best cohort for buffing an army. [Archive] - Wizards Community

best cohort for buffing an army. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
icnivad
03-23-07, 02:22 PM I was about to gain a L5 cohort(actually a thrall, but same thing), and I wanted to go with something that would benefit a large army of low level creatures. I wasn't sure weather to go with a marshal, dragon shaman, bard, or maybe even just a wizard or cleric that focuses on buffing spells.

Any ideas?
kadeity
03-23-07, 03:03 PM A Marshal focused on charisma and leadership feats.
lol. theres a dragon magazine issue with more leadership feats, and another that gives the marshal commander auras from Heroes of Battle.

if your doing ANYTHING with an army, you need heroes of battle.
Grod_The_Giant
03-23-07, 03:09 PM bard. No, seriously.
The_Shaman
03-23-07, 03:34 PM IMO bard is a very good compromise - some decent area buffs (songs), some spells, and can be quite handy in non-combat situations.
icnivad
03-23-07, 04:17 PM kadeity: Any idea which dragon magazines?

Yeah, Bard's looking pretty good, it looks like the one thing they have going for them is that their song bonuses affect both attack and damage, where the Marshal can only do one at a time and the Dragon Shaman can only do damage.

Do the bonuses from Bard, Dragon Shaman, and Marshal stack?

Still open to opinions.
ZeroNumerous
03-23-07, 04:27 PM Bard into Sublime Chord is always good if you like the spellcaster-based Bards. Honestly, if you're looking for pure party buffing Bard is awesome for that.
icnivad
03-23-07, 04:47 PM For the sake of conversation, I thought I'd lay out a guide of some of the best strategies with each option as I see them. I envision this as a unit to help in a large war with hundreds to thousands of units. I'm probably missing something, so feel free to correct me or add to this.

(Bonuses given are for level 20 characters)

Bard:
Inspire Courage: +4 to attack and damage rolls. This isn't particularly powerful, but it affects any ally who can hear, which is open to some interpretation. In real life, battle drums carry for miles.

Marshal:
Major Aura: Motivate Care: +4 AC
Major Aura: Motivate Attack: +4 Attack
Many of the minor auras are good if you build your army with a specific focus, such as trip the enemy and take att of opp on then when they stand.
Master of Tactics is also a good one if you can get your troops do do a lot of flanking, as by level 20, your Marshal should have +5 to 8 to charisma bonus, depending on items.
Same goes for Over the Top bonus to damage rolls when charging if your army charges.
Also worth noting is Motivate Urgency. which adds +20 ft/rnd, and useful for getting the army into position / outflanking.
The Marshal is very adaptable, but the range of 60 feet isn't can't cover a whole battlefield. Marshal's also don't need to concentrate to use their auras like bards do, so they are free to do other things.

Dragon Shaman:
Energy Shield: 10 damage returned to any creature that strikes your ally in melee combat. Wow, just wow. This is enough to kill most level 1 fighters in one or two hits. If the enemy misses your troops, then you hit them, if they hit your troops, they'll soon wish they'd missed.
Vigor: Gives fast healing 5 to any creature below half hit points. This is enough to keep a L1 fighter with 10 hit points at 5 hit points. As long as they stay alive, they'll quickly be at 5. Most L1 opponents will be dealing an average of around 6 damage. You won't likely worry about losing a unit, and your downed allies will soon be up again and fighting.
Toughness: DR 5/magic is pretty good, too, as that will completely stop most hits from a level 1 character from doing any damage. Imagine what you could do with two dragon shamans with energy shield and toughness in effect?
Like the Marshal, the Dragon Shaman's aura is active without having to do anything, the only downside is that this aura only effects creatures within 30 feet. Kind of small for a large scale battle.

After looking into Wizard and Cleric spells, I decided to remove them from the list as they aren't well suited for large battle buffing as their spells are too limited in area, and won't last long enough to turn the tide of a battle. (Not that they can't turn the tide of a battle, just not in the way I'm trying to do so here)
icnivad
03-23-07, 04:49 PM Are there any items that grant auras such as those above? Maybe an artificer would be a useful class to consider?
The_Shaman
03-23-07, 05:09 PM Eventually, I like the Bard's casting ability. Having Haste on their list isn't half bad, as it can easily affect a small squad by the time the bard gets it - and can get way better. For future levels, I'd advise a class with more musical abilities i.e. virtuoso.

