Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 06:40 PM	I am interested in seeing some of your most effective two-weapon fighter builds. I am creating a recurring villain who's second in command is a blood thirsty two-weapon fighter, eager for any chance to face off against the pcs. Feel free to take classes, prcs, feats, etc. from any dnd book. I guess criteria would be a humanoid race, preferably no spell-casting. Maybe CR 14-15 i suppose, just run with it. Any thoughts?
Seerow 12-22-06, 06:43 PM	Wrong Forum/10
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 06:46 PM	How so? I'm looking for board member's best combination of classes etc.
Roland_of_the_Eld 12-22-06, 06:50 PM	Look for a link to "Character Optimization"
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 06:54 PM	What is with you people? I'm not trying to optimize this guy so he can take on my PC's single handedly, i just want other board members' opinions on how they would put a character like this together.
Sphere 12-22-06, 06:57 PM	What is with you people? I'm trying to optimize this guy so he can take on my PC's single handedly, i just want other board members' opinions on how they would put a character like this together. What part of that isn't CharOp again?
Seerow 12-22-06, 07:00 PM	Obviously if you go to CharOp you'll return with PunPun and no less, because we all know what evil powergames those people over there are.
ledfan 12-22-06, 07:01 PM	lvl 14(or 15) human fighter feats: -1st: -twf -monkey grip* -oversized twf* -2nd: -exotic weapon prof (spiked chain) -3rd: -weapon focus(spiked chain) -4th: -weapon specc. (spiked chain) -6th: -weapon finesse -combat expertise -8th: -improved trip -9th: -improved twf -10th:-greater weapon focus() -12th:-greater twf -greater weapon secc() -14th -improved critical(spiked chain) (15th:-two weapon defense) dual wielding spiked chains gotta love it =D well anyway basic dex based, dual wielding, tripping, spiked chain, fighter build fill it out, and make it your own. (i think it would be especially good for the visciouse fighter you were talking about) *from complete warrior Edit: i would just like to ask one thing: it is it just alot easier to insult a fellow gamer looking for help then to just give him a constructive answer or are you just jerks?
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 07:03 PM	Obviously if you go to CharOp you'll return with PunPun and no less, because we all know what evil powergames those people over there are. Yeah, i mean i'm not trying to create a villain who can counter anything the pcs will have. Without opening my books, i'm thinkin Human for the bonus feat, Fighter for mort feats and BAB, and probably go into Tempest. I'm just curious as to any other, maybe no so straight forward, approaches to this. What part of that isn't CharOp again? I swear, some people will find any reason to say any board is the wrong board for any topic. I guess i can't say it any simpler, i just want board members' ideas that i can bounce off of, not someone to build the character for me at the CharOp boards. Just opinions and ideas, hell.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 07:06 PM	lvl 14(or 15) human fighter feats: -1st: -twf -monkey grip* -oversized twf* -2nd: -exotic weapon prof (spiked chain) -3rd: -weapon focus(spiked chain) -4th: -weapon specc. (spiked chain) -6th: -weapon finesse -combat expertise -8th: -improved trip -9th: -improved twf -10th:-greater weapon focus() -12th:-greater twf -greater weapon secc() -14th -improved critical(spiked chain) (15th:-two weapon defense) That's what i'm talking about. You have a similar approach that i do. I wasn't sure what sort of weapons to give him, but dual wielding a spiked chain is something they sure wont expect. Right on.
ledfan 12-22-06, 07:07 PM	thank you man its been in the back of my head for the longest time :)
Seerow 12-22-06, 07:10 PM	And it's also a terrible build. Nobody should take Two Weapon Defense. Ever. Improved Buckler defense is superior in every way. Monkey Grip doesn't work with Two Weapon Fighting, ever, but you still suck up the to-hit penalties. Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to hold a Spiked Chain in one hand anyway, so the build as a whole is illegal. In all, that build is not ONLY more munchkinish than anything the CharOp boards will give you, but also illegal. Way to go.
ledfan 12-22-06, 07:25 PM	huh? monkey grip doesnt let u do that??? :confused: awww:weep: sry i don't own the book i always thought it was just you could weild weapons as one size higher at a -2 penalty ... and wait a minute you first insult my choice of the 15th lvl feat AND THEN say it's super munchkinish? no no no a munchkin would've taken the best feat at every level dontcha think?
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 07:28 PM	And it's also a terrible build. Nobody should take Two Weapon Defense. Ever. Improved Buckler defense is superior in every way. Monkey Grip doesn't work with Two Weapon Fighting, ever, but you still suck up the to-hit penalties. Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to hold a Spiked Chain in one hand anyway, so the build as a whole is illegal. In all, that build is not ONLY more munchkinish than anything the CharOp boards will give you, but also illegal. Way to go. Dude, what is your deal? He is just trying to help, and the only way you can express yourself is to completely insult and belittle any and all assistance he is offering?
ledfan 12-22-06, 07:32 PM	o wait and sry im a little slow at this, but... at the beginning you said this was a terrible build and at the end u said it was munchkinish.. wtf?
