Post/Author/DateTime	Post
swindy 04-30-06, 04:30 PM	It is fairly obvious that fighter and ranger rank the top. Fighter just for the amount of feats plus weapon specialization and such others. And ranger for his obvious talents as archer. But what else? I do like the Rogue/fighter, get the feats a little slower and also have some nice sneak attack if you can get around you're opponents. Maybe even a level in barbarian for an added 10ft move. And also potential composite bow damage with rage, just a thought. What are you're views for a great archer, classes feats, prsetige classes and equipment (such as gloves of dex and braces of archery included). Come on! Hit me with some knowledge and not just you're magic missiles!
Esponer 04-30-06, 04:37 PM	In my experience, well-designed clerics and psychic warriors can be very powerful archers, with judicious use of buffing spells/powers. Clerics are virtually the best at anything with the right build, although thankfully each broken cleric trick (the worst are in supplemental books) are being removed by errata, step by step. The PHB2 will be fixing polymorph to round the job off. Nonetheless, cleric archer builds can be deadly anyway.
swindy 04-30-06, 05:15 PM	Actually that does make sense, cats grace and bulls strength (for composite bows). Does anyone else have any good ideas or pure knowledge of decent archers, what makes them anyway. Because im mainly in for the input of others because as soon as the chance arises to make a new character i do believe im gonna try for an archer. Never tried a ranged combatant (excluding spellcasters). At the moment im mainly leaning towards just the ranger with a possible barbarian level for extra speed. Maybe fighter levels just to gain feats fast. In the words of Johnny 5 "Need input!"
Nephlite 04-30-06, 06:00 PM	From Complete Books: Scout is an awesome archer withthe right feats. The Lurker makes a great one too. One of his powers allows him as a swift action to not provoke when he attacks witha ranged weapon like a bow. He also could use sneak attack ability. Rogue isn't useful unless you find enemy flat footed (like surprise round or you go first in initiative) since I can't think of many ways to deny dex to Ac with a ranged weapon. You can't flank...nope not so good.
Nezkrul 04-30-06, 08:43 PM	The Ninja from the Complete Warrior can be quite deadly as a sniper (and historically they were quite deadly with their hand crossbows, throwing stars, and shurikens) especially if you take a few choice feats, and a shadow dancer level for Hide in Plain Sight. Ranger/Wizard/Arcane Archer builds with a good bow can be insane ranged damage dealers. My favorite build is one I am actually playing now which is Ranger 11/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 18. Order of the Bow initiate can also be a good choice for an archer PrC. For damage dealing pre-epic, the best bow that I've built in game was a Mighty +5 Composite Longbow +1, with Splitting (+3, champions of ruin), Exit Wound (+2, complete warrior), Knockback (+3, complete warrior), and Ghost Touch (+1, d.m.g.). This was requisitioned by my 11 Ranger/1 Wizard/6 Arcane Archer.
Votan 04-30-06, 09:50 PM	In my experience, well-designed clerics and psychic warriors can be very powerful archers, with judicious use of buffing spells/powers. Clerics are virtually the best at anything with the right build, although thankfully each broken cleric trick (the worst are in supplemental books) are being removed by errata, step by step. The PHB2 will be fixing polymorph to round the job off. Nonetheless, cleric archer builds can be deadly anyway. Zen archery just makes the cleric archer silly. All of a sudden the issues with low dextrity simply fail to matter and the cleric can have an 8 DEX and still be a deadly archer. Since any cleric will maximize wisdom, it makes it easy for the cleric to be good at both spells and archery at the same time. Now add in buff spells (Divine Power) and it's unclear to me how the cleric can be easily beaten by a fighter or ranger.
Rerednaw 04-30-06, 10:00 PM	The way I like to play the game? Rangers and Scouts make the best archers. Followed by Fighters and to a lesser extent, rogues due to dexterity and sneak attack synergies. (If we are including psionics, then a Psychic Warrior is decent.) The way WoTC designed the game? Clerics. Aid, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Zen Archery, (Greater) Magic Weapon, Haste, and too many other items to mention...
Krug_the_smasher 04-30-06, 10:18 PM	1) Ranger. No contest. They have the best class features for using bows. 2) Scout. Another awsome class, and with Manyshot, greater manyshot and Skirmish, you just cant lose. 3) Fighter, but just because I cant think of anything else. Thay lack the flavor and fluff of a good bowman. The bonus feats makes it rock, but the stereotypical fighter is Greatsword sheild and heavy armor. rogue is not a good ranged class, simply because you wont find too many flat-footed opponents, and you dont recieve flank because you are using a bow. This starves the class of their best ability.
