion or Power Attack? Evasion or Combat Reflexes? Saying class abilities are better than feats is pretty dumb. Some class abilities are very good, but many, if not most, are colorful crap.
I'll post more on the spells when i get back to my apartment, as i have all my books on me then, rather than just whats on the SRD. However, i do recall quite a few spells in the complete adventurer that would definitely push the ranger far ahead as an archer, regardless on your views of utility spells.

However, in response to this: While i despise favoured enemy, its a stupid class features that only useful if the DM is catering to your ranger, and woodland stride is really only good if your DM is having someone hunt your ranger (and not the rest of the party, because they don't have woodland stride) HIPS and Evasion are very, very good features. With HIPS, you can literally disappear and get into a new position, and thats always handy, and evasion, well, is awesome. Once the fighter has 250lbs of gold to spare (25,000GP) he can get a ring of evasion though, but thats a ranger can spend that on other things.

Most class features are not just flavorful crap - overall there is nothing stopping the ranger from also taking feats, such as power attack (even though neither can do it with the bow without PrCs) while there is something stopping the fighter from casting spells, hiding in plain sight, nimbling evading damage on reflex saves and having an animal companion - he's not a ranger.
Argaud
08-28-07, 07:53 PM Most class features are not just flavorful crap - overall there is nothing stopping the ranger from also taking feats, such as power attack (even though neither can do it with the bow without PrCs) while there is something stopping the fighter from casting spells, hiding in plain sight, nimbling evading damage on reflex saves and having an animal companion - he's not a ranger.
But many of those features are easily duplicated by low level spells and cheap magic items. HiPS: Potion of Invisibility. Evasion? There is a ring (not that it is very useful for a weak ref save class, but fighters have the hp needed to fail ref saves). Companion? It is a weak pet, you can get a better one with the Wild Cohort feat, not to mention Leadership, if you really need it. (Not that I'd include the companion among the "colorful/flavor crap", mind you, a free mount, even a weak one, is a good thing).
dknight100
08-28-07, 08:12 PM in those cases, the ring is REALLY not cheap, requiring 25,000 gp - more than a +3 weapon (18,000gp). Invisibility? 300gp a drink (though its better than HIPS). The companion isn't better than the druid one, but it isn't weak, and investing in leadership are things that take more feats, that don't effectively replicate it either. I don't think that i have the book wild cohort is from, so i can't comment, but it sounds like it modifies leadership?

If i have time, i might post an example ranger archer when i get back to my apartment, and other people can put up theirs and equivalent fighters. Shall we say 10th level, 28 point buy, no item worth more than 1/3 of their total Wealth by level?
Argaud
08-28-07, 08:52 PM in those cases, the ring is REALLY not cheap, requiring 25,000 gp - more than a +3 weapon (18,000gp). Invisibility? 300gp a drink (though its better than HIPS). The companion isn't better than the druid one, but it isn't weak, and investing in leadership are things that take more feats, that don't effectively replicate it either. I don't think that i have the book wild cohort is from, so i can't comment, but it sounds like it modifies leadership?
The Wild Cohort is in a web enhancement. It is an interesting feat, not as powerful and problematic as Leadership. Here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a
If i have time, i might post an example ranger archer when i get back to my apartment, and other people can put up theirs and equivalent fighters. Shall we say 10th level, 28 point buy, no item worth more than 1/3 of their total Wealth by level?
I would like to keep it to 25 points or the elite array, that is what the game assumes for PCs.

I will post a fighter if you want, but I already suspect what is going to be the result. The bottom line: the fighter shots better, the ranger has great skills. None can be said to be clearly better because it depends on the game, the party needs and the player skills. Pro-ranger folks will claim the ranger more than makes up for slightly worse to hit and damage with his skills and spells, pro-fighters will claim the fighter hits more and does more damage, so it is obviously the better archer. Almost no one will be swayed an inch from their previous opinions :)
dknight100
08-28-07, 08:57 PM lol, i would say thats exactly the outcome, but designing characters is fun :D

mainly its just out of interest - 25 pb then?
Argaud
08-28-07, 09:14 PM lol, i would say thats exactly the outcome, but designing characters is fun :D

mainly its just out of interest - 25 pb then?
Certainly :D
dknight100
08-29-07, 06:29 AM Captains log, 29-08-07:
I find most character design fun, but it turns out not rangers. Good versatility, high skill base, some helpful magic (using complete adventurer gets you a nice spell list), and handy animal companion (wolf is cool for tripping attempts, just useful for slowing people down), but utterly boring to make.

