Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rb200563301 06-18-06, 10:42 AM	Become assasssin at lvl 11. Take Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence. You never intentionally kill. When someone hits you with damage...you can kill them. And besides...who really screws with an assassin.
Witch 06-18-06, 10:46 AM	Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence require you to be exalted. Assassin requires you to be evil.
Tevin Kevlak 06-18-06, 11:20 AM	However, you could take those vows after taking all of your assassin levels since the Assassin PrC doesn't require you to stay evil.
Witch 06-18-06, 11:21 AM	However, you could take those vows after taking all of your assassin levels since the Assassin PrC doesn't require you to stay evil. Many people on these boards would disagree with you.
lion93 06-18-06, 11:33 AM	I don't think it would be a bad concept... the redeemed assassin, travelling the world just trying to atone for his past... but people just won't stop messing with him. Of course, for the story to go like all the old chinese movies, the hero would have to sometime snap and break his vows to kill off the whole gang of baddies and then die at the end, in the rain. A fun story, but not perhaps the one you were looking for.
Tevin Kevlak 06-18-06, 11:39 AM	Many people on these boards would disagree with you. Well that's fine and dandy but by the RAW you do not have to stay evil to retain your assassin abilities. Now, perhaps you mean because you're a member of an assassins guild (as per the prereqs) but you do not have to stay in the assassins guild to retain your class abilities. Using Death Attack isn't evil, well that is to say it's no more evil than Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, or Weird. The only thing that could prevent the Assassin from becoming and staying good is if you choose to make use of poisons... if you want to take those vows I'd suggest you lay off the poison use.
PoorHobo 06-18-06, 11:44 AM	Well I don't see how this is an assassin. You take a 1 level dip into the class, then turn good. So out of twenty levels you have one assassin level, are not part of a guild that kills people for money, doesn't kill people at all actually - No only that you are now exalted. What exalted being refers to themsleves as an assassin? (rhetorical question). So your not an assassin by trade, in thought, and only have one in twenty classes named after abilities you learned while be evil. How is this an assassin concept?
Tevin Kevlak 06-18-06, 11:50 AM	Ok, well you can take more than 1 level in assassin if you wanted to... you could take them all :P . Also, an assassin doesn't have to be part of a guild to be an assassin, in fact you don't even have to have any Assassin class levels to be an assassin. And you can still kill people as long as you're only trying to kill them back :D . I figure what this concept is trying to come across as is a reformed assassin. You don't have to still call yourself an assassin to retain knowledge you picked up in your unsavory former profession.
PoorHobo 06-18-06, 12:01 PM	Ok, well you can take more than 1 level in assassin if you wanted to... you could take them all :P . Also, an assassin doesn't have to be part of a guild to be an assassin, in fact you don't even have to have any Assassin class levels to be an assassin. And you can still kill people as long as you're only trying to kill them back :D . I figure what this concept is trying to come across as is a reformed assassin. You don't have to still call yourself an assassin to retain knowledge you picked up in your unsavory former profession. It still boils down to being exalted and nonviolent somehow being reffered to as an assassin(Even a reformed assasin sounds bad for an exalted character me thinks.) The concept isn't bad (a redeemed evil person may be old but its not bad) Killing people an doesn't make you an assasin, belonging to a guid doesn;'t make you an assassin (you could just be numbers clerk or a lwayer for the guild) My point was that if you don't assassinate anybody, how is this an assassin concept? Retain knowledge, sure, its not written out of the rules (it should be and were I dming I would but that is besides the point) but I think if you were exalted(and nonviolent to boot) you would be looking at your abilites in a different manner.
Witch 06-18-06, 12:36 PM	Well that's fine and dandy but by the RAW you do not have to stay evil to retain your assassin abilities. Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class. I hate the rule, and don't think it should apply to core classes, but the rule is printed, so it's RAW, unfortunately.
SalParadise 06-18-06, 12:59 PM	Why not just play the exalted assassin type PrC from the BoE and do the same thing?
K 06-18-06, 01:02 PM	If you are willing to concede that you can have the tenth level of Dragon Disciple, then you can have the tenth level of Assassin and be Good. Same book, same rules. Remember the Primary Source Rule, where if a splatbook contradicts the DMG on the subject of Prestige Classes, the DMG's text wins. Similarly to how the Player's Handbook has a very different rule for the castig times of Spell-like Abilities than does the Monster Manual (the PHB says that the casting time of a spell-like is a standard action unless the ability or spell has a different casting time listed, while the Monster Manual says that a spell-like has a casting time of 1 standard actio unless the ability says otherwise, an extremely different rule because every spell has a casting time). Of course, the primary source rule says that the Monster Manual is the primary source for Spell-like abilities. That means that the text on page 180 of the PHB mean nothing. The text on page 19 or whatever of the Complete Warrior means nothing as well. Just like how the text in the Complete Divine about how pre-epic characters can't take the last four levels of True Nrecromancer is also non-text. If it contradicts the Primary Source, it is discounted automatically unless the DM wants to port it in as an optional rule.
