Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OutlawJT 02-15-07, 10:56 AM	I am joining a standard 25 point buy 1st level game tonight and am looking for advice on classes to consider. Almost everything 3.5 is allowed except the Eberron and Forgotten Realms material. I'd love to play something different, both race and class wise. The only race restrictions are no LA and it can't be from the above campaign settings. Alright, let the flood of suggestions begin!
PoorHobo 02-15-07, 11:01 AM	How can we suggest something different if we don't know what you played previously?
Zumarai 02-15-07, 11:04 AM	As for people complaining about MAD characters and 25 Point Buy: Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What's wrong with that?
OutlawJT 02-15-07, 11:06 AM	How can we suggest something different if we don't know what you played previously? I've played a ranger, wizard, druid, cleric, rogue, swordsage, and scout previously. I meant different in a more general sense, though. As in, something you don't normally see in the average adventuring party. I didn't mean specifically something different from what I've played before.
WayneTheGame 02-15-07, 11:09 AM	As for people complaining about MAD characters and 25 Point Buy: Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What's wrong with that? Because its not uber-l33t stats.
Jaxgaret 02-15-07, 11:19 AM	Dragon Shamans are certainly different. And are pretty decent in the low to mid levels.
Greendevilman 02-15-07, 11:19 AM	Depends on how long you're planning on going but I've liked Beguilers ever since they came out. Not the strongest in combat, but amazing outside of it and with a bit of creativity they can do some amazing things. Careful choice with their Advanced Learning can either help cover their weaknesses or enhance their strengths. They're good in most campaign types from roleplaying intensive low powered (just being the Beguiler) to high powered tactically oriented combat fests (Shadowcraft Mage->Killer Gnome). The only time I wouldn't suggest them is if you think you'll be facing a lot of mindless undead/vermin/constructs. I think its a good fit because Beguilers arn't that MAD and the play style is quite a bit different than most other classes, while still adding to the group in fairly straightforward ways (at a minimum you make a good skill/trapmonkey and party face).
Orchomenos 02-15-07, 11:35 AM	A warforged fighter is definitively different, very playable with a 25 point-buy, but unfortunately Eberron-specific. What about an halfling fighter with his riding dog mount? You only need a great str, average dex & con, & fair cha (for handle animal). A gnome with a dire badger could be good too, but the badger is more powerful than a riding dog and would require DM approbation.
Repeekluos 02-15-07, 11:44 AM	As far as the "Different" goes... TOTEMIST! A great class. Super, super versatile, and a great melee class.
OutlawJT 02-15-07, 11:45 AM	As far as the "Different" goes... TOTEMIST! A great class. Super, super versatile, and a great melee class. What book is it from and what's the focus and flavor of the class?
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 11:48 AM	Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What's wrong with that? Said character has a +2 to hit. That means he has a craptastic chance of actually doing something useful in combat as a martial character. His whole job is to hit stuff, and he can't. Here are some CR 1 (or less) critters. small air elemental, CR 1: AC 17 -- 30% chance to hit cat, CR 1/4: AC 14 -- 45% chance to hit (The cat has a higher attack bonus.) Darkmantle, CR : AC 17 -- 30% chance to hit lemure, devil, CR 1: AC 14 -- 45% chance to hit dire rat, CR 1/3: AC 15 -- 40% chance to hit dog, riding, CR 1: AC 16 -- 35% chance to hit In fact, let's compare the level one Monk to the level one Druid's animal companion: a riding dog. HP: The monk has 10 hp. The dog has 13. Winner: dog. Initiative: Monk +1, Dog +2. Winner: dog. Speed: Monk 30', Dog 40'. Winner: dog. Armor Class: Monk 13, Dog 19. Winner: dog. Grapple: Monk +2 (+6), Dog +3. Winner: feat dependent. Attack: Monk +2 (1d6+2), Dog +3 (1d6+3 plus Trip). Winner: dog. Full Attack: Monk 2 fists at +0 (1d6+2), Dog +3 (1d6+3 plus Trip). Winner: dog. Special Qualities: Winner: dog. Saves: Monk +4/+3/+4, Dog +5/+5/+1. Winner: tie. The Druid in the party has class features that are more powerful than your entire class. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)
Seerow 02-15-07, 11:52 AM	You forgot to mention the dog can have barding, while the Monk can't have armor. So that AC difference becomes even more pronounced.