Necromas 04-30-06, 10:24 PM	Soulbow is also a good class for extra flavor if you want a ranged version of soulknife, they get some nifty abilities too like using soul arrows for AOO's and not provoking AOO's when using em in melee, etc.... Fighter makes a great archer, the bonus feats really do trump the rangers bonus feats, but they dont get any cool ranger abilities, but damn, they get tons of feats that an archer would love to have. And of course, there's the wepon focus/spec line of feats. And you have the option of using a greatbow since you have feats to spare.
BW0222 05-01-06, 04:31 AM	For the standard classes... 1) Fighter. No contest. Rangers get one bonus archery feat at 2nd, and one at 6th. A fighter have bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th. By 10th or so, the difference in feats is staggering. Yes, the ranger can take rapid shot without the point-blank prerequisite, but you neet point-blank for percise and far-shot anyway. For pure combat, the fighter has more feats, more hit points, and most importantly weapon specialization -- which is one of the few ways to add damage to ranged attacks. While most folks would rather play a ranger (due to the nice skill points), a pure fighter will win hands down in a drawn out -- shoot-off. 2) Ranger. Bonus feats in archery do make the difference. 3) Barbarian. Just build for dex. Extra movement and hit points are useful and the skills are nice. 4) Paladin. Although few play it them this way, they can be good archers. Ability scores are hard to get, but an elven paladin with a high dex can be good, especially if they go mounted. Think mongol warriors. Mounted combat and mounted archery, and it is pretty deadly outdoors. Halflings on riding dogs aren't bad either. The mount also tends to serve as a deterent for going after the archer. 5) Druid. Most druid rely on spells, but on an elven druid (a multi-classed druid, or one just taking the bow proficiency) can be good, especially if mounted on an large animal. An elven druid on a tiger is something serious. Share spell with barkskin, stone skin, and/or cat's grace can make up for the lack of BAB. The mobility from the mount along with the mounts attacks makes it hard to get to the druid. A gnome or halfling druid on a riding dog can work also. The druid might also take craft arms or armor, allowing creation of better bows. 6) Cleric. Not so great, but an elven druid or one with the war domain (and a god using a bow) isn't bad. Spells like magic weapon, bless, shield of faith, and entropic shield can help out in archer vs. archer combat. 7) Rogue. I rank them fairly low, because they honestly don't make great archers. Yes, sneak attack is good, but that rarely works more than once per encounter and you need to be within 30' and typically well ahead of the rest of the party. Few rogues survive the next round, other than winning initative and fleeing. An archer honestly needs to be able to operate from the rear of the party. At which point, the rogues sneak attack can't be used and the BAB and hit points just do not cut it.
Kresalak 05-01-06, 04:35 AM	KSB Snow Owl (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604) made some nice archer builds. The PrCs he used are at the top.
Zardnaar 05-01-06, 05:14 AM	Craziest archer I ever saw was a 3.0 Cleric. 3.5 was a min/maxed bard abusing bardic music.
Earthcrosser599 05-01-06, 05:36 AM	Base: Fighter, for all the reasons you already stated. Ranger is a close second because he has Spot as a class skill. PrC: Deepwood Sniper. Hands down. Order of the Bow Initiate if you don't want to overshadow the rest of the party.
Cadfan 05-01-06, 05:43 AM	The fighter has higher sheer damage than the ranger, but the ranger can snipe. The fighter can try to snipe, but without hide as a class skill, is unlikely to be successful. The only major advantage the fighter has, really, is weapon specialization. There just aren't that many ranged combat feats worth taking. The ranger, on the other hand, drags by a couple points of damage per arrow, which can certainly add up. But he gets many skills, some decent class abilities, and some spellcasting.
Necromas 05-01-06, 07:32 AM	There just aren't that many ranged combat feats worth taking. Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Rapid Shot Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow Weapon Focus: Bows Weapon Specialization: Bows Greater Weapon Focus Bows Greater Weapon Specialization: Bows Improved Critical: Bows Mounted Archery Far Shot Shoot on the Run All good fighter bonus feat options for an archer. And who says a feat has to be directly related to archery to be useful? It frees up feat slots for non-archery feats if you want them as well.
gorfnad the shiznit 05-01-06, 07:47 AM	A paladin with Zen Archery and Ranged Smite is nothing to laugh at either. I've also seen some fairly strange monk builds that use bows too. Otherwise scout/mage/arcane archer is one of the best ways to go, or any combo of ranger/scout/order of the bow/deepwood sniper/cragtop archer.