rogue_lettuce 06-18-06, 01:59 PM	You can kill people that are attacking you if you have vow of peace and vow of nonviolence? Wow. I must have really misread those feats. :confused:
VonRichthofen 06-18-06, 02:05 PM	You can kill people that are attacking you if you have vow of peace and vow of nonviolence? Wow. I must have really misread those feats. :confused: You didn't. You can kill somebody. Once. Afterwards, you're no longer exalted and possibly blasted to atoms by your former nobler-than-thou deity.... The idea is thus utter and total crap.
belthazzar1113 06-18-06, 02:12 PM	seems like your going to have a hard time with any dm that understands what exhalted means. you ahve to be exhalted to take VoP and VoNV, but then to pick up levels of the assassin PrC you ahve to be evil and commit and evil act. If you try to get assassin after you get your vows you lose the vows being for becoming evil. and after you are that evil and commit all those evil acts you can't be exhalted. this is just impossible and a rather blatnent attempt to start a pointless argument.
Ziggaraut 06-18-06, 02:18 PM	Not to mention you'd have to be a pretty crappy assassin if you have to be hit before you can kill someone.
CryoSilver 06-18-06, 07:49 PM	Your death attack after a 1 lvl dip would also have a DC of 11+mod; not very scary unless you're killing puppies or something.
highbulp 06-18-06, 07:57 PM	Since it's questionable even at a long stretch, what's the point of taking either the PrC or the feats? If you want to play someone who only fights back when they're attacked, do that. Just play a straight rogue or fighter or barbarian (who might work well--only use the rage when someone really pisses you off) and ignore all the other stuff. Then you still get the neat flavor lion93 mentioned, but non of the conflicting rules stuff.
belthazzar1113 06-18-06, 08:01 PM	i really think this like the other two assassin threads up right now are a reasponse to the flamewar people are waging on the Assassin but Good thread. People getting fed up and trying to make new threads to get their own personal point of views or pet arguments out. This one is really showing how absurd you can get with an assassin who is an exhalted character. *shrug* chuck the alignment system and i am of the opinion that the BoVD and BoED should be off limits. But if your willing to have that material and ignore the alignment system then this combination works. even then its not a very good combination. since the moment you attack you lose all of it and are a character with 3 feats in the hole you can't get back.
IV 06-18-06, 09:05 PM	Assassin threads really seem to get people on the uproar so creating yet another assassin thread might not have been the best concept. However, since the damage has been done... Really, your concept is interesting, but it would be up to the individual DM to allow this. Some people believe that once an assassin always an assassin, and if you ever leave, you would loose your abilities. The DMG doesn't actually state this as being true though, so like I said, up to the individual DM.
VonRichthofen 06-19-06, 04:31 AM	You obviously didn't get it.
rogue_lettuce 06-19-06, 05:12 AM	You didn't. You can kill somebody. Once. Afterwards, you're no longer exalted and possibly blasted to atoms by your former nobler-than-thou deity.... The idea is thus utter and total crap. Good, that's what I thought, but I didn't want to jump on the OP straight away.
K 06-19-06, 01:43 PM	Look, I understand that the Book of Exalted Deeds is a terrible book that can't go 2 pages without contradicting itself as to the meaning of Good, and that reading it is actually painful. But did noone actually read the abilities i question? Vow of Nonviolence says that you get a +4 to the DC of your special abilities as long as those special abilities don't inflict damage. Death Attack doesn't inflict damage, it triggers when you inflict damage but itself only inflicts a status effect, so it actually qualifies for that bonus. That bonus doesn't stack with Spell Focus, but it stacks with feats that improve Death Attack because none of those are Spell Focus. Vow of Peace slows down combat to a crawl because all your opponents have to make saves and run around just to be able to attack at all. With combat going a such a glacial pace, the 3 rounds for assassin study become a lot more manageable. Death Attack triggers off of any successful sneak attack, including non-lethal sneak attacks delivered with a sap. If the Sneak Attack succeeds, the Death Attack can deliver a Death Effect or it can Paralyze the target. You lose the benefis of the vow of peace if you do normal damage or use the death version of your own death attack - but as long as you opt for paralysis, you're fine. It's a brilliant combo that totally works. Stop being offended and actually read the descriptions of the abilities that people are using. Your targets are: Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 47 Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 48 Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 180 For crying out loud, it's just 2 atonements to setup the character. Or a Helm of Opposite Alignment and an atonement. In fact, such a character should have a Helm of Opposite Alignment, because once they paralyze an Evil target they can spend the next grip of rounds taking the helmet on and off their inert head hoping to turn them permanently Good. We have over 20 responses, and as far as I can tell not a single person actually read what the suggested combo actually does - which as it turns out is totally awesome and synergistic. Bravo to the OP! This is a fine example of using the Book of Exalted Deeds as well as it can be.