Arcane Guyver 02-15-07, 11:56 AM	It's like a druid-ish/ranger-ish user of incarnum. Duskblade is like a fighter with less hit points but with an ok spell progression. Divine mind is like a paladin that uses some psionics and focuses on auras. Shugenja is like a divine sorcerer with a more restricted spell list, but more HP and skill points. Spellthief is like a rogue/sorcerer 20-level PRC, where you can steal magic and throw it right back at the spellcaster. I really don't know what to suggest...just pick a base class that you like, there's a ton of 'em out there.
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 11:58 AM	Oh, yeah. Studded leather barding! +3 AC!
IdleAltruism 02-15-07, 12:14 PM	An Illumian from the races of destiny. Barbarian/Wizard/Rage Mage(from the complete warrior), now thats something you don't see every day. Stats 16,12,12,13,10,8 Use the Illumian word Aeshkrau and advance str every 4 levels. Get an int boosting item as needed when you need a higher Int to cast spells. Don't use any spells with a DC save, just your standard buffs and useful spells like fly and dimension door.
Ventifax 02-15-07, 12:34 PM	Marshal, Minis Handbook. I suggest human or halfling. Take Motivate Wisdom or Motivate Dexterity at first level, & that feat (um... one of the Complete books?) that lets you substitute your Charisma mod for your Wisdom in Will saves. You can boost everyone's Spot checks or everyone's initiative, & use Wisdom as a dump stat.
Repeekluos 02-15-07, 12:52 PM	What book is it from and what's the focus and flavor of the class? It is out of Magic of Incarnum. The whole book is great, and Totemist sticks out as my favorite. Think Druid and Barbarian mixed together, and sprinkle in some incarnum sweetness, and voila! It has a lot to do with magical beasts, and protections against them. It binds the souls of said beasts, and extrapolates some of their abilities. They get a decent number of skills, and not too bad skill selection. 2 good saves, and a medium BaB. I would suggest reading it and seeing if you like it. If you dont, go Druid. Flavorful, and uber powerful to boot.
OutlawJT 02-15-07, 01:25 PM	:bump: Some great ideas so far. The more ideas I get in here the better. I only have till 5pm to review them though, so keep em coming!!
Caliborn 02-15-07, 01:38 PM	As for people complaining about MAD characters and 25 Point Buy: Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What's wrong with that? First of all it's a Monk, and therefore is sub par if not an outright failure, secondly with a Cha 8 it's a monk that no one cares about, Third and finally he's got an AC of 13, 10 hp, and an attack bonus of +2, +0 if you want to make use of one of the Monk's most prominent class features, as a melee character; does this sound even remotely viable to you, let alone "the best"? Monk=Fail; Monk+25 PB=Dire Fail.
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 02:04 PM	:bump: Some great ideas so far. The more ideas I get in here the better. I only have till 5pm to review them though, so keep em coming!! Will the game go past 1st? Because if so, then you can do some really entertaining stuff with the Aberrant feats from Lords of Madness. For example: Human Druid 1 -- Aberration Blood, Inhuman Reach Druid 2 Druid 3 -- Deepspawn The funny thing is that you now definitively keep all that crap while wild shaped, so you can, at 5th level, turn into a fleshraker dinosaur that has (including the effects of the feats) 10' reach +10 grapple Did I mention that there's poison on the claws and tail? The confusing bloody thing is whether you retain the flight speed of Starspawn, the tentacles of Deepspawn, etc. Alternate form states that you lose the natural attacks and movement modes of the original form but retain all your feats. Well, if you retain your feats, then they're granting tentacles and a fly speed. So bloody craptastically written ... :banghead:
Archangel62 02-15-07, 02:09 PM	Hrm, well if you have Tome of Magic the Binder can be fun and can function on 25 pb (it won't be uber but it will be workable)
Nezkrul 02-15-07, 02:16 PM	I'd say try a warlock if you already haven't. With 25 point buy you can do this build if you want high save dc's and good social modifiers: Str-8 Dex-14 Con-10 Int-12 Wis-8 Cha-17 Or if you just want to be a blasty guy with cool abilities, this would be better: Str-10 Dex-16 Con-13 Int-14 Wis-8 Cha-10
DarknessEternal 02-15-07, 04:14 PM	Said character has a +2 to hit. That means he has a craptastic chance of actually doing something useful in combat as a martial character. His whole job is to hit stuff, and he can't. What makes you think that is the purpose of Monk? When I see medium base attack, penalties to attack rolls, and low damage on proficient weapons, the first thing that comes to my mind is "this is not a melee combatant." You've somehow arrived at the opposite conclusion.
