Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gunther 05-23-04, 08:50 PM	What would be the best build if you want to build a character who dual wields with a main longsword and a offhand shortsword as his two weapons? I know that you can master two weapon fighting as a 3.5 Ranger, but can't you get more out of this with the use of Fighter levels as well to add feats that maximize damage etc...? Are there any prestige classes that work well with this?
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-24-04, 02:33 AM	Originally posted by Gunther What would be the best build if you want to build a character who dual wields with a main longsword and a offhand shortsword as his two weapons? I know that you can master two weapon fighting as a 3.5 Ranger, but can't you get more out of this with the use of Fighter levels as well to add feats that maximize damage etc...? Are there any prestige classes that work well with this? The ranger, fighter, and rogue all do wonders with TWF. The samurai from the complete warrior can also get it automatically. The dervish PrC also works well with TWF-oriented characters. There's also the Tempest from "masters of the wild" splatbook, but it's only mediocre. (though it does get rid of the -2 penelty for TWF with an off-hand weapon and reduces the TWF penelty for fighting w/ a nonlight weapon in the off-hand to a -2.) In general, any class that gets a flat bonus to damage does extremely well with TWF. (The bard w/ arcane strike & TWF is also pretty good.)
Capn Charlie 05-24-04, 03:03 AM	I also highly reccomend at least 3 levels in the Swashbuckler class from complete warrior. It allows you to add your int bonus to damage rolls wit hfinesseable weapons. On top of str. Sweet, huh?
argorond 05-24-04, 03:57 AM	Capn charlie and with 3 rogue lvl:s you get 2d6 sneak attack so it isnt so good..
Sisyfos 05-24-04, 04:43 AM	Capn Charlie was on the right track. Dual wielders need bonus damage (sneak attack, or extra ability mods to damage etc.) to be effective. So this is a rough version of a pretty OK dualwielder: 1 rog1 1d6SA, TWF, Dodge 2 rog2 Evasion 3 rog3 Mobility, 2d6SA 4 rog3/swashb1 Weapon finesse 5 rog3/swashb2 Grace+1 6 rog3/swashb3 Spring attack, insightful strike 7 rog3/swashb3/assn1 3d6SA 8 rog3/swashb3/assn2 Uncanny dodge 9 rog3/swashb3/assn3 ITWF, 4d6SA 10 rog3/swashb3/assn4 11 rog3/swashb3/assn5 5d6SA, Improved uncanny dodge 12 rog3/swashb3/assn6 Blindfight 13 rog3/swashb3/assn7 6d6SA 14 rog3/swashb3/assn8 HiPS 15 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord1 GTWF, shadow sight, shadow jump 16 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord2 Shadow blur 17 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord3 shadow walk 18 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord4 Improved Init, shadow pounce 19 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord5 Shadow discorporation 20 rog3/swashb3/assn8/teflammar-shadowlord6 Death attack 32 point buy: STR 10 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA 10 So we have: - Int to damage (boost with headband and items) - Int to death attack DC (base DC=10+8+6=24) - 6d6 SA damage - Shadow pounce (full attack after dimension door) - BAB: 2+3+6+4=15 = equal to normal rogue (ideally one should have BAB 16+ pre-epic. By switching rogue for ninja this could be accomplished, but at the expence of quite some skillpoints) - Hide in plain sight - 4th level assassin spells - Good skillpoints and skill lists So this character makes 6 attacks after dimension door (which gives a good possibility to surprise/flank your opponent). Each attack does weapon damage+6d6+STR+INT if they hit. Turning those attacks into touch attacks is not too tough (certain items+spells can accomplish this and this character has use magic device as a class skill). Its a pretty good example of a nice TWF fighter. It could be improved of course. Sisyfos
Sensei Gith 05-24-04, 08:11 AM	I was going to post a super-SA monster, but Sisyfos beat me to it.
Capn Charlie 05-24-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by argorond Capn charlie and with 3 rogue lvl:s you get 2d6 sneak attack so it isnt so good.. I stand by the swashbuckler levels. A sneak attack bonus, while nice, is pretty damn situational. With the swashbucklr levels you get pretty nice array of skills, a bonus feat, full bab, d10 hit dice, a +1 to reflex saves, and full martial weapon proficiency. So I stand by the swashbuckler levels 100%.
