Post/Author/DateTime	Post
countbubba 04-11-07, 03:39 PM	In my time here on the boards, I've heard a lot of trash-talking of fighters, saying how inferior they are to wizards and clerics (not all of which is unjustified). But all of this has made me wonder: What is truly the best combatant in the game thus far? And what's so great about it? I eagerly await any and all responses.
Ralvuimego 04-11-07, 03:51 PM	Core Only, it depends on the situation. A paladin would probably beat a barbarian if the barb was evil and out in the open. If the Barb was good aligned, then the pally can't use his smite evil, and if he was in a dungeon, the pally couldn't use his special mount. Out of any book? Probably something from ToB
DEMONisbest 04-11-07, 04:10 PM	A ranger shooting fighter and paladin before they even spot him :)
AkaKageWarrior 04-11-07, 04:16 PM	the question is: what do you want to play? I just don't like playing paladins or other classes, so these are my favs: Fighter: because it's freely configurable with lots of feats (okay, it's missing skillpoints and some other nice high level ability) Barbarian: high damage give and take, but somehow too one-dimensional Warblade: as someone else said: that's the way the fighter should have been from the start. d12, useful skills, some nice abilities, and not to forget the maneuvers and stances. my new and absolute favourite! multi-class! you don't lose too much when multi-/Pr-classing warriors, so do it! almost every warrior can make good use of 4 fighter levels, giving 3 feats (weapon focus, wpn specialization, melee wpn mastery). AKW
heretic888 04-11-07, 04:44 PM	What is truly the best combatant in the game thus far? In my opinion.... The best caster combatant is a Druid. The best non-caster combatant is a Warblade.
Argo 04-11-07, 04:45 PM	What book has the Warblade?
heretic888 04-11-07, 04:47 PM	What book has the Warblade? Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. The Warblade class is actually available for free on the WotC website. Just look it up in the search engine.
Tony Vargas 04-11-07, 06:05 PM	What is truly the best combatant in the game thus far? And what's so great about it?In a sense, you're asking "Has the game failed yet?" Because, when you can point to a hands-down 'best' in a classification as broad as 'combatant,' game balance has fled the scene. Core, there's not a 'best' combatant, though there are mechanical flaws, even in the core rules that can be exploited to produce a character that outperforms in the right circumstances. The legitimate contenders for the title - the fighter, paladin, and barbarian - all but in comparable performances. The fighter and paladin have the advantage of heavy armor, the barbarian, fast movement. The barbarian has his rage, the fighter his feats, and the paladin his smite evil ability (and mount, eventually). The barb and pally each fit a narrow set of warrior-type character concepts, the fighter handles most of the rest. The Ranger isn't up to par with the other three, unless he's in circumstances that let him showcase his combat style & FEB.
The_Shaman 04-11-07, 06:16 PM	"The Ranger isn't up to par with the other three, unless he's in circumstances that let him showcase his combat style & FEB." That presumes the others can showcase their abilities as well. An archery ranger might do well enough simply sniping the opponent and staying out of sight.
MikeN 04-11-07, 07:05 PM	"The Ranger isn't up to par with the other three, unless he's in circumstances that let him showcase his combat style & FEB." That presumes the others can showcase their abilities as well. An archery ranger might do well enough simply sniping the opponent and staying out of sight. That's more to do with archery than the ranger class. And, though you can do some pretty decent archer builds, the damage from a melee design is usually better... In core, the best combat class is usually a fully-buffed cleric. If the spellcasters instead buff the melee guys, then the best combat character is usually the Barbarian with Power Attack, or in certain circumstances the melee battlefield-control tripper guy.
The_Shaman 04-11-07, 07:21 PM	It is archery, sure, but the ranger class definitely helps, when we're talking about sniping and not just pumping someone full of arrows. You've got the right skills for the job (enough SPs, hide, spot and listen as class skills - the only full-BAB class to have those), and a few spells to help along the way. Even the companion can help with some creative uses. All in all, with some multiclassing it's second to none - except for full casters geared towards that particular purpose, of course, but that's the case in pretty much anything. It might not have the sheer power of melee attacks, but sometimes it's more convenient to "reach out and touch someone".