The Equalizer 05-01-06, 09:34 AM	I think that Fighters and Rangers make awesome archers. Most races, because none of the core races get dexterity penalties, could make great archers. I reckon that an elf would make, perhaps, the best depending on what his dexterity score was. Since Elves get weapon proficiency Long bow and shortbow, +2 on spot, and +2 dexterity, they might have the best potential for archery. Don't forget lowlight vision, good at shooting at night. Halflings, based off of their scores, I think would make great archers as well. They get +4 on hide checks, + 1small size bonus on attack rolls, and +2 movesilently, climb, and jump, all great for the makings of a sniper character, dont forget lowlight vision. Those, in my opinion, would be great core races for an archer class. Rangers- Alot of people compare rangers with fighters because a fighter get's extra feats. Alot of people overlook the fact that they also get spells, which could greatly help in their archery. Think Cat's grace, Entangle (to make sure a foe doesn't move, get creative), longstrider, pass without trace, tree stride and alarm to name a few. That's just core material though. There's also Arrowmind, exacting shot, guided shot, hawk eye, and arrow storm. These are all great for archers and is from complete adventurer. Thats all I could think of for ranger spells that might help an arhcery based ranger. Dont forget the animal companion either! Wolves make good companions because of their superior strength, HP, Ac, skills etc. They gain large size and could help in melee. You could also choose a hawk or eagle for a bird's eye view of the land below and afar. Fighters- for obvious reason, also make good snipers. Where a ranger beats a fighter out with spells, superior skills, and an added bonus with favored enemies and animal companions, the fighter makes up for it with his weapon and armor proficencies, bonus feats, and HP. These are the only two classes, based off of my opinions and experience, that would make considerable archers. Theres also the classes from the completes and all that other accesory material, but I feel lazy right now. As far as weapons go, I think exotic weapon proficiency with a Great bow makes for a great ranged weapon of choice, with better damage and range then the other core book bows. From the core books, as far as a weapon with bestowed abilities goes. I'd say any bursting damage, ice burst, shock bursy, flame burst, increases the damage considerably(all +2 enchantment bonuses) and distance (+1 enchantment), seeking(+1) and maybe a bane(+1) thats the +5 limit. Now if you have the complete warrior, which offers acceptably better weapon abilities, theres exit wound, bloodseeking(alot like seeking from the DMG) and explosive. There's also a new magic weapons (ammuntion) burrowing arrow. Mithril armor is also good for a character, better Ac then leather with lessened penalties and speel failure. Well, there's some advice. Someone correct it, add to it or whatever.
snowstrider 05-01-06, 12:09 PM	dont forget the ranger's favored enemy, I dont recall if that increases his damage, but I'm pretty sure it increases his attack, against that particular enemy. Favored enemy fighters beware!
swindy 05-01-06, 12:46 PM	The ranger doesn't gain any attack bonus but gains a damage bonus. Very useful against the undead. Wow. Quite a lot of replies, just a shame i dont have any completes :weep: Nevermind eh? I guess the rogue does stink a bit. Keep em coming folks.
Czavier 05-01-06, 01:04 PM	right now i'm playing a 7th lvl cleric, 2nd lvl holy avenger. Its a homeade prestige class, as described here... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=630394
Seerow 05-01-06, 01:07 PM	I'm going to be the oddball and say Warmage. Seriously, play the Warmage as an archer rather than a Wizard (If you like, discuss with your DM the possibility of replacing his materials with an arcane bow focus or something similar, so he "shoots" his spells) and it really fits quite well. Edit: Response to the post directly above this, realize that at 7th level a cleric has a BAB of +5, thus he can't meet the +6 BAB requirement given in your prestige class. Just sayin'
The_Shaman 05-01-06, 02:07 PM	Well, doesn't the warmage have poor BAB? Why not use him instead of a wizard/sorc and do arcane archer?
Krug_the_smasher 05-01-06, 02:43 PM	Well, doesn't the warmage have poor BAB? Why not use him instead of a wizard/sorc and do arcane archer? I dont have Carc in front of me, but i think it has cleric Bab. But, sorc would be better than warmage, because of better spell progression, and more spells avaliable. The warmage cant get True strike, and other buff spells such as Cats grace.
Weirdogre 05-01-06, 02:55 PM	I know that the common theme is is either fighter or ranger, but take a look at the Incarnum handbook, and you'll see a class named the Soulborn. It's a full BAb progression class that eventually gets access to incarnum soulmelds. I made one as an archer, with specific melds (the +dam on ranged weapons, +init, and blink ones caught my char's eye). He eventually got to the point where he was adding like +10 damage to every ranged attack. I dont have the book in front of me, so i cant totally call specifics, but you should definitely check it out.
Klytus 05-01-06, 02:58 PM	The ranger doesn't gain any attack bonus but gains a damage bonus. Very useful against the undead. Wow. Quite a lot of replies, just a shame i dont have any completes :weep: Nevermind eh? I guess the rogue does stink a bit. Keep em coming folks. Just give that rogue greater invisibility, and all of a sudden, the sneak attacks happen a lot more frequently. Just ask the pixie rogue in our games who uses a short bow to devestating effect. That having been said, I imagine that a rogue/wizard/arcane trickster would make one nasty archer. Get them feats like point blank shot and precise shot for their ray spells, which they apply just as well to bows, mix in the arcane spells, and you have the sniper from the deepest pits of hell.