I might post some ranger ideas later in the week, but for the moment, its back to arcana evolved campaign prep.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bolomang 08-28-07, 05:03 AM	i was wondering, what is better, without spells or magic items, a ranger focusing on ranged attacks, or a fighter focusing on ranged attacks? ps: if you use abbreviations, please put them in parentheses (like this) the first time u use them...
Lady_Dragon 08-28-07, 05:54 AM	I'm going to have to go with Fighter here. The key to being a really effective archer is the ranged feats. The fighter has feats in spades, and even though the ranger gets a few of these for free, the fighter can get these and more, PLUS the weapon focus feats with shortbow or longbow to make it even nastier. Combining this with a good strength and dexterity and a composite bow with a strength modifier, and you have yourself a nasty archer.
dknight100 08-28-07, 06:05 AM	Without spells, the fighter easily. With spells and class features taken into account... ranger comes out ahead. Fighters get feats, but rangers get magic, and specifically entangle, which is nifty as you can then keep people at range while you shoot them, unlike the fighter. One thing to keep in mind that as long as your to hit is alright, extra damage dice is better than straight modifiers to your bow (i.e. if you can take flaming/shocking/icy/sonic weapon buffs vs +2 or greater)
goawayugh 08-28-07, 07:46 AM	If you're just focusing on attack/damage output without magic, nothing will ever beat a Fighter. Although Ranger is a MUCH better class to play.
Argaud 08-28-07, 09:50 AM	Without spells, the fighter easily. With spells and class features taken into account... ranger comes out ahead. Fighters get feats, but rangers get magic, and specifically entangle, which is nifty as you can then keep people at range while you shoot them, unlike the fighter. One thing to keep in mind that as long as your to hit is alright, extra damage dice is better than straight modifiers to your bow (i.e. if you can take flaming/shocking/icy/sonic weapon buffs vs +2 or greater) Please, explain me how the ranger can beat the +4 to hit and +6 to damage from each arrow that the fighter gets from feats. Not to mention the fighter has Improved Rapid Shot at level 6. As for the bow, all those energy enhancements become obsolete at high level because everybody has energy resistance. Also, DR becomes a huge problem since a character generally cannot Power Attack with arrows (exception: Peerless Archer). The best enhencements for bows are probably Split (Champions of Ruin) that doubles the number of arrows fired, and Force (Magic Items Compendium) that turns the arrows into force attacks, which get through all DR (even epic).
goawayugh 08-28-07, 10:20 AM	Yes, force is the best bow enhancement there is.
Fallenangel359 08-28-07, 11:01 AM	A multiclass between the 2 is the best. Now if you want absolute best archer, I'd go artificer 4, warmage 6, force missile mage 5, ardent savant 5, not nessessarily in that order. Spellstoring bolts with self reloading quickloading light crossbows, with twf. Just put lots of highpowered magic missiles in there, for rediculous missile spam. The best archer sniper would be a fighter, with the energybow.
dknight100 08-28-07, 05:11 PM	Please, explain me how the ranger can beat the +4 to hit and +6 to damage from each arrow that the fighter gets from feats. Not to mention the fighter has Improved Rapid Shot at level 6. Because even though the poster asked about without spells and such, thats similar to saying, whats better: cleric with no items or a monk with no items? Without spells and the rest of their class features, the fighter is better. However, with class features, the ranger pulls ahead - he has increased versatility from his casting ability - including keeping people at range, such as entangle, snare, and water walk. Keeping someone entirely away from you is always better than a bit more damage per shot. As for the bow, all those energy enhancements become obsolete at high level because everybody has energy resistance. Also, DR becomes a huge problem since a character generally cannot Power Attack with arrows (exception: Peerless Archer). Its pretty much because you can't power attack that the extra damage dice are better - with decent bab and dex, you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, and while many monsters have energy resists, its most certainly not all of them, and they don't have resistance to all energy. If you don't take fire, you're pretty much safe, and if you do take fire, just make sure you take some other things - unless your DM has you fighting fire types all the time, it will still pay itself off. ::EDIT:: Enchanting energy dice onto your weapon instead of to hit is similar to enchanting damage - you trade off 1 to hit, and a definite 1 to damage, in exchange for 3.5 average damage, with a range of 1-6 damage. I also realised i didn't get around to answering your DR point. This doesn't actually matter that the target has DR. If it has DR/magic, then the bow gets through (under any reading of the rules, as to have energy dice added to it, the weapon must be +1 first). If it has DR/piercing, then bow is just as stuffed, regardless of core enchants (see next section) The best enhencements for bows are probably Split (Champions of Ruin) that doubles the number of arrows fired, and Force (Magic Items Compendium) that turns the arrows into force attacks, which get through all DR (even epic). Those are indeed awesome enhancements to have - i didn't reference them because i was just refering to core material as its the only thing we can be sure people have. For example, if i include non core, using spells the ranger becomes an even better archer, just from including the Complete Adventurer expanded spell lists.