Oswald Krato 12-22-06, 07:45 PM	Human Monk. You said he was the second-in-command--means he can be Lawful Evil. Greater Mighty Wallop as appropriate, TWF + Flurry of Blows on a quarterstaff...or on his fists. A wondrous item that casts Greater Mighty Wallop at appropriate caster level? That failing, there's always Swash3/Fighter 2/ Dervish + Tempest. Take as needed with scimitars/shortswords (should be piercing or slashing). Throw whatever properties you like on them (wounding would be evil).
nonsi 12-22-06, 08:00 PM	I am interested in seeing some of your most effective two-weapon fighter builds. I am creating a recurring villain who's second in command is a blood thirsty two-weapon fighter, eager for any chance to face off against the pcs. Feel free to take classes, prcs, feats, etc. from any dnd book. I guess criteria would be a humanoid race, preferably no spell-casting. Maybe CR 14-15 i suppose, just run with it. Any thoughts? 15 levels nail it just right with Human Monk 2 / Barbarian 1 / Fighter 12 ECL Class+lvl BAB Saves Special ======================================== ================================= 1) M1 +0 2, 2, 2 Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, FoB, Combat Expertise (1st level), Improved Trip (Human) 2) M2 +1 3, 3, 3 Evasion, Combat Reflex 3) B1 +2 5, 3, 3 Fast Movement (Barb.), Rage 1/day (Barb.), Weapon Focus (Kama) (3rd level feat) 4) F1 +3 7, 3, 3 2WF 5) F2 +4 8, 3, 3 Improved Disarm 6) F3 +5 8, 4, 4 Dodge (6th level feat) 7) F4 +6 9, 4, 4 Weapon Specialization (Kama) 8) F5 +7 9, 4, 4 9) F6 +8 10, 5, 5 Improved 2WF, Mobility (9th level feat) 10) F7 +9 10, 5, 5 11) F8 +10 11, 5, 5 Greater Weapon Focus (Kama) 12) F9 +11 11, 6, 6 Spring Attack (12th level feat) 13) F10 +12 12, 6, 6 2W-Rend (PHB II) 14) F11 +13 12, 6, 6 15) F12 +14 13, 7, 7 Bounding Assault (PHB II), Greater Weapon Specialization (Kama) (15th level feat) Just give him a helm of darkvision, a ring of haste, a medallion of dimension door, boots of expeditious retreat and some serious magical dodge & deflection.
ledfan 12-22-06, 08:03 PM	o and i just thought of something Angelflesh just have him quaf down a potion of enlarge person and your set for my build it would be completely legal then :D ha take that whoever said it was a terrible illegal build :P Edit: o and have him pick up his chains afterward so they don't grow (maybe have him lure the PCs into a trap w/ them (example: PC1: o hey magic spiked chains lets got get it, Rest o' party: w00t some l00t, evil guy: haha (drops down from shadows quafs potion picks up chains and gets to the dirty work) :P
Seerow 12-22-06, 08:13 PM	huh? monkey grip doesnt let u do that??? awww sry i don't own the book i always thought it was just you could weild weapons as one size higher at a -2 penalty ... and wait a minute you first insult my choice of the 15th lvl feat AND THEN say it's super munchkinish? no no no a munchkin would've taken the best feat at every level dontcha think? Munchkinish is bending the rules to suit your whims. It is not necessarily optimized, just the breaking of rules to meet what you want to do. Just so you know, Monkey Grip lets you hold a weapon one size larger than normal, yes. What this does is let you hold a Large Longsword, or a Large Greatsword. It does NOT make two handed weapons one handed weapons. That's the munchkinish part. Two Weapon Defense is just a sign of stupidity. Dude, what is your deal? He is just trying to help, and the only way you can express yourself is to completely insult and belittle any and all assistance he is offering? Yep. Because he posted a build based on a feat that he has no real knowledge of, and because you insist on keeping this topic going in the wrong forum. If nothing else this thread should have died with the people telling you you're in the wrong place, and you going over to CharOp. When someone decides to post something and it's not even right, you bet I'm going to say something about it. 15 levels nail it just right with Human Monk 2 / Barbarian 1 / Fighter 12 Why Fighter12? I'd say get Fighter4, and get a prestige class in there. You have your choice of Dervish, Tempest, Revenant Blade, Frenzied Berserker (possibly some combination of any of these. Frenzied Berserker only with Revenant Blade though. Improved Power Attack with two weapons ftw). I also question Spring Attack. Unless you're using Tempest, by using Spring Attack you're completely giving up your Monk Flurry, your Two Weapon Fighting Feats, basically -everything else you work for- which isn't really cool. Edit: NO. Ledfan, NO. If you are playing 3.5e D&D like the rest of us, not 3.0, no number of size increases will ever let you use a two handed weapon with one hand. Ever. Which is the entire reason Monkey Grip doesn't work the way he said it would.
SephDragoon 12-22-06, 08:14 PM	Actually... I think you CAN twf a spiked chain, but you couldn't weapon finesse it. Weapon finesse allows you to use dex with only weapons sized for you. To twf spiked chains, you'ld have to use spiked chains smaller than your size I think. Lower damage and lower ab, but you could do it that way. Also wouldn't need Monkey Grip (in fact, monkey grip seems counter-intuitive, sinc eit lets you wield the weapon in the same handedness as if it was your own size category).
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 08:21 PM	Hell yeah. Thank you Nonsi and Ledfan, you guys are a great help. Why Fighter12? I'd say get Fighter4, and get a prestige class in there. You have your choice of Dervish, Tempest, Revenant Blade, Frenzied Berserker (possibly some combination of any of these. Frenzied Berserker only with Revenant Blade though. Improved Power Attack with two weapons ftw). I also question Spring Attack. Unless you're using Tempest, by using Spring Attack you're completely giving up your Monk Flurry, your Two Weapon Fighting Feats, basically -everything else you work for- which isn't really cool. Well look at this, all you can do is insult people and bash their builds. Now here you come with a suggestion. If this is the wrong forum, which i still don't believe it is, at least technically, why are you making suggestions? You are only keeping the htread alive by doing so. Why on earth do you think you're some sort of hot shot anyway? Why the hell do you care about this thread being here or in the CharOp boards? I fail to understand why this thread is so offensive towards you. If you don't like it, don't read it or post in it. It's that simple.