Lord Ian Stark 05-01-06, 03:10 PM	PrC: Deepwood Sniper. Hands down. Order of the Bow Initiate if you don't want to overshadow the rest of the party. I totaly agree. That PrC from 3.0 was great. Not overpowered, just the best archer PrC out there. Swindy, there's your answer.
Wonton2006 05-01-06, 03:24 PM	I THINK there's a feat that allows you to somehow use a thrown weapon in a way that denies your enemy's dex bonus. Am I correct?
Seerow 05-01-06, 03:26 PM	I dont have Carc in front of me, but i think it has cleric Bab. But, sorc would be better than warmage, because of better spell progression, and more spells avaliable. The warmage cant get True strike, and other buff spells such as Cats grace. Reply With Quote Actually no, it has poor BAB. But the reason to think of a Warmage as an Archer rather than an arcanist is because he -doesn't- get those spells. Note that Warmage DOES get True Strike, if not the others. I actually just got done doing a conversion from Warmage (based from me feeling inspired after posting in this thread) to a more archer-esque class, if you're interested. Shouldn't be hard to find =P
The Equalizer 05-01-06, 04:19 PM	Well, dont give up totally on the rogue. Coupled with the right PRCs, he/she can make a great archer class. With the rogues versatile skill selection, you could easily buff up his Movesilently, hide, climb, and other skills that would help in a stealth type archery character. If you were going for more of an evil approach, you could cross class him with an assassin. A rogue would probably start off just using his Sneak attack to get an upper hand from afar. Once your able to cross class with an assassin, however, you could make him into a hitman type character. Observe the target for a while, one shot one kill. After that he could rely on spells like spider climb, True strike, and fog. (I think that's what it's called) I think that would make a good rogue sniper type., though. That's just off of the top of my head. As for archer PRCs, I think they are too limited. Unless you were playing an elven archer, they are really not much use. But if so, go ahead and check them out. There are probably other PRCs tha would compliment a rogue archer, but i'm sure someone else will post em.
Elemental_Master 05-01-06, 04:34 PM	I would go all fighter but maybe ask the DM to sub heavy and medium armor for something like more skills... nah! Maybe precise shot or watever its name was... it gave an extra d8/every 3 lvl) to damage and i think was a ful attck. Wat ever. But yeah Fighter with out the full plate prejudice definetly kicks buut. And if you run out of archer feats hand him a long sword and some more specializatrion and u got ur second fighter.
Ruhl-Than Sage 05-01-06, 05:18 PM	You guys seem to be undervaluing the Psychic Warrior as an archer: Feats: Zen Archery (they are a wisdom based class like the Cleric) Psionic Shot Greater Psionic Shot Psionic Meditation Fell Shot Psicrystal Affinity + Crystal Containment Powers: Precognition, Offensive Prescience, Offensive Hustle Wallwalker It's best to multiclass after about 6 levels or so, but you can gain a lot from the class.
swindy 05-01-06, 05:27 PM	Right i have made my lil archer (hopefully of doom). Here we go. Race:Human/blue half-dragon Classes: 4levels in fighter 1level in barbarian (wanted speed plus a little more combat) and 8levels of Order Of The Bow Initiate = 13 and thats currently the level the game is at. Abillities (i'll do them after the half dragon extras kicked in) Str 22 Dex 20 I also put 2 ability upgrades in dex getting 20 and one in wis for 16 Con 18 Int 15 Wis 16 Cha16 AC 20 Armour +5(+2 studded leather) +5(dex) Touch 15 Flat-footed 15 Fort 10 Ref 12 Will 10 BAB 13 Grapple 19 Now it gets fun Feats Point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus longbow, weapon specailization longbow, zen archery, improved intitative, quick draw (if i ever get confronted up close [even though i have close combat shot, meh] i can fwhack em one) and improved critical longbow. Ok, then i had a 25'000 gold budget. I went for a +1 shocking burst composite (+4) longbow +21 to hit, no more than two attacks with rapid shot for two at 19 i do believe, +3 to hit if within 30' with zen archery as feat and class skill. With 1d8 + 9 (10 with precise shot in 30') +1d6 electricity and hopefully 2d10 on a critical. +1 greatsword for manliness more than anyhting. +20 to hit and 2d6 + 7 damage. And dont forget my 60' line of lightning and other juicy half-dragon bonuses. So what d'ya think? And be honest, is he good, bad, tear him up start again, come on, i'm counting on you folks!