Mind you, for sheer battle buffing, I think one could consider the War Wizard (Magic of Faerun). He's big on widened spells, and that can be very handy for combat.
ZeroNumerous
03-23-07, 05:58 PM Warweaver can be nice for short battles if you're going a wizard buffer route.
Roland the Crownbreaker
03-23-07, 06:37 PM The Bard's Inspire Courage is a morale effect, so it will stack with the Dragon Shaman's damage aura. (Not sure about the Marshall's auras, though. I never picked up the Miniature's Hnadbook) If you go the bardic route, you might want to make sure he has the spell Inspirational Boost, which will increase the inspire courage bonuses by an additonal +1 all around.

For a military unit I would suggest a character with things like auras, rather than limited spells (as you said the cohort is only level 5).

The Dragon Shaman has a healing aura, which is a pretty good ability right there. Plus he has a d10 hit die.

The Marshall probably has the best AC, due to being able to wear heavier armor.

The Bard, while physically the weakest of the 3, is the most versatile. Good buffs, knowledge that may come in handy, and spells. Plus, with the Use Magic Device skill, he can potentially be a fill-in for a wizard or cleric if given the right tools.
icnivad
03-23-07, 07:40 PM Woah, just read Warchanter. The level 10 power looks amazing for what I'm talking about. All allies within 60 feet use the best BAB among them(or the warchanter's character level, whichever is higher). In addition, they get +2 damage. And because of their 5th level ability, "Combine Songs", they can combine this power with Inspire Courage. So, a 10th level bard/10 warchanter will make all your 1st level fighters have an attack bonus of 26(20 bab + 4 inspire courage+2 str). and deal 1d8 + 8 damage. Alternatively, you could combine the 10th level power with Inspire Toughness, which would grant +20 hp to all allies.
Aximili
03-23-07, 10:27 PM Bard:
Inspire Courage: +4 to attack and damage rolls. This isn't particularly powerful, but it affects any ally who can hear, which is open to some interpretation. In real life, battle drums carry for miles.

This is not very fair...
First: What about the other bardic musics?
Inspire Greatness is certainly worth mentioning (even if it only affects 4 or 5 at level 20)

Second: There is a first level spell (that any mid-level bard would be silly not to take) that increases your InsCou by +1.

Third: The bard has quite a few area buff spells that the marshal has no acces to.
HomebrewedMonster
03-24-07, 12:20 AM Are there any items that grant auras such as those above? Maybe an artificer would be a useful class to consider?

This is a very good idea, every army needs sweet equipment. A well-equipped army is a powerful army.

A cleric is the buff master, straight cleric = buffed and healed army.
Lotus Crane
03-24-07, 02:02 AM Woah, just read Warchanter. The level 10 power looks amazing for what I'm talking about. All allies within 60 feet use the best BAB among them(or the warchanter's character level, whichever is higher). In addition, they get +2 damage. And because of their 5th level ability, "Combine Songs", they can combine this power with Inspire Courage. So, a 10th level bard/10 warchanter will make all your 1st level fighters have an attack bonus of 26(20 bab + 4 inspire courage+2 str). and deal 1d8 + 8 damage. Alternatively, you could combine the 10th level power with Inspire Toughness, which would grant +20 hp to all allies.
While that all sounds well and good, realistically speaking, it'll never happen. You're talking about a game where you're bringing in 5th level cohort (thrall, etc.), and since most games end before the PC's reach 20th level, it also means that most games end before cohorts reach 18th level. A bard 10/Warchanter 10 cohort is a dream, not reality.