rogue_lettuce 06-19-06, 03:17 PM	For crying out loud, it's just 2 atonements to setup the character. Or a Helm of Opposite Alignment and an atonement. Erm... No. Sorry, but ANYONE who says it's just two atonements would be banned from playing alignment-specific classes/PrCs in my game. Since when did two sudden and absolute u-turns in your perspective on life, with permanent effects, become a small thing? And this is by no means a good way to use the BOED. Although I'll agree the combo you've named may well work [and I didnt realise that the death attack could work on a subdual attack], the roleplaying 'flavour' of it is bitter to my palate. Maybe it's just me, but from the looks of other replies, it would appear not.
travellersside 06-20-06, 05:49 AM	Vow of Peace slows down combat to a crawl because all your opponents have to make saves and run around just to be able to attack at all. With combat going a such a glacial pace, the 3 rounds for assassin study become a lot more manageable. The setup for Death Attack only works if the target "doesn't recognise you as an enemy" (or can't detect you) So, either you turn invisible, which makes Vow of Peace irrelevant, or...? The nutshell is that all this is happening because there's a fight on. If so, and they're fighting against you, they already consider you to be an enemy. Whether they're allowed to attack is irrelevant - the fact that they consider you to be an enemy cancels out the Death Attack setup.
belthazzar1113 06-20-06, 05:59 AM	you have to understand that K is a litteralist about the rules. Death attack is a special effect added to a sneak attack, so it shouldn't qualify for the bonus since VoP excludes abilities that need to deal damage as part of their delivery method (i belive it mentions a snake injecting venom as the example) as far as the set up goes... it flies in the face of everything ehalted feats are supposed to be, but assuming you don't mind chucking the alignment system, and have a cleric willing to cast a few dozen atonments per day or get mind raped everynight to reset your personality to the peaceful assassin then you should be fine.... though... i have seen alot easyer ways to go about being silly, and alot more powerful ways of being powerful... mabey add vow of poverty so you can death attack with your pinky, and add touch of golden ice so that your doing a ravage at the same time. And since K belives death attack isn't an evil ability it should qualify for exhalted ability focus... so sure, you can make a vow of non violence assassin... just don't think about it or you might dissapear in a puff of logic.
Ehriol 06-27-06, 11:04 PM	Actually the death attack has a merciful option to not kill remember? How an evil character can be merciful and i think that the restriccion of " be evil " is a little unfair... remember that there are many prestiges iin the complete divine for example that have more evil abilities and the restriction is " non good" thats completely unfair ... What would said Silas from Da Vinci Code , the lawful good assassin eh ? another quote ... i think aligments are circular ... so a extreme lawful good is near to reach the dark side of evil ... so many lawful goods dont know the word mercy when they stand in front of evil...
shadow mage 06-28-06, 01:10 AM	Mechanically it's a sound idea. Pretty neat too. Is it doable in-game wise? That's entirely dependant on the person running the game. And anybody attempting to label this as "another assassin alignment thread" would be incorrect, since this is a discussion about rules specifically. Belthazzar, do not name people out specifically, especially in a negative light when their comment is quite relevant to the original post and shows that mechanically it can work. Which might well be all the original poster was seeking verification on. On a side note, another good assassin concept is the idea of a psychic warrior/elocater/psychic assassin, using the psychic warrior's powers to augment physical stats so you can effectively use both Wisdom and Intelligence. Ability Focus (death attack) is also a good feat to have. Ring of Invisibility clicks on, buffs come up (animal affinity, claws of the beast, form of doom, offensive precognition, offensive prescience), appear suddenly in the midst of several enemies you have been studying for a few rounds, and much fun for all. :) -Shadow Mage
camway 06-28-06, 03:54 AM	However, you could take those vows after taking all of your assassin levels since the Assassin PrC doesn't require you to stay evil. he's right he wouldn't have to stay evil, however in taking the vows, he'd lose all his assassin abilities, including the death attack poison use and resistance.
rogue_lettuce 06-28-06, 07:36 AM	he's right he wouldn't have to stay evil, however in taking the vows, he'd lose all his assassin abilities, including the death attack poison use and resistance. According to the rules in the CW etc, which sometimes don't make sense (DD for instance)... But with this PrC I guess they would.