2nd Ed Paladin 05-01-06, 05:34 PM	Doesn't Zen Archery let use you WIS instead of DEX for your attack rolls? Your DEX is higher than you WIS so not the most useful feat. Also the half dragon template is +3 LA (I think) so if you are supposed to be an ECL 13 PC you need to drop 3 class levels. Other than that it looks quite effective.
swindy 05-01-06, 05:38 PM	Sorry about this post. I had already pressed submit reply, then noticing an error, pressing stop to change the error then pressing submit again i ended with the original post plus the modified post below. Sorry for the inconvenience. <<< (i hope i spelt that right)
swindy 05-01-06, 05:39 PM	Ah, it states in OOTBI that if you have it as a feat aswell as it as a class feature, you get you're wisdom AND you're dexterity bonus. I thought that was amazing. I guess i should of stated that everyone else in the group are ECL characters and my current one is also half-dragon, sorry. And thank you for replying quickly letting me know he is quite effective, i thank you sir.
Yarbogash 05-01-06, 06:06 PM	Looks like a good character and I don't want to dump on your fun, I love half-dragons,,, But wow, some people do not know much about making archers. As some have hinted the best archers are indeed clerics. Elf, use the Elf (PB Shot) and War Domains (Weapon Focus). Zen Archery is nice but not necessary. The Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge are also fine. Favored Soul is good but Cleric is tops; weapon built around Greater Magic Weapon, prots, combat enhancements that can last hours and hours, Anti-Life and Repulsion, if you are using a lot of Complete's and other WoTC books more weapon damage buffs than you can dream of and the right build means no buffing needed immediately before combat. Spell economy is not an issue. At higher levels you should not run out of spells unless you are literally in a war. The archers main weakness is damage arc leveling compared to melee damage increasing. The archer can get more attacks but against the high CR critters DR it's a problem. The fighter alone will not be able to do anywhere near as much to remedy this. The Hexblade 4/Fighter or Ranger 2/Arcane Archer is also great. Below level 8 the fighter is a viable choice. After that comparatively Fighter is the worst of this bunch.
Lord Ian Stark 05-01-06, 06:19 PM	Swindy you didn't like the Deepwood Sniper?
swindy 05-01-06, 06:23 PM	But wow, some people do not know much about making archers. Thats why i started this thread, and people did tell quite a lot of useful things but, with what i have, thats what i came up with. Still, i appreciate the critique mate. EDIT: To Lord Ian Stark, damn you for posting before me! I don't have any copies of ol' deepwood, but hey, i do like the OOTBI. I think he's quite nice, probably not as good as deepwood, but this is all i have im afraid :weep:
The_Shaman 05-01-06, 06:28 PM	Actually, I'd think FS is a better archer than cleric in most cases. At least, having weapon specialization is a nice thing for a non-fighter; but the strain on their stats is quite big (even with zen archery). Still, with good dice (shrugs)... And while it may not necessarily be a natural choice, the Ronin from CW gets a lot of archery-related bonus feats. Just have it in mind.
Wonton2006 05-01-06, 07:20 PM	Um... dude... There are SO many mistakes with that build... I'll just point out the obvious ones. 1. You have two Rings of protection +1 and are stacking them for a +2?!?! What are you, crazy? Bonuses of the same type towards AC don't stack. 2. Same thing with studded leather and bracers of armor. 3. A +2 shocking burst is a +4, so, a 32,000 GP weapon. 4. Why do you have Zen Archery??? You dex is higher than your wisdom!! 5. How do you get 13 feats? I see 4 for levels, maybe 1 for human, 3 from fighter. I DOUBT that orders of the bow initiate get 5 bonus feats over 8 levels... I could keep going, but I'm not that diligent.
swindy 05-02-06, 03:41 AM	1. You have two Rings of protection +1 and are stacking them for a +2?!?! What are you, crazy? Bonuses of the same type towards AC don't stack. . Ok, i didn't know that. 2. Same thing with studded leather and bracers of armor. Same as above. 3. A +2 shocking burst is a +4, so, a 32,000 GP weapon. Ah, damn yeah. Thanks for pointing that out actually. 4. Why do you have Zen Archery??? You dex is higher than your wisdom!! I did state this earlier, if you have zen archery as a feat, and when you gain it again in Order Of The Bow Initiate, you're dex and wis modifiers stack within 30ft. 5. How do you get 13 feats? I see 4 for levels, maybe 1 for human, 3 from fighter. I DOUBT that orders of the bow initiate get 5 bonus feats over 8 levels.... Uh, i have nine, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon speacilization, improved critical, quicdraw, improved initiative and zen archery. The other bonuses come from Order Of The Bow Initiate. I'll go back and fine tune him.