AZNsupermarket 12-22-06, 08:25 PM	may I suggest just going rogue? dual weild short short swords - TWF and two weapon fighting is all you need. Then watch the sneak attack stack up! :D
Seerow 12-22-06, 08:26 PM	Actually... I think you CAN twf a spiked chain, but you couldn't weapon finesse it. Weapon finesse allows you to use dex with only weapons sized for you. To twf spiked chains, you'ld have to use spiked chains smaller than your size I think. Lower damage and lower ab, but you could do it that way. Also wouldn't need Monkey Grip (in fact, monkey grip seems counter-intuitive, sinc eit lets you wield the weapon in the same handedness as if it was your own size category). Again, get out of 3.0. It doesn't work. Then again, even if it DID work, weapons innapropriately sized for you don't grant reach. Well look at this, all you can do is insult people and bash their builds. Now here you come with a suggestion. If this is the wrong forum, which i still don't believe it is, at least technically, why are you making suggestions? You are only keeping the htread alive by doing so Because the one thing I despise more than people making the CharOp boards to be some evil munchkinfest is people posting terrible builds and saying they're great, or even decent at what they intend to do.
ledfan 12-22-06, 08:30 PM	Hell yeah. Thank you Nonsi and Ledfan, you guys are a great help. Well look at this, all you can do is insult people and bash their builds. Now here you come with a suggestion. If this is the wrong forum, which i still don't believe it is, at least technically, why are you making suggestions? You are only keeping the htread alive by doing so. Why on earth do you think you're some sort of hot shot anyway? Why the hell do you care about this thread being here or in the CharOp boards? I fail to understand why this thread is so offensive towards you. If you don't like it, don't read it or post in it. It's that simple. lolz go angel :D and your welcome :) i always like being a little on the weird side characterwise (my next character is a halfling barbarian rogue who focuses on jumping.. yes i said it he focuses on jumping now that might seem pointless, but the thing is im gonna have him jumping onto the monsters and just start tearing em up w/ his daggers :) )
Nitan 12-22-06, 08:30 PM	This is the wrong forum for what you're asking. I swear, some people will find any reason to say any board is the wrong board for any topic. I guess i can't say it any simpler, i just want board members' ideas that i can bounce off of, not someone to build the character for me at the CharOp boards. Just opinions and ideas, hell. ...and yet your title says "Best TWF Build". I can't tell if you're just trolling or extremely dense. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. The character optimization forum is very good at taking concepts and making a character that can actually do them. Go there, tell them the concept you want (two-weapon fighting) and your party make up. They can give you a nice villain that can challenge the party. If you don't want an actual build they can give you feat, equipment, and tactical suggestions. And stop making your text small. It's a hassle to read.
ledfan 12-22-06, 08:32 PM	oh and.. in fact, monkey grip seems counter-intuitive, sinc eit lets you wield the weapon in the same handedness as if it was your own size category). cool thanks seph see i thought it just let u use weapons as if one size category larger at a -2 penalty ty for clearing that up for me :)
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 08:38 PM	...and yet your title says "Best TWF Build". I can't tell if you're just trolling or extremely dense. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. The character optimization forum is very good at taking concepts and making a character that can actually do them. Go there, tell them the concept you want (two-weapon fighting) and your party make up. They can give you a nice villain that can challenge the party. If you don't want an actual build they can give you feat, equipment, and tactical suggestions. And stop making your text small. It's a hassle to read. There, i reworked the titles to better suit your views. What classeswould you suggest for a character like this? I mean, this is the Classes and Prestige Classes forum, isn't it? Also, i don't understand why you feel the need to insult me just because of my views on the concept of the thread. But i can tell you that getting someone to switch to a different forum to ask for others' opinions on the subject is going to be difficult when you call them "trolls" and "extremely dense". Sorry about my text, but something about text bigger than that just erks me.
Belgian Waffle 12-22-06, 08:47 PM	Alright, this is fun. Human 2 Swordsage/2 Fighter/3 Bloodclaw Master/8 Warblade ECL Class+lvl BAB Feats ======================================== ================================= 1) SS1 +0 Shadow Blade, Dodge 2) F1 +1 TWF 3) F2 +2 Mobility, Weapon Focus (Daggers) 4) SS2 +3 5) WB1 +4 6) WB2 +5 Spring Attack 7) BCM1 +5 8) BCM2 +6 9) BCM3 +7 ITWF 10) WB3 +8 11) WB4 +9 12) WB5 +10 Quick Draw, Weapon Spec (Daggers) 13) WB6 +11 14) WB7 +12 15) WB8 +13 GTWF Saves : 12/8/6 Initiator Level : 14 As long as this guy's dexterity is high and he's holding a pair of daggers, he should be quite the monster. I'm not going to get into Maneuvers because that's a lot of work and I'm sure you can figure something out for that. Just grab whatever Tiger Claw maneuvers you can and anything else that would synergize with the two weapon fighting (burning blade for massive damage). The Spring Attack progression can be replaced if you want. And stop being such an old stick in the mud, Seerow. It's the holiday season. Now, let's all hold hands and sing Christmas carols.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 08:49 PM	Do you know the words to Kumbaya? As long as this guy's dexterity is high and he's holding a pair of daggers, he should be quite the monster. I'm not going to get into Maneuvers because that's a lot of work and I'm sure you can figure something out for that. Just grab whatever Tiger Claw maneuvers you can and anything else that would synergize with the two weapon fighting (burning blade for massive damage). The Spring Attack progression can be replaced if you want. Right, i'll start fishing through my ToB for some appropriate maneuvers. Thanx buddy.