The_Shaman 08-28-07, 06:41 PM	i was wondering, what is better, without spells or magic items, a ranger focusing on ranged attacks, or a fighter focusing on ranged attacks? ps: if you use abbreviations, please put them in parentheses (like this) the first time u use them... Under these conditions, probably fighter, but not by much. Without the ranger's spot, hide and MS as class skills, the fighter is a superior archer... but only against enemies s/he can see, and s/he leaves him/herself much more open to retaliation. Should I presume that since you say no spells, you are using any of the spellless ranger variants? Because a ranger with splitting arrow and a lesser rod of empowering can do some pretty nasty tricks imo.
Nightshade 08-28-07, 06:42 PM	On a battle field, the fighter generally has a better to hit and damage with his arrows plus the feats to max out the feat tree and so is better. UNLESS... the monster or humanoid you're fighting is one of the Ranger Favored Enemies. Then the Ranger almost pulls even. BUT... the Ranger has skills in move silently, spot, and spells. Those really really make you a better archer than the fighter because you're always dealing with circumstances where those are handy. Personally, I'd go Ranger if I was going archery but maybe dip into fighter for 2 feats.
Argaud 08-28-07, 06:44 PM	Because even though the poster asked about without spells and such, thats similar to saying, whats better: cleric with no items or a monk with no items? Without spells and the rest of their class features, the fighter is better. However, with class features, the ranger pulls ahead - he has increased versatility from his casting ability - including keeping people at range, such as entangle, snare, and water walk. Keeping someone entirely away from you is always better than a bit more damage per shot. Generally the ranger spells are weak. They come late and in small doses, and although there is a jewel or two out there (usually in obscure supplements like Champions of Ruin) they hardly make the ranger a better archer, since they are momentaneous buffs that last just one round (although swift spells are nice) or take one action, which means the fighter has already caused considerable damage while the ranger buffed. Your example of good spells, for instance, is somewhat lacking. Entangle only works outdoors, with plenty vegetation around, and most fights in D&D take place indoors, in dungeons or cities. Snare takes 3 rounds to cast. Water Walk means the party is fighting on water, how often does that happen? Not to mention the ranger gets that at level 11 the earliest, when magical flight is already very common for all party members. And then you have all the rest of the ranger class abilities. Frankly, most are a joke. The combat styles gives 3 decent feats, so it is good. Favored enemy depends on the DM being nice to the ranger. Endurance was a joke before PH2, now it is almost good because it is the prereq of Steadfast Determination, a feat that is pure gold for ranger and fighters. Track become obsolete after level 5-6, because magic gives so much better options to track people. Woodland stride is a joke as class ability, it basically does nothing. Camouflage and HiPS are NPC abilities, in the typical party environment they have almost no use (yes, yes, in a campaign revolving around scouting and sneaking they are great, but a campaign's specifics can make any class utterly awesome). Basically the bulk of the ranger class abilities are equvalent to very weak feats that nobody would take if they weren't free. Even Evasion is iffy, what would you take with a warrior character if given a choice: Evasion or Power Attack? Evasion or Combat Reflexes? Saying class abilities are better than feats is pretty dumb. Some class abilities are very good, but many, if not most, are colorful crap. Its pretty much because you can't power attack that the extra damage dice are better - with decent bab and dex, you're pretty much guaranteed a hit, and while many monsters have energy resists, its most certainly not all of them, and they don't have resistance to all energy. If you don't take fire, you're pretty much safe, and if you do take fire, just make sure you take some other things - unless your DM has you fighting fire types all the time, it will still pay itself off. It is true that a full bab class will almost always hit with the first attack. But archers can generally full attack each and every round, so hitting with the second, third and even fourth attack is possible, particularly with the very high to hit fighters can achieve. Moreover the +6 to damage from feats is nothing to scoff at because arrows generally do little damage (but if you hit with a lot of them every round, all is good). Energy resists are incredibly common after level 10. It is really annoying. Just check the encounter lists :( I also realised i didn't get around to answering your DR point. This doesn't actually matter that the target has DR. If it has DR/magic, then the bow gets through (under any reading of the rules, as to have energy dice added to it, the weapon must be +1 first). If it has DR/piercing, then bow is just as stuffed, regardless of core enchants (see next section) The main problem with DR is the DR/alignment, which archers can't punch through easily because they can't power attack.
Treantmonklvl20 08-28-07, 06:53 PM	A multiclass between the two is better than either single classed. (you will maintain hide/sneak skills - can pick up almost every ranged feat easy). Take a level of Ranger first though - for the frontloading. You should also exit into one of the Archery-based PrC's ASAP. OBI, Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper - they are all better at archery than either of these classes are.
dknight100 08-28-07, 07:37 PM	Basically the bulk of the ranger class abilities are equvalent to very weak feats that nobody would take if they weren't free. Even Evasion is iffy, what would you take with a warrior character if given a choice: Evasion or Power Attack? Evasion or Combat Reflexes? Saying class abilities are better than feats is pretty dumb. Some class abilities are very good, but many, if not most, are colorful crap. I'll post more on the spells when i get back to my apartment, as i have all my books on me then, rather than just whats on the SRD. However, i do recall quite a few spells in the complete adventurer that would definitely push the ranger far ahead as an archer, regardless on your views of utility spells. However, in response to this: While i despise favoured enemy, its a stupid class features that only useful if the DM is catering to your ranger, and woodland stride is really only good if your DM is having someone hunt your ranger (and not the rest of the party, because they don't have woodland stride) HIPS and Evasion are very, very good features. With HIPS, you can literally disappear and get into a new position, and thats always handy, and evasion, well, is awesome. Once the fighter has 250lbs of gold to spare (25,000GP) he can get a ring of evasion though, but thats a ranger can spend that on other things. Most class features are not just flavorful crap - overall there is nothing stopping the ranger from also taking feats, such as power attack (even though neither can do it with the bow without PrCs) while there is something stopping the fighter from casting spells, hiding in plain sight, nimbling evading damage on reflex saves and having an animal companion - he's not a ranger.
Argaud 08-28-07, 07:53 PM	Most class features are not just flavorful crap - overall there is nothing stopping the ranger from also taking feats, such as power attack (even though neither can do it with the bow without PrCs) while there is something stopping the fighter from casting spells, hiding in plain sight, nimbling evading damage on reflex saves and having an animal companion - he's not a ranger. But many of those features are easily duplicated by low level spells and cheap magic items. HiPS: Potion of Invisibility. Evasion? There is a ring (not that it is very useful for a weak ref save class, but fighters have the hp needed to fail ref saves). Companion? It is a weak pet, you can get a better one with the Wild Cohort feat, not to mention Leadership, if you really need it. (Not that I'd include the companion among the "colorful/flavor crap", mind you, a free mount, even a weak one, is a good thing).
dknight100 08-28-07, 08:12 PM	in those cases, the ring is REALLY not cheap, requiring 25,000 gp - more than a +3 weapon (18,000gp). Invisibility? 300gp a drink (though its better than HIPS). The companion isn't better than the druid one, but it isn't weak, and investing in leadership are things that take more feats, that don't effectively replicate it either. I don't think that i have the book wild cohort is from, so i can't comment, but it sounds like it modifies leadership? If i have time, i might post an example ranger archer when i get back to my apartment, and other people can put up theirs and equivalent fighters. Shall we say 10th level, 28 point buy, no item worth more than 1/3 of their total Wealth by level?
Argaud 08-28-07, 08:52 PM	in those cases, the ring is REALLY not cheap, requiring 25,000 gp - more than a +3 weapon (18,000gp). Invisibility? 300gp a drink (though its better than HIPS). The companion isn't better than the druid one, but it isn't weak, and investing in leadership are things that take more feats, that don't effectively replicate it either. I don't think that i have the book wild cohort is from, so i can't comment, but it sounds like it modifies leadership? The Wild Cohort is in a web enhancement. It is an interesting feat, not as powerful and problematic as Leadership. Here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a If i have time, i might post an example ranger archer when i get back to my apartment, and other people can put up theirs and equivalent fighters. Shall we say 10th level, 28 point buy, no item worth more than 1/3 of their total Wealth by level? I would like to keep it to 25 points or the elite array, that is what the game assumes for PCs. I will post a fighter if you want, but I already suspect what is going to be the result. The bottom line: the fighter shots better, the ranger has great skills. None can be said to be clearly better because it depends on the game, the party needs and the player skills. Pro-ranger folks will claim the ranger more than makes up for slightly worse to hit and damage with his skills and spells, pro-fighters will claim the fighter hits more and does more damage, so it is obviously the better archer. Almost no one will be swayed an inch from their previous opinions :)
dknight100 08-28-07, 08:57 PM	lol, i would say thats exactly the outcome, but designing characters is fun :D mainly its just out of interest - 25 pb then?
Argaud 08-28-07, 09:14 PM	lol, i would say thats exactly the outcome, but designing characters is fun :D mainly its just out of interest - 25 pb then? Certainly :D
dknight100 08-29-07, 06:29 AM	Captains log, 29-08-07: I find most character design fun, but it turns out not rangers. Good versatility, high skill base, some helpful magic (using complete adventurer gets you a nice spell list), and handy animal companion (wolf is cool for tripping attempts, just useful for slowing people down), but utterly boring to make. I might post some ranger ideas later in the week, but for the moment, its back to arcana evolved campaign prep.