Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Muftiman 08-21-07, 06:49 AM	Hey everyone, I wanted to share my best and most rounded character ever, that I am playing for the Savage Tide campaign. Viraan is at 9 lvl right now (with the -2 lvls for being a gith) My ultimate combo is the use of a two-handed reach weapon (glaive, guisarme, longspear, etc) and the massive number of feats from the fighter and psionic warrior classes. Feats: Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Combat Reflexes Short Haft Combat Expertise Power Attack Whildwind attack Improved Bull Rush Awsome Blow Whilrwind Awsome Blow Opportunist Awsome Blow Monkey Grip Quicken Dimension Door and more... The basic combo is the use of combat reflexes and whirlwind attack so I can attack multiple targets at an increased range. Using the enlarge and animal affinity, I can meet the requirements for awsome blow and I can also do damage with an awsome blow, therby keeping the enemy out of reach. The additional feats combine the whilrwind attack and combat reflexes feats to push the enemy out of range AND do damage with attacks of opportunity and whildwind attack. I can grow to Huge size, later wield an oversized weapon, so my reach will be 25ft and I can compensate with powers ;ike force screen, combat prec, animal affinity dex, and other items. Not to mention the gith abilities: blur, dimension door, telekinesis, and plane shift. Perfect character, and great role playing with his Cha 6 and LN alignment. :) Let me know your thoughts. Muftiman
Fabius Maximus 08-21-07, 07:15 AM	How did you get enough Wisdom to be a Psywarrior?
GawainBS 08-21-07, 07:23 AM	Well, personally, I think a Monk/Psywar with Tashalatora would mob the stones with him. Also, how do you combine Combat Reflexes and Whirlwind? I have to admit I forgot what Awesome Blow does. Care to enlighten me?:)
Muftiman 09-05-07, 10:46 AM	How did you get enough Wisdom to be a Psywarrior? well, I'm at work right now so I'm not sure whaccha mean....I think the character has wis 14, but I wasn't aware that this is a requirement. Only Int 13 for combat reflexes I think, which I have, both scores. But mainly str, dex, and con of course....and I have a cha 8 which play to the fullest--great rpg opps there... (let me know what the deal is over here, since I am a bit unsure about this wis thing) cheers tomi
LoneFlame 09-05-07, 10:53 AM	If you're playing a Psychic Warrior, you don't need Fighter lvs. For the most part, those just hurt your psionics. Then again, if it's gestalt(which you never actually said you were doing), it's not bad, but you'd be better off straight Psion & Fighter, since Psionic Warrior is basically a compromise between the two.
Muftiman 09-05-07, 10:55 AM	Well, personally, I think a Monk/Psywar with Tashalatora would mob the stones with him. Also, how do you combine Combat Reflexes and Whirlwind? I have to admit I forgot what Awesome Blow does. Care to enlighten me?:) I don't know about that man! :) This character is in overkill mode right now, especially since I just got the level for awsome blow!!! hehe The basic concept is to get as many feats as possible with fighter and psywarrior, you can see the list is quite impressive. Awsome blow is a great feat at the end of monster manual (since I am playing a monster...:) and it basically allows you to score damage on a bullrush attempt, which would shift the attacker back X feet, and keep them out of reach. That's the beauty of the combo, since I am using a two-handed reach weapon and basdically they can never get close to me due to the attacks of opportunities that I dish out. Only thing, you need str 25, which I have through animal affinity and enlarge. The main idea (approval from DM) was to take two more feats: Opportunist Awsome Blow Whilrwind Awsome Blow the first of which would be tied to combat reflexes (so I can make awsome blows on attacks ofd opportunity) and the second so I can make awsome blows on a whirlswind attack (kinda like Sauron in the mass battle in LOTR when he swings and people just fly away). hope you like the combo tomi
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 10:59 AM	Is this a gestalt character? How exactly did you get all those feats? The idea is interesting, certainly. It seems like a variation on the old spiked-chain-wielding-crowd-control-fighter. Also, just for the record, the best character ever is Pun Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) :P 5th level, literally unlimited power.
Muftiman 09-05-07, 11:09 AM	yeah right, but show me a character that has this many feats without being a fighter. The combos here are through FEATS, i thought that was pretty clear, complimented by some gith and psionic powers...
