Best class for noobs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best class for noobs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jameswife2003
11-04-07, 01:03 AM I'm about to start DMing a game where the only players will be me and my husband. I've never DMed before, and as you can imagine, I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out what classes we should be. He usually plays a fighter, possibly multiclass cleric, and I usually play some sort of caster(either a bard or a sorcerer), but I'm thinking of being a ranger. I would like to hear any experience any of you have with this type of scenerio, and your opinions on classes. And thanks for listening to the silly noob:P

PS: we'll probably only be using the core books at first.
InkBlot
11-04-07, 01:50 AM Cleric and Druid are the easiest classes in core. Or rather, they're the most difficult to permanently ruin.

Clerics and Druids know all the spells on their lists, automatically, and their spells are 75-90% of their class features. So if the spells you have today aren't working out for you, you can have an entirely new set of spells the next day.

Clerics and Druids are also extremely well rounded classes. They have decent hit points, decent attack bonus, decent saves, and great spellcasting. Druids also have decent skills, and are chock-a-block with class features. Clerics also have decent weapons and great armor.

The only sticky widget is becoming familiar with the mechanics of spellcasting, and the mechanics of wildshape. It sounds like you're already familiar with how spellcasting works, so that's not too bad.

If you want to avoid spellcasting, then Barabarian is a dead simple class. Just choose a two-handed weapon, a breastplate, and bash things over the head until they stop moving. Rogue is slightly more complex, since you have to know how skills and sneak attack work. Fighter is actually one of the most difficult classes to work with, even moreso than a Wizard in some ways, because you can't change your feats once you pick them and they have no other class features. If you had Tome Of Magic or Tome Of Battle, then I would have said Warblade or Binder.

If this is your first time DMing, it might be more important to find DMing advice (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24). A good DM can more than make up for choosing the "wrong" class.
jameswife2003
11-04-07, 08:10 AM I actually intent to look for DMing advice, just wanted others opinions on this first. DO you find the druids aversion to metal difficult to deal with? That's been one of the things keeping me from playing one. Most of the weapons and armor contain metal, so it seems to me it would be hard to upgrade.
Kratch
11-04-07, 09:04 AM I'm actually partial to rangers for newbs. They get access to combat options, skills and spellcasting, thus introducing all three of the main character elements, however, they are not in such significant quantities or demand as to overwhelm the player. Additionally, their abilities enter at a staggered rate, easing the player into each new ability slowly. Clerics and druids are the hardest to screw up, but they can be extremely overwhelming with hundreds of spells to sift through for the sack of taking only a small few. If an experienced player is making the character for the newb, I find sorcerers to be a nice class as well, as, once the spell has been chosen, it's very simple for the player to remember, and it becomes a matter of learning when and how to use the spells he has (hence why I think an experienced player needs to make the character though, to pick spells that are both useful, and grant various options for each spell known). Lastly, barbarian is a simple, melee only class, for those whom magic and skill does not appeal.
Treantmonklvl20
11-04-07, 09:18 AM Probably for your first time - a non-spellcaster is easier to play.

A non-spellcaster can be harder to build - but this is something the experienced players can help you with.

Barbarian and Ranger are both good choices. Paladin isn't bad either.
Amaril
11-04-07, 09:46 AM For first-time players, I would highly recommend fighter and sorcerer. The fighter is pretty straight forward, and the sorcerer doesn't have to deal with the mess of picking spells every day.

Once you've gained some experience with the rules and how the game is played, you'll probably want to explore some of the other classes.
The_Shaman
11-04-07, 10:08 AM Amaril, I must say I disagree. Fighter requires very careful feat management to not mess up badly. Sorcerer is the same with its spell selection. Trust me - in my first PnP game i was a sorcerer and the party's only arcane caster. There are times I really felt useless.