The most important thing is for you to try and get an idea of when the game might end. If it's going to be a limited campaign that ends as early as the low teens, it may actually be best just to keep your cohort straight bard, in the hopes of having him reach bard 8 for inspire courage +2. Bard is especially good if you're allowed to use Eberron material, because Song of the Heart is a fantastic feat for bards, especially at the lower levels where it's literally doubling his effectiveness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
icnivad 03-23-07, 02:22 PM	I was about to gain a L5 cohort(actually a thrall, but same thing), and I wanted to go with something that would benefit a large army of low level creatures. I wasn't sure weather to go with a marshal, dragon shaman, bard, or maybe even just a wizard or cleric that focuses on buffing spells. Any ideas?
kadeity 03-23-07, 03:03 PM	A Marshal focused on charisma and leadership feats. lol. theres a dragon magazine issue with more leadership feats, and another that gives the marshal commander auras from Heroes of Battle. if your doing ANYTHING with an army, you need heroes of battle.
Grod_The_Giant 03-23-07, 03:09 PM	bard. No, seriously.
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 03:34 PM	IMO bard is a very good compromise - some decent area buffs (songs), some spells, and can be quite handy in non-combat situations.
icnivad 03-23-07, 04:17 PM	kadeity: Any idea which dragon magazines? Yeah, Bard's looking pretty good, it looks like the one thing they have going for them is that their song bonuses affect both attack and damage, where the Marshal can only do one at a time and the Dragon Shaman can only do damage. Do the bonuses from Bard, Dragon Shaman, and Marshal stack? Still open to opinions.
ZeroNumerous 03-23-07, 04:27 PM	Bard into Sublime Chord is always good if you like the spellcaster-based Bards. Honestly, if you're looking for pure party buffing Bard is awesome for that.
icnivad 03-23-07, 04:47 PM	For the sake of conversation, I thought I'd lay out a guide of some of the best strategies with each option as I see them. I envision this as a unit to help in a large war with hundreds to thousands of units. I'm probably missing something, so feel free to correct me or add to this. (Bonuses given are for level 20 characters) Bard: Inspire Courage: +4 to attack and damage rolls. This isn't particularly powerful, but it affects any ally who can hear, which is open to some interpretation. In real life, battle drums carry for miles. Marshal: Major Aura: Motivate Care: +4 AC Major Aura: Motivate Attack: +4 Attack Many of the minor auras are good if you build your army with a specific focus, such as trip the enemy and take att of opp on then when they stand. Master of Tactics is also a good one if you can get your troops do do a lot of flanking, as by level 20, your Marshal should have +5 to 8 to charisma bonus, depending on items. Same goes for Over the Top bonus to damage rolls when charging if your army charges. Also worth noting is Motivate Urgency. which adds +20 ft/rnd, and useful for getting the army into position / outflanking. The Marshal is very adaptable, but the range of 60 feet isn't can't cover a whole battlefield. Marshal's also don't need to concentrate to use their auras like bards do, so they are free to do other things. Dragon Shaman: Energy Shield: 10 damage returned to any creature that strikes your ally in melee combat. Wow, just wow. This is enough to kill most level 1 fighters in one or two hits. If the enemy misses your troops, then you hit them, if they hit your troops, they'll soon wish they'd missed. Vigor: Gives fast healing 5 to any creature below half hit points. This is enough to keep a L1 fighter with 10 hit points at 5 hit points. As long as they stay alive, they'll quickly be at 5. Most L1 opponents will be dealing an average of around 6 damage. You won't likely worry about losing a unit, and your downed allies will soon be up again and fighting. Toughness: DR 5/magic is pretty good, too, as that will completely stop most hits from a level 1 character from doing any damage. Imagine what you could do with two dragon shamans with energy shield and toughness in effect? Like the Marshal, the Dragon Shaman's aura is active without having to do anything, the only downside is that this aura only effects creatures within 30 feet. Kind of small for a large scale battle. After looking into Wizard and Cleric spells, I decided to remove them from the list as they aren't well suited for large battle buffing as their spells are too limited in area, and won't last long enough to turn the tide of a battle. (Not that they can't turn the tide of a battle, just not in the way I'm trying to do so here)