Tony Vargas 04-11-07, 07:28 PM	It is archery, sure, but the ranger class definitely helps, when we're talking about sniping and not just pumping someone full of arrows.True, the ranger is ideally suited for sniping. Sniping is more about avoiding combat though, so I don't think it has much bearing on being a 'best' combatant.
The_Shaman 04-11-07, 07:32 PM	:scratch: I consider it an advanced form of battlefield control, myself ;) . If they can't see you, the "battle" becomes rather one-sided, but the end effect is what you were aiming in the first place - you're alive and the enemy/ies - dead.
Jaxgaret 04-11-07, 07:48 PM	What, no love for the Frenzied Berserker? :) Properly built, it makes an excellent (and mostly party-friendly) melee combatant. EDIT: Alternatively, go the CharOp boards. The Uberer Charger might be what you are looking for, or whatever ungodly beast has bested that build.
BW0222 04-11-07, 07:52 PM	countbubba, What is truly the best combatant in the game thus far? And what's so great about it? And how are you determining who is the best combatant? One-on-one fights with each other? How many rounds they can survive blocking a 5' wide hallway against a single monster of their APL? How long they can survive without healing in a 40'x40' room surrounded by five monsters of a CL three less than their APL? In an anti-magic shell? Fighting on an icy cliff top? Against a horde of kobolds with flasks of oil and javelins up 20' on a stairway. Honestly, you can arrange the situation make almost any character the best combatant. You would honestly have to say... best blocker against a single high CR monster, best offensive meleer against a group, best offensive soloist, etc. You then need to strictly define "best" - almost to the exact situation and foe. If you limit the role of 'combatant' to melee blocker -- someone who will stand in a doorway and whose purpose is to keep folks out and buy those in the rear as long as possible... then the four typical classes are: * TWF ranger. Typically doesn't have the AC or hit points to block well, but usually able to deal out damage fairly quickly. * Barbarian. Lots of hit points and possible rage. Again, typically not the greatest AC, but usually fairly good with damage. Possible DR at higher levels. * Fighter. Good hit points and typically a good AC. Feats often allow better defensive abilities and attacks while maintaining AC. * Paladin. Good hit points and AC. Most other abilities are not that helpful in a pure blocking role. Likely the fighter is best if you went for a pure blocking against other melees until you drop contest. Better AC and feats may keep him alive longer than the barbarians rage and extra hit points. The ranger's extra damage, spells, and animal companion don't help much in this role. Same with the paladin's special abilities. However, such comparisions are so highly specific as to be meaningless in any real game. First, feat, race, skill, and other choices could make any one class better at blocking than another. A dwarven ranger in breast plate with combat expertise... could easily be a better blocker than an elven fighter with point blank shot and rapid shot. Second, the situations are so specific as to be meaningless. Even the most minor changes in the layout, combatants, etc. could make a huge difference. Outdoors, the paladin might have his mount, the ranger might be going first and gain surprise, the barbarian might be able to leap across a pit to attack their leader, etc. Third, you never adventure alone. Does the party need a 100% blocker or can their druid summon stuff to block and an archer would be a better combatant? Does the party have a rogue and a dodge/mobility barbarian might be a better choice because he can get behind folks to help with flanking more often? Forth, you almost never do the same thing for the entire combat. A combatant may be blocking for a few rounds, then moving to provide flanking after the fireballs weaken the bad guys, then possibly going after the rear line enemy casters, then possibly trying to drag the cleric to safety, etc., etc. Generally, you have a number of roles to handle. Everything is a trade off. Honestly, a bard/wizard with ranks in tumble, blink, displacement, shield, mage armor, and protection from evil ... going total defensive... is a mighty good blocker if your sole purpose is to keep a melee combatant out of a 5'x5' square while taking the least damage. Then again, so is a druid putting a waves of summoned animals into the square. However, the later use a lot of resources, but then again, no one needs healing at the end.
Belgian Waffle 04-11-07, 08:21 PM	I'm going to go with Crusader. Regardless of how you handle his recovery method (they need to clear that up bad) the dude is a ridiculous tank. He just takes damage and laughs at you while doing it. His damage output isn't entirely ridiculous, but it's nothing to sneeze at either. A Crusader with a spiked chain should be fairly ridiculous. I'll have to make one at some point.