I'd say for starters, barbarian is pretty straightforward as long as you use Power Attack decently. Ranger is much more versatile, but it requires getting the hang of several things at once - combat (opportunist combat, in fact - rangers are poor tanks), skill use and spellcasting - to perform well. It is still not too hard, but not as easy as the barbarian. Cleric and druid, as InkBlot said, are also good options as they are simply too hard to mess up - especially the druid, which comes with a pet that can be the equal of combatants of its level.
Amaril
11-04-07, 10:17 AM I dunno, most beginning players tackling fighters typically follow the weapon focus/weapon specialization and power attack/cleave trees and do decently well with that.

While sorcerer is pretty limited in it's spell selection during play, that limitation also makes it easier to play the character. Additionally, bad spell selections can be changed at later levels.
Kratch
11-04-07, 10:31 AM Fighters and sorcerers are good for beginners if, and only if, there is an experienced player there to assist in building. both require good build decisions to function well, and can very quickly spiral into an uninspiring bore. I'm one of the people on these boards who think highly of the fighter, and even I wouldn't recommend it to a newb without personally taking an interest in the build as well. Whenever one of my group mates builds a fighter, I usually offer up several build options that fit their character concept, and let them pick and choose features from each if they want (which they usually appreciate the assist), and they aren't even newbs (just not as good at optimizing as myself)
InkBlot
11-04-07, 12:14 PM DO you find the druids aversion to metal difficult to deal with? That's been one of the things keeping me from playing one. Most of the weapons and armor contain metal, so it seems to me it would be hard to upgrade.
Druids can use metal weapons without any problems. As for armor, the druid's buff spells, Wildshape, and a Monk's Belt keep them save enough. I've never noticed the lack of metal armor being a problem. However, Wildshape is the best weapon and armor a druid has.
Dionon
11-04-07, 01:01 PM Something funny, the DnD for Dummies book states that the four classes that are supposedly the easiest are Sorcerer, Rogue, Fighter and Cleric. I tend to agree, but the others are right where Sorcerer and Fighter are definitly micro-management classes. But, if you think of a theme and stick to the core books initially you shouldnt have too much trouble with them. Themes for Fighter include [insert weapon]-Master, Brawler (Unarmed), Grappler etc, Themes for Sorcerers include Blaster, [insert element]-Master, [insert school of magic]-ist or er (Abjurist, Evoker etc), Support Specialist.

Personally when I started I went with a Wizard, that was my first class.... But I love magic and psionics more than arms (most of the time)
InkBlot
11-04-07, 01:33 PM I love magic and psionics more than arms (most of the time)
The rest of the time being when you don't want to roll dice with your teeth?

I know what you meant, but you seriously made me lol.
Benign_Shadow_Lord
11-04-07, 05:06 PM What ever you do don't have noobs be rogues. My little brother has weekly D&D sessions with his friends, I go along to look after my books which he borrows, and to play because he is one of the only other decent DMs that I know (that arn't offical DMs). Non of his friends is good at being a rogue, next time he starts over I'm gonna be the rouge.

Beginner players generaly dont know how many skill points to put into what, and even if you help them with that they tend to have problems figureing out when they are supposed to use them, or how, and in what combination. Also there is decision makeing, such as when to attack and when to wait for the party. Our rogue takes more dammage then our fighter cause he never knows when to run away or fall behind other players, he has almost died so many times I dont even remember, it takes up most of our clerics' healing spells to keep him alive.