Dhavaer 05-02-06, 03:56 AM	What about Hexblade, to get into Arcane Archer?
zerotkatama 05-02-06, 04:21 AM	What OOBI are you looking at? The OOBI in CW says nothing about gaining Zen Archery.
Valthonis 05-02-06, 05:38 AM	2) Scout. Another awsome class, and with Manyshot, greater manyshot and Skirmish, you just cant lose. combine it with Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior makes it very effective. Extra damage every 2 levels and increase your precision based damage range to 60ft, it can be a very powerful build.
ninjarabbit 05-02-06, 10:33 AM	I think the cleric wins hands down. With divine persistant divine favor and divine power you're just as good as any fighter or ranger, there are many domains that help with archery like elf, time, planning, and war, and you still have full spellcasting.
solbergb 05-02-06, 10:43 AM	I'd have to say ranger, fighter or some kind of ranger/fighter multiclass makes the best "volley" archer for most games. Such an archer makes the most of any area buffs (prayer etc) cast on the party, and is pretty formidable all by himself if he stocks a varied assortment of ammunition for DR penetration. Rangers are better at alternating volleys with stealth+close range multishot type sniping than fighters. Fighters pretty much just do raw damage and hit all the time, they lack the skill points to enter into the stealth/alertness game that many archers and all snipers play. The best "snipers" are rogues and to a lesser extent scouts. Unlike the volley-archers they can do a lot of damage with just about any weapon. However they're often kind of useless in a straight up fight, once surprise is over. There are ways around this, but a core-only sniper is pretty much "move+hide then sneak attack" which means you are "sniping" from 30' or less, and getting only one attack a round. (there are noncore feats and spells that open up other options, but this is the traditional D&D sniper) Cleric archers and bard archers can hold their own, but are more dependent either on feats that folks may not allow (DMM persistent or DMM quicken based cleric builds, Arcane Disciple+war domain (divine power) for arcane builds) or on buffing then fighting (Core clerics and pretty much all bards). There is a variant of arcane archer that is mostly wizard with only two levels of arcane archer that does ok in the 10-20 game by piling on buffs like flame arrow, sonic weapon, greater magic weapon, etc and alternating that with more traditional 'zaps' delivered via the L2 arcane archer ability. You can also build a fairly decent eldritch knight type build along the same lines.
Lotus Crane 05-02-06, 11:35 AM	The archer can get more attacks but against the high CR critters DR it's a problem. Actually, archers should have less problems with DR than any other build. As long as you have a +1 sure striking bow (weapon property from PGtF), you can just use adamantine, cold iron, and silver arrows when necessary. That's far more cost effective than the proverbial "golf bag of weapons" for a 3.5 melee character. Getting back to the OP's question, in order of overall effectiveness, I'd say: 1) Rangers. Even taking into account all of the archery feats in the Complete series and other books, an archery path ranger can still take most if not all of the important ones (10 feats, 11 if human) by 20th level; a fighter is going to cap out and start scraping the bottom of the barrel before then. More importantly, in some games, sniping is a critical component of archery, and the ranger has Hide, Spot, Camouflage, and Hide in Plain Sight, while the fighter doesn't. Finally, the Complete Books provided several new ranger spells that directly apply to archery, such as being able to make an attack on all[ enemies within 1 range increment, being able to make AoO's with a bow, being able to not provoke AoO's from making a ranged attack, and so forth. 2) Fighters. More feats is certainly nice, but considering an archery path ranger is already getting 10-11 anyway, it mostly serves to just let fighters finish up their archery feat chains earlier. After a certain point, it's better for a fighter to just go into an archery PrC and start gaining abilities that can't be taken as feats. It's even possible that a fighter/PrC could eventually become a better archer than a pure ranger, but then that's not really a fair comparison anymore; when somebody brings up a "fighter vs ranger" argument, they should be comparing a pure fighter vs a pure ranger, not a fighter/PrC vs a ranger.. 3) 3-way tie between clerics, psychic warriors, and scouts. For starters, medium BAB really hurts any sort of primary combat build (the incarnate notwithstanding). But getting past that, all three classes offer some other archer incentives, though with costs and restrictions that make them slower or less reliable than rangers and fighters. 3a: Clerics with Zen Archery can be impressive when buffed up, but that buffing requires 2-3 rounds (and I've banned Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell in my games, so there's no way for my clerics to get around that). Some combats will be over by then, while in other combats, it might have been more efficient for the cleric to just use flame strike or fire storm in those first 2-3 rounds. 3b: Psychic warriors with the correct psionic archery feats are also fairly impressive, but there are a couple of problems. Even with Psionic Meditation, there are only so many attacks a psychic warrior can make at full strength; there are a lot of situations where he'll have to choose between making a full attack without the benefit of his psionic feats, or just a standard attack with them. And compared to a cleric, a psychic warrior can ill afford to set up 2-3 buffs on himself, since he can manifest far fewer powers than a cleric can cast spells, before running out of power points. 3c: Scouts have much of the ranger's sniping abilities, and skirmish is certainly nice for an archer (in fact for a ranged attacker, skirmish is arguably better than sneak attack in many situations). However, aside from already suffering from medium BAB, a scout has less feats than a ranger, and lacks the ranger's wonderful archery spells.