Muftiman 09-05-07, 11:12 AM	both fighter and psywarrior get bonus feats, and lots of them... oh yes, and CHA 6!!! :) not the friendliest character, but it is pretty funny cause my friend is playing a Selune Cleric/Paladin/HeartWarden with CHA 26+
moriarty13 09-05-07, 11:19 AM	Awesome Blow is a standard action where you take -4 to hit and get the possibility of knockback. It's a standard action, so you can only do 1 per round. Assuming your DM is foolish enough to make up new feats that allow you to Awesome Blow against everyone with whirlwind attack and combat reflexes, then your build seems pretty decent against many smaller foes. The buff time at startup to get your enlarge and animal affinity turned on sort of hurts, I imagine. I'd be wary of titling a thread "best character ever", by the way. It's hardly that.
LoneFlame 09-05-07, 11:25 AM	I'd be wary of titling a thread "best character ever", by the way. It's hardly that. Yes, I've seen and done far better character builds in my days. And none of them revolved primarily around character feats. Compare any feat(or feat tree) to spells. Nuff said. The closest martial thing that compares to spells is maneuvers and even those can't stand up to the simple Time Stop, delayed blast fireball(with elemental substitution *insert element here* to get around the Flame's Blessing stance). Don't get me wrong. You can do a lot of cool stuff with the right combinations of feats and alternate class features, but you can only do so much.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 11:53 AM	both fighter and psywarrior get bonus feats, and lots of them... Yes, but is that 9th level build you showed gestalt or not? I'm trying to figure out how you managed to get that many feats. You said the PC is 9th level. What are his total fighter/psycic warrior levels? 8/1? 6/3? 2/7? Or is it 9/9 (gestalt)? I can't see any way to get that many feats without it being a gestalt build. From what I see, you have 14 feats outlined in your build. The feats you will get by 9th level are: 4 feats from your level (1, 3, 6, and 9) Up to 5 feats for a 9th level fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, 8) Up to 4 feats for a 9th level psychic warrior (1, 2, 5, 8) Up to 2 feats from flaws form Unearthed Arcana So the only way I can see you doing this is if you're a gestalt character (counting both classes at 9th level as opposed to a sum of the levels equalling 9th level) and by taking at least one flaw. That's all I was asking.
Muftiman 09-05-07, 01:54 PM	right, just saying it's a very enjoyable character....and since the options are limitless, I think it's a great combo for a two-handed weapon. here is the feat progression 1-20 (spaces for lvladj, and empty levels): the character is lvl 12 now, thats fgh2/pw8 combat reflexes, short haft dodge mobility, spring att combat exp whirlwind att power attack improved bull rush awsome blow whirldwind awsome blow, opportunist awsome blow monkey grip quicken dimension door blur->displacement quicken telekinesis, quicken displacement (or whatever at this level...) also, time stop? how can you even compare a fighters hp, armor, melee dmg, etc to spells? it's talking apples and oranges.... look, a dominate monster can absolutely "kill" him anytime as well, or the whole party for that matter...right? Plus you have to understand, if you "role play" that a good character is not about the stats and the "rules", but about getting into the mindset of a clearly defined personality with a solid background and adventure hooks, crazy combos (and these are unlimited--the Selune cleric I mentioned will have the highest saving throws in the game system!!!, which almost wasn't approved by our DM, but the guy is an amazing role-player so it's ok, plus it's good to have a cleric if all fails :), and it should have a "feeling" to it. I'd rather play any dungeon inside-out for example, gettign captured, exploring, and breaking out...not a linear room-to-room hack-and-slash. I play "cinematic" dnd, thought the combo was cinematic enough, works really well in most situations, and there is no rule for pushing people back with a weapon AND dealing damage at the same time, so what would you suggest (the only thing we modified was that awsome blow is not a standard action for a feat, so then it can be a fukkl attack action for whilrwind, and a free action for attacks of opportunity, with a -4 penalty!!!, -6 if they are within range!!!), so?
moriarty13 09-05-07, 03:48 PM	Highest saving throws in the game system? I'm pretty sure that's Infinity which is indeed quite impressive:). The other issue that I've run across with a expansion/combat reflexer is that every time you go up a size category you lose Dexterity, which causes you to lose AoOs. And if you drop below 13 Dex (prereq for Dodge) then you lose Dodge, Mobility, Whirlwind Attack, etc. for the duration. It can be a big problem. Also, I have trouble giving up the hit points and BAB to trade in for Level Adjustment unless the race is really really great. I don't have my books with me so I don't know if Githyanki are worth it for 2 levels of no hit points, attack bonus, or skills.