This paragraph is the story continued if your not bored form reading the first I'll continue on. The rogue in our party tends to spring the traps on himself and the rest of the party instead of disableing them, aka he fails to detect or disable them pretty much every time. My character recently got pasted by a rather deadly trap that he didn't detect, though in this case it wasn't his fault. (Also I was not there and another player was using my character) Another player, who is as incopetent and D&D as you can be and still have the basic idea of how to play, pulled a suspicous lever when most of the party was in the same area and clustered together, the level triggered a trap and it was pretty much a massive stone slab section that is attached to a chain that falls out of the ceiling. Most of the party didn't fail the reflex save to jump out of the way, but the person who was playing my character did. Most of the party members have formed a conspiracy to kill that players character cause that player has caused innumerable problems in every campaign he has played in. I swear sometimes my little brothers friends are the most incopetent. An other wise good player did something realy stupid, he used his only weapon, which was a sythe, on an oze and lost it. I will now stop rambling and complaining sorry about that. :D
Kratch
11-04-07, 11:01 PM As a general rule, I personally don't like to give a newb a class that holds to much responsibility or choices to start, but that does grow into both. Thats why I like ranger (starts of simply needing to do damage for the party, but grows into scout and utility responsibility as levels progress and new abilities are gained). Rogue has to many skills available to choose from, and can easily be overwhelmed. Additionally, it has the responsibility of trapfinding, lockpicking, scout, etc that are often expected of it (fair or not), which some players feel takes away from them playing their character, and makes it into a group character. same thing happens with cleric for healing purposes. If the newb isn't getting to play his/her own character, it isn't as fun for them.
Krusk
11-04-07, 11:14 PM I am a fan of having new players who want spells play a bard. If they don't want spells i suggest barbarian.

Both are fairly simple classes, that allow the character some options to choose during combat.

Do i rage or not?
Do i cast my spell or do i use music?

without being overly complex, or requiring any micromanagement like fighter or sorcerer.
danielinthewolvesden
11-05-07, 12:08 AM Fighter is a good choice.

Druid needs to know scads of animals to shapeshift into. Bad choice.

A bad spell choice by a Sorc can be REALLY bad.

Rangers can be good.
The_Shaman
11-05-07, 04:04 AM On druids I'm inclined to disagree, Danielinthewolvesden. Druids have 5 levels to familiarize themselves with animals before they start shapeshifting, so the learning curve isn't so bad. Plus, the class is strong enough that they can still be viable even without using shapeshift at all.
runestar
11-05-07, 05:51 AM I dunno, most beginning players tackling fighters typically follow the weapon focus/weapon specialization and power attack/cleave trees and do decently well with that.

Hmm...I find they are more likely to opt for stinkers like monkey grip over more useful feat choices such as combat reflexes and improved trip.

I personally vote for cleric. Because they can spontaneously cast cure spells, you can't really screw up, unless you did not boost wis. However badly you screw up regarding your spell selection for the day, you can just convert them to healing spells and function as the party healbot.:)
InkBlot
11-05-07, 08:55 AM Fighter is a good choice.

...

A bad spell choice by a Sorc can be REALLY bad.
That's an odd statement to make. Sorcerers know far more spells than a fighter knows feats.
Realms of Chaos
11-05-07, 09:18 AM If you want to simplify as much as possible, try using some of the alternate abilities from the Player's Handbook II.

The alternate barbarian ability gets rid of the difficult choice of when to rage.

The alternate druid ability is self explanatory and gets rid of the complications of wildshape.

The alternate monk ability is much easier to understand than flurry of blows.

In addition, many of these abilities also get rid of complications such as special mounts, animal companions, and familiar.
runestar
11-05-07, 09:25 AM The alternate barbarian ability gets rid of the difficult choice of when to rage.