swindy 05-02-06, 12:28 PM	What OOBI are you looking at? The OOBI in CW says nothing about gaining Zen Archery. I don't have any completes, as mentioned earlier. But i do have sword and fist and song and silence, so thats where my OOTBI comes from, sword and fist.
solbergb 05-02-06, 01:46 PM	getting back to the fighter vs ranger point. All fighters get instead of the lack of skills vs ranger is more to-hit plusses and more damage plusses in the form of greater weapon focus/spec. A ranger can keep up vs his favored enemies. All other things being equal, the fighter does better at raw damage output than anybody else (PRC or not) up through level 12 (at that point, a fighter+PRC is better, greater weapon spec caps what a fighter/archer can do from the fighter feat chains). Most folks don't consider the extra damage worth the loss of skills/class abilities/crappy saves/etc. But I've seen some extremely effective NPC archers that were pure fighters, because their one-dimensional nature didn't matter and their ability to hit and damage PC's did. I also know a Ranger1/FighterXXX archer specialized around outsider and undead slaying who feels more like a ranger than a fighter (in that he just destroys his "favored enemies" and is only a medium power archer vs everything else). He has extremely high attack rolls for his level and the only thing really holding him back is his 14 strength. He has pretty much every useful archer feat by 11, even getting an extra human feat. I suspect he'll stick with fighter till greater weapon spec and bail out at 13th, maybe going into occult slayer after that. Frankly, there aren't any PRC class abilities that trump extra damage on each shot, or that trump what improved precise shot does for you, and precious few that stand up to noncore feats like improved rapid shot and woodland archer or noncore spells like guided shot, arrow mind and for the snipers, the spell that lets you sneak at any distance. Back in 3.0, deepwoods sniper (or whatever it was called) that gave improved crit and crit multiples for free was pretty much superior to existing feats, but no 3.5 options are wildly superior at the basic role. For specialized things...yeah, close combat shot from OOTBI is nice if you actually want to be in melee for some reason, and cragtop archer is the only one that can literally shoot for the horizon reliably (although guided shot comes close). Pious templar is also favored, for the save bonuses and the weapon spec, and occult slayer has definate advantages for an archer worried about his squishy will save and who often readies attacks to interrupt spells.
Votan 05-02-06, 05:04 PM	getting back to the fighter vs ranger point. All fighters get instead of the lack of skills vs ranger is more to-hit plusses and more damage plusses in the form of greater weapon focus/spec. A ranger can keep up vs his favored enemies. All other things being equal, the fighter does better at raw damage output than anybody else (PRC or not) up through level 12 (at that point, a fighter+PRC is better, greater weapon spec caps what a fighter/archer can do from the fighter feat chains). I think that Arrow Storm (Ranger 3 from the Spell Compendium, swift action to cast) has a dramtic effect on the Ranger's effectiveness vs. large numbers of foes. The clarifications that you can't use swift actions in things like wands mean that this is a major edge for the Ranger who bothers to get the spell slots. It's only good against large numbers of foes but, in this setting, it does wonderful things. The fighter does not appear to compensate for that with +2 to hit and +4 to damage although I'll admit the ability to add this to every roll isn't insignificant.
Grey_Mage 05-02-06, 05:46 PM	He... my favorite archers have turned out at level 20 something like this: Ranger10, Fighter 8, Horizon Walker 2. Human... with the able learner feat and ranger as my first class... Take weapon spec feats from the fighter... archery feats and all that goodness. Ranger provides good skill points and some much needed feats. Horizon walker adds in a couple nifty abilities, like dark vision, and isnt bad on the HD or Skillpoints either. Put alot of money into a good bow and decent armor... maybe some boots of striding and springing... it works out really nice.
swindy 05-02-06, 06:51 PM	Right i have mad the proper adjustments to my build above. Now how is he?