Fabius Maximus 09-05-07, 07:20 PM	well, I'm at work right now so I'm not sure whaccha mean....I think the character has wis 14, but I wasn't aware that this is a requirement. Well, PsyWarriors need a high Wisdom score to use their powers. Githyanki have -2 on Wisdom. Did you get good dice throw results?
GawainBS 09-06-07, 04:37 AM	With 14 WIS, you're going to miss out on the lvl 5 & 6 Psychix Warrior powers, and also a lot of Powerpoints.
Muftiman 09-06-07, 06:14 AM	DEX is my highest ability score (22 right now) so that's not a worry... Also, we don't like to use psionics, cause it is quite unbalanced in the system, we feel. That's why I'm only takig it to lvl 8 psywarrior... I also think gith race is a funky one, plane shift, telekinesis, blur, dimension door, small SR, plus ability increases are pretty cool... and infinity saving throws...? no loops in our game, defeats the purpose!!! i think the paladin class is one of the strongest ones in the game, for the increased to saves, plus, if you have a crazy CHA score, it's insane... just some thoughts
Ecalsneerg 09-06-07, 06:52 AM	Also, we don't like to use psionics, cause it is quite unbalanced in the system, we feel. That's why I'm only takig it to lvl 8 psywarrior... Don't say that! You'll set somebody off!
GawainBS 09-06-07, 08:32 AM	Read this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=331253 I think your DM customizing those feats has a far worse impact on game balance than Psionics ever will.
Muftiman 09-06-07, 09:00 AM	absolutely not!!! I think creating or expanding feats to emulate realistic effects that are not covered in the rules is not only a good idea, it is essential. anything should be possible in rpg, so I don't why this feat progression shouldn't be allowed...? with regards to psionics, I think the massive amoiunt of power points ruins the balance, since a high level psion can use an almost unlimited number of fisrt level powers AND can even boost most of them. How is that balanced with spells???
GawainBS 09-06-07, 09:04 AM	You haven't read the link, have you?
RobbyPants 09-06-07, 10:00 AM	I play "cinematic" dnd, thought the combo was cinematic enough, works really well in most situations, and there is no rule for pushing people back with a weapon AND dealing damage at the same time, so what would you suggest (the only thing we modified was that awsome blow is not a standard action for a feat, so then it can be a fukkl attack action for whilrwind, and a free action for attacks of opportunity, with a -4 penalty!!!, -6 if they are within range!!!), so? absolutely not!!! I think creating or expanding feats to emulate realistic effects that are not covered in the rules is not only a good idea, it is essential. Well, if part of your wonderful combo is based in house-rules, don't be surprised when people from outside your game aren't too impressed. ;) Those are some pretty potent house-rules. I can't say I blame you for creating a character to exploit them. I'd do the same.
moriarty13 09-06-07, 10:15 AM	My DM let me take a feat that lets me cast all wizard spells up to 9th level at will as a swift action! I play a level 3 rogue. It's the best character ever! But psionics are broken.
LeuktheSavior 09-06-07, 10:21 AM	I'd use the ratbag-cleave ability to close with you. throw a bag of rats down, let them scatter, and start using cleave and great cleave and superior great cleave to move in close without provoking an AoO, then id sunder your weapon, or disarm you, depending on my mood.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-06-07, 10:41 AM	This could be done sooooo much better you know(without house rules). I did just that a few weeks ago. For example, Awesome Blow isn't actually awesome at all. It kind of sucks. Take Knock-back(Races of Stone) instead. It's a lot better. Don't take Monkey Grip, take anything else instead. It sucks large amounts of balls. A common saying around here so quotes " Taking Monkey Grip is like shooting yourself in the foot just to find out what tetanus feels like." Don't take it, and if you already have try to get rid of it. If you want, I could post a build that does what you want, within the rules and does it a lot better then you do. Oh, and psionics aren't broken. They are much, much better balanced then spells. I suggest you head over to the psionics forum and read the myth stickies.
The_Shaman 09-06-07, 05:00 PM	I can't say I'm especially impressed. Githyanki are not a great race for psiwarriors, you're messing up your already poor manifesting with multiclassing and LA, and your will save is probably in deep trouble. That augmented expansion is quite costly, not that hard to dispel, and will take at least 1/5 of your PP reserve in one go. With up to 8 levels of PWs, you get something like 24 PPs to last for one day with (probably) several encounters. It's hard to break a psychic warrior, and I don't think you will. Still, if you enjoy the character, why bother about the details?