You mean there is a choice outside of raging at the start of combat? I have done some analysis on my own, and concluded that the berserker rage variant is very much inferior to a normal barb with extra rage...
jameswife2003
11-05-07, 08:51 PM Thanks for everyone's input. Here's what we've decided to do. He's going to play 2 characters, a dwarf fighter and a half-elf sorcerer. I'm going to play a half-elf ranger. We've also decided to play a short campaign, basically playing a few sessions and then deciding whether we want to continue to use these characters. It will also give me a chance to learn the finer points of DMing. That way if we do mess up the characters, we aren't stuck with them for 20+ levels. And we won't have to figure out where we are in the campaign after he goes back to Afghanistan in a few days.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jameswife2003 11-04-07, 01:03 AM	I'm about to start DMing a game where the only players will be me and my husband. I've never DMed before, and as you can imagine, I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out what classes we should be. He usually plays a fighter, possibly multiclass cleric, and I usually play some sort of caster(either a bard or a sorcerer), but I'm thinking of being a ranger. I would like to hear any experience any of you have with this type of scenerio, and your opinions on classes. And thanks for listening to the silly noob:P PS: we'll probably only be using the core books at first.
InkBlot 11-04-07, 01:50 AM	Cleric and Druid are the easiest classes in core. Or rather, they're the most difficult to permanently ruin. Clerics and Druids know all the spells on their lists, automatically, and their spells are 75-90% of their class features. So if the spells you have today aren't working out for you, you can have an entirely new set of spells the next day. Clerics and Druids are also extremely well rounded classes. They have decent hit points, decent attack bonus, decent saves, and great spellcasting. Druids also have decent skills, and are chock-a-block with class features. Clerics also have decent weapons and great armor. The only sticky widget is becoming familiar with the mechanics of spellcasting, and the mechanics of wildshape. It sounds like you're already familiar with how spellcasting works, so that's not too bad. If you want to avoid spellcasting, then Barabarian is a dead simple class. Just choose a two-handed weapon, a breastplate, and bash things over the head until they stop moving. Rogue is slightly more complex, since you have to know how skills and sneak attack work. Fighter is actually one of the most difficult classes to work with, even moreso than a Wizard in some ways, because you can't change your feats once you pick them and they have no other class features. If you had Tome Of Magic or Tome Of Battle, then I would have said Warblade or Binder. If this is your first time DMing, it might be more important to find DMing advice (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24). A good DM can more than make up for choosing the "wrong" class.
jameswife2003 11-04-07, 08:10 AM	I actually intent to look for DMing advice, just wanted others opinions on this first. DO you find the druids aversion to metal difficult to deal with? That's been one of the things keeping me from playing one. Most of the weapons and armor contain metal, so it seems to me it would be hard to upgrade.
Kratch 11-04-07, 09:04 AM	I'm actually partial to rangers for newbs. They get access to combat options, skills and spellcasting, thus introducing all three of the main character elements, however, they are not in such significant quantities or demand as to overwhelm the player. Additionally, their abilities enter at a staggered rate, easing the player into each new ability slowly. Clerics and druids are the hardest to screw up, but they can be extremely overwhelming with hundreds of spells to sift through for the sack of taking only a small few. If an experienced player is making the character for the newb, I find sorcerers to be a nice class as well, as, once the spell has been chosen, it's very simple for the player to remember, and it becomes a matter of learning when and how to use the spells he has (hence why I think an experienced player needs to make the character though, to pick spells that are both useful, and grant various options for each spell known). Lastly, barbarian is a simple, melee only class, for those whom magic and skill does not appeal.
Treantmonklvl20 11-04-07, 09:18 AM	Probably for your first time - a non-spellcaster is easier to play. A non-spellcaster can be harder to build - but this is something the experienced players can help you with. Barbarian and Ranger are both good choices. Paladin isn't bad either.