aelryinth 05-02-06, 08:25 PM	Order of the Bow is only good for the Zen Archery and Shoot in COmbat. I think that's a two level dip. Go with Deepwood Sniper after that. Ranger levels, and then you want your most coveted spell...Hunter's Mercy. Snow Owl's example of Hunter's Mercying Ranger/Deepwood sniper using a Burst Bow just gets really, really sick. Since every shot is a crit, every arrow is doing like +4-40 per Burst enchantment on your bow...in addition to multiplying your fixed dmg. The extra damage from Order of the Bow is only on flat footed opponents (3.0). Except for the first couple levels, its a useless class. 3.5 is a little better, as they get bonus dmg per arrow with a standard action. Makes them great siege archers, with the dmg/arrow really high...but not so impressive as adventurers where dmg/round is the key thng. ==Aelryinth
Earthcrosser599 05-03-06, 03:42 AM	Is there any way you can take the Deepwood Sniper even further with the Shatter Bolts in the Dragon Compendium? They say they make the bolt an 18-20/x3...I assume that translates to the entire crossbow's damage (not really sure on this, I think there's quite a few typos in that book). Using the Deepwood Sniper critical multiplier increase, and the old Improved Critical from Deities & Demigods (I think it was in Sword and Fist, too). Using the Burst scheme on a crossbow as mentioned above and you might be in business once per day and not too shabby for the rest (15-20/x5, anyone?). Maybe I got my math wrong...
drunkendrake 05-05-06, 07:18 PM	The idea of using rage to get massive damage with a comp bow has a flaw: When your'e not in rage, you can't use the bow without having a penalty. looking at this thread, there are plenty of better options anyway. also, are there rules for Deepwoods Sniper in 3.5?
swindy 05-06-06, 03:35 AM	I also did state reasons why i cant take certain classes. Has everyone got selective reading or something. And i stated why i did take barbarian. It was for the speed more than anything else. But, i've decided not to bother on the actual character sheet. Sticking with just 5 levels fighter, and 8 in OOTBI. And eventually work my way up as fighter up to level 12 for greater weapon focus and greater weapon specalization.
The_Shaman 05-10-06, 05:03 AM	By the way, which classes would you favor for a crossbowman... eh, I mean crossbowdwarf?
solbergb 05-10-06, 01:01 PM	For a crossbowman, the main difference is you don't need strength but you do need a couple extra feats to make it work. Rapid reload at minimum, and that new PHBII feat that adds half dex mod to damage is also pretty essential, to keep up with the bow-archers.
Necromas 05-10-06, 04:35 PM	Monks actually make suprisingly good archers if you can get your hands on a good Ki Focus bow. (Ki Focus property makes any weapon a special monk weapon, costs +1 enhancement bonus) Because of the Ki Focus property, you can use the monks flurry of blows ability with the bow, which really outshines the manyshot feats in the higher levels. The cost of an extra +1 enhancement bonus isn't that big of a deal, but you always have to be careful with a build relying on a specific kind of item. With Zen archery, you can pump your wis through the roof. Or dex based if you want to use weapon finesse with your unarmed strikes. A monk archer wouldn't really get any specific advantages over other archers aside from zen archery synergy and flurry, but they retain all the cool cheesy monk features and good melee capability. Once you get greater flurry at level 11, you can multiclass out of monk and take whatever archer PrC you prefer. If you use a full BAB class, you get 17/17/17/12/7/2 Flurry AB, which is pretty dang good. Of course, that 12th monk level would keep the same BAB, bet get a step up in unarmed damage (1d10=>2d6), abundant step (great way to move around the battlefield, which can be crucial for an archer), another level of pefect saves, and an additional 10ft to move speed and slow fall distance. P.S. Well damn, can't Ki Focus a bow, I feel stupid now.
swindy 05-10-06, 06:53 PM	Monks actually make suprisingly good archers if you can get your hands on a good Ki Focus bow. (Ki Focus property makes any weapon a special monk weapon, costs +1 enhancement bonus) Because of the Ki Focus property, you can use the monks flurry of blows ability with the bow, which really outshines the manyshot feats in the higher levels. The cost of an extra +1 enhancement bonus isn't that big of a deal, but you always have to be careful with a build relying on a specific kind of item. With Zen archery, you can pump your wis through the roof. Or dex based if you want to use weapon finesse with your unarmed strikes. A monk archer wouldn't really get any specific advantages over other archers aside from zen archery synergy and flurry, but they retain all the cool cheesy monk features and good melee capability. Once you get greater flurry at level 11, you can multiclass out of monk and take whatever archer PrC you prefer. If you use a full BAB class, you get 17/17/17/12/7/2 Flurry AB, which is pretty dang good. Of course, that 12th monk level would keep the same BAB, bet get a step up in unarmed damage (1d10=>2d6), abundant step (great way to move around the battlefield, which can be crucial for an archer), another level of pefect saves, and an additional 10ft to move speed and slow fall distance. P.S. Well damn, can't Ki Focus a bow, I feel stupid now. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Necromas 05-10-06, 07:36 PM	:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Yes but you just spammed, so ha! And in the regards to the rage bow thing, I do believe there is at least one unique bow somewhere that has the ability to automatically be composite for whatever the wielders strength score is. Or you could houserule a magic property that changes the composite rating when the character rages.