Talen Lee 04-11-07, 08:37 PM	If we define a 'combat class' as a person best able to end a fight fast, a Half-Elf bard kicks the living bejeebers out of everyone else in this list, seriously. Why play their game? Make them play yours. I'll want your DC 52 will save, Mr guardsman... and yes, this is level 5, what's your point? Now, jokes aside: the 'best combatant' role is not one you determine by smashing these things together like tonka trucks. You can't learn anything that way - all you learn is that paper beats rock and rock beats scissors (film at eleven). And you can't just say 'The Druid' and 'The Cleric', because what makes those guys ridiculous is that they can fight better than most melee and ranged combatants and still be full-powered spellcasters. The highest point of the Barbarian as a melee brute is beyond the highest point of the Druid as a melee brute - but the Druid can go 'not fun any more' and change the battleground (like aforementioned bard). In the core rules, if we presume no prestige classing, the Barbarian steps ahead of the other two real combatants very easily. The Ranger isn't a combat class - he's a rogue who traded sneak attack for the full BAB. A skillmonkey, a trapspringer who can flick out the knives and whale on someone if he has to. The Paladin is decent to acceptable, but his finest action is burst damage, usually from a lance or the like, with a Smite. Burst damage isn't as valuable as damage over time, which the Barbarian brings in spades and has a way to decently burst when he needs it. Once you start reaching out, you find that no pure-class character is as good as a combatant as a multiclassed one; that no core class really stacks up to prestige classes; and that spellcasters, even spellcasting combatants, eventually, trump combatants. In those sad levels, the focus shifts to gish, warminds, warblades, and people who can end fights unfairly, rather than play the 1-5 level game of blocking goblins from escaping. Alas, it's a sad life in the game, and needs some serious fix. It was said that this means the game is unbalanced. It is. It works fine for most play - this isn't a POST OF DOOOOOOOOOM - but the simple fact is that, on a level where you look at the numbers, the emperical facts, there are places where the game is screwed up. This is one of them. Next week, we'll talk about medium armour, spells that oust skills, and buff stacking.
Aminvelos 04-11-07, 08:37 PM	mmm warblade
countbubba 04-11-07, 11:40 PM	I suppose what I meant in the OP, since "best" is an incredibly subjective distinction to make, is "which class or combination of classes do you feel makes for the best combatant thus far, and what makes it so awesome?" I do realize that there's no real objective standard for "best" because, as everything in D&D, it's incredibly variable-based. Personally, I really like the paladin/rogue with the Shadowbane Inquisitor prestige class. You get all the same awesome abilities of a paladin, but are able to bypass a lot of the behavioral restrictions, DM allowing of course. Talk about opening a can of whoopass.
Jaxgaret 04-11-07, 11:48 PM	Personally, I really like the paladin/rogue with the Shadowbane Inquisitor prestige class. You get all the same awesome abilities of a paladin, but are able to bypass a lot of the behavioral restrictions, DM allowing of course. Talk about opening a can of whoopass. If you're bringing up Paladin/Rogue/ShadowbaneInquisitors as a possible suggestion for "best combat class" (that's a combat build, not a class, really), you and I have very different definitions of the word best, my friend. Perhaps you meant to ask in the OP "What non-spellcaster builds do you happen to like to play?"
Keladelros 04-12-07, 12:10 AM	Honestly, I think that the entire thing of saying that one class is better than another is absolute crap. No one gives players any credit in this argument. A character is only as good as it is designed and only as good as the players who play it. No matter what class. I've seen a rogue-kill a fighter one on one and vice versa, A Barbarian knock a paladin, a cleric fugup a druid, a sorcerer pick apart a rogue, a fighter kill a wizard, and any combination not mentioned. Though specialities of a character class hold quite a bit of ground in this argument, the luck of the dice and the way a character is built has a lot more merit.
Ralvuimego 04-12-07, 01:26 AM	As for the most powerful melee class in general (And this includes PrCs), I'm going to have to side with the Frenzied Berserker. Quite possibly the only pre-epic melee class I can think of that can kill the tarrasque in less than 7 hits... With a non-magical Greataxe. (If he's got a scythe, then he can do it in two if he crits)
angryman 04-12-07, 10:07 AM	I'm quite enjoying my level 8 druid at the moment. He's got a decent AC (40) when buffed, which takes one round (not including hour per levels) and can run around as a polar bear with his brown bear companion. He can also cast all his druid spells...yes, druids are that good...
countbubba 04-12-07, 11:29 AM	Perhaps you meant to ask in the OP "What non-spellcaster builds do you happen to like to play?" This is what I've been trying to say all along. Again, I realize that "best" is all in the eye(s) of the beholder.