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 04:47 PM	What exactly is the purpose of the monk, then? 'Cause I can't seem to figure one out. (Aside from scouting.) The monk looks like a poorly designed melee class. Oh, wait. It is.
Caliborn 02-15-07, 04:59 PM	What makes you think that is the purpose of Monk? When I see medium base attack, penalties to attack rolls, and low damage on proficient weapons, the first thing that comes to my mind is "this is not a melee combatant." You've somehow arrived at the opposite conclusion. What can a monk do at first level? Hit things poorly, sneak, hear stuff well, and earn enough money to stay at a decent inn by using tumble as a perform skill. He's not even especially good at running away yet. Monk=Poor Melee Combatant Monk!=skill monkey Monk!=spellcaster Monk!=healer Monk!=support character You tell me what this abomination is useful for, because I honestly don't see it. And don't you go on about flavor or role playing; role playing is best when it has a casual relationship with mechanics, not when they're married. I'm not just trolling this thread by the way, I already answered the OP in his mirror thread on the CO boards. Edit: There, fixed just for you. ;)
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 05:57 PM	Could you use != for not-equal and == for equal? It'd make things easier to understand for us programmer types. :) Edit: Thanks. :D
danielinthewolvesden 02-15-07, 07:58 PM	What is the rest of the party running? Different? Then I second Jaxgaret's idea of Dragon Shaman.Or there's the Spirit Shaman.
WayneTheGame 02-15-07, 09:07 PM	So... a +2 bonus is bad for a melee character?! :eek: :confused: Or is that just for a Monk? I guess you need an 18 to be any good :rolleyes:
Seerow 02-15-07, 09:15 PM	It is when it's your ONLY bonus. For comparison, the Fighter has a +3 to hit with those stats, +4 with Weapon Focus. And since he has less MAD he could get a 16 and have a +4-5 and still have better AC and hit points than you. And that's a FIGHTER.
NineInchNall 02-15-07, 11:50 PM	So... a +2 bonus is bad for a melee character?! Yes. A total attack bonus of +2 is bad for a melee character. Did you not see the attack rates I posted earlier? Huh? Simple statistical comparison shows that a common house cat is likely to take the sample Monk for a clawed ride.
Archangel62 02-16-07, 01:38 AM	So... a +2 bonus is bad for a melee character?! :eek: :confused: Or is that just for a Monk? I guess you need an 18 to be any good :rolleyes: The monk is built with the pretext of combat, but between physical skills and the like the monk will have to put more feats into catching up than to being effective. As Belkar said in OotS, "So you're given a metric ton of class abilities to make up for the fact that a guy with a greataxe and chainshirt can totally own your ass"
danielinthewolvesden 02-16-07, 02:19 AM	Yes. A total attack bonus of +2 is bad for a melee character. Did you not see the attack rates I posted earlier? Huh? Simple statistical comparison shows that a common house cat is likely to take the sample Monk for a clawed ride. Wrong. The cat does 1 point of damage per attack. Sure, it may hit more often. The riding dog is a 2nd level character, so it's not a fair comparison. Altho +2 is not great, the Fighter will only have a +3, only 5% better, and will lose vs the riding dog too.