Gunther 05-24-04, 03:26 PM	Thanks guys. I guess I should have said more about my character concept. While some of those builds are good, they don't make sense for this character. He is not evil (I assume assn is Assassin) for instance. I try to balance character idea with the build designs. I was thinking something like a Ftr/Rng/Rog. While I want him to be a good dual wielder, there are other considerations. I think a lot of time with these builds it's not taken into consideration non-combat versitility and adventure situations. I want him to have the ability to cast a few of the nice "buff" ranger spells like Cat's Grace plus I want to get the most out of the Fighter feats, so I would like to take 12 levels of Fighter with a 20 level build I think. Rogue's sneak attack is nice, however this character has a high strength and dexterity so Swashbuckler sounds interesting. I really need to get the Complete Warrior book, I was looking through it today it looked very nice. I like to focus more on a idea and try to get the most out of a build, I know it's not "optimal", but it's more in line with what I had in mind. What about a 10 Ftr/ 5 Rng/ 5 Rog? I don't get the extra feat, but I get the divine casting, a second favored enemy, plus the second sneak attack improvement. The reason I like the Ranger with this idea is that it helps him with the rigors of wilderness travel, and added with the Rog levels, his hide and move silently skills are high.
Sisyfos 05-24-04, 03:50 PM	Originally posted by Gunther What about a 10 Ftr/ 5 Rng/ 5 Rog? I don't get the extra feat, but I get the divine casting, a second favored enemy, plus the second sneak attack improvement. The reason I like the Ranger with this idea is that it helps him with the rigors of wilderness travel, and added with the Rog levels, his hide and move silently skills are high. So, a new try based on your desires. I think that fighter 12 is overdoing it for this kind of a character, but this might work: Rog11/Rang6/swashb3 - It is not nearly as good as the original build I presented, but it is still pretty decent. You get 2 free combat style feats from ranger, int to damage from swashbuckler + one free weapon finesse feat, and 6d6 SA + loads of skills + evasion + uncanny dodges from rogue. Other more fighter oriented option: Fig4/Rog7/Rang6/swashb3 - Bonus feats from all around plus nice addition to TWF damage. Good skills. Still even more fighter oriented: Fig8/rog7/rang2/swashb3 - Worse skills, but one more useful feat. Now pick what you like RP wise. Also remember that building this kind of a character STR is not that important, but dex plays a large role. He is best as a fast and accurate combatant instead of a hulking brute. If you have high pointbuy the STR route becomes more and more tempting. Sisyfos
SaintX 06-21-04, 02:59 AM	Sisyfos, is it possible to work in a level of monk into teh assassin shadowlord build? this would add full strength to damage on all of your attacks while adding an extra attack. a pair of +1 kamas with the deadly precision(+2d6 SA) enhancement from MH would make it oh so sweet during a shadow pounce, especially if hasted.
kdogg3403 07-26-04, 09:51 PM	Where do you find the stats on the Shadow Lord?
Christian Landry 07-26-04, 09:57 PM	The Telflammar Shadowlord is in Unapproachable East.
kdogg3403 07-26-04, 10:35 PM	What are the requirments for a Swashbuckler?
TheDarkestOfAngels 07-26-04, 10:57 PM	Originally posted by kdogg3403 What are the requirments for a Swashbuckler? a swashbuckler is a 20 level base class in the complete warrior book. It's requirements are.... well... the same as that as any other 20 level class.