Fabius Maximus 09-06-07, 05:13 PM	@Einvaldurinn_mikli: Isn't Knockback for Large and larger characters only?
Muftiman 09-07-07, 02:50 AM	You haven't read the link, have you? no, I did look into it. But my thoughts haven't changed a lot. Psionics is is a great concept, especially for multiclassing, but still....I'd rather play a multiclass fighter type/sorcerer anyday. and my point was about the power points and low power cost of lower level powers, which can be boosted as well... hm
Muftiman 09-07-07, 02:52 AM	I can't say I'm especially impressed. Githyanki are not a great race for psiwarriors, you're messing up your already poor manifesting with multiclassing and LA, and your will save is probably in deep trouble. That augmented expansion is quite costly, not that hard to dispel, and will take at least 1/5 of your PP reserve in one go. With up to 8 levels of PWs, you get something like 24 PPs to last for one day with (probably) several encounters. It's hard to break a psychic warrior, and I don't think you will. Still, if you enjoy the character, why bother about the details? exactly! and you are right about the will save, that's why I mentioned dominate!!! which has actually happened once already in the game and two party members ended up splattered on the wall... but hey, that's also fun! :)
Muftiman 09-07-07, 02:55 AM	This could be done sooooo much better you know(without house rules). I did just that a few weeks ago. For example, Awesome Blow isn't actually awesome at all. It kind of sucks. Take Knock-back(Races of Stone) instead. It's a lot better. Don't take Monkey Grip, take anything else instead. It sucks large amounts of balls. A common saying around here so quotes " Taking Monkey Grip is like shooting yourself in the foot just to find out what tetanus feels like." Don't take it, and if you already have try to get rid of it. If you want, I could post a build that does what you want, within the rules and does it a lot better then you do. Oh, and psionics aren't broken. They are much, much better balanced then spells. I suggest you head over to the psionics forum and read the myth stickies. thanks for the advice. I'll check out Knock-back, wasn't aware of this feat... and if you have any suggestions for using an oversized weapon without monkey-grip, then let me know. THe extra damage and extra reach is well worth a feat I think... and please post your ideas, would be interested
Muftiman 09-07-07, 03:00 AM	My DM let me take a feat that lets me cast all wizard spells up to 9th level at will as a swift action! I play a level 3 rogue. It's the best character ever! But psionics are broken. what? dude, talk about unbalancing the game. and how is a rogue casting anyhting, and as a swift action.... Just look at the requisites for quicken spell. this is probably the most powerful feature in casting spells and not to be taken lightly. and it's one thing to create a feat prigression at high levels and to have a free quicken spell ability... I don't get it
Muftiman 09-07-07, 03:08 AM	I'd use the ratbag-cleave ability to close with you. throw a bag of rats down, let them scatter, and start using cleave and great cleave and superior great cleave to move in close without provoking an AoO, then id sunder your weapon, or disarm you, depending on my mood. I guess this is like using a bag of rats to negate the AoO's, good idea by the way. but again, this character is lvl 20+ with the feats and power-player weapon. don't you think? so there is no basis for comparison. it's like the time stop example above...:) another point, in our house rules, only two effects for keen can stack, never more...too strong...
GawainBS 09-07-07, 04:02 AM	First of all, that thread explains very clearly why the amount of PP isn't that much at all, in actual play. Secondly: an oversized weapon doesn't automaticly increase reach.
Muftiman 09-07-07, 08:16 AM	First of all, that thread explains very clearly why the amount of PP isn't that much at all, in actual play. Secondly: an oversized weapon doesn't automaticly increase reach. right, well, according to my experiences, and I have been playing with the same guys for about 15 years now, there are certain things in the game mechanics which are quite unbalanced. PP's are one of these issues, 5 foot step for retreating is also ridiculous, soem people stack cirticals which we feel is way too powerful, and the list goes on... regarding oversized weapons, it you are using a reach weapon, let's say a glaive, and it is a size category larger than the norm, wouldn't it add 5ft to its reach? you would think...