Seerow 12-22-06, 08:54 PM	Alright, this is fun. Human 2 Swordsage/2 Fighter/3 Bloodclaw Master/8 Warblade ECL Class+lvl BAB Feats ======================================== ================================= 1) SS1 +0 Shadow Blade, Dodge 2) F1 +1 TWF 3) F2 +2 Mobility, Weapon Focus (Daggers) 4) SS2 +3 5) WB1 +4 6) WB2 +5 Spring Attack 7) BCM1 +5 8) BCM2 +6 9) BCM3 +7 ITWF 10) WB3 +8 11) WB4 +9 12) WB5 +10 Quick Draw, Weapon Prof (Daggers) 13) WB6 +11 14) WB7 +12 15) WB8 +13 GTWF Saves : 12/8/6 Initiator Level : 14 As long as this guy's dexterity is high and he's holding a pair of daggers, he should be quite the monster. I'm not going to get into Maneuvers because that's a lot of work and I'm sure you can figure something out for that. Just grab whatever Tiger Claw maneuvers you can and anything else that would synergize with the two weapon fighting (burning blade for massive damage). The Spring Attack progression can be replaced if you want. And stop being such an old stick in the mud, Seerow. It's the holiday season. Now, let's all hold hands and sing Christmas carols. Am I missing something, or did you seriously waste a feat on Dagger Proficiencies? AFTER getting Weapon Focus in it. XD
Nitan 12-22-06, 09:03 PM	Am I missing something, or did you seriously waste a feat on Dagger Proficiencies? AFTER getting Weapon Focus in it. XD Yeah...and can't you automatically get Weapon Focus with Shadow Hand weapons as a Sword Sage?
doctorhook 12-22-06, 09:19 PM	This thread stinks of hate. It must get very lonely in your basement, Seerow.
DragonChild_ 12-22-06, 09:28 PM	For all the people hating on Seerow... Is it that you support people giving outright false information to those asking questions, or what? I'm of the opinion that if you're going to give a particular piece of advice, you should at least make sure it's true first, and not just spout out random untruths.
Seerow 12-22-06, 09:32 PM	doctorhook, I live in Florida. We don't even HAVE basements here. So I couldn't be lonely in one.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 09:33 PM	Who says you can't be lonely living in a house on stilts?
AZNsupermarket 12-22-06, 09:44 PM	Am I missing something, or did you seriously waste a feat on Dagger Proficiencies? AFTER getting Weapon Focus in it. XD yea, especially when he could use shortswords for less hassle.
Seerow 12-22-06, 10:03 PM	Who says you can't be lonely living in a house on stilts? The fact that that makes no sense TBQH. yea, especially when he could use shortswords for less hassle. Well, he's using daggers because they're shadowhand weapons, I don't remember if Shortswords are or not. Dex to damage is a big boon. And he probably meant Weapon Spec, and typoed, but I can still pick at it =P
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 10:07 PM	The fact that that makes no sense TBQH. I have grandparents in texas, and their house is on stilts.
rphair 12-22-06, 10:09 PM	Okay, on the one hand, yeah, this is probably better suited for the Character Optimization boards, but I can see how it ended up here too. Trying to be constructive, I'd say that if Two-Weapon Fighting is your goal, you should definitely work Tempest in there. I had a pretty straight-build 15th-level character, Fighter 10/Tempest 5, and while I won't tell you that it's the most optimized build out there, given the huge wealth of material you can work with, it did work pretty well for me. Getting into Tempest requires Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Dodge, moreso than some feats, is sometimes rather conditional and, some would say, a little worthless. Spring Attack, though, is pretty awesome, and the Tempest's Two-Weapon Spring Attack is even better. If you have a lightly-armored, high-dexterity fighter -- I mean, how else are you going to build this guy? -- playing the hit-and-run game is going to be a pretty effective tactic, as long as you have room to maneuver. With the build above, ten levels of Fighter gives you a pretty good wealth of bonus feats to use. I know some people -- maybe even most people -- belay the Fighter as being worthless, but I've always enjoyed playing them, so take that for what you will. The large wealth of bonus feats seemed like a good way to go in my opinion, but your mileage may vary. Some of the better feats my last TWF'er took were, of course, Two-Weapon Fighting, as well as the Improved and Greater variants thereof. Since I fought with short swords, I thought Weapon Finesse was especially good, given how high my Dex mod had to be. With other feats to burn, you can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, as high as you can qualify for with your Fighter levels. Originally, I took Two Weapon Defense, but as some others have pointed out, this is actually somewhat superceded by Improved Buckler Defense, so on reflection, I'd go with that. You'll likely still have a few feats leftover. If your Int score is decent, pick up Combat Reflexes, as, in my mind, it's hard to go wrong with that. I put my character together a while ago, so I wasn't as experienced as I am now, and I also didn't have access to books like Tome of Battle, which has feats and, more importantly, stances and maneuvers which benefit TWF'ers greatly. If you have a chance, you should definitely look through that for some things that may help your character, too. For instance, after I finished the Tempest class, I kept going with Fighter. However, having seen the Swordsage and Warblade, I think they would have been better choices for continuing progression. Another way may be something like Fighter 4/Swordsage or Warblade 11/Tempest 5, in whatever combination makes you happy (you may still need the Fighter levels if only for a few bonus feats, but you shouldn't take an odd number of levels in Fighter because you don't see much of a benefit outside of BAB and a save or three). Human or Half-Elf avoids multiclassing penalties, but Humans shine here because of that extra feat in what is already a feat-intensive build. I hope some of that helps!
nastynate 12-22-06, 10:20 PM	The TWF builds on the CO boards are simply much better than anything you will find in this forum. 1. people there know the rules very well, and they won't make the mistake of combining things like monkey grip with TWF, or sub-par feat selections like two-weapon defense. 2. they will not link you to pun-pun, unless you come across like a troll. Post a question like this, "Hi. I'm a DM and I'm looking to make a BBEG who fights with two-weapons. He should be X level, his ability scores are X,Y,& Z, and I can use the following books... 3. There are some fine links to optimized TWF builds in the handy links thread, which you will find sticked at the top of the page. 4. This IS the wrong forum to ask about optimized builds...that is what the CO boards are all about. Try using Google to search for the following: Shou Iajutsu Swash Master, Revenant Blade, Dervish Handbook, or Tomb of Battle Build Compendium. Some of the better TWF builds I can think of off of the top of my head can be found in those threads. -Peace- EDIT: Trying to be constructive, I'd say that if Two-Weapon Fighting is your goal, you should definitely work Tempest in there. I had a pretty straight-build 15th-level character, Fighter 10/Tempest 5, and while I won't tell you that it's the most optimized build out there, given the huge wealth of material you can work with, it did work pretty well for me. Believe it or not, Tempest actually does very little for most good TWF builds. In 5 levels all it really gives you is a +2 bonus to hit (because of the reduced TWF penalties) and rather mundane pounce ability. The ability to add weapon focus, specialization, and other feats to two different weapons is pretty useless. Besides these feats being rather weak in and of themselves, you also get the same effect by fighting with two identical weapons. This has merit only when you want to use the TWF style feats from complete warrior like high sword, low axe. 9 times out of 10, you would be better off taking levels of fighter, rogue, or scout over tempest. Bonus feats and bonus damage (be it skirmish or sneak attack) go much further. Tempest is a misleading class, it may look sexy, but it actually stinks badly.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 10:32 PM	4. This IS the wrong forum to ask about optimized builds...that is what the CO boards are all about. Exactly the reason i didn't ask for an optimized build, i changed the title of the thread to better suit it. Don't you people read? I stated more than once that i'm not looking for optimized builds, i dont need someone to build this character for me. Hell, read the new title. "Best Classes for TWFing" Name a class or classes. Like i said, this is the "Classes and Prestige Classes" forum, is it not? I mean, is it completely out of line to inquire what other board members' think the choice classes are for TWFers, in the "Class and Prestige Classes" forum? What the hell is with all the red tape here? Exactly where do you draw the line between these forums? This is completely ridiculous, i have a simple inquiry, i find that the thread title could be somewhat misleading, so i change it. I can't believe how many people would rather nitpick the goal of this thread than to constructively contribute to it. I swear, sometimes it's like pulling teeth to have a simple discussion around here. Rant terminated.
Seerow 12-22-06, 10:34 PM	You're playing a semantics game with the changed thread title. It doesn't change your intentions one bit. The problem here seems to be you confusing "optimized" with "powergamed", and seem to be afraid someone's going to recommend the UberCharger or PunPun to you.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 10:40 PM	You're playing a semantics game with the changed thread title. It doesn't change your intentions one bit. Ok, since you seem to be able to read my mind, what are my intentions? You dont know, so don't sit there behind your monitor telling me what my intentions are/were. The problem here seems to be you confusing "optimized" with "powergamed", and seem to be afraid someone's going to recommend the UberCharger or PunPun to you. Here i go again, in plain english. I never asked for an optimized build. I suppose i could have been misleading with my title and initial post. I am only curious as to what classes you (anyone) would use when creating a TWFing villain. I mean, i hate to explain this like i'm talking to 4 year olds here, but i guess i have to.
Seerow 12-22-06, 10:42 PM	Of course, playing semantics makes anybody feel like they're 4 years old. (Hey look, I can do it too!)
Flay Crimsonwind 12-22-06, 10:45 PM	Dude, not to assault you, but you should really send this over to the Character Optimization boards. The people there are friendly, and they can totally pimp this guy out. One thing I'd suggest is you get some form of sneak attack damage onto this guy, cause TWFers aren't really getting everything they can out of it unless they have some form of extra damage. Rogue or Scout might fill soem fighter levels, since you don't really need the WF tree (I'd only get the WF at low levels, since it wont benefit too much after that, but it's killer early on). Just my two bits. Good luck with this guy; coming from a guy who's favorite character is a TWFer. ~Flay
nastynate 12-22-06, 10:55 PM	Ok, since you seem to be able to read my mind, what are my intentions? You dont know, so don't sit there behind your monitor telling me what my intentions are/were. Here i go again, in plain english. I never asked for an optimized build. I suppose i could have been misleading with my title and initial post. I am only curious as to what classes you (anyone) would use when creating a TWFing villain. I mean, i hate to explain this like i'm talking to 4 year olds here, but i guess i have to. I'll bite. "What are the best classes for TWF?" The same ones I told you to google search for in the post above. Where do you find this information? The CO boards. If you don't want an optimized build, why are you asking for the best classes to make a two-weapon fighter? the key words here are "best." Us 4 year olds already know how to build two-weapon-fighters, and we cannot understand why you adults refuse to look in the forum where we posted them. I'll make this easy for you though gramps. Here's a very simple and effective combination of classes to make a good two-weapon-fighter. Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / fighter 4 / Dervish 10. I won't list the feats, equipment, ability scores, or tips needed to make this build work effectively...since all you want is the classes. If you want to know more, you know where to look...
Belgian Waffle 12-22-06, 10:56 PM	Am I missing something, or did you seriously waste a feat on Dagger Proficiencies? AFTER getting Weapon Focus in it. XD Oops, meant weapon spec. I was typing it in and I said to myself, "Something ain't right." Must be my senility. yea, especially when he could use shortswords for less hassle. Shortswords don't work for the Bloodclaw Master stuff.
alchemyprime 12-22-06, 11:10 PM	Wow. I'm sorry, but yeah, he did put Prof. after Focus. For classes, use the fighter, or the Samurai from CW. And Two Weapon Defense is a good feat. When you are trying to do Two Weapon Fighting. And look up Oriental Adventures. They have a PrC for TWF with a katana and wakizashi that gives big bonuses to AC. It's worth a look. It's the Dragon Clan's PrC in the Rokugan chapter.
Seerow 12-22-06, 11:11 PM	And Two Weapon Defense is a good feat. When you are trying to do Two Weapon Fighting Look at Improved Buckler Defense, then go look at Two Weapon Defense again. Come back with a comparison between the two and tell me TWD is still a good feat.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 11:17 PM	I'll bite. "What are the best classes for TWF?" The same ones I told you to google search for in the post above. Where do you find this information? The CO boards. If you don't want an optimized build, why are you asking for the best classes to make a two-weapon fighter? the key words here are "best." Us 4 year olds already know how to build two-weapon-fighters, and we cannot understand why you adults refuse to look in the forum where we posted them. I'll make this easy for you though gramps. Here's a very simple and effective combination of classes to make a good two-weapon-fighter. Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / fighter 4 / Dervish 10. I won't list the feats, equipment, ability scores, or tips needed to make this build work effectively...since all you want is the classes. If you want to know more, you know where to look... Where do i start... I never you said you guys were 4 year olds. I simply i'll have to explain as if you were, because almost everyone was picking choosing things i said and taking them out of context. I had explain things like you were 4 year olds so you couldn't do that, but magically, you still did. Umm..i know how to make characters. As i said, i see how my title and initial post could have been misleading. I will reword it again. I was simply curious as to what other board members' opinions were as to what classes they would use when building a TWFer. I never asked them to do it for me, did i? No, i didn't. I can't believe how many times i've had to repeat myself, at least once in every post. As i said, off the top of my head, i went with Fighter/Tempest, probably human (uh oh, i talked about race, should shoot over to the "Races" forum, because that's not allowed here?. Now simply, do you agree with those classes, or do you have a different preference? Gee, i just... don't understand why everything i say has to be taken out of context in order to be responded to. Think about it. If i go to the Skills and Feats board and ask a good feat tree for my TWFer, are you going to tell me to it's the wrong forum, because my intentions are to optimize the character with feats? I sure as hell hope not. That's exactly what is happening here. By you logic, any question that relates to building a character (i.e. What skills should i max out? What feats would benefit me the most? What race should i choose for this class? what class should i use for this concept?) belongs nowhere but tyhe CharOp boards. By this logic, you could say almost any question regarding Skills, Feats, Races, or Classes belongs in the CharOp boards.
RadicalTaoist 12-22-06, 11:18 PM	The sad thing is a few minutes' search on the CO Boards would have probably told him everything in this thread...
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 11:24 PM	The sad thing is a few minutes' search on the CO Boards would have probably told him everything in this thread... No, the sad thing is, you don't seem read either. I was simply curious as to what other board members' opinions were as to what classes they would use when building a TWFer. I never asked them to do it for me, did i? No, i didn't. I can't believe how many times i've had to repeat myself, at least once in every post. As i said, off the top of my head, i went with Fighter/Tempest, probably human (uh oh, i talked about race, should shoot over to the "Races" forum, because that's not allowed here?. Now simply, do you agree with those classes, or do you have a different preference? Gee, i just... don't understand why everything i say has to be taken out of context in order to be responded to. I just can't repeat myself again, so i'll qoute what i said earlier. But again, i never once requested the perfect build for a TWFer, i wasn't looking for an optimized character that i can get the most out of. Ok, here i go, i will reword the title, because, obviously, the word "best" completely negates what intentions i have with the intentions everyone think i have.
Seerow 12-22-06, 11:27 PM	The CO Board Still would have given you a general idea of which classes would suit you best with a quick glance through.
Flay Crimsonwind 12-22-06, 11:28 PM	Wow, touchy. Since you're really interested in what the best classes are, I suggested you go to the CO boards cause the people there do know best. Sorry for supplying an idea. Why, if you don't want us to make what we consider a good TWFer, would you ask our opinions on the best classes? Dude, if you're going to troll, at least make it stupid enough to make sense. But this contradiction crap is just annoying. Go play your villain, fine fine. If you ask for the best classes to go TWfer, expect to get some builds, since the builds tell you what classes and why. Don't get ****** off when people give you the answers that you didn't know you wanted.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 11:38 PM	Oh, wow... I used plain english, simple words. I don't understand what is going. This is like some twilight zone crap. What, in your experience, do you prefer when creating a TWFing character? Now i didn't take more than a few seconds to think about, but i don't believe anyone could possibly misintepret this. Thats it. Forget about what i was doing with my adventure and villains, because i realized i don't want anyone else helping me on it. All i get is people with "horrible" builds and people with insults.
RadicalTaoist 12-22-06, 11:43 PM	The only thing the CO Boards wouldn't offer that this thread does would be an opinion poll. Is that what you would like - a specific poll of this specific forum's preferences when choosing classes for a TWF character? I personally like dipping into Swashbuckler for 3 levels myself. The ToB crusader is a favorite TWFer too.
Seerow 12-22-06, 11:55 PM	I personally like dipping into Swashbuckler for 3 levels myself. The ToB crusader is a favorite TWFer too. ...I'll bite. Why does the Crusader make a good TWFer? I always saw him as more of a Sword and Board type myself. Warblade seems strictly better for TWFing, as it has Tiger Claw maneuvers.
Angelflesh 12-22-06, 11:56 PM	I made one with Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Tempest 5. A lot of the time i go into Kensai because i like the flavor. I chose exotic weapon master because once i made one who fought with 2 Great Scimitars, and took the ability that let's you lessen the TWF penalties if you fight with 2 of the same exotic weapons. Not the most optimized (which i wasn't going for), but it was fun.
Nitan 12-23-06, 01:04 AM	Oh, wow... I used plain english, simple words. I don't understand what is going. This is like some twilight zone crap. What, in your experience, do you prefer when creating a TWFing character? Now i didn't take more than a few seconds to think about, but i don't believe anyone could possibly misintepret this. Thats it. Forget about what i was doing with my adventure and villains, because i realized i don't want anyone else helping me on it. All i get is people with "horrible" builds and people with insults. ... Let's try to figure out when this topic went horribly wrong... I am interested in seeing some of your most effective two-weapon fighter builds. So far so good. But obviously, best builds and those sorts of things should go to the Character Optimization Board. It's sort of given in the name. A normal poster in a normal place would say "okay, thanks" and post there. But not today as we are on the edge of the...Twilight Zone. What is with you people? I'm trying to optimize this guy so he can take on my PC's single handedly, i just want other board members' opinions on how they would put a character like this together. Strange, the word optimize also appears into the name Character Optimization board. But it's a simply mistake, people can decide to simply let Angelflesh go along his merry way. But then... I swear, some people will find any reason to say any board is the wrong board for any topic. I guess i can't say it any simpler, i just want board members' ideas that i can bounce off of, not someone to build the character for me at the CharOp boards. Just opinions and ideas, hell. Oh dear. We are now neck deep in the Twilight Zone. Except in the first post Angelflesh did ask for builds! Oh the madness! Save us Rod! Save us! And so eden sank down in grief... I'm glad you figured out what you wanted to make that person. If you learned anything from this...beautiful topic, I'd suggest it be that the Character Optimization forum is very good at both character optimization and building characters in general. You can get more than Pun Pun there. Also, good advice does not always come in polite form. Learn to swallow your pride and take it.
Angelflesh 12-23-06, 01:42 AM	Strange, the word optimize also appears into the name Character Optimization board. But it's a simply mistake, people can decide to simply let Angelflesh go along his merry way. But then... Hmm, i went in and edited that post, like long ago. While i was typing i completely skipped the word "not" when it cam to wether or not i was trying to optimize this guy. Mistake on my part. Oh dear. We are now neck deep in the Twilight Zone. Except in the first post Angelflesh did ask for builds! Oh the madness! Save us Rod! Save us! And so eden sank down in grief... I'm glad you figured out what you wanted to make that person. If you learned anything from this...beautiful topic, I'd suggest it be that the Character Optimization forum is very good at both character optimization and building characters in general. You can get more than Pun Pun there. Also, good advice does not always come in polite form. Learn to swallow your pride and take it. If you can qoute me some good advice i got from someone i've been battling here, please do so. Oh, and please make sure it wasn't them taking what i've said out of context, as in....well just about everything they said. "Go to the CharOp boards" doesn't count, only because i wasn't asking for optimized characters or anything. Like i said, i understand my thread title and initial post could have been, somewhat, misleading. I swear, the second this thread actually got sort of track, someone comes along to completely derail it. EDIT: Oddly enough, it doesn't show that i edited that post. I went back and did now, but i guess we are in the twilight zone. I also tried to change the thread title again earlier and stayed for about 5 minutes and reverted back tp what it is now.
nastynate 12-23-06, 03:39 AM	ummm....fine, I'll link you to the CO boards and some good TWF builds, since you refuse to go there and find them for yourself. Mind you this could have all been avoided if you just heeded Seerow's advice and went there first (then you wouldn't have gotten suggestions for monkey grip, more than 4 levels of fighter, tempest, inaccurate suggestions on using inappropriately sized weapons, or tons of flak for being obstinate). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646185 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713640 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=568581 That should provide more than enough information to build some nice two-weapon fighters. You can pick and choose from the classes, feats, spells, magical items, psionics, and other goodies used to build them. You do not have to copy and paste a villain from these examples (you can build your own), but they should provide more than enough ideas, synergies, and combinations to build a strong two-weapon fighter that suits your BBEG. Two-weapon fighting requires a few things to succeed. Bonus damage from a source other than strength (like the swashbuckler [intelligence to damage], the Champion of Corellon Larenthian [dexterity to damage], or rogue [sneak attack]), bonus feats to offset the 3 TWF feats, and a means to get consistently into melee range for full attacks (like pounce, dervish dance, or dimension X spells and powers). If that doesn't help, then I don't know what will. -Peace-
RadicalTaoist 12-23-06, 01:01 PM	NastyNate: Just for the record, how long did you take to look those up? Seerow: Furious Counterstrike, my man. Overcomes the TWF penalties, and nice bonus on extra attacks. You can boost this damage further with Tactics of the Wolf, or heal faster with TWF using Martial Spirit. Now the lack of Tiger Claw does hurt - consider digging into that discipline with Martial Stance/Study.
nastynate 12-23-06, 09:11 PM	NastyNate: Just for the record, how long did you take to look those up? about a minute. :)
Flay Crimsonwind 12-23-06, 09:20 PM	Cool, well now that that's cleared up, you want my opinion on what makes a good twfer? okay then, I'll try: Rogues. Tumble +SA with more than one weapon. Both get it. Scout + Dervish. Move with the dance, get the extra damage on two attacks. A nice combo. Pretty much anything with an alternate source of added damage (warblade included). Any way to abuse the damage on a second attack is what I'd go for. My favorite is the rogue and scout though, just for the idea of a guy running through swaths of *insert stereotypical monster here*, with a near wave of blood coming up as he cuts all lethal hits.
GhostStepper 12-23-06, 09:44 PM	A build with Improved trip, Sidestep, Robliar's Gambit, OTWF and EWP could be fun with 2 kusari-gamas. Throw in a couple of Long Arm fiendish grafts from Fiend Folio and your threatening 15' with 2 weapons. If you can work Stormguard Warrior in there youll be pretty deadly.
Vaelan 12-23-06, 10:30 PM	I am only curious as to what classes you (anyone) would use when creating a TWFing villain. TWF villlains are basicaly just throw-aways. The major problem with having a sole villain is that they only get one action to the party's 4+. Since TWF is characterized by not being able to take full advantage of their actions in combat, it is an especially poor choice. Go with Dervish. At least that will encourage your players to actually think about how to approach the battle rather than just beating the villain down. Also, try to stay on topic. The thread title isn't "Things I Don't Like About Seerow", unless you decide to change it again, so stop talking about him. It is off topic and explicitly prohibited by this forum's Code of Conduct.
GhostStepper 12-23-06, 10:44 PM	TWF villlains are basicaly just throw-aways. The major problem with having a sole villain is that they only get one action to the party's 4+. This is especially true if your making a villain that relies on Sneak Attack. Other than a surprise round, he's gonna need a way to make people flat-footed or flanked. A few ways to get around this: - Throw out plenty of mooks. Even if they get taken down in one hit, if there are enough of them they can always be there to give the main guy flanking. You could always throw out a bunch of lower levels guys that have sneak attack as well. - Use the ToB. Maneuvers like Distracting Ember can help your BBEG get the flank if there is no one else around. There are alos numerous maneuvers that grant extra attacks so he can move into flank and get mutiple attacks in one round. Stances like Island of Blades will help you get into position as well. - Break out some levels of ninja. You can make your BBEG ethereal so as to guarantee he alteast gets a few full attack/sneak attacks before he goes down. Even better, making him the head of a ninja clan and make all your disposable mooks invisible ninjas. - Use some magic to help get the sneak attack. Improved Invisibility can work wonders if your party isnt prepared and may let you get atleast one or 2 shots in before See Invisibility, True Seeing or dispel magic messes up your plan. - Use magic items. I believe there is a weapon enhancement in a book i dont have (Blurred strike or something to that effect) that makes opponents flat-footed against your attacks. If you can find that, that may help the potency of your BBEG. You can also use Deadly Precision weapon enhancements (CAd) or Bracers of the Hunter (??) (Secrets of Xen'drik) to up your sneak attack damage when it does hit. - Visit the CO boards. I know you sick of reading it, but it really is a good idea. Not everything there is Pun Pun (in fact nothing really is) and you can always cherry pick a few good ideas to incorporate into what ever your making.
Violator 12-23-06, 11:49 PM	scout+dervish!!!!! d6s + dervish dance
Odimax 12-24-06, 12:14 AM	scout+dervish!!!!! d6s + dervish dance Scout and Dervish does sound pretty cool. Not only would he be pretty effective, but you could easily give him an interesting personality and background. Based on what I remember of the flavor of the Dervish, I think these two classes fit together very well.
Violator 12-24-06, 12:35 AM	oh yeah... skirmish and dervish dance... are ment to be... just add scimitars.. with keen and speed enhace in both.. and you got a really scary crit machine!!!!!!!!!!!! I, right now, have a Drow Scout 8, dervish 7... and he kick ass PD: you can pick improved crit if you want.
Firestar27 12-24-06, 09:13 PM	If you just went to the CharOp boards after hearing about it, this argument could have been avoided. I recieved stress from jsut reading this. But, since you are so stubborn, i will post and answer what CLASSES i would use to TWF. :rolleyes: Fighter, Ranger, Samurai. (now that i think of it, Monk would be cool with double unarmed strike but he would need the PHBII variant to stop the penalties from becoming too great with flurry of blows.)
Hariman 12-25-06, 01:23 AM	Well, since you're asking for the best CLASSES to build a tough TWFer with, I'll recommend: 1) Fighter. And maybe Tempest with it. But the fighter gives you the bonus feats to actually TAKE all of the good TWF feats AND offset the TWF penalties with Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. (And increase damage with Specialization) 2) Barbarian. Less feats, but the Boost in Strength accomplishes the same thing that takes the fighter 4 feats. 3) Rogue. Less feats, but with a flanking buddy the Sneak attack damage is daunting. Combining a Greatsword with Spiked armor provides an unorthodox method of gaining an offhand weapon. The Greatsword/Spiked Armor combo also keeps damage high when striking with the primary weapon. Double weapons are also an option. A half orc fighter12/barbarian2 would be the best for a high strength build and the combination of Rage/feats would well offset the TWF penalties. You'd just have to worry about the party getting creative and simply moving away each round. So find a place for a decent dexterity score and Combat Reflexes. Hariman
Vaelan 12-25-06, 02:02 AM	You'd just have to worry about the party getting creative and simply moving away each round. That is a worry best left for when you solve the problem of the party simply overwhelming him even if they play into his strategy. A TWF-based character commits himself to toe-to-toe melee combat. Every member of the party will be able to bring the full force of their capabilities to bear on him. Unless this villain has a good six levels on the party, this isn't going to work.