runestar 06-28-06, 07:43 AM	I could argue that a redeemed assassin would at best be LG, but could never be exalted. ;)
belthazzar1113 06-28-06, 10:26 AM	Vow of Nonviolence says that you get a +4 to the DC of your special abilities as long as those special abilities don't inflict damage. Death Attack doesn't inflict damage, it triggers when you inflict damage but itself only inflicts a status effect, if you go back and actually take another read that +4 doesn't apply to an effect that requires damage as part of its delivery. this is why it doesn't affect poisons that have to be delivered via a bite or sting attack. It would affect a touch poison, but not an injury. This also means it won't affect death attack since you are required to sneak attack and deal damage to deliver the attack. And since it mentions you can't use it on an effect that causes death its doubly out. Death Attack triggers off of any successful sneak attack, including non-lethal sneak attacks delivered with a sap. this is a very definite hole in the rules, being able to death attack with subdual damage. I don't think you will find many DMs that would allow this combination to work. Paralize with the subdual option would be fine, but death attack with a sap? the entire point of a sap is that it won't kill your opponent... so it makes very little sense that your going to have a save or die sap. But since this character can't do this anyway since the vow doesn't work on effects that cause death... as far as trying to do a subdual sneak paralize attack and get the plus 4 who knows, if your dm allowed you to be exhalted and an assassin then whats one more questionable call? It's a brilliant combo that totally works. Stop being offended and actually read the descriptions of the abilities that people are using. you might want to check out page 9. Assassins require evil alignments and thus the use of the assassin class would be considered an "evil means" and if you look the book of exhalted deeds says that it is never a good act to use evil means to acheive a good end, no matter what. And since your exhalted just taking a level of the assassin class would make you evil and thus lose your exhalted status, if you ever lose your evil status you lose your assasin class abilities as per Complete warrior page 19. The combo is effectly impossible unless your bending rules somewhere or are able to be both good and evil at the same time without exploding in a blast of logic. If you want to ignore the rules about mainting requirements for a PrC... and you want to ignore the fact you have an evil class but remain Exhalted... and you want to allow something as simple as atonement to restore exhalted status while skipping over the "suitable penance" portion of the requirement and thus trumping DM fiat... and you allow a minor aftifact of the helm of opposite alignment... then sure, i don't think this combo is going to be the least of the absurdities to hit the table. so rock on with your vow of peace assassin. :rolleyes:
K 06-28-06, 02:00 PM	this is a very definite hole in the rules, being able to death attack with subdual damage. I don't think you will find many DMs that would allow this combination to work. Paralize with the subdual option would be fine, but death attack with a sap? Yeah... because Vow of Nonviolence actually shuts off forever if you outright kill people. You have to use the paralyze option. Then you put the helm of opposite alignment on their head once per round until they come to and hope they failed a save at some point and turned good. It's literally not important in any way whether you could use the death option on your death attack - because you are never going to do that as it woul end your character. If you want to ignore the rules about mainting requirements for a PrC... There is no such rule in the DMG, the book where the Assassin is located. The Dragon Disciple (also in the DMG) would be very upset if such a rule were implemented.
simon_tage 06-28-06, 03:39 PM	There is no such rule in the DMG, the book where the Assassin is located. The Dragon Disciple (also in the DMG) would be very upset if such a rule were implemented. True, the DMG is lax in what happens if you no longer qualify. I still within the games I run say that if you no longer could enter the class than you lose the abilities as per the Complete books notation. The assassin has to be evil to join (and in my opinion maintain) the class but becoming evil is not a function of the class. As far as that affects the Dragon Disciple...becoming a dragon is a function of the class not a pre req to enter it so I don't see becoming a dragon as counter intuitive to the pre reqs. Also the pre-reqs do specify that the character cannot already be a half dragon. Again I think this allows for the later change. Yes by a very strict reading of the above rule you would technically no longer qualify for the class. What would you lose? If the DM was that strict in his interpretation of the rule you would lose your blindsense and perhaps your bonus spells (although I am unsure on the last). Does anyone know if you lose caster levels if you no longer qualify for a PRC (as per the rule in the complete books)?
K 06-28-06, 03:59 PM	It's not in all of the complete books. It's rather pointedly missing from the Complete Divine, which is good news for th Ur Priest, who would otherwise lose his spellcasting if he had it).
belthazzar1113 06-28-06, 06:01 PM	well, this was enjoyable, but this isn't worth the time to debate. this whole argument falls into the Rule Zero : don't be stupid -- catigory. there really isn't any call for something this out there and this insane, if anything it jus tneed to be moved over to the char op boards since its nothing but a strange random powergame. see ya.