Amaril 11-04-07, 09:46 AM	For first-time players, I would highly recommend fighter and sorcerer. The fighter is pretty straight forward, and the sorcerer doesn't have to deal with the mess of picking spells every day. Once you've gained some experience with the rules and how the game is played, you'll probably want to explore some of the other classes.
The_Shaman 11-04-07, 10:08 AM	Amaril, I must say I disagree. Fighter requires very careful feat management to not mess up badly. Sorcerer is the same with its spell selection. Trust me - in my first PnP game i was a sorcerer and the party's only arcane caster. There are times I really felt useless. I'd say for starters, barbarian is pretty straightforward as long as you use Power Attack decently. Ranger is much more versatile, but it requires getting the hang of several things at once - combat (opportunist combat, in fact - rangers are poor tanks), skill use and spellcasting - to perform well. It is still not too hard, but not as easy as the barbarian. Cleric and druid, as InkBlot said, are also good options as they are simply too hard to mess up - especially the druid, which comes with a pet that can be the equal of combatants of its level.
Amaril 11-04-07, 10:17 AM	I dunno, most beginning players tackling fighters typically follow the weapon focus/weapon specialization and power attack/cleave trees and do decently well with that. While sorcerer is pretty limited in it's spell selection during play, that limitation also makes it easier to play the character. Additionally, bad spell selections can be changed at later levels.
Kratch 11-04-07, 10:31 AM	Fighters and sorcerers are good for beginners if, and only if, there is an experienced player there to assist in building. both require good build decisions to function well, and can very quickly spiral into an uninspiring bore. I'm one of the people on these boards who think highly of the fighter, and even I wouldn't recommend it to a newb without personally taking an interest in the build as well. Whenever one of my group mates builds a fighter, I usually offer up several build options that fit their character concept, and let them pick and choose features from each if they want (which they usually appreciate the assist), and they aren't even newbs (just not as good at optimizing as myself)
InkBlot 11-04-07, 12:14 PM	DO you find the druids aversion to metal difficult to deal with? That's been one of the things keeping me from playing one. Most of the weapons and armor contain metal, so it seems to me it would be hard to upgrade. Druids can use metal weapons without any problems. As for armor, the druid's buff spells, Wildshape, and a Monk's Belt keep them save enough. I've never noticed the lack of metal armor being a problem. However, Wildshape is the best weapon and armor a druid has.
Dionon 11-04-07, 01:01 PM	Something funny, the DnD for Dummies book states that the four classes that are supposedly the easiest are Sorcerer, Rogue, Fighter and Cleric. I tend to agree, but the others are right where Sorcerer and Fighter are definitly micro-management classes. But, if you think of a theme and stick to the core books initially you shouldnt have too much trouble with them. Themes for Fighter include [insert weapon]-Master, Brawler (Unarmed), Grappler etc, Themes for Sorcerers include Blaster, [insert element]-Master, [insert school of magic]-ist or er (Abjurist, Evoker etc), Support Specialist. Personally when I started I went with a Wizard, that was my first class.... But I love magic and psionics more than arms (most of the time)
InkBlot 11-04-07, 01:33 PM	I love magic and psionics more than arms (most of the time) The rest of the time being when you don't want to roll dice with your teeth? I know what you meant, but you seriously made me lol.
Benign_Shadow_Lord 11-04-07, 05:06 PM	What ever you do don't have noobs be rogues. My little brother has weekly D&D sessions with his friends, I go along to look after my books which he borrows, and to play because he is one of the only other decent DMs that I know (that arn't offical DMs). Non of his friends is good at being a rogue, next time he starts over I'm gonna be the rouge. Beginner players generaly dont know how many skill points to put into what, and even if you help them with that they tend to have problems figureing out when they are supposed to use them, or how, and in what combination. Also there is decision makeing, such as when to attack and when to wait for the party. Our rogue takes more dammage then our fighter cause he never knows when to run away or fall behind other players, he has almost died so many times I dont even remember, it takes up most of our clerics' healing spells to keep him alive. This paragraph is the story continued if your not bored form reading the first I'll continue on. The rogue in our party tends to spring the traps on himself and the rest of the party instead of disableing them, aka he fails to detect or disable them pretty much every time. My character recently got pasted by a rather deadly trap that he didn't detect, though in this