Sisyfos 07-26-04, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by SaintX Sisyfos, is it possible to work in a level of monk into teh assassin shadowlord build? this would add full strength to damage on all of your attacks while adding an extra attack. a pair of +1 kamas with the deadly precision(+2d6 SA) enhancement from MH would make it oh so sweet during a shadow pounce, especially if hasted. The only thing that could be dropped for the monk level is the 3rd level of the rogue. That would lead to exp penalties though. The only way to avoid exp penalties that I see would be to drop all rogue levels and take 3 monk levels instead. I don't know without checking my books if you can still manage the assassins requirements without feats like versatile. Anyhow, it is possible to include monk in the build, but you lose power-wise if you do it. Sisyfos
roll8dn 07-27-04, 01:57 AM	I know that you wanted a TWF build for a longsword/shortsword build, but how about looking into the Elven Thinblade and Lightblade? (I can hear it now, "Swishy-poker!") Yes, you have to burn two feats to get it, but it might be worth it. If not, burn one and get the Thinblade (longsword damage, rapier crit range, and finessable) and use it with your shortsword. I am assuming a human build for the extra feat at first level: 1.)Fighter 1: EWP (Thinblade), EWP (Lightblade), TWF 2.)Fighter 2: Dodge 3.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 1: Mobility, Weapon Finesse 4.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 2: Grace +1 5.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3: Insightful Strike 6.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 4: Combat Expertise 7.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 4/ Barbarian 1: Fast Movement, Rage (Whirling Frenzy variant) 1/day 8.)Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 4/ Barbarian 2: Uncanny Dodge 9.)Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 4/ Barbarian 2: Imp Crit (Thinblade) 10.)Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 5/ Barbarian 2: Dodge bonus +1 11.)Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 5/ Barbarian 3: Uncanny Dodge 12.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 5/ Barbarian 3: Whirlwind Attack, Imp TWF 13.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 5/ Barbarian 4: Rage 2/day 14.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 5/ Barbarian 5: Improved Uncanny Dodge 15.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 6/ Barbarian 5: Imp Crit (Lightblade) 16.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 7/ Barbarian 5: Acrobatic Charge 17.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 8/ Barbarian 5: Improved Flanking 18.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 9/ Barbarian 5: Greater TWF 19.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 10/ Barbarian 5: Dodge Bonus +2 20.)Fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 11/ Barbarian 5: Grace +2, Lucky So, all in all, you get: 15-20 (nonmagic) crit range on both weapons; 1d8+3 damage with your primary hand; 1d6+3 damage with your off hand; +2 bonus on Reflex Saves; Improved Uncanny Dodge; Intelligence bonus to damage; Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack; +2 extra Dodge Bonus to AC; Weapon Finesse; 3 attacks with your off hand; a base land speed of 40 feet; the ability to gain a +4 to strength and a +2 to AC, along with the ability to gain an extra attack each round while in a frenzy that stacks with the TWF (which you can do twice a day for 5 rounds a piece); +4 to hit bonuses when flanking; and the ability to reroll one bad roll a day. All in all, not a bad combination. I do respect the fact that you wanted the ability to cast buff spells upon yourself, but I think that this build is a little more combat-oriented. Besides, if the party has a Sorcerer or Wizard, or you go to the magic store, you can pick up buff spells to make your day nicer. With a point buy of 32, you can get: Str 10 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8 Put the first three stat boosts into Dex to qualify for Greater TWF, and the fourth into Con for the extra hit points and the extra round of frenzy.
Enaloindir 07-27-04, 02:17 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos: Rog11/Rang6/Swashb3 Fig4/Rog7/Rang6/Swashb3 Fig8/rog7/Rang2/Swashb3 With these builds, you'll face an XP penalty...it might not reduce the validity of the build, but you'll have to wait a bit longer to achieve full combat power. Originally posted by roll8dn: 2.)Fighter 2: Imp Crit (Thinblade) Since Impr. Crit has a prereq of BAB+8, you'll need to switch around a few feats (probably dodge/mobility) Enaloindir
roll8dn 07-27-04, 02:40 AM	Originally posted by Enaloindir Since Impr. Crit has a prereq of BAB+8, you'll need to switch around a few feats (probably dodge/mobility) Enaloindir [/B] Thank you for pointing that out, Enaloidir. It is now fixed.
Mitchell 07-27-04, 02:46 AM	If you are using thinblades, then look into the improved weapon familiarity feat in the Complete Warrior as well. You would want to go with a 1/2 elf, but with one feat, you would get two exotic weapon proficiencies. I'm looking at a swashbuckler/rogue or swashbuckler/ranger (I have a backstory that makes sense), but haven't decided for sure yet, just that I will start as a swashbuckler, and have no plans for a PrC.