icnivad 03-23-07, 04:49 PM	Are there any items that grant auras such as those above? Maybe an artificer would be a useful class to consider?
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 05:09 PM	Eventually, I like the Bard's casting ability. Having Haste on their list isn't half bad, as it can easily affect a small squad by the time the bard gets it - and can get way better. For future levels, I'd advise a class with more musical abilities i.e. virtuoso. Mind you, for sheer battle buffing, I think one could consider the War Wizard (Magic of Faerun). He's big on widened spells, and that can be very handy for combat.
ZeroNumerous 03-23-07, 05:58 PM	Warweaver can be nice for short battles if you're going a wizard buffer route.
Roland the Crownbreaker 03-23-07, 06:37 PM	The Bard's Inspire Courage is a morale effect, so it will stack with the Dragon Shaman's damage aura. (Not sure about the Marshall's auras, though. I never picked up the Miniature's Hnadbook) If you go the bardic route, you might want to make sure he has the spell Inspirational Boost, which will increase the inspire courage bonuses by an additonal +1 all around. For a military unit I would suggest a character with things like auras, rather than limited spells (as you said the cohort is only level 5). The Dragon Shaman has a healing aura, which is a pretty good ability right there. Plus he has a d10 hit die. The Marshall probably has the best AC, due to being able to wear heavier armor. The Bard, while physically the weakest of the 3, is the most versatile. Good buffs, knowledge that may come in handy, and spells. Plus, with the Use Magic Device skill, he can potentially be a fill-in for a wizard or cleric if given the right tools.
icnivad 03-23-07, 07:40 PM	Woah, just read Warchanter. The level 10 power looks amazing for what I'm talking about. All allies within 60 feet use the best BAB among them(or the warchanter's character level, whichever is higher). In addition, they get +2 damage. And because of their 5th level ability, "Combine Songs", they can combine this power with Inspire Courage. So, a 10th level bard/10 warchanter will make all your 1st level fighters have an attack bonus of 26(20 bab + 4 inspire courage+2 str). and deal 1d8 + 8 damage. Alternatively, you could combine the 10th level power with Inspire Toughness, which would grant +20 hp to all allies.
Aximili 03-23-07, 10:27 PM	Bard: Inspire Courage: +4 to attack and damage rolls. This isn't particularly powerful, but it affects any ally who can hear, which is open to some interpretation. In real life, battle drums carry for miles. This is not very fair... First: What about the other bardic musics? Inspire Greatness is certainly worth mentioning (even if it only affects 4 or 5 at level 20) Second: There is a first level spell (that any mid-level bard would be silly not to take) that increases your InsCou by +1. Third: The bard has quite a few area buff spells that the marshal has no acces to.
HomebrewedMonster 03-24-07, 12:20 AM	Are there any items that grant auras such as those above? Maybe an artificer would be a useful class to consider? This is a very good idea, every army needs sweet equipment. A well-equipped army is a powerful army. A cleric is the buff master, straight cleric = buffed and healed army.
Lotus Crane 03-24-07, 02:02 AM	Woah, just read Warchanter. The level 10 power looks amazing for what I'm talking about. All allies within 60 feet use the best BAB among them(or the warchanter's character level, whichever is higher). In addition, they get +2 damage. And because of their 5th level ability, "Combine Songs", they can combine this power with Inspire Courage. So, a 10th level bard/10 warchanter will make all your 1st level fighters have an attack bonus of 26(20 bab + 4 inspire courage+2 str). and deal 1d8 + 8 damage. Alternatively, you could combine the 10th level power with Inspire Toughness, which would grant +20 hp to all allies. While that all sounds well and good, realistically speaking, it'll never happen. You're talking about a game where you're bringing in 5th level cohort (thrall, etc.), and since most games end before the PC's reach 20th level, it also means that most games end before cohorts reach 18th level. A bard 10/Warchanter 10 cohort is a dream, not reality. The most important thing is for you to try and get an idea of when the game might end. If it's going to be a limited campaign that ends as early as the low teens, it may actually be best just to keep your cohort straight bard, in the hopes of having him reach bard 8 for inspire courage +2. Bard is especially good if you're allowed to use Eberron material, because Song of the Heart is a fantastic feat for bards, especially at the lower levels where it's literally doubling his effectiveness.