GawainBS 09-07-07, 09:26 AM	right, well, according to my experiences, and I have been playing with the same guys for about 15 years now, there are certain things in the game mechanics which are quite unbalanced. PP's are one of these issues, 5 foot step for retreating is also ridiculous, soem people stack cirticals which we feel is way too powerful, and the list goes on... regarding oversized weapons, it you are using a reach weapon, let's say a glaive, and it is a size category larger than the norm, wouldn't it add 5ft to its reach? you would think... Read that thread I posted, read the arguments, don't go by what your group *thinks*, and judge afterwards. You have clearly no idea how precious PP are, and that 5ft step retreating and critical stacking... No idea where that comes from in a psionic perspective. As for the reach weapon-issue: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/weapons.html#reach-weapons Ofcourse, you'd have to read that link as well.
moriarty13 09-07-07, 09:46 AM	what? dude, talk about unbalancing the game. and how is a rogue casting anyhting, and as a swift action.... Just look at the requisites for quicken spell. this is probably the most powerful feature in casting spells and not to be taken lightly. and it's one thing to create a feat prigression at high levels and to have a free quicken spell ability... I don't get it So my crazy unbalanced homebrew feat is less balanced than your crazy unbalanced homebrew feats? How bizarre! In my experience, there are only a few reasons why someone makes a post like this, talking about their build/character: 1) Bragging about how awesome they are 2) Looking for advice on future feats, multiclassing, equipment 3) Sharing a combination with the community Generally, arguing that your build really is the "best character ever" puts it square in the bragging category.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-07-07, 11:49 AM	@Einvaldurinn_mikli: Isn't Knockback for Large and larger characters only? Yes. It is. Or characters with Powerful Build. Personally, I'd use Half-Minotaur from Dragon magazine or maybe the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny if the Minotaur is too cheesy. It's well worth it, the feat is awesome. Especially combined with the Dungeoncrasher variant. thanks for the advice. I'll check out Knock-back, wasn't aware of this feat... and if you have any suggestions for using an oversized weapon without monkey-grip, then let me know. THe extra damage and extra reach is well worth a feat I think... and please post your ideas, would be interested Monkey Grip doesn't give you extra reach. The extra damage is not worth the feat, you are pretty much always better off just PAing for an extra two and using the feat for something else. See, going from 2d6 to 3d6 is increase in average damage of 3.5 points. Power attacking for 2 is an increase of at least 4 point.(With a twohander and no extra feats to enhance PA. With Leap Attack this gets better.) Plus, you can turn it on or off. It might be worth it however if you can become gargantuan somehow. One way to do that would be to ask the Wizard to PAO you into a Firbolg or Wartroll or similar. Then manifest expansion.
aelryinth 09-07-07, 01:14 PM	By the rules, if you need Expansion and whatnot to qualify for Awesome Blow, you can't take it for a feat...you don't meet the pre-reqs. Being able to temporairily meet the reqs by dint of spells/buffs does not count...and there's even ambiguity about magical item stat buffs being counted, although they did it with Regdar to get him Expertise in Enemies and Allies. ===Aelryinth
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-07-07, 01:39 PM	By the rules, if you need Expansion and whatnot to qualify for Awesome Blow, you can't take it for a feat...you don't meet the pre-reqs. Being able to temporairily meet the reqs by dint of spells/buffs does not count...and there's even ambiguity about magical item stat buffs being counted, although they did it with Regdar to get him Expertise in Enemies and Allies. ===Aelryinth I am not sure about the spells/powers things, but there is no ambiguity as to whether or not magic items allow you to qualify. They do.
GawainBS 09-07-07, 02:29 PM	I am not sure about the spells/powers things, but there is no ambiguity as to whether or not magic items allow you to qualify. They do. While I personally rule otherwise, it's true: magic items, and taken to its logical extention, powers/spells, do allow you to qualify. There's a Sage ruling about it, for what that's worth.
Fabius Maximus 09-08-07, 07:30 AM	While I personally rule otherwise, it's true: magic items, and taken to its logical extention, powers/spells, do allow you to qualify. There's a Sage ruling about it, for what that's worth. Yeah. Common sense doesn't seem to be one of the sage's strongest suits. This particular ruling simply makes no sense.
GawainBS 09-08-07, 07:40 AM	Yeah. Common sense doesn't seem to be one of the sage's strongest suits. This particular ruling simply makes no sense. It opens the door for common, exploitable munchkinism, instead of well-thought-out powerbuilding & optimizing. ;)