Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nioch 11-25-05, 09:38 AM	My dread necro is on the verge of being able to take a familiar. I was wondering which is the best. I don't see any reason not to take either the quasit or imp even though i'm trying to find a reason for the ghostly visage and vargouille. Is there any reason to take the latter other than flavor?
Shadow Wraith 11-25-05, 11:17 AM	Personally I'd just take the 'Stiched Flesh Familiar' feat from the Libris Mortis and get one of those. That way you get a cool undead familiar and can animate even more minions. :ayyyy!:
KobaldArchmage 11-25-05, 11:24 AM	ghostly visage grants immunity to (mind-affecting) effects and can hide in your body
Nioch 11-25-05, 11:25 AM	the dread necro familiar list is small but do they gain benefits from stitched flesh? ghostly visage is nulled this on obviously
malisteen 11-25-05, 11:33 AM	Actually, stitched flesh familiar isn't realy worth it for DN. I mean, they can already control so many undead via animate dead that a couple more hit dice won't amount to anything, and besides, at that point it's indirect control that matters more (ie, how many hit dice of undead can your followers control? How many undead can the spawning undead under your control spawn?). Anyway, SFF is an upgrade for regular familiars, not improved familiars. Since your DN already essentially has improved familiar, it's like you're throwing a feat away. I'd definitally stick to the Imp or Quasit, depending on alignment. If Varghoilyolios (sorry, can't spell 'em) could control their spawn then you might want one, but it can't, so you don't. The imp or quasit can at least disguise itself as a regular familiar, minimizing the fire and pitchforks reaction from random townsfolk.
Nioch 11-25-05, 11:40 AM	that's what i was thinking on SFF and am glad to get a clarification thanks
a_psh 11-25-05, 03:15 PM	Quasits, because they have those big cute horns.
General_Ridley 11-25-05, 03:24 PM	Actually, stitched flesh familiar isn't realy worth it for DN. I mean, they can already control so many undead via animate dead that a couple more hit dice won't amount to anything, and besides, at that point it's indirect control that matters more (ie, how many hit dice of undead can your followers control? How many undead can the spawning undead under your control spawn?). Anyway, SFF is an upgrade for regular familiars, not improved familiars. Since your DN already essentially has improved familiar, it's like you're throwing a feat away. I'd definitally stick to the Imp or Quasit, depending on alignment. If Varghoilyolios (sorry, can't spell 'em) could control their spawn then you might want one, but it can't, so you don't. The imp or quasit can at least disguise itself as a regular familiar, minimizing the fire and pitchforks reaction from random townsfolk. Good reasons for the imp/quasit. Fortunately, the dread Necromancer advances his familiar exactly like a regular familiar, so SFF could work.
Doomed_Penguin 11-25-05, 07:29 PM	I'd go with SFF if you have the room for the feat, but I'm :looloo: INSANE :looloo: , so don't trust me...
Vestigial_Thumb 11-25-05, 08:18 PM	I'm :looloo: INSANE :looloo: , so don't trust me... Hahahahah! Oh, you will be my new apprentice in the arts and crafts of slaughtering innocent lives.
Franco Un-American 11-25-05, 09:41 PM	Well, from a mechanical viewpoint, the Ghostly Visage is clearly the best. It gives (IIRC) immunity to mind-affecting effects, making you essentially immune to 25% of spells (all (or nearly all) illusions and enchantments). From a flavour standpoint, it's really determined by the character.
malisteen 11-25-05, 10:40 PM	SFF specifically says it uses the regular Familiar list in the PHB. This means you are deciding between: Imp/Quasit + a feat Undead bird/rat + 4 hit dice skeleton/zombie + 4 hit dice undead controllable by rebuking. There are a lot of nice feats for the DN, so the feat really does mean something. Tomb Tainted Soul, Spell Focus Necromancy, Improved Spell Focus Necromancy, Necromantic Presence, Necromantic Might, Corpsecrafter (admittedly less then ideal because the bonus doesn't stack with the DN's class ability, but it does grant access to...), Destruction Retribution, Bolster Resistance, Improved Turning, Heighten Spell, Mother Cyst, Graft Flesh (admittedly at later levels), etc; and only 8 slots, assuming you're a human to begin with. The Imp/Quasit can disguise itself, so you don't have to spend effort of your own to do so. The Imp/Quasit is more powerful on its own, is more survivable and delivers touch attacks more easily, can speak (which a stitched flesh raven cannot do), and has it's own special attacks and abilities. The SFF itself is relatively negligable. About the best it can offer is transfered touch attacks. As an additional drawback, it is subject to turning/rebuking, and can be outright destroyed by any significant opponant who happens to be a cleric of Pelor, and as a DN you can count on going up against clerics of Pelor (or whatever the equivalent is in your campaign) regularly. The extra 4 hit dice of skeletons or zombies is negligable, considering you'll already be controlling hundreds of hit dice of skells or zombies through animate dead, and four more doesn't mean much, especially with 'Command Undead' on your spell list.. The extra four hit dice controlled through rebuking is significant, as rebuking allows complete and permanent control of intelligent spawning undead. I cannot deny the usefulness of an extra wight or low level vampire. Still, I don't think it counters the benefits of a flat out better familiar AND an extra feat, and you don't want a whole family of vampire servants to turn on you because a cleric popped your familiar. It is important to note that SFF doesn't change the way you attract a familiar, so it doesn't benefit from any bonuses that you grant to undead you create (although it will benefit from Necromantic Presence, and at your hit dice it shouldn't exactly be easy to turn or destroy) The SFF isn't bad for a Dread Necromancer. If the DN didn't already have an improved familiar list I'd reccomend it for the extra hit dice of undead through rebuke. But given that your familiars are already better then normal it just doesn't seem like it's worth a feat to me.