NineInchNall 02-16-07, 03:38 AM	No, the riding dog is a first level character's class feature. It's a perfectly valid comparison to an entire character. The only reason the tabby loses is that he has half a hit die (which is a totally weird construct, btw). Otherwise ... Here's a better comparison: two house cats have higher expected damage output than the example Monk. That's bad. That's BAD.
Squirrelloid 02-16-07, 03:52 AM	Here's a better comparison: two house cats have higher expected damage output than the example Monk. That's bad. That's BAD. I hope someone else has gotten as much of a laugh out of this as I did. Because its hilarious. Hey, I know people who have lost to a housecat.
Arcane Guyver 02-16-07, 04:11 AM	I believe the problem here is not necessarily the monk, but rather with the druid's animal companion. IMO Monks should get more skill points, as they seem more like a stealthy skill character than a straight-up combatant.
mkill 02-16-07, 05:04 AM	Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 Adding insult to injury: Human Cleric 1 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11 monk / cleric hp: 10 / 10 - tie base attack: +2 / +2 - tie damage: 1d6+2 / 1d8+2 (morning star) - cleric saves: all good / weak ref - monk AC (starting equipment) 13 / 15 (scale mail+light shield) - cleric ... AC (after a few sessions) 13 / 19 (full plate + light shield) - cleric starting feats: unarmed strike + 1 / 2 from domains - tie spellcasting: none / 3 orisons + 3 first-level spells/day - cleric turn undead: none / full level - cleric 4:1 for the cleric, not yet counting spells like magic weapon and shield of faith, and the cleric can purchase a masterwork morning star for another +1 to attack to score 5:1.
Zumarai 02-16-07, 08:57 AM	Adding insult to injury: Human Cleric 1 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11 monk / cleric hp: 10 / 10 - tie base attack: +2 / +2 - tie damage: 1d6+2 / 1d8+2 (morning star) - cleric saves: all good / weak ref - monk AC (starting equipment) 13 / 15 (scale mail+light shield) - cleric ... AC (after a few sessions) 13 / 19 (full plate + light shield) - cleric starting feats: unarmed strike + 1 / 2 from domains - tie spellcasting: none / 3 orisons + 3 first-level spells/day - cleric turn undead: none / full level - cleric 4:1 for the cleric, not yet counting spells like magic weapon and shield of faith ... I'm sure you're aware that comparing any class to C.o.D.zilla is an exercise in futility?
ninjarabbit 02-16-07, 09:12 AM	To be far though the riding dog is on par or even outmatches the other melee classes at level 1, I agree the problem isn't so much the monk but rather the riding dog.
mkill 02-16-07, 09:24 AM	I'm sure you're aware that comparing any class to C.o.D.zilla is an exercise in futility? Who's talking about CoDzilla? It was a mere 1st level cleric without any buff-spells up. If you compare fighter - cleric at that level, the fighter can hold his own, compared to the monk. Human Cleric 1 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11 Domains: War, Strength Morning Star Augment Healing + Extra Turning Human Fighter 1 (sword and board) Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Shield Specialization, EWP+WF Bastard Sword Bastard Sword + Heavy Shield fighter / cleric hp: 12 / 10 - fighter attack (incl. WF): +4 / +3 - fighter damage: 1d10+3 / 1d8+2 (morning star) - fighter saves: good fort / good fort + will - cleric AC: +1 (Dex) +2 (shield) + armor / +0 (Dex) + 1 (shield) + armor - fighter starting feats: 1 / 2 (from domains) - cleric spellcasting: none / 3 orisons + 3 first-level spells/day - cleric turn undead: none / full level - cleric So, fighter against cleric ends up 4:4. While I would not claim they are perfectly balanced at first level, at least the first level fighter is a better melee combatant than the unbuffed first level cleric... the monk is only dreaming about that. I don't expect the monk to keep up with a 20th level cleric (ab)using DMM cheese... but he should be able to compete right at the start.