Mookie37 04-12-07, 01:41 PM	It all really depends on what you wanna do. Want a a tank/battle field controller: Knight is pretty good and it's got descent flavor. Crusader (I feel) is better. Slap stone power and a spiked chain on him and let him bring the pain. A barbarian could fill this roll as well cause they just don't fall down, though they may lack the tactics. Want a pure damage machine: Barbarian or Warblade are good ways. Barbarian keeps it simple; power attack with the biggest weapon you can get your hands on. Warblade has more options but has been mathematically shown to fall ever so slightly behind the damage of the Barbarian but allows it to be done without the lack of civility the Barbarian has. Edit: I will post said math if someone wants me to. TWF: Ranger has the base chassis and that really helps but a warblade or swordsage with Tiger Claw focus can probably do it better. Flashy Swashbuckler: Sadly the class who's name is this fails. Again I default to the warblade with Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. The Swordsage fits this aswell with a more mystical/flashy feel using Diamond Mind and the movement based Desert Wind (though fire damage = blah) Martial Arts: Monk (duh) never a bad choice here. A different option would be Sword Sage with Setting Sun for a more passive Akido "no you don't" sort of feel to it. Of course the fighter works to fill feat gaps but, in my opinion at least, fails at these rolls on its own. In conclusion: tl/dr play what feels right.
Manic Man 04-12-07, 01:53 PM	Personally i just like the sword sage better than the crusader or the warblade but objectively, as a non caster, the warblade should be a better melee combatant Over all best combat winner to me would be the wizard or sorcerer. Their range of save or die spells and number of silly assault spell combos is greater than the cleric or druid, and the best combatant is the one that can take out enemies in 1 round (at least to me). Or maybe the psion doing a nova.
Yalon 04-12-07, 02:06 PM	I'd like to second the vote for multiclassing. When you are a warrior, you lose very little from dipping many many classes. Barbarian is almost always a great first level class, unless you really need the ranger's skills or something. Take Extra Rage for your first level feat and you'll be able to rage three times a day, more than enough for most campaigns. If you're playing with Unearthed Arcana, you might consider making your Barbarian a Wolf Totem barbarian- for Improved Trip at level 2. Very useful at low levels, though it kinda pales as you level up. And giving up Uncanny Dodge is actually quite a hit, unless... You go Warblade next. This is a class designed for dipping in and out of. Basically, look through the maneuvers of the class, and decide what you really need to have. Then take whatever levels are appropriate. Everyone needs Sudden Leap, and Moment of Perfect Mind (your will saves will be laughable in the build, so you need something!). Pick the others according to taste. Fighter is good to dip into now and then, though XP penalties start to rear their ugly head if you're not careful. Being Dragonborn can help, by adding Fighter as a favored class. Plus it gives you flight at 6th level. At this point, you PrC into something fun.
RealSorceror 04-12-07, 02:13 PM	The OE Samurai! Iajutsu!! :gah: Good class skills and skill points, extra bonus feats, plus good Will and Fort.
Keladelros 04-12-07, 03:05 PM	I'm quite enjoying my level 8 druid at the moment. He's got a decent AC (40) when buffed, which takes one round Good lord... what kind of house rules are you running man? A 40 AC at lvl 8 for ANY class is waaayyyyy metagaming. Seriously I'd love to know how you did that according to the rules.
countbubba 04-12-07, 04:59 PM	What book is Crusader in? I'm intrigued. And in response to your level 8 AC 40, that's just awesome. I have a friend who somehow (I can't quite remember how) pulled off having an AC of 54 on a level 11 exalted monk. I do remember that Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty were both at work. He was beasty, because he could still deal out lots of damage, but all of it was nonlethal, no penalty. So if you want to bend the rules, exalted monks can be insane combatants.
cactot 04-12-07, 05:58 PM	crusader is in the book of 9 swords also, and is also my favorite meele class, but its a flavor thing for me. barbarians do more damage (actually rangers and paladins do okay also if you take into consideration the extra spells they get with every new book), and fighters and warblades are more versatile. I do not know which is the most "powerful" as a single classed character.