case it wasn't his fault. (Also I was not there and another player was using my character) Another player, who is as incopetent and D&D as you can be and still have the basic idea of how to play, pulled a suspicous lever when most of the party was in the same area and clustered together, the level triggered a trap and it was pretty much a massive stone slab section that is attached to a chain that falls out of the ceiling. Most of the party didn't fail the reflex save to jump out of the way, but the person who was playing my character did. Most of the party members have formed a conspiracy to kill that players character cause that player has caused innumerable problems in every campaign he has played in. I swear sometimes my little brothers friends are the most incopetent. An other wise good player did something realy stupid, he used his only weapon, which was a sythe, on an oze and lost it. I will now stop rambling and complaining sorry about that. :D
Kratch 11-04-07, 11:01 PM	As a general rule, I personally don't like to give a newb a class that holds to much responsibility or choices to start, but that does grow into both. Thats why I like ranger (starts of simply needing to do damage for the party, but grows into scout and utility responsibility as levels progress and new abilities are gained). Rogue has to many skills available to choose from, and can easily be overwhelmed. Additionally, it has the responsibility of trapfinding, lockpicking, scout, etc that are often expected of it (fair or not), which some players feel takes away from them playing their character, and makes it into a group character. same thing happens with cleric for healing purposes. If the newb isn't getting to play his/her own character, it isn't as fun for them.
Krusk 11-04-07, 11:14 PM	I am a fan of having new players who want spells play a bard. If they don't want spells i suggest barbarian. Both are fairly simple classes, that allow the character some options to choose during combat. Do i rage or not? Do i cast my spell or do i use music? without being overly complex, or requiring any micromanagement like fighter or sorcerer.
danielinthewolvesden 11-05-07, 12:08 AM	Fighter is a good choice. Druid needs to know scads of animals to shapeshift into. Bad choice. A bad spell choice by a Sorc can be REALLY bad. Rangers can be good.
The_Shaman 11-05-07, 04:04 AM	On druids I'm inclined to disagree, Danielinthewolvesden. Druids have 5 levels to familiarize themselves with animals before they start shapeshifting, so the learning curve isn't so bad. Plus, the class is strong enough that they can still be viable even without using shapeshift at all.
runestar 11-05-07, 05:51 AM	I dunno, most beginning players tackling fighters typically follow the weapon focus/weapon specialization and power attack/cleave trees and do decently well with that. Hmm...I find they are more likely to opt for stinkers like monkey grip over more useful feat choices such as combat reflexes and improved trip. I personally vote for cleric. Because they can spontaneously cast cure spells, you can't really screw up, unless you did not boost wis. However badly you screw up regarding your spell selection for the day, you can just convert them to healing spells and function as the party healbot.:)
InkBlot 11-05-07, 08:55 AM	Fighter is a good choice. ... A bad spell choice by a Sorc can be REALLY bad. That's an odd statement to make. Sorcerers know far more spells than a fighter knows feats.
Realms of Chaos 11-05-07, 09:18 AM	If you want to simplify as much as possible, try using some of the alternate abilities from the Player's Handbook II. The alternate barbarian ability gets rid of the difficult choice of when to rage. The alternate druid ability is self explanatory and gets rid of the complications of wildshape. The alternate monk ability is much easier to understand than flurry of blows. In addition, many of these abilities also get rid of complications such as special mounts, animal companions, and familiar.
runestar 11-05-07, 09:25 AM	The alternate barbarian ability gets rid of the difficult choice of when to rage. You mean there is a choice outside of raging at the start of combat? I have done some analysis on my own, and concluded that the berserker rage variant is very much inferior to a normal barb with extra rage...
jameswife2003 11-05-07, 08:51 PM	Thanks for everyone's input. Here's what we've decided to do. He's going to play 2 characters, a dwarf fighter and a half-elf sorcerer. I'm going to play a half-elf ranger. We've also decided to play a short campaign, basically playing a few sessions and then deciding whether we want to continue to use these characters. It will also give me a chance to learn the finer points of DMing. That way if we do mess up the characters, we aren't stuck with them for 20+ levels. And we won't have to figure out where we are in the campaign after he goes back to Afghanistan in a few days.