Sisyfos 07-27-04, 02:51 AM	Originally posted by Enaloindir With these builds, you'll face an XP penalty...it might not reduce the validity of the build, but you'll have to wait a bit longer to achieve full combat power. Nods. Exp penalty is always a big no-no. I just whipped those combos up fast for something different and forgot that swashb is a core class. They should be modified so that one does not get an exp penalty before they are played. Sisyfos
roll8dn 07-27-04, 02:54 AM	Originally posted by Mitchell If you are using thinblades, then look into the improved weapon familiarity feat in the Complete Warrior as well. You would want to go with a 1/2 elf, but with one feat, you would get two exotic weapon proficiencies. Cool, I did not notice that. Then you could be an elf and gain the use of the extra Dex. Admittedly, it would drop the number of rounds that Frenzy is usable and the HP a bit, but that migth be made up for with the extra To-Hit modifer and higher AC. Hmmm... And about your character, well I'd be willing to help, just PM me.
elindred 07-27-04, 03:12 AM	what about a double-weapon fighter? that would let you apply your focus/specialization feats to both weapons at once. also, i believe power attack would work properly with both ends, unlike a one-handed weapon/light weapon build. yeah, insightful strike is just too good to pass up. i'm not sure what they were thinking when they wrote it up, but we'll just play with it for now. how 'bout a fighter 4/swashbuckler 3/rogue 3/(prc) 10 build using a double sword? it would get you specialization, insightful strike and 2 dice of sneak attack. as for the prc, it could be something like dervish or maybe kensai. also, straight samurai seems fairly powerful to me because you get the feats without having to suffer either an armour restriction or a dex requirement, so you can don some great armour or full plate and put all your points into strength.
Sisyfos 07-27-04, 04:44 AM	Originally posted by SaintX Sisyfos, is it possible to work in a level of monk into teh assassin shadowlord build? this would add full strength to damage on all of your attacks while adding an extra attack. a pair of +1 kamas with the deadly precision(+2d6 SA) enhancement from MH would make it oh so sweet during a shadow pounce, especially if hasted. If you are interested in TWF type of fighting when unarmed there exists an extremely powerful option "the king of smack" http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227556&perpage=50&pagenumber=1 Among the "unarmed" fast and furious fighters this one is probably the best with damage potential somewhere between 1000-2000 points/round at good attack bonuses... while healing half of that himself during that same round. Sisyfos
SaintX 07-27-04, 11:27 AM	i know the thread, i know it well, i know it very well.
Nick Soapdish 07-27-04, 08:35 PM	Originally posted by roll8dn Cool, I did not notice that. Then you could be an elf and gain the use of the extra Dex. Admittedly, it would drop the number of rounds that Frenzy is usable and the HP a bit, but that migth be made up for with the extra To-Hit modifer and higher AC. Hmmm... And about your character, well I'd be willing to help, just PM me. If he makes it an elf, then there's an experience point penalty from 6th level on. You can jigger the levels so that it kicks in later, but it'll eventually be a 40% penalty from 16th level on.
ninjarabbit 07-27-04, 09:14 PM	Pretty much rogue3/fighter4/swashbuckler3 is a good place to start for most good TWF builds.
Mitchell 07-27-04, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish If he makes it an elf, then there's an experience point penalty from 6th level on. You can jigger the levels so that it kicks in later, but it'll eventually be a 40% penalty from 16th level on. That is why I suggested a 1/2 elf. You could still access the feat, but wouldn't have any favored class issues. As long as you kept two classes within a level of each other (assuming a triple class build), and if you go with a two class build, you could stretch one out as far from the other as you need to, whether on a long term or short term basis... If you need hit points, take a swashbuckler or ranger level, you need skills, take a rogue or ranger level. It just gives you a little more flexibility when leveling. Roll8dn, I appreciate the offer. The group I play with is... Well, let's just say that I try not to get to invested in a character... There are issues, both in and out of the game, but the DM and his wife want me to play, so I do, for now.
Nick Soapdish 07-27-04, 10:40 PM	Originally posted by Mitchell That is why I suggested a 1/2 elf. You could still access the feat, but wouldn't have any favored class issues. As long as you kept two classes within a level of each other (assuming a triple class build), and if you go with a two class build, you could stretch one out as far from the other as you need to, whether on a long term or short term basis... If you need hit points, take a swashbuckler or ranger level, you need skills, take a rogue or ranger level. It just gives you a little more flexibility when leveling. That's what I figured, but the next post was musing about how it'd be great as an elf.
roll8dn 07-27-04, 11:43 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish If he makes it an elf, then there's an experience point penalty from 6th level on. You can jigger the levels so that it kicks in later, but it'll eventually be a 40% penalty from 16th level on. Ah, thank you fo pointing that out. Too many houseules (highest level in my DM's campaign is the "favored class", no matter the race), so I posted incorrectly. Thanks. Not enough sleep, so I'll